Ok, I really enjoy using two handed weapons much more than dual wielding weapons, but I'm not sure if they'll be viable because they obviously weren't in D2 in most cases. I think I remember a couple of blue posts a while back stating that Blizzard would like for any weapon combo to be viable, but I'm not sure where I saw it. Could anyone shed some insight on whether or not they have the chance of being viable in D3?
My place really was here. I was too foolish and stubborn to notice. But, what I truly hoped for then was here. Why do I always realize it When I've already lost it.
For the most part, I found 2h weapons to be better on almost every class in the beta.
The exceptions were classes that had access to much higher level 1h weapons and could dual wield them. But at that point it was comparing level 12 1hs to level 8 2hs.
It's not that simple. Two handers will always have the damage per second advantage on single targets (at least with base stats) but it's about more than that.
2 handers often deal far more damage than the health of the enemy, wasting damage that dual wielding (or using a 1h and a shield) doesn't. Thus, the faster hitting weapon that kills the same enemy is more effective. Further, damage procs on weapons (such as fire or arcane) occur more often on faster weapons, and the damage on those doesn't scale, so faster weapons get a boost there as well. Similarly, faster weapons generate more resources more quickly, as generators don't scale their resources with damage.
On the other hand, high damage but slow hitting weapons are excellent for spells/abilities that are unaffected by attack speed. For instance, long cooldown nukes like seven sided strike would benefit much more from a big 2 hander, because it's getting all the damage advantage and no speed drawback (since it goes on CD anyway). They are also excellent for AOE, since the damage scales. Attack speed scales on AOEs with no cooldown as well, but depending on where the damage/health threshold falls the 2 hander can clear a crowd in a single swipe that might take several from another weapon, reducing the amount of damage you take.
There are lots of pros and cons for both. Shields factor in too, as do most other items and abilities. It all comes down to your build.
TL;DR: Yes, 2 handers are viable, so are 1h + shield, dual wielding, etc
It's not that simple. Two handers will always have the damage per second advantage on single targets (at least with base stats) but it's about more than that.
2 handers often deal far more damage than the health of the enemy, wasting damage that dual wielding (or using a 1h and a shield) doesn't. Thus, the faster hitting weapon that kills the same enemy is more effective. Further, damage procs on weapons (such as fire or arcane) occur more often on faster weapons, and the damage on those doesn't scale, so faster weapons get a boost there as well. Similarly, faster weapons generate more resources more quickly, as generators don't scale their resources with damage.
On the other hand, high damage but slow hitting weapons are excellent for spells/abilities that are unaffected by attack speed. For instance, long cooldown nukes like seven sided strike would benefit much more from a big 2 hander, because it's getting all the damage advantage and no speed drawback (since it goes on CD anyway). They are also excellent for AOE, since the damage scales. Attack speed scales on AOEs with no cooldown as well, but depending on where the damage/health threshold falls the 2 hander can clear a crowd in a single swipe that might take several from another weapon, reducing the amount of damage you take.
There are lots of pros and cons for both. Shields factor in too, as do most other items and abilities. It all comes down to your build.
TL;DR: Yes, 2 handers are viable, so are 1h + shield, dual wielding, etc
Thanks for the detailed reply. You covered what the blue posts were basically talking about. I just think that dual wielding doesn't feel as epic as 2H weapons, so I'll probably be using that massive 2H axe on my barb. Of course, I'll probably use 2 1 handers if I don't get any good 2H drops, but I'm hoping that crafting will partially fix that issue.
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My place really was here. I was too foolish and stubborn to notice. But, what I truly hoped for then was here. Why do I always realize it When I've already lost it.
OmniNom is right in that the 2H are better for certain skills than others. For example - I found Bola shot to be much more fun to use with a 2H bow rather than pistol crossbows. This is because you would end up firing 3 bolas on the same target and end up doing overkill.
However, simultaneously... I saw the effect of a 1H + OH combo. In the beta that measily +2-4 Damage Adds up. Unless you have 2 weapons with a DPS difference of < 15% you end up losing damage by dual wielding. However... as you can guess the +25 STAT from an offhand item or dual wield will probably overwhelm 2Hers at higher levels. That 2Her will probably be snuffed by the offhand stat bonuses end game.
On the other hand, high damage but slow hitting weapons are excellent for spells/abilities that are unaffected by attack speed. For instance, long cooldown nukes like seven sided strike would benefit much more from a big 2 hander, because it's getting all the damage advantage and no speed drawback (since it goes on CD anyway).
Don't forget that they are excellent for any move that costs resources, especially those of the WD and Wiz (As they don't have generators)
In those situations you have to look at damage per resource, which 2h is almost always going to win.
I mean it's not that you can throw out 3 arcane orb as fast as the guy with a 2h can throw 2, but if his 2 do as much damage as your 3, he's dealing 50% more damage with his 3, and your arcane power fills at the same rate. It's the same for witch doctors who might actually go oom if their weapon isn't slow enough.
Thus, the faster hitting weapon that kills the same enemy is more effective. Further, damage procs on weapons (such as fire or arcane) occur more often on faster weapons, and the damage on those doesn't scale, so faster weapons get a boost there as well.
I just want to clarify one point here, damage procs don't occur faster on 1h weapons vs 2h weapons.
Most procs have a hidden mechanic called "PPM" or procs per minute, which is a rough calculation that takes into account the speed of the weapon. It's the same mechanic for many items in WoW.
So if you've got the same "proc" on a 1h and a 2h, they should hit roughly the same. The 1h will have a lower chance of proccing but hits faster, the 2h will have a higher chance of proccing but hits slower - so in summary, every 60 seconds they should be comparable from a proc perspective.
personally i think it comes down to class balance and how well they balance out the weapons. Assuming the attack speed bonus = the damage increase of the two hander it will really come down to play style, build and as mentioned by MandyMemory, class (due to the nature of the class it self).
Playing the beta It really goes both ways. while true that 2h might be slightly less efficiant on smaller prey it is just that, crap in the way of champs, uniques and bosses and hopefully a front load AoE will clear a chunk of those in the beginning will clear up the annoying weak ones right away.
I genuinely think they will need to buff 1h'ers damage.
I just finished a DH play through and the 2h'ers were a clear winner. The speed isn't that much difference for the amount of damage change a 2h gives you.
Other classes are different, but for DH it was massive for me.
I don't think you guys remember this... but there was a blue post about how they intentionally buffed 2H weapons due to the fact that +X damage on the offhand item/ weapon in the end was trumping 2H damage later game.
Further, damage procs on weapons (such as fire or arcane) occur more often on faster weapons,
You sure about this? you sure its not PPM?
Yes... because they aren't procs. +Fire damage or +Arcane Damage, etc are a flat damage bonus. its the same as +2-4 damage.... except that its magic and filtered by resistances rather than physical damage reduction. (the ambiguity of the armor damage reduction makes it sound like it reduces damage further beyond resistances...)
On my barbarian, using a 20 dps 2h blows away using 2 15-16 dps one handers. We shall see how it all works out in the end. I don't think we can accurately assess it from the beta.
There's an 18% difference in equal level 2h and dual-weilding DPS. DW results in a 15% increased resource regeneration however, which is not immediately quantified in terms of DPS or survivability benefits.
On the other hand, high damage but slow hitting weapons are excellent for spells/abilities that are unaffected by attack speed. For instance, long cooldown nukes like seven sided strike would benefit much more from a big 2 hander, because it's getting all the damage advantage and no speed drawback (since it goes on CD anyway).
Don't forget that they are excellent for any move that costs resources, especially those of the WD and Wiz (As they don't have generators)
In those situations you have to look at damage per resource, which 2h is almost always going to win.
I mean it's not that you can throw out 3 arcane orb as fast as the guy with a 2h can throw 2, but if his 2 do as much damage as your 3, he's dealing 50% more damage with his 3, and your arcane power fills at the same rate. It's the same for witch doctors who might actually go oom if their weapon isn't slow enough.
This is an awesome point. Using a 2 hander can nullify your need for resource generation under some circumstances because of the higher damage per resource point and lower rate of fire. It's a game changer.
On a Barbarian especially, who recieves extra fury from being struck regardless of his generator abilities (and gets fury for normal auto-attacks), players might be able to pick up a few fury generation items/passives and a big slow 2 hander, and just queue up weapon throw, siesmic slam, or hammer of the ancients as their primary attack.
I REALLY want to try this...
Also, there are certain procs that I'm sure have a PPM rating, but for flat arcane/ice/etc bonus damage, it hits every attack. Attackspeed is a huge advantage on these items.
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This Is what mostly prompted this post.
The exceptions were classes that had access to much higher level 1h weapons and could dual wield them. But at that point it was comparing level 12 1hs to level 8 2hs.
2 handers often deal far more damage than the health of the enemy, wasting damage that dual wielding (or using a 1h and a shield) doesn't. Thus, the faster hitting weapon that kills the same enemy is more effective. Further, damage procs on weapons (such as fire or arcane) occur more often on faster weapons, and the damage on those doesn't scale, so faster weapons get a boost there as well. Similarly, faster weapons generate more resources more quickly, as generators don't scale their resources with damage.
On the other hand, high damage but slow hitting weapons are excellent for spells/abilities that are unaffected by attack speed. For instance, long cooldown nukes like seven sided strike would benefit much more from a big 2 hander, because it's getting all the damage advantage and no speed drawback (since it goes on CD anyway). They are also excellent for AOE, since the damage scales. Attack speed scales on AOEs with no cooldown as well, but depending on where the damage/health threshold falls the 2 hander can clear a crowd in a single swipe that might take several from another weapon, reducing the amount of damage you take.
There are lots of pros and cons for both. Shields factor in too, as do most other items and abilities. It all comes down to your build.
TL;DR: Yes, 2 handers are viable, so are 1h + shield, dual wielding, etc
Thanks for the detailed reply. You covered what the blue posts were basically talking about. I just think that dual wielding doesn't feel as epic as 2H weapons, so I'll probably be using that massive 2H axe on my barb. Of course, I'll probably use 2 1 handers if I don't get any good 2H drops, but I'm hoping that crafting will partially fix that issue.
However, simultaneously... I saw the effect of a 1H + OH combo. In the beta that measily +2-4 Damage Adds up. Unless you have 2 weapons with a DPS difference of < 15% you end up losing damage by dual wielding. However... as you can guess the +25 STAT from an offhand item or dual wield will probably overwhelm 2Hers at higher levels. That 2Her will probably be snuffed by the offhand stat bonuses end game.
In those situations you have to look at damage per resource, which 2h is almost always going to win.
I mean it's not that you can throw out 3 arcane orb as fast as the guy with a 2h can throw 2, but if his 2 do as much damage as your 3, he's dealing 50% more damage with his 3, and your arcane power fills at the same rate. It's the same for witch doctors who might actually go oom if their weapon isn't slow enough.
I just want to clarify one point here, damage procs don't occur faster on 1h weapons vs 2h weapons.
Most procs have a hidden mechanic called "PPM" or procs per minute, which is a rough calculation that takes into account the speed of the weapon. It's the same mechanic for many items in WoW.
So if you've got the same "proc" on a 1h and a 2h, they should hit roughly the same. The 1h will have a lower chance of proccing but hits faster, the 2h will have a higher chance of proccing but hits slower - so in summary, every 60 seconds they should be comparable from a proc perspective.
Playing the beta It really goes both ways. while true that 2h might be slightly less efficiant on smaller prey it is just that, crap in the way of champs, uniques and bosses and hopefully a front load AoE will clear a chunk of those in the beginning will clear up the annoying weak ones right away.
But if you do more damage, you won't be needing as many resources.
Just food for thought....
Diablo is an action-rpg, so yeah it mostly is about damage!
There are no "healers" or "tanks" in this game really.
If you're doing more damage, you don't need to use your more defensive, movement, secondary abilities. There is a direct correlation here.
I just finished a DH play through and the 2h'ers were a clear winner. The speed isn't that much difference for the amount of damage change a 2h gives you.
Other classes are different, but for DH it was massive for me.
+100 Arcane damage X2 > + 150 Arcane damage x1 (2H)
You sure about this? you sure its not PPM?
Yes... because they aren't procs. +Fire damage or +Arcane Damage, etc are a flat damage bonus. its the same as +2-4 damage.... except that its magic and filtered by resistances rather than physical damage reduction. (the ambiguity of the armor damage reduction makes it sound like it reduces damage further beyond resistances...)
This is an awesome point. Using a 2 hander can nullify your need for resource generation under some circumstances because of the higher damage per resource point and lower rate of fire. It's a game changer.
On a Barbarian especially, who recieves extra fury from being struck regardless of his generator abilities (and gets fury for normal auto-attacks), players might be able to pick up a few fury generation items/passives and a big slow 2 hander, and just queue up weapon throw, siesmic slam, or hammer of the ancients as their primary attack.
I REALLY want to try this...
Also, there are certain procs that I'm sure have a PPM rating, but for flat arcane/ice/etc bonus damage, it hits every attack. Attackspeed is a huge advantage on these items.