I think the wiz bar will work something like wow's energy (rogue class).
It start at full potential (unlike barbs rage) and recover very fast (unlike Wd mana). This way she can blast everything up without concern of running out of resources. However she will pass some seconds with no mana, so shes vulnerable during that time.
Maybe she will get some skills that requires no energy at all.
I feel that they should have to build up with that spirit crap. Its so pointless building up with crap spells. It should be that the wizard has a pool, and i think someone got it here dont remember who sorry, and when you use a skill it has a range of mana usage or whatever she has engery being my most preffered name for it. And if they stick to the books it wont be a build up cause in the books you lose energy whenever you use a spell and you always have it not a build up then loss. But with this theory it's that the skill will do 10 damage or you know a range of attacks say 10-20. sometimes it will do 10 for 15 mana 12 for 10 mana 20 for 30 mana and 20 for 16 mana. Mking it unpredictable how much you will actually lose, and nt so that the more mana you waste the more damage you do it could be random even though you only did 10 you could waste 30. That in my mind would be a better suit, bcuase if the wizard "overworks" herlself conjuring up the skill it should take more mana out of her.
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Most of these ideas are too complex. In a fast paced game you don't have Enugu time to strategize that much. They even had to fix the simple fury ball mchanic of the barb because it was to hard to read during fights. If I'm fighting 20 fallen I don't want to have to think about any sort of build up of skills. I just want to unleash my power.
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Whats too complicated to say, instead of using your power, and the stronger, the more it takes away, using your power, and the less you have the weaker you cast, and the more you gain and controlm, the stronger you can do?
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Building up with "crap" (not really crappy, just weaker than the uber devastating AOE spells) spells is not a bad idea if you have a natural regeneration that increases as you stay away from combat.
Blizzard has stated they want you to be in the action 24/7 so that would not work at all sitting out of combat and just waiting. I especially hate jsut waiting for my bars to regen so pointless and a waste of time.
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Exxactly, so weather its weaker or stronger attacks, your meant ot be able to continue battling. Relentlessly if you wish, but heres the point. To do that, each attack must give you some of your form of energy either way, or you could not continue combat.
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i just want MANA back, please... is that toooo hard? just bring mana back for everyone, it was so nice to see in Barbarian+WD gameplay with the Mana Globes with different colors and fx! i was so glad to see that, it looked great, simple, straigh! and its diablo basic stuff... why change??? custumization? making chars more unique...oh ye... great! almost forgot...
That would be good too, all for one and one for all, everyone drink up! Fill your goblet o' mana! But I dont think blizz will. Thereve put themselves too much in to the different energy as fa as we know yet.
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That would be good too, all for one and one for all, everyone drink up! Fill your goblet o' mana! But I dont think blizz will. Thereve put themselves too much in to the different energy as fa as we know yet.
ye, i mean, i got no expectations about it u know... also dont belive they will comeback with simple mana for everyone... but for me, it just wont look so diablo few anymore, slowly and slowly it begeins to lose that classic feeling...
i understand that are trying really really hard to make a better game, awesome gameplay feel, unique art, unique chars, custumization at its maximum... but i dont know... i just would like buy D3 box in a store, go home, put it on, choose my char, start a new game, and then see the classic Life Orb/Mana Orb on there spot, and everything suddenly (even tho they've changed the whole game, the whole mechanics...) feels just right at the end of the day... and its just about getting used to it, as we did after going from D1 to D2...
I do kind of think this whole mana thing is unnecessary. Nox had a weak wizard who'd die from pretty much everything who could also kill pretty much everything. He used mana and got mana from mana crystals (a mechanic Blizzard never bothered to look into), had a lot of it. That seemed quite fine as far as glass cannon goes, no special mana type required.
I don't understand why WD got mana, also. I was thinking something along the game Sacrifice, actually. That whole mechanic with souls was funny... but if someone was to have modified stuff it'd be WD, and Wizard would use normal slow regenerating mana.
Wizard getting harmed by spells is out of the line for me. Starts to sound like what they did to the fire wizard in WAR and I don't like that.
Just give her a lot of int, no armor, and cool spells, and get done with it. The fact that spells need you to stop to be cast is enough to put her in a nasty position.
Just look at the Sorceress in D2 and tell me that her mana is fine? It runs dry way too easily, at which point you can do absolutely -nothing-. Otherwise, just make sure to carry around a lot of potions and you'll never run out. What kind of energy source is that? A very, very pointless one.
Just look at the Sorceress in D2 and tell me that her mana is fine? It runs dry way too easily, at which point you can do absolutely -nothing-. Otherwise, just make sure to carry around a lot of potions and you'll never run out. What kind of energy source is that? A very, very pointless one.
And... that's why Nox added mana crystals.
I am not really sure what Blizzard wants to do with the wizard right now. If it's a glass cannon, considering how it's impossible to avoid getting hit in Diablo, AND we no longer have the ability (I hope) to give our wizard a shitload of health and ridiculous chance to block, I'd see the DIII wizard getting closer to the Nox wizard. Essentially, forced to cast protective or empowering spells all the time to compensate for basic weakness.
Also in Nox, mana regen sucks and pretty much doesn't exist. Cast a few protective spells and you're done. In Diablo III, medium mana regen probably won't be enough, too (see sorc without amazing items)... ultra mana regen will just make it OP. The wizard should be not allowed to spam nonstop. What I see them doing is making the mana orbs more viable for the wizard, essentially forcing them to get into nasty situations to get more of that mana and give them a much bigger boost than other casters will have. They already have some skills that make health globes useful for mana and skills that improve mana gain from mana globes I think... I think that's where people should be looking.
Mana orbs are a bit more awkward than crystals are, though, because they don't always appear, don't always appear in places where they should be, and I could see it getting really ugly for the wizard if they essentially run out of mana before getting a mana orb in a place that they can get to it without getting killed. And for a wizard no mana should mean death. I've seen this happen in numerous other games, in fact, it's hard to avoid without amazing balancing.
But another thing is that whole melee tree the wizard has. All that is much more appropriate for a hybrid class (see Monk) rather than a magic-based class. And since melee people are closer to enemies they'll be able to get mana orbs easier. Supposedly, they'll also damage more. Wonder how they'll balance all that.
I think they will steal my idea of casting a few weak spells so you can cast a strong spell...
Like... Tik - Tik - Tik - BOOM xD
The other games I've seen that have this implemented usually end up with very repetitive strategies... the minor pre-cast spells become useless and serve no other purpose but to charge the mage up, and every time the mage just casts them without thinking. Why have tik tik boom when you can just have boom, it's pointless and the only thing it does is maybe slow the output of spells that the mage has and I think I'd rather have cooldowns or lack of mana. Honestly, the slowness does not make the mage weaker in any way in this instance.
Not if it's done right (not looking at Diablo here).
Essentially you choose spells depending on the situation and plan the input-output of mana accordingly...
Quote from "emilemil1" »
One skill when your mana is high, another when your mana is low, what is the difference?
Why would you cast "another" when mana is low? You cast what's viable. If it's not viable, you get more mana (potions, globes, whatever is it that gains mana), not waste it on something that will give you nothing, unless that something is a "run off" tactic aka teleport. So your comparison here is improper.
As long as it is simple it is going to be relatively easy to balance.
I wouldn't call Fury simple. But it would work because Barb's basic raw non-spell damage is usually significantly high + barb can probably have a few free spells that don't require any mana/fury/w/e. It's kind of normal for barbs, they're less spell-oriented which is why I don't at all mind their mechanic. In fact, it makes a lot more sense than to force the barb to bother with regenerating stuff.
Quote from "emilemil1" »
I find mana to be "helluva boring" after using it in countless games for many many years, I want something new.
I am going to remind you that "mana" is just a name and has been implemented in countless games in many different ways (Sacrifice, heXen, Kult, for instance). Similarly, changing "mana" to "spirit" and not really adding any gameplay changes won't stop it from being mana.
Blizzard's management of mana recharge is what made it boring, not the mana itself. They limited it to potions, regen, and mana leech and that made it stupid, has nothing to do with the basic mechanic of mana recharge. Mana could have 0 recharge and still not be boring, it's a matter of outside mechanics also. They added orbs now, and that can change a lot. Getting orbs is essentially similar to getting ammo in FPS games, and I don't remember anyone in FPS games saying that ammo is boring.
Quote from "emilemil1" »
Rage, or Fury, is not mana, it is based on your damage output and input, it is balanced, and it is not boring. Why not just transfer that system to the Wizard and remove the damage input?
Maybe because it doesn't make much sense? Wizard is not barb, you can't just transfer the mechanic over and expect it magically to work. First of all, why copy the barb? If you do insist on giving a different mechanic to each class, bother to make it truly different. Second of all, how's the basic spell going to be cast, the wizard can't just whack someone on the head with a stick. 0-cost spells or something? This means the wizard has a starter period of not casting anything too useful, while they also do not have protection, do not have health, do not have high basic damage, do not, really, have anything that barb has until they start casting if the term "glass cannon" was used properly. Yes, they can probably kill fallens but what if you're in a situation where you're meeting some really big enemies or you ran out of mana on accident while fighting a boss? And, if they do it right this time around, he'll just kill you now?
If wizard doesn't lose mana over time then we go in the opposite direction, they're gaining an advantage over other classes (barb included) because they essentially have a sped up regen without any penalties (need to put themselves in nasty situations, keep fighting, etc.). Not to mention that the wizard is generally ranged. A barb suffers from not fighting, which counterbalances the fast increase of fury from fighting. Wizard? They can easily keep that supply of mana high if they just keep casting free spells, and free-spell-spam is not uncommon in games that permit it. They usually can't be completely useless since you need to let the wizard recharge somehow. I could see already them becoming the main spell a wizard uses all the time. I could also see it getting boring really fast. Cast ray of frost 10x times then cast blizzard then cast ray of frost 10x times than cast blizzard again and so on. Cast ray of frost [assume this is a 0-cost spell) at all times that you don't need to cast anything better, and keep a constant supply of protective spells from little weak monsters. It's not a fun mechanic and never was. Essentially you just cast these free spells all the time while otherwise not changing your behavior at all. You'd usually cast storm shield-blizzard-spectral blade now you'll cast rof-rof-rof-rof-storm-shield-rof-rof-rof-rof-rof-rof-blizzard-rof-rof-spectral blade. Seen this before. Yay for variety. Except now you don't need to run to orbs, don't need to drink potions, nor wait. Which makes it OP automatically.
You don't want to put yourself into a trap with mana management, and damage-based mana recharge for a caster is just that kind of trap. It's probably balanceable but that's not going to happen.
Thats the thing. We wont know whats going to happen untill it is revealed, all we have is speculation, and its different person-to-person. Blizzard is known for doing one of two things. One: Making us all fell stupid when that aspects final outlook is revealed, because we dont know why we didnt get it, it was so easy, or Two: making it the least thing most expected as a whole, no matter how crazy or wierd, the last thing we expected.
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@emilemil1
Well, I wrote a huge post again so I deleted it and I'm just going to write this:
There are two things that most pure casters seem to have in common:
1. A standard caster has a big pool of mana, and after they cast it out they need to recharge it either by waiting, drinking potions, approaching mana crystals, killing themselves, killing their minions, killing their enemies (globes), or picking up mana ammo.
2. A standard caster is also super weak and requires some combination of the following to survive: magic shields (stoneskin), minions (WD), counterspells (end another's spell or cast it back), space control spells (slow time), crowd control spells (slow), self-improvement spells (haste).
The wizard seems to be OK with 2 since if we look at blizzcon data I believe the wizard has tons of protective stuff. I am also going to assume they will need it since it's there. But, when we take your idea, it doesn't fit 1 at all. The closest requirement your wizard has to mana recharge is killing enemies except it's already on top of the preexisting mana globes and can be acquired remotely rather than actually approaching and picking up the mana globes.
So what we have is a barb that constnatly needs to put himself in danger and a WD who needs to pick up the globes and hope his minions won't die on him when he's out of mana like it sometimes happened to necro. Then we have a wizard that can just recharge mana by casting spells. Fine, they may have a slower regen but I'm sure their mana gain from casting will be greater than WD's default regen.
That feels very OP to me. Essentially, a basic wizard does not need to do anything endangering to gain mana compared to the other classes. They have the advantage of the "infinite ranged" archetype that was actually true for the D1 rogue which could, well, kill everything while the durability lasted, and was the class that could beat the game while starting in nightmare even tho it was not really viable with warrior due to health issues or sorc due to mana issues.
You can take this wizard, remove mana, and replace everything with cooldowns. You'll get pretty much the same thing. So you'll just be casting the no-cooldown spell while the other spells cool down, and casting one spell will affect the cooldowns on all others.
What scares me more is that I could still see Blizzard implement this and crack their heads over trying to balance the unbalanceable.
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It start at full potential (unlike barbs rage) and recover very fast (unlike Wd mana). This way she can blast everything up without concern of running out of resources. However she will pass some seconds with no mana, so shes vulnerable during that time.
Maybe she will get some skills that requires no energy at all.
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ye, i mean, i got no expectations about it u know... also dont belive they will comeback with simple mana for everyone... but for me, it just wont look so diablo few anymore, slowly and slowly it begeins to lose that classic feeling...
i understand that are trying really really hard to make a better game, awesome gameplay feel, unique art, unique chars, custumization at its maximum... but i dont know... i just would like buy D3 box in a store, go home, put it on, choose my char, start a new game, and then see the classic Life Orb/Mana Orb on there spot, and everything suddenly (even tho they've changed the whole game, the whole mechanics...) feels just right at the end of the day... and its just about getting used to it, as we did after going from D1 to D2...
I don't understand why WD got mana, also. I was thinking something along the game Sacrifice, actually. That whole mechanic with souls was funny... but if someone was to have modified stuff it'd be WD, and Wizard would use normal slow regenerating mana.
Wizard getting harmed by spells is out of the line for me. Starts to sound like what they did to the fire wizard in WAR and I don't like that.
Just give her a lot of int, no armor, and cool spells, and get done with it. The fact that spells need you to stop to be cast is enough to put her in a nasty position.
I am not really sure what Blizzard wants to do with the wizard right now. If it's a glass cannon, considering how it's impossible to avoid getting hit in Diablo, AND we no longer have the ability (I hope) to give our wizard a shitload of health and ridiculous chance to block, I'd see the DIII wizard getting closer to the Nox wizard. Essentially, forced to cast protective or empowering spells all the time to compensate for basic weakness.
Also in Nox, mana regen sucks and pretty much doesn't exist. Cast a few protective spells and you're done. In Diablo III, medium mana regen probably won't be enough, too (see sorc without amazing items)... ultra mana regen will just make it OP. The wizard should be not allowed to spam nonstop. What I see them doing is making the mana orbs more viable for the wizard, essentially forcing them to get into nasty situations to get more of that mana and give them a much bigger boost than other casters will have. They already have some skills that make health globes useful for mana and skills that improve mana gain from mana globes I think... I think that's where people should be looking.
Mana orbs are a bit more awkward than crystals are, though, because they don't always appear, don't always appear in places where they should be, and I could see it getting really ugly for the wizard if they essentially run out of mana before getting a mana orb in a place that they can get to it without getting killed. And for a wizard no mana should mean death. I've seen this happen in numerous other games, in fact, it's hard to avoid without amazing balancing.
But another thing is that whole melee tree the wizard has. All that is much more appropriate for a hybrid class (see Monk) rather than a magic-based class. And since melee people are closer to enemies they'll be able to get mana orbs easier. Supposedly, they'll also damage more. Wonder how they'll balance all that.
I think they will steal my idea of casting a few weak spells so you can cast a strong spell...
Like... Tik - Tik - Tik - BOOM xD
Essentially you choose spells depending on the situation and plan the input-output of mana accordingly...
Why would you cast "another" when mana is low? You cast what's viable. If it's not viable, you get more mana (potions, globes, whatever is it that gains mana), not waste it on something that will give you nothing, unless that something is a "run off" tactic aka teleport. So your comparison here is improper.
You can make it on any system you want, the question is, is it going to be easy enough to balance and is it not going to be helluva boring.
I am going to remind you that "mana" is just a name and has been implemented in countless games in many different ways (Sacrifice, heXen, Kult, for instance). Similarly, changing "mana" to "spirit" and not really adding any gameplay changes won't stop it from being mana.
Blizzard's management of mana recharge is what made it boring, not the mana itself. They limited it to potions, regen, and mana leech and that made it stupid, has nothing to do with the basic mechanic of mana recharge. Mana could have 0 recharge and still not be boring, it's a matter of outside mechanics also. They added orbs now, and that can change a lot. Getting orbs is essentially similar to getting ammo in FPS games, and I don't remember anyone in FPS games saying that ammo is boring.
Maybe because it doesn't make much sense? Wizard is not barb, you can't just transfer the mechanic over and expect it magically to work. First of all, why copy the barb? If you do insist on giving a different mechanic to each class, bother to make it truly different. Second of all, how's the basic spell going to be cast, the wizard can't just whack someone on the head with a stick. 0-cost spells or something? This means the wizard has a starter period of not casting anything too useful, while they also do not have protection, do not have health, do not have high basic damage, do not, really, have anything that barb has until they start casting if the term "glass cannon" was used properly. Yes, they can probably kill fallens but what if you're in a situation where you're meeting some really big enemies or you ran out of mana on accident while fighting a boss? And, if they do it right this time around, he'll just kill you now?
If wizard doesn't lose mana over time then we go in the opposite direction, they're gaining an advantage over other classes (barb included) because they essentially have a sped up regen without any penalties (need to put themselves in nasty situations, keep fighting, etc.). Not to mention that the wizard is generally ranged. A barb suffers from not fighting, which counterbalances the fast increase of fury from fighting. Wizard? They can easily keep that supply of mana high if they just keep casting free spells, and free-spell-spam is not uncommon in games that permit it. They usually can't be completely useless since you need to let the wizard recharge somehow. I could see already them becoming the main spell a wizard uses all the time. I could also see it getting boring really fast. Cast ray of frost 10x times then cast blizzard then cast ray of frost 10x times than cast blizzard again and so on. Cast ray of frost [assume this is a 0-cost spell) at all times that you don't need to cast anything better, and keep a constant supply of protective spells from little weak monsters. It's not a fun mechanic and never was. Essentially you just cast these free spells all the time while otherwise not changing your behavior at all. You'd usually cast storm shield-blizzard-spectral blade now you'll cast rof-rof-rof-rof-storm-shield-rof-rof-rof-rof-rof-rof-blizzard-rof-rof-spectral blade. Seen this before. Yay for variety. Except now you don't need to run to orbs, don't need to drink potions, nor wait. Which makes it OP automatically.
You don't want to put yourself into a trap with mana management, and damage-based mana recharge for a caster is just that kind of trap. It's probably balanceable but that's not going to happen.
Well, I wrote a huge post again so I deleted it and I'm just going to write this:
There are two things that most pure casters seem to have in common:
1. A standard caster has a big pool of mana, and after they cast it out they need to recharge it either by waiting, drinking potions, approaching mana crystals, killing themselves, killing their minions, killing their enemies (globes), or picking up mana ammo.
2. A standard caster is also super weak and requires some combination of the following to survive: magic shields (stoneskin), minions (WD), counterspells (end another's spell or cast it back), space control spells (slow time), crowd control spells (slow), self-improvement spells (haste).
The wizard seems to be OK with 2 since if we look at blizzcon data I believe the wizard has tons of protective stuff. I am also going to assume they will need it since it's there. But, when we take your idea, it doesn't fit 1 at all. The closest requirement your wizard has to mana recharge is killing enemies except it's already on top of the preexisting mana globes and can be acquired remotely rather than actually approaching and picking up the mana globes.
So what we have is a barb that constnatly needs to put himself in danger and a WD who needs to pick up the globes and hope his minions won't die on him when he's out of mana like it sometimes happened to necro. Then we have a wizard that can just recharge mana by casting spells. Fine, they may have a slower regen but I'm sure their mana gain from casting will be greater than WD's default regen.
That feels very OP to me. Essentially, a basic wizard does not need to do anything endangering to gain mana compared to the other classes. They have the advantage of the "infinite ranged" archetype that was actually true for the D1 rogue which could, well, kill everything while the durability lasted, and was the class that could beat the game while starting in nightmare even tho it was not really viable with warrior due to health issues or sorc due to mana issues.
You can take this wizard, remove mana, and replace everything with cooldowns. You'll get pretty much the same thing. So you'll just be casting the no-cooldown spell while the other spells cool down, and casting one spell will affect the cooldowns on all others.
What scares me more is that I could still see Blizzard implement this and crack their heads over trying to balance the unbalanceable.