End-level build diversity can only be achieved via objective diversity and / or tactical diversity. I.e. if different game styles (glass canon vs tank, cc, etc..) can achieve the same clearing speed.
^ this.
As long as GR's are the only real end game, diversity will be limited. GR's (or infinitely scaling modes) are fine, as long as they part of a larger end game. Some options for creating build diversity in the game as a whole:
1) Add in other game modes that don't have timers or encourage mobility. Something like defending a Bastions keep from an waves of monsters, where the Keep has a door or something that has life and enemies try to attack it. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to accomplish this goal, that was just for an example.
2) Add in other things (charms, socketables like jewels/runes from D2, crafting mats) that only drop from monsters outside of GRs. This way, GR's are important for leaderboards (if you care about that) and for leg gems, but there is a reason to regular rift or bounty or do some other new game mode as well.
Now you have different objectives (that have different tactical requirements) that influence your builds, creating diversity. Especially since regular rifts and bounties have a ceiling on their difficulty.
Agreed. There are so many possibilities. All of them are trivialized by the dev's obsession for randomization.
Random level generation is fine but there is more to replayability than simply changing the order and frequency in which the mobs appear (which is pretty much what random does).
Imagine if the devs could, *hum*, add a custom-mode for d3 where players could build their maps. Now, that would be a thing.
He is right. Using a skill should not require us to wear a certain item that unlocks its damage. End of story.
and yet wizards have been forced to do just that since RoS launched, because all the damage a wizard can deal comes from set bonuses, only DMO actually augments skills directly to deal more damage, firebird's finery is all about the DoT effect (in 2.4 it is DoT plus an overall dmg buff effect which causes all skills to deal more damage so a bit more broad than targeted skills), tal'rasha's elements is all about the meteors and has very little to do with what skills you use to proc them/provide the buff effect of the 6p, and vyr has no actual damage bonus whatsoever, all the dmg this set does actually comes from the wand/source set from chantodo, which is pathetic, a set that revolves around the wizards most powerful spell to make it even more powerful is a pathetic pile of junk requiring so many key specific items equipped in every slot, there is literally no room to customise what you wear, add to that mechanically the wizard class is stuck with skill mechanics of the archaic "classic" D3 whereby all skills have an element of CC attached to them, or they have so much anti synergy it is laughable, and just sticking them on a gear set is a pathetic joke, and this issue is only going to get worse and worse the longer it goes on, as it is now being shown to affect all classes, i personally want blizz to keep going down this path until it gets to the point where classes almost can't function and any moron with half a brain can tell what the underlying problem is, only then will we see an actual response from the development team, (aka bob and jeff as everyone else was shoved onto overwatch/HOTS), that they are going to fix it with a major overhaul of class skills.
He is right. Using a skill should not require us to wear a certain item that unlocks its damage. End of story.
If this was the argument, I get it.
But Quin argues that because the skill damage is on the item it means you HAVE TO EQUIP IT, which is simply false.
If the helm had 200% WoL damage, it would be a 20% increase to the 1000% bonus from Sunwuko, and a 200% pure damage increase without the proc. It is solid, but it is not a must.
I wonder what kind dps i would do without a dml and yang recurve non standard skillset in a 4 player greater rift, lemme answer that question non because no one is stupid enough to do a greater rift with me with non standard gear setup and skillset.
He is right. Using a skill should not require us to wear a certain item that unlocks its damage. End of story.
If this was the argument, I get it.
But Quin argues that because the skill damage is on the item it means you HAVE TO EQUIP IT, which is simply false.
If the helm had 200% WoL damage, it would be a 20% increase to the 1000% bonus from Sunwuko, and a 200% pure damage increase without the proc. It is solid, but it is not a must.
so what are you saying exactly? that as long as there are a handful of items, and not just precisely 1, that boost a skills damage by a percent, that its OK for the devs to add a few more because us players have a pile of items to choose from?
Don't you think the game can do a bit better than just plop on a skill damage percent every few months?
I'm just using this as an example. I was lucky enough to roll an insanely good Yangs Recurve right at the beginning of the patch, which at the time, made the game feel like the best thing ever. But even if I had not rolled such a great one, the only other competing weapon for the Unhallowed build is a better rolled Yangs and I had already rolled about as good as you can get. So the point is that if that was the build you favoured (unhallowed) You had exactly one weapon choice and the option to cube it was not viable either due to the rcr bonus, further locking it in.
So I don't necessarily think that creating a weapon that has synergy with a specific set is a bad thing, but unlike Natalyas Slayer, Yangs is not a part of the set, and that to me is the real flaw.
In summary, if Blizzard wants to create non set items that are very obviously designed to work with a specific set (regardless of whether they offer some utility in other builds) then they should be made a part of that set. To my mind, this frees up another slot that would otherwise be used for the set, thus build diversity in terms of item choice is maintained.
For the record I think D3 does have a fundamental design flaw which means there will always be one build, or combination of builds in group play that will be demonstrably superior to all others, but that same flaw is also what makes the game fun, and makes it D3. If they addressed that flaw at the root cause, it would be a different game.
I've never personally played a game that has given me more milage than D3, so for all its failings, I have to give the dev team kudos for their continued efforts to upgrade it and keep it interesting to play. Patch after patch, and I've not paid a single cent apart from my initial purchase.
I try to see both points here - i find myself in the middle while Quind does in fact make some points i agree with, and some others i don't.
As some others in here, i see that every patch there is more choice and not less in gearing; unfortunately the more choice is tied to new set and "pre-existing" or "premade" builds to which we need to adhere to have any chance at endgame. I can understand the feeling of players being pidgeonholed into something the Blizzard devs have chosen for us and we can just accept it or don't play it.
Unfortunately for us players, there are two things which are facts and cannot be changed:
- "premade" builds makes both set creation and balancing much easier for devs. Having to balance an big number of legendary combinations is much harder thand looking ate some limited number.
- there is place only for 1 best build and one #1 spot on ladders; choice has no room here, either you run with the best stuff or you're behind - that's the nature of competition.
Given this, however i agree that putting all these "XY% more damage on Z skill" is a very bad approach. We have an already limited degree of choice in D3, and this makes only choices narrower because some items become immediately mandatory to equip. Given also how limited we are in slots and how some items are clearly superior than others, we're really making the choice near to non-existent.
The point is that legendary items should have legendary affixes; not "sostrong they cut down competition" affixes.
Let me do an example:
- xbow #1: your cluster arrow generates double the amounts of grenades/rockets.
- xbow #2: your cluster arrow main hit now has a 15 yard radius
- xbow #3: your cluster arrow now leaves a crater at the point of impact, slowing targets inside the area and dealing X00% weapon damage over 4 seconds (damage type changes based on rune)
Balancing issues apart (just thrown random numbers and stuff there), here's what i expect legendary items to do - to add fancy stuff to my skills and not just change dmaage/coist coeafficients so they become suddendly the best efficient skills i can have on my bar.
The three xbows above all increase the CA damage, but in different ways; the #3 could have laess damage to balance the addition of CC. However i can choose either 2 of the three to have a different combo - all will be damage increases, and if balacing is done well, the damage will be the least stat to look at.
So basically the solution to the issue is to remove those passiove additive bonuses, and make more legedaries that overlap each other, so for these limited number of slots we can have a real choice.
I don't see Blizzard completely destroy and redo current itemization system; but having sets to choose from and for each set a number of items to mix up would be definitely better than now.
So nature of competition is to copy the number 1 ? If the number 1 keeps changing how do i do ? Changing the copy target forever ?
For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
I've never personally played a game that has given me more milage than D3, so for all its failings, I have to give the dev team kudos for their continued efforts to upgrade it and keep it interesting to play. Patch after patch, and I've not paid a single cent apart from my initial purchase.
This game has had a really good longevity with the way that they continue to implement new items /features into the game. WoW did a good job too, but I don't have to pay a monthly rate for this game and I still feel like there are a million things I have not done yet.
There are a few things that I would like to see further improved (ex. solo play), but the game is light years better from where it started and I appreciate the effort that they are putting into making it great.
If they put the extra damage in the orange stat, there would be less choice (since everybody would just put that huge legendary stat in cube).
If they put the extra damage in the skill itself, there would be less choice (since that item wouldn't be used).
All those guys here talk of a choice that's taken away. Fact is, those items have never been used before. Their legendary affix is weak. They will be used now because of that dmg buff. They will not be used exclusively. There will be a choice (if you don't push for the absolute highest possible grift. If you do, there will never be a choice).
The only problem with those new items is that it's simply boring. They brought legendary affixes to make legendaries interesting and powerful and then they fall back into simple +%dmg affixes. They could have done stuff like "WoL does X% more dmg the further away you cast it" to improve the item but keep the idea of its effect. Instead they chose the easy but boring path.
Fundamentally, this is no different than adding XX% damage as far as GR leaderboard goes. It is just cosmetics.
If the best of your three options is the best option overall, then it will become mandatory to any competitive gear.
End-level build diversity can only be achieved via objective diversity and / or tactical diversity. I.e. if different game styles (glass canon vs tank, cc, etc..) can achieve the same clearing speed.
It's not just cosmetics as the way the damage is dealt changes the gameplay - but yes, they're all comparable to XX% damage increases, as they need to be balanced and thus all being an option.
However i agree with you - the fcat that endgame consists in only pushing that higher GR means players have to pdigeonhole in very specific builds/setup and even adding thousands of items the problem isn't removed.
My point was about itemization and not endgame though - more items that change the same skills leaves players with a degree of choices which looks to me better than having +X% skill damage items which are prettly clear you HAVE to equip no matter what.
So nature of competition is to copy the number 1 ? If the number 1 keeps changing how do i do ? Changing the copy target forever ?
For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
Well, isn't this happening already right now?
The structure is always that - some streamers/theorycrafters go on PTR, test stuff out and day of patch release there are multiple build guides.
Then time passes during season, strategies refines and everyone is copying what top ladder players are doing.
There's a reason why nearly everyone was playing monk in season4 (even if Wizards are extremely competitive but no one seems to have noticed it).
The problem with choices is that if they're not balanced and you want to compete for #1, you don't actually have choices. It's like on vanilla/TBC WoW, with players complaining that they couldn't use thei build and do max dps - sorry to burst yout bubble, but math doesn't lie and there is only one spot for the best build.
The fact is that while the best build can be only one, they can still make that all the others are not that far behind so the difference in high GR can be nullified.
So nature of competition is to copy the number 1 ? If the number 1 keeps changing how do i do ? Changing the copy target forever ?
For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
Well, isn't this happening already right now?
The structure is always that - some streamers/theorycrafters go on PTR, test stuff out and day of patch release there are multiple build guides.
Then time passes during season, strategies refines and everyone is copying what top ladder players are doing.
There's a reason why nearly everyone was playing monk in season4 (even if Wizards are extremely competitive but no one seems to have noticed it).
The problem with choices is that if they're not balanced and you want to compete for #1, you don't actually have choices. It's like on vanilla/TBC WoW, with players complaining that they couldn't use thei build and do max dps - sorry to burst yout bubble, but math doesn't lie and there is only one spot for the best build.
The fact is that while the best build can be only one, they can still make that all the others are not that far behind so the difference in high GR can be nullified.
Ok, nice comment about some bubble, it surely hurt my feelings. I know math doesn't lie, and i know what the game looks like mister obvious.
What do you want to achieve as a player in Diablo?
As a casual one I guess you don’t really care which built or item is best for each slot. You bring some friends (or not), you make a built you like and you just enjoy the game for a few hours per week.
If you want to make it to the leaderboards then yes the “choices” are extremely limited and, depending on your class, there will always be a best build. But isn’t like that on most games/ cases if you want to be a top player?
Of course there is another player category in-between these two (like me) that have no idea what we’re doing in Diablo J on one hand cheating on the other hand working it seems impossible to enter the leaderboards with ~2 hours per day. We’re following the streamers, putting some personal touches in our builds but still due to the paragon level “situation” we are seriously struggling to get into the leaderboards.
But the problem Quin69 is mentioning, taking account only the way he is playing Diablo, is a result of how Blizzard treats the game and the people playing it. I get the feeling that patch after patch the game just gets easier and easier, probably with the intention to attract more people. I don’t think that it’s necessary to provide any proof to the community that since you reach level 70 investing 10 hours or so can give you the opportunity to have almost any set for your character and a few ancient items as well.
So if an item is overpowered (OP is the term right?) or not why does it matter? If the choice on a particular slot is one item or ten items since it’s SO easy to loot everything what’s really the problem? The fact that the item is OP(?), the fact that farming is so easy (?) or both?
Diversity (in general and not only for items) in the game should come from various sources rather than the fact that some items may be OP for a particular set/ skill etc. Diversity is not something that can be achieved by doing only this or only that but it comes from a collection of choices a player/ character should have in almost every aspect of the game (attributes, classes, skills, items, cubes, runes, leveling etc). Blizzard at the time being is just giving us the illusion of choice while making the game so much easier and indeed with limited diversity.
And I’m not sure that Blizzard wants to go down that road (or even a lot of players for that matter).
Even if u does not look the leaderboars, if u play slowly a full year you will end up the same path. But u got it, free skillz and item dmg dependant made it.
Quin's point is a good one, but I agree with other posters in that this has been a "problem" in Diablo since Reaper launched. Most players won't do any testing or theorycrafting themselves, they'll just look on the LB's and copy whatever build is out there. Build diversity is a myth, and for the most part doesn't exist. If you want to compete on the LB's you do one of the following:
Farm all the time and copy someone's pushing build, to get a gear and paragon advantage
Iterate new builds over and over, hoping to find something better than current meta.
How many people do you REALLY think are iterating new builds to compete on the LB's? Based on what the LB's look like right now...not very many. The top clears are almost all the exact same build.
If you aren't looking at the LB's, and you're just playing because you think it's a fun game to play, build diversity has always existed because you're only competing with yourself. You play what's fun with the combination of items you've found. These updates don't change that, they only make you excited (for seasonal players) to find your first Ancient Tzo Krin's if you want to play LoN Wave of Light. And every Tzo Krin's you find is possibly an upgrade until you find the "perfect" one.
Only problem from following Quin is if he missed something during testing like static charge monk. And even then his personality makes him so enthousiastic and view hungry that he will make a video about it. Which cost us 5 mins time, instead of hours and hours of testing.
I have total respect for theorycrafters, but usely it ends up the same way for those guys, they make something amazing. And the one who copies it gets the credit for it. I would be amazed if someone even know the name of the chinese guy who made that epic discovery.
People like Quin also use it as a way to boost viewership to their stream, which is a source of income for them. You can think of theorycrafting as R&D time for them on things that will help them make content and go up the leaderboards. Those things (and personality) are the things that attract people to subscribe to his stream.
I agree that it would be nice to know the name of the person who first discovers on those new kinds of builds. That might encourage more people to do theorycrafting.
Wyatt Cheng replies to Quin on Reddit...and says exactly what I said on here a few days ago...Blizzard have to cater for all play types, casual as well as end game and the rant from Quin only really affects the very end game...of which the % of D3 players never get to.
Could you throw me a link to that post or is it what's said in the diablofans news today? It might only effect the very endgame but I still think it is the wrong way to go. I want to pick the helm which makes my kicks toss around fireballs because of that very mechanic, not because the item in it self have an affix which increase my kicks damage.
@The Zeph: Here is the post by Mr. Cheng (copy pasted from reddit):
"I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much.
Design is about tradeoffs, and we wouldn't do it if we there aren't upsides as well.
Furycrab correctly identified some of the issue here.
What we've done is sacrifice some illusion of choice for real choice. While this is a bad trade-off for some (particularly cutting edge explorers), it is a win for many others.
If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration. Let's use Fury of the Vanished Peak as an example. Maybe it's at a certain spot in IK builds. Yes, we could shift some numbers out of the item and into the base skill, but how does that affect Might of the Earth builds? Legacy of Nightmares builds (for which there are innumerable configurations)? Pushed far enough what if it was a huge buff to Raekor builds? Now don't get me wrong - having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer". There are innumerable ripple effects and if any one of those ripples ends up disrupting the status quo then it becomes the new standard by which every other class/build is judged.
Another downside of simply buffing base skills rather than pushing the power into legendaries is the effect it has on the level up game. How does the game play in all yellow items during the 1-70 experience - new players are entering the Diablo community every day. (and some of them post here in /r/Diablo to talk about what a great time they're having!). We can't have Wave of Light doing 3x as much damage as every other skill during that period.
The reality is that sometimes a +% on a skill is the only way to get a skill where it needs to be competitive at the upper tiers of play without disrupting the existing ecosystem. The choice for us becomes use a +% skill on an item or allow to skill to simply go completely unused for end game players.
Patch 2.4 is looking to have more viable builds than any patch to date. The team is really excited about this and we hope all of you are too."
Here is the post by Furycrab, which was referenced by Wyatt (copy pasted from reddit):
"Can we just talk about one thing though... There's choice, and then there's illusion of choice.
Take the Helm Quin talks about in his video. If you have the ability to take off that helm, then you would just itemize in a number of ways to get the damage elsewhere and you would never end up picking that helm for the "utility". That's not Blizzard taking away a choice, it's just making the choice different. There might be an illusion of choice to newer players, but once you figure out the right combination, there isn't really any choice there to begin with...
Blizzard is likely trying to introduce new skills being used, but they are likely trying to avoid builds mixing into some uber build that forces them to nerf something across all build. Making it so that if you want to make a really killer build for say... Lashing Tail Kick... Well that same build doesn't also do the craziest EP damage, or the fastest generator damage...
If they have some restrictions on what builds can equip, they have more liberty to tweak all of the different builds to be in the same ballpark of damage.
The end result can end up giving more "real choices" in terms of different builds that work, but eliminate a lot of false choices."
Here is my opinion on the topic:
Right now Quin is right, but in the long term the current situation adopted by the design team is the better one. When they introduce more items with skill damage bonus to the same skill competing with each other the players will have more choices.
Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.
OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
As you examine this idea that the things you hope to capitalize on change from moment to moment, you see that these games "run themselves", and they surge forward and remain popular and develop into professional past times. and they command floorspace at conventions for intrigued players and audience members. You can see where D3 falls short.
D3 has no "eureka" moments. you just plod forward like a fucking moron searching for green percentages instead of red ones, delivered in the most boring way possible. Trifecta or +damage. I'd know I was that fucking moron and I will be that moron again when the patch finally hits. I'll play the game for a bit and realize its just more of the same. its as satisfying as sucking the salt of a chicken mcnugget and throwing it away.
Wyatt Cheng fails to see the bigger picture.
Here is a quote from his write up:
---------------------
"I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much."
----------------------
So Wyatt understands that finding and choosing a piece with more damage automatically reduces the average appeal of all other items in the game for a player. Then he says this:
----------------------------
If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration.
----------------------------
What he is doing is alluding to one specific suggestion of Quins, shifting damage off of individual items and placing them on skills.
Then his is pointing out a flaw laced within that niche solution and using the flaw to ignore the ENTIRE basis of the fucking complaint.
THEN HE JUSTIFIES THIS IDIOTIC SHUTDOWN BY SAYING THIS:
Having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
this is the part everyone needs to pay attention to. Wyatt Cheng said this. here I'll quote it a few times so its painfully clear.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
Yep. And that's exactly the issue that Quin was trying to point out in his video
and exactly what many MANY have said in the Official general discussion forum for years.
and exactly what should have been mined from the players feed back before the fucking game was released. especially when its the other games from their stable that taught us this concept of "no best build"
When a THING is better than the rest of your THINGS.........you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
I've read his post over and over and over again.
I've studied the sentences and thought heavily on how the weapons and the builds interact as he wanders around Raekors and the Fury of the Vanquished Peak weapon and try as I might its nothing more than a laughably shallow and worthless deflection of the bigger issue that they refuse to acknowledge.
When players see bigger damage, they grab it and everything else in that moment and forever forward, is obsolete. It's a plague of a disease that destroys the potential of Diablo 3, while a laundry list of other games are virtually immune. and they're being created just down the fucking hallway.
Every blue post is the same, just little buzzwords meant to invoke a sense of compassion in the heart of the angry critic.
And thanks for letting us swear on this forum, its very refreshing.
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Random level generation is fine but there is more to replayability than simply changing the order and frequency in which the mobs appear (which is pretty much what random does).
Imagine if the devs could, *hum*, add a custom-mode for d3 where players could build their maps. Now, that would be a thing.
He is right. Using a skill should not require us to wear a certain item that unlocks its damage. End of story.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
But Quin argues that because the skill damage is on the item it means you HAVE TO EQUIP IT, which is simply false.
If the helm had 200% WoL damage, it would be a 20% increase to the 1000% bonus from Sunwuko, and a 200% pure damage increase without the proc. It is solid, but it is not a must.
I wonder what kind dps i would do without a dml and yang recurve non standard skillset in a 4 player greater rift, lemme answer that question non because no one is stupid enough to do a greater rift with me with non standard gear setup and skillset.
Don't you think the game can do a bit better than just plop on a skill damage percent every few months?
I'm just using this as an example. I was lucky enough to roll an insanely good Yangs Recurve right at the beginning of the patch, which at the time, made the game feel like the best thing ever. But even if I had not rolled such a great one, the only other competing weapon for the Unhallowed build is a better rolled Yangs and I had already rolled about as good as you can get. So the point is that if that was the build you favoured (unhallowed) You had exactly one weapon choice and the option to cube it was not viable either due to the rcr bonus, further locking it in.
So I don't necessarily think that creating a weapon that has synergy with a specific set is a bad thing, but unlike Natalyas Slayer, Yangs is not a part of the set, and that to me is the real flaw.
In summary, if Blizzard wants to create non set items that are very obviously designed to work with a specific set (regardless of whether they offer some utility in other builds) then they should be made a part of that set. To my mind, this frees up another slot that would otherwise be used for the set, thus build diversity in terms of item choice is maintained.
For the record I think D3 does have a fundamental design flaw which means there will always be one build, or combination of builds in group play that will be demonstrably superior to all others, but that same flaw is also what makes the game fun, and makes it D3. If they addressed that flaw at the root cause, it would be a different game.
I've never personally played a game that has given me more milage than D3, so for all its failings, I have to give the dev team kudos for their continued efforts to upgrade it and keep it interesting to play. Patch after patch, and I've not paid a single cent apart from my initial purchase.
For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
There are a few things that I would like to see further improved (ex. solo play), but the game is light years better from where it started and I appreciate the effort that they are putting into making it great.
However i agree with you - the fcat that endgame consists in only pushing that higher GR means players have to pdigeonhole in very specific builds/setup and even adding thousands of items the problem isn't removed.
My point was about itemization and not endgame though - more items that change the same skills leaves players with a degree of choices which looks to me better than having +X% skill damage items which are prettly clear you HAVE to equip no matter what.
The structure is always that - some streamers/theorycrafters go on PTR, test stuff out and day of patch release there are multiple build guides.
Then time passes during season, strategies refines and everyone is copying what top ladder players are doing.
There's a reason why nearly everyone was playing monk in season4 (even if Wizards are extremely competitive but no one seems to have noticed it).
The problem with choices is that if they're not balanced and you want to compete for #1, you don't actually have choices. It's like on vanilla/TBC WoW, with players complaining that they couldn't use thei build and do max dps - sorry to burst yout bubble, but math doesn't lie and there is only one spot for the best build.
The fact is that while the best build can be only one, they can still make that all the others are not that far behind so the difference in high GR can be nullified.
Quin's point is a good one, but I agree with other posters in that this has been a "problem" in Diablo since Reaper launched. Most players won't do any testing or theorycrafting themselves, they'll just look on the LB's and copy whatever build is out there. Build diversity is a myth, and for the most part doesn't exist. If you want to compete on the LB's you do one of the following:
How many people do you REALLY think are iterating new builds to compete on the LB's? Based on what the LB's look like right now...not very many. The top clears are almost all the exact same build.
If you aren't looking at the LB's, and you're just playing because you think it's a fun game to play, build diversity has always existed because you're only competing with yourself. You play what's fun with the combination of items you've found. These updates don't change that, they only make you excited (for seasonal players) to find your first Ancient Tzo Krin's if you want to play LoN Wave of Light. And every Tzo Krin's you find is possibly an upgrade until you find the "perfect" one.
I want to be your dear friend.
I agree that it would be nice to know the name of the person who first discovers on those new kinds of builds. That might encourage more people to do theorycrafting.
@The Zeph: Here is the post by Mr. Cheng (copy pasted from reddit):
"I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much.
Design is about tradeoffs, and we wouldn't do it if we there aren't upsides as well.
Furycrab correctly identified some of the issue here.
What we've done is sacrifice some illusion of choice for real choice. While this is a bad trade-off for some (particularly cutting edge explorers), it is a win for many others.
If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration. Let's use Fury of the Vanished Peak as an example. Maybe it's at a certain spot in IK builds. Yes, we could shift some numbers out of the item and into the base skill, but how does that affect Might of the Earth builds? Legacy of Nightmares builds (for which there are innumerable configurations)? Pushed far enough what if it was a huge buff to Raekor builds? Now don't get me wrong - having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer". There are innumerable ripple effects and if any one of those ripples ends up disrupting the status quo then it becomes the new standard by which every other class/build is judged.
Another downside of simply buffing base skills rather than pushing the power into legendaries is the effect it has on the level up game. How does the game play in all yellow items during the 1-70 experience - new players are entering the Diablo community every day. (and some of them post here in /r/Diablo to talk about what a great time they're having!). We can't have Wave of Light doing 3x as much damage as every other skill during that period.
The reality is that sometimes a +% on a skill is the only way to get a skill where it needs to be competitive at the upper tiers of play without disrupting the existing ecosystem. The choice for us becomes use a +% skill on an item or allow to skill to simply go completely unused for end game players.
Patch 2.4 is looking to have more viable builds than any patch to date. The team is really excited about this and we hope all of you are too."
Here is the post by Furycrab, which was referenced by Wyatt (copy pasted from reddit):
"Can we just talk about one thing though... There's choice, and then there's illusion of choice.
Take the Helm Quin talks about in his video. If you have the ability to take off that helm, then you would just itemize in a number of ways to get the damage elsewhere and you would never end up picking that helm for the "utility". That's not Blizzard taking away a choice, it's just making the choice different. There might be an illusion of choice to newer players, but once you figure out the right combination, there isn't really any choice there to begin with...
Blizzard is likely trying to introduce new skills being used, but they are likely trying to avoid builds mixing into some uber build that forces them to nerf something across all build. Making it so that if you want to make a really killer build for say... Lashing Tail Kick... Well that same build doesn't also do the craziest EP damage, or the fastest generator damage...
If they have some restrictions on what builds can equip, they have more liberty to tweak all of the different builds to be in the same ballpark of damage.
The end result can end up giving more "real choices" in terms of different builds that work, but eliminate a lot of false choices."
Here is my opinion on the topic:
Right now Quin is right, but in the long term the current situation adopted by the design team is the better one. When they introduce more items with skill damage bonus to the same skill competing with each other the players will have more choices.
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
As you examine this idea that the things you hope to capitalize on change from moment to moment, you see that these games "run themselves", and they surge forward and remain popular and develop into professional past times. and they command floorspace at conventions for intrigued players and audience members. You can see where D3 falls short.
D3 has no "eureka" moments. you just plod forward like a fucking moron searching for green percentages instead of red ones, delivered in the most boring way possible. Trifecta or +damage. I'd know I was that fucking moron and I will be that moron again when the patch finally hits. I'll play the game for a bit and realize its just more of the same. its as satisfying as sucking the salt of a chicken mcnugget and throwing it away.
Wyatt Cheng fails to see the bigger picture.
Here is a quote from his write up:
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"I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much."
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So Wyatt understands that finding and choosing a piece with more damage automatically reduces the average appeal of all other items in the game for a player. Then he says this:
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If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration.
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What he is doing is alluding to one specific suggestion of Quins, shifting damage off of individual items and placing them on skills.
Then his is pointing out a flaw laced within that niche solution and using the flaw to ignore the ENTIRE basis of the fucking complaint.
THEN HE JUSTIFIES THIS IDIOTIC SHUTDOWN BY SAYING THIS:
Having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
this is the part everyone needs to pay attention to. Wyatt Cheng said this. here I'll quote it a few times so its painfully clear.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
Yep. And that's exactly the issue that Quin was trying to point out in his video
and exactly what many MANY have said in the Official general discussion forum for years.
and exactly what should have been mined from the players feed back before the fucking game was released. especially when its the other games from their stable that taught us this concept of "no best build"
When a THING is better than the rest of your THINGS.........you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
I've read his post over and over and over again.
I've studied the sentences and thought heavily on how the weapons and the builds interact as he wanders around Raekors and the Fury of the Vanquished Peak weapon and try as I might its nothing more than a laughably shallow and worthless deflection of the bigger issue that they refuse to acknowledge.
When players see bigger damage, they grab it and everything else in that moment and forever forward, is obsolete. It's a plague of a disease that destroys the potential of Diablo 3, while a laundry list of other games are virtually immune. and they're being created just down the fucking hallway.
Every blue post is the same, just little buzzwords meant to invoke a sense of compassion in the heart of the angry critic.
And thanks for letting us swear on this forum, its very refreshing.