diablo 3 ros end sucks as always. Same thing pick a class gear it up and and try to get high on the leaderbored. even with seasons game is still boring. do greater rifts over and over again just for exp since the cube can gear you up easily. end game is always 1dps and 3 support pfft everytime. I reckon there should be more stuff to do for players, cause new maps are not going to help <_<. there should be a reason to grind not only for exp and gear but like new passive/skills you can unlock with paragon points. so you can create more builds and have something to grind for.
I say this as delicate as possible. You guys are playing a game expecting something out of it that it wasn't designed for. It's designed for people that love the grind and love the journey to the end game (the point where you get to grind). Instead of putting up a complaint that the game needs some changes that would divert the game from the audience it was intended for you should probably move on to another game.
There are a number of side issues that detract from the main issue which is the group compositions that inevitably become cookie cutter when pushing the leaderboards. There is a certain class of player that can be called elite that top the leaderboards and they dictate what other players will do trying to imitate the success of the elites. This results in the group compositions for four player GR pushing that almost every group calls for when making a group, Currently this is the DMO wiz and three supports.
The issue is how to make for more group compositions viable closer to the current highest GR levels being pushed. Most dedicated players are trying to get into the 100+ GR club currently, so they are keeping to the cookie cutter solution as a solid entry. The cookie cutter composition is played for many GR levels before the current highest GR clears also. It would be nice if the cookie cutter solution wasn't necessary until about ten GR levels before the highest GR cleared by the top of the 4 player GR leaderboard.
That being said I simply have no clue as to how to broaden the entry way into higher GRs. I'm sick of the cookie cutter groups, but they are the most effective and all thirsty players will use them regardless just for a chance to be even considered somewhat near elite status. There will always be a meta solution in group or solo play that makes the most headway and players will follow those molds.
What the Holy Grail solution would be is to make as many other builds and group compositions almost as viable to the metas for as long as possible. If the elites are playing the in vogue cookie cutter meta at gr 100+, then it would be nice to be able to play other group compositions up to GR 95 or so. These alternative compositions would have to be near in number output as the current cookie cutter solution. The question though is how could the dev team even anticipate what the meta will be and how to convince multiple players to bother with anything other than the cookie cutter which has proven successful by its proven performance as demonstrated by the top positions on the leaderboards?
Overall the real problem may not bet the performance possibilities of other builds, but instead the way players play the game. How willing are players to actually try the second or third best builds just for more variety? Because there are meta builds players line up like sheep in a chute just to be near elite status and seem very unwilling to try anything else once a pathway to the top seems open. Getting to the top is just like mountain climbing. Once a route has been established, following climbers tend to stick to that path with not much will to vary from it.
How can the dev team open the meta to more build possibilities when most players only want to play what is currently considered the best solution? Nerf everything to the same level of mediocrity? If the end of the game is to get to the highest GR possible in group or solo play then that goal is the limit to what the game can ever possibly be. The GR end game is Diablo3, so the only solution is to make another Diablo game designed from the ground up where highest GR level is not the intended goal.
Keep in mind that what you reached in a few days/weeks is what the average player reaches in months. The endgame is good. It's just not made for nolifing.
This.
What is it with so many people these days that think that their $50 game purchase entitles them to a lifetime of perfect (for them specifically) gameplay?
This is not a game for the "nolifers" who want to put thousands of hours into one character and still have a progression left.
Still not sure how you can have that stance when people purposefully break rules by botting to get paragon levels and continue to progress....
That being said, the issue personifies the lack of end game. Why reset and start from lvl 1 in a season? Why not allow for new reputations and other grand features every season, keeping your same character?
Blizz has found a way to over complicate the system in theory, but dumb things down to much in execution. Leading to terrible balance issues. Me and you go at this quite a bit, but if you remove Paragon, and instead have a system based on improving gear and skills, you have a great end game. It truly is that simple.
You could even keep paragon, but make it about gear and skills in point distribution instead of attributes.
Keep in mind that what you reached in a few days/weeks is what the average player reaches in months. The endgame is good. It's just not made for nolifing.
This.
What is it with so many people these days that think that their $50 game purchase entitles them to a lifetime of perfect (for them specifically) gameplay?
Well, maybe the developer themselves? I mean come on, stop ignoring facts, they said they want the best game in the genre, and they want the Diablo legacy to live forever.
WRT the lack of diversity with builds I think a lot of players have to accept they are partly to blame.
Now, I'll admit to being pretty nooby with Diablo and that I really have absolutely no interest in pushing high GRifts or being anywhere near leader boards, that's not me, however looking at it from the outside and comparing it to what I have seen elsewhere it seems a lot of people are still retreating to the mindset of 'this is they mathematically best build, I must use it no matter what'.
People need to get into their heads that what is best at the very top, for the very top players is not necessarily best for everyone else.
honestly... if you feel this way, i recommend playing hardcore. It's a lot more challenging and the progression is slower. also, when you die...you can complain about how much is sucks to caldesan the gear for your LoN build that you didnt get to push solo with yet cuz you died in a group game.
This is not a game for the "nolifers" who want to put thousands of hours into one character and still have a progression left.
Still not sure how you can have that stance when people purposefully break rules by botting to get paragon levels and continue to progress....
That being said, the issue personifies the lack of end game. Why reset and start from lvl 1 in a season? Why not allow for new reputations and other grand features every season, keeping your same character?
Blizz has found a way to over complicate the system in theory, but dumb things down to much in execution. Leading to terrible balance issues. Me and you go at this quite a bit, but if you remove Paragon, and instead have a system based on improving gear and skills, you have a great end game. It truly is that simple.
You could even keep paragon, but make it about gear and skills in point distribution instead of attributes.
I already said it once and I'll say it again:
Whenever you have content ideas or read about them, don't think "what would be cool". Think "who could not like this?". The more game changing stuff you move into the deep endgame (hundreds of hours to unlock something big), the more likely you'll displease players who cannot play that much. And players who cannot play that much, are the biggest chunk of players in every game. That's why the "deep endgame" in D3 consists out of simple pushing of your mainstat and not game changing features that open up completely new ways to play it.
Sorry, I just disagree with your assumptions of what the general population likes and wants.
What you and others seem to not understand, or are not getting, is that many changes suggested mean seasons, but no character wipe. It takes around 75-100 hours to max out a toon with full or nearly full (1-2 pieces short) ancient gear for ALL sets of that class. If you are not resetting seasons in terms of gear, 75-100 hours can be achieved by ALL PLAYERS, making it very fun.
In fact, most casuals (in your eyes, I disagree with the term) play non-seasonal because of the season resetting so frequently. Why would you make game modes that shun the interaction of many of your players?
Instead, have Era's that are 3-4 seasons long, essentially lasting 12 months. Every 3-4 months, you get new faction rewards, a few new dungeons unlocked, or cool items.
Most of you seem to be locked into improving the game based on the certain system, not looking outside of the box, and that is your downfall. All of your logic on deep end game makes no sense and is a bit hypocritical as you are saying that paragon affects nobody negatively, yet admitting that it is the only thing for deep end game. I mean come on, see the writing on the wall!
Keep in mind that what you reached in a few days/weeks is what the average player reaches in months. The endgame is good. It's just not made for nolifing.
This.
What is it with so many people these days that think that their $50 game purchase entitles them to a lifetime of perfect (for them specifically) gameplay?
Well, maybe the developer themselves? I mean come on, stop ignoring facts, they said they want the best game in the genre, and they want the Diablo legacy to live forever.
So yeah......
I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that Blizzard said "And we will cowtow to every little whiny bitch on the internet who thinks the game should be custom tailored for him".
I have 4k hours on a dh from 4 years playing.. like they say if arpg/grinding isn't 4 u then look at othergames maybe diablo3 isn't 4 u . but games r a preference of what the players like ...thou shalt not judge ! love peace and chiken greace
Keep in mind that what you reached in a few days/weeks is what the average player reaches in months. The endgame is good. It's just not made for nolifing.
This.
What is it with so many people these days that think that their $50 game purchase entitles them to a lifetime of perfect (for them specifically) gameplay?
Well, maybe the developer themselves? I mean come on, stop ignoring facts, they said they want the best game in the genre, and they want the Diablo legacy to live forever.
So yeah......
I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that Blizzard said "And we will cowtow to every little whiny bitch on the internet who thinks the game should be custom tailored for him".
I agree with you on that.....but, end game in an ARPg is vital, would really like it to be updated to more of a skill/grind than paragon rules all system. Likely do not get that until Xpac2 though
diablo 3 ros end sucks as always. Same thing pick a class gear it up and and try to get high on the leaderbored. even with seasons game is still boring. do greater rifts over and over again just for exp since the cube can gear you up easily. end game is always 1dps and 3 support pfft everytime. I reckon there should be more stuff to do for players, cause new maps are not going to help <_<. there should be a reason to grind not only for exp and gear but like new passive/skills you can unlock with paragon points. so you can create more builds and have something to grind for.
You really don't understand what an aarpg is... you should play a different genre.
Diablo has always revolved around gearing more efficiently and becoming an unstoppable demon slayer.
And I personally enjoy the current meta, most dislike it but eh the enjoyment of the group meta is subjective.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
Hate to bust your bubble... but all games are basicly the same... Grind Grind Grind Get better gear Grind Grind get to Boss Grind Nerd Rage to 1st attempt loss.. Grind more get better gear re roll stats grind more till you get the stuff you want... same with WoW grind get stuff get better grind grind complete game... start new toon and do over again.
This thread has been a really interesting read. I think there have been enough great suggestions here to give the devs brain food for three months. The 'you know nothing' comments are , as always, unhelpful. But many of the replies are on target.
I love RPG and strategy game play. Always have and always will. And I probably love the Diablo franchise more than most. That said, I do have some pet peeves. And build diversity is one of them. I hate the fact that we are forced into certain builds in order to advance in endgame. Yeah. I know. "That's just the way it is...you obviously don't like ARPG's!" Blah blah blah. See above.
A true RPG allows a broader skill tree development than D3 ever has or - most likely - ever will. Want to clear high level Grifts? One choice...at most two...per class.
the thing is, if you make no resets, you'll have to expand the end. Because why should someone play when he's already maxed out. And now do this not once, but for a year or two. And suddenly you have to invest a thousand hours into this game to "finish" it. And that might be super interesting for you but for a newcomer that's scary.
The cold hard truth is that the so-called casual player will never advance very far in D3. The sheer amount of grinding necessary for Caldesann's Despair alone is daunting. Not to mention Paragon Levels. 3k+ Paragon? Gabynator has God knows how many hours in his Crusader...?
I say this as delicate as possible. You guys are playing a game expecting something out of it that it wasn't designed for. It's designed for people that love the grind and love the journey to the end game (the point where you get to grind). Instead of putting up a complaint that the game needs some changes that would divert the game from the audience it was intended for you should probably move on to another game.
Just this. D3 isn't an MMO because it wasn't intended to be by Blizzard.
diablo 3 ros end sucks as always. Same thing pick a class gear it up and and try to get high on the leaderbored. even with seasons game is still boring. do greater rifts over and over again just for exp since the cube can gear you up easily. end game is always 1dps and 3 support pfft everytime. I reckon there should be more stuff to do for players, cause new maps are not going to help <_<. there should be a reason to grind not only for exp and gear but like new passive/skills you can unlock with paragon points. so you can create more builds and have something to grind for.
Yeah and when you grind those passives, what are those for? new builds? you use those new builds for what?
Diablo has always been grinding, gearing up to be more efficient in handling the hardest content.
I say this as delicate as possible. You guys are playing a game expecting something out of it that it wasn't designed for. It's designed for people that love the grind and love the journey to the end game (the point where you get to grind). Instead of putting up a complaint that the game needs some changes that would divert the game from the audience it was intended for you should probably move on to another game.
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There are a number of side issues that detract from the main issue which is the group compositions that inevitably become cookie cutter when pushing the leaderboards. There is a certain class of player that can be called elite that top the leaderboards and they dictate what other players will do trying to imitate the success of the elites. This results in the group compositions for four player GR pushing that almost every group calls for when making a group, Currently this is the DMO wiz and three supports.
The issue is how to make for more group compositions viable closer to the current highest GR levels being pushed. Most dedicated players are trying to get into the 100+ GR club currently, so they are keeping to the cookie cutter solution as a solid entry. The cookie cutter composition is played for many GR levels before the current highest GR clears also. It would be nice if the cookie cutter solution wasn't necessary until about ten GR levels before the highest GR cleared by the top of the 4 player GR leaderboard.
That being said I simply have no clue as to how to broaden the entry way into higher GRs. I'm sick of the cookie cutter groups, but they are the most effective and all thirsty players will use them regardless just for a chance to be even considered somewhat near elite status. There will always be a meta solution in group or solo play that makes the most headway and players will follow those molds.
What the Holy Grail solution would be is to make as many other builds and group compositions almost as viable to the metas for as long as possible. If the elites are playing the in vogue cookie cutter meta at gr 100+, then it would be nice to be able to play other group compositions up to GR 95 or so. These alternative compositions would have to be near in number output as the current cookie cutter solution. The question though is how could the dev team even anticipate what the meta will be and how to convince multiple players to bother with anything other than the cookie cutter which has proven successful by its proven performance as demonstrated by the top positions on the leaderboards?
Overall the real problem may not bet the performance possibilities of other builds, but instead the way players play the game. How willing are players to actually try the second or third best builds just for more variety? Because there are meta builds players line up like sheep in a chute just to be near elite status and seem very unwilling to try anything else once a pathway to the top seems open. Getting to the top is just like mountain climbing. Once a route has been established, following climbers tend to stick to that path with not much will to vary from it.
How can the dev team open the meta to more build possibilities when most players only want to play what is currently considered the best solution? Nerf everything to the same level of mediocrity? If the end of the game is to get to the highest GR possible in group or solo play then that goal is the limit to what the game can ever possibly be. The GR end game is Diablo3, so the only solution is to make another Diablo game designed from the ground up where highest GR level is not the intended goal.
What is it with so many people these days that think that their $50 game purchase entitles them to a lifetime of perfect (for them specifically) gameplay?
Still not sure how you can have that stance when people purposefully break rules by botting to get paragon levels and continue to progress....
That being said, the issue personifies the lack of end game. Why reset and start from lvl 1 in a season? Why not allow for new reputations and other grand features every season, keeping your same character?
Blizz has found a way to over complicate the system in theory, but dumb things down to much in execution. Leading to terrible balance issues. Me and you go at this quite a bit, but if you remove Paragon, and instead have a system based on improving gear and skills, you have a great end game. It truly is that simple.
You could even keep paragon, but make it about gear and skills in point distribution instead of attributes.
So yeah......
There is nothing wrong with having both insta gratfication rewards, and long term rewards in the same game.
The Blizzard trademark, stands for quality games with way longer lifespan than any other similar games.
The biggest chunk of casual players is not what they design anything for, they just play their limited time anyway.
Set dungeons, Conquests & Achievements, Leaderboards, Wings, Journey, Augments and so on is all for those few who actually plays the game "alot".
Now, I'll admit to being pretty nooby with Diablo and that I really have absolutely no interest in pushing high GRifts or being anywhere near leader boards, that's not me, however looking at it from the outside and comparing it to what I have seen elsewhere it seems a lot of people are still retreating to the mindset of 'this is they mathematically best build, I must use it no matter what'.
People need to get into their heads that what is best at the very top, for the very top players is not necessarily best for everyone else.
honestly... if you feel this way, i recommend playing hardcore. It's a lot more challenging and the progression is slower. also, when you die...you can complain about how much is sucks to caldesan the gear for your LoN build that you didnt get to push solo with yet cuz you died in a group game.
What you and others seem to not understand, or are not getting, is that many changes suggested mean seasons, but no character wipe. It takes around 75-100 hours to max out a toon with full or nearly full (1-2 pieces short) ancient gear for ALL sets of that class. If you are not resetting seasons in terms of gear, 75-100 hours can be achieved by ALL PLAYERS, making it very fun.
In fact, most casuals (in your eyes, I disagree with the term) play non-seasonal because of the season resetting so frequently. Why would you make game modes that shun the interaction of many of your players?
Instead, have Era's that are 3-4 seasons long, essentially lasting 12 months. Every 3-4 months, you get new faction rewards, a few new dungeons unlocked, or cool items.
Most of you seem to be locked into improving the game based on the certain system, not looking outside of the box, and that is your downfall. All of your logic on deep end game makes no sense and is a bit hypocritical as you are saying that paragon affects nobody negatively, yet admitting that it is the only thing for deep end game. I mean come on, see the writing on the wall!
Personal endgames ? I always use that cuz i tknow i will never rise in a laddar. so i just try to push myself!
I have 4k hours on a dh from 4 years playing.. like they say if arpg/grinding isn't 4 u then look at othergames maybe diablo3 isn't 4 u . but games r a preference of what the players like ...thou shalt not judge ! love peace and chiken greace
Diablo has always revolved around gearing more efficiently and becoming an unstoppable demon slayer.
And I personally enjoy the current meta, most dislike it but eh the enjoyment of the group meta is subjective.
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
Hate to bust your bubble... but all games are basicly the same... Grind Grind Grind Get better gear Grind Grind get to Boss Grind Nerd Rage to 1st attempt loss.. Grind more get better gear re roll stats grind more till you get the stuff you want... same with WoW grind get stuff get better grind grind complete game... start new toon and do over again.
This thread has been a really interesting read. I think there have been enough great suggestions here to give the devs brain food for three months. The 'you know nothing' comments are , as always, unhelpful. But many of the replies are on target.
I love RPG and strategy game play. Always have and always will. And I probably love the Diablo franchise more than most. That said, I do have some pet peeves. And build diversity is one of them. I hate the fact that we are forced into certain builds in order to advance in endgame. Yeah. I know. "That's just the way it is...you obviously don't like ARPG's!" Blah blah blah. See above.
A true RPG allows a broader skill tree development than D3 ever has or - most likely - ever will. Want to clear high level Grifts? One choice...at most two...per class.