There is no situation whatsoever in which you need maphack, only those in which you want it because you're lazy. I did plenty of magic finding over the years, and never once used maphack because it felt dishonest and because, doing usually just mephisto, pindle, or baal runs, it didn't save that much time.
If one feels compelled to cheat in a game, there's something wrong with the game... I'll go back to my original argument that maphack should simply not be advantageous and running through maps should not let anyone MF faster or w/e.
I am sorry if you misinterpreted my response as a way of twisting "A" to make it equal "B". I, unfortunately, understand both sides of this argument. While on the one hand, the game as we know it is almost ten years old. Players currently are playing the game out of habit and commitment, trying to soak as much fun out the game as possible. While I can argue that 99.9% of players on Battle.net are veteran players, a hack, as defined. is a modification of a program or device to give the user access to features that were otherwise unavailable. That being said, the game was programmed a certain way, and without the use of extraneous programs that not everyone has access to, it can be considered "unfair" to legitimate users who wish to play the game naturally. Let it be known that I fall into the former category, for I do indeed have a Maphack.
Hacks have been stopped by simple code for their MMO model. Why shouldn't it work here? The only reason why we have hacks in the first place is because of poorly written code on an old coding system (VBasic both ways), and a client side model of server // client communication. The new system uses an XML interface with a C++ compiler. With the security of the aforementioned code, the only type of hacks we'll ever see are single-player trainers.
Ah. I see both your points, and you are right, to a point it does provide a advantage to the player who knows where to find everything, and who ever he is helping as well. However, though it may be a advantage, the hack is self does not impede on your own progress, but rather just provides advantage to the player using it. It may seem like a twist of words, and may seem like a useless point. But such things are very different in a RPG rather than MMO. I think the differences are obvious, but in a RPG, you are not forced to play with other people in order to level up. In Diablo you could play the entire game without help from a single person.
This is where me and other people started to use map hack however. When playing a game to finish act 1, map hack was useful. You could quickly go through the catacombs, find the boss and kill it.
Maybe Im somewhat wary of Blizzard getting rid of something that at moments of frustration Ive chosen to rely on in the game, map hack certainly made leveling much much faster, epically when going on runs or finishing acts. I would certainly like a more hack-free environment however, which looking at the bottom part of your post, does seem possible. However if anything It's probably Diablo's fault for making the use of map hack such a positive.
Maybe Im somewhat wary of Blizzard getting rid of something that at moments of frustration Ive chosen to rely on in the game, map hack certainly made leveling much much faster, epically when going on runs or finishing acts. I would certainly like a more hack-free environment however, which looking at the bottom part of your post, does seem possible. However if anything It's probably Diablo's fault for making the use of map hack such a positive.
You're wary of them getting rid of an illegitimate tool that they never intended to have in to begin with? I find that to be a bit humorous. I find it even funnier that you blame the game for your cheating. Any game has any number of hacks that would be a great positive, but that doesn't mean you should use it and say "Well it's the game's fault!" That to me feels like a cheap justification for cheating.
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"Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness; on the confines of the two everlasting empires, necessity and free will." -Thomas Carlyle
If one feels compelled to cheat in a game, there's something wrong with the game... I'll go back to my original argument that maphack should simply not be advantageous and running through maps should not let anyone MF faster or w/e.
You know people create hacks to gain an advantage. Even if map hacks don't give any advantage, they'll make something that does.
Quote from "SFJake" »
I'll look at his point and simply say: Finding your way sucked.
Exploring sucked. There was nothing worth your time unless you really enjoy so much killing every single monsters around (which I really did not).
I can say using a map hack -does- make the game -funnier-. It removes an annoyance out of the game.
You play Diablo 3 to pass the time don't you?
Nothing in Diablo 3 is really "worth your time" since you're probably playing Diablo 3 just to kill time.
Unless you're one of the people who does nothing but game.
You know people create hacks to gain an advantage. Even if map hacks don't give any advantage, they'll make something that does.
If everyone uses it and if everyone can justify using it due to Blizzard's stupidity in creating maps where killing a boss is for some stupid reason more useful than killing everyone else on the map, that's a problem that needs to be looked into. Sames goes to muling, Baal run bots, and all other things. Gaining advantage refers more to things like giving yourself god mode or ultra damage or I don't know, but creating hacks to basically do what you don't want to do (including exploring, boss runs, and whatever else) means that the players do not enjoy doing that which means it needs to be fixed. I also think rushing is a similar "hack", it just ended up being legal. But people are too bored to go through the game on their own or to level properly.
All those are fail elements. Runs should be modified or removed, rushing needs to be discouraged, maphack should be made useless and exploring fun. If I ever wanted to cheat in a game in this way it's because there was a mechanic that pissed me off, not so much because I wanted to gain advantage over the imaginary battle.net player.
Nothing in Diablo 3 is really "worth your time" since you're probably playing Diablo 3 just to kill time.
Unless you're one of the people who does nothing but game.
So D3 is just a means of killing time? I can kill time by staring at the ceiling too, but that doesn't work very well. Why? Because that's boring and playing D3, believe it or not, is fun for some.
It's called entertainment, and in end-game the enjoyment out of acquiring better gear vastly supercedes pointless exploring. Thus, maphack.
Quote from "Equinox" »
All those are fail elements. Runs should be modified or removed, rushing needs to be discouraged, maphack should be made useless and exploring fun. If I ever wanted to cheat in a game in this way it's because there was a mechanic that pissed me off, not so much because I wanted to gain advantage over the imaginary battle.net player.
I completely agree with your proposition.
It should be advantageous to kill monsters along the way, rather than just the boss. But at the same time, isn't a boss meant to logically drop better gear? A tough problem to crack...
It should be advantageous to kill monsters along the way, rather than just the boss. But at the same time, isn't a boss meant to logically drop better gear? A tough problem to crack...
The amount of effort needed to put in to kill a boss should minimize the advantage of killing him, and side things should drop a bit more gear or they shouldn't be there at all.
The amount of effort needed to put in to kill a boss should minimize the advantage of killing him, and side things should drop a bit more gear or they shouldn't be there at all.
The only way this can be done is by:
1) Making the distance from a checkpoint to reaching the boss longer (and this means the straight line distance to consider maphack active). Maybe give the maps more of a funneling effect such as in titan quest.
2) Lower the drops of the boss.
3) Increase the drops of random critters and treasure chests.
All these are achievable, but in the spirit of Diablo, the difference between a critter's drop and a boss' drop should still be great. This just leaves 1...
Hacks will always exist as people will always want an unfair advantage because the person next to them has an awesome piece of gear and its unfair because they didn't deserve it while the person who is stareing in envy does, that's how hacks are made and why people tend to use them. Is it justified? No of course not. But people are stupid enough to think so.
There are many forms of unjust behavious in games. Is it fair to have the ability to gain an outrageous advantage over others with a little bit of real life cash?
The hackers put time in to gain an unfair advantage.
The buyers put money in for the same reason.
Is time and money any different?
Except, the hacking is the only punishable offense. Of course, this is the only one that can be enforced and stopped.
In conclusion, players will always have ways of gaining an unfair advantage. This is inevitable, no matter how much it bothers us.
1) Making the distance from a checkpoint to reaching the boss longer (and this means the straight line distance to consider maphack active). Maybe give the maps more of a funneling effect such as in titan quest.
I actually stronger prefer TQ map design to DII map design. Much nicer to clear and it doesn't seem as naked as huge empty DII maps...
Quote from "Puttah" »
2) Lower the drops of the boss.
3) Increase the drops of random critters and treasure chests.
Yep.
Quote from "Puttah" »
All these are achievable, but in the spirit of Diablo, the difference between a critter's drop and a boss' drop should still be great. This just leaves 1...
I don't know what the spirit of DII is, I know in DI I found weird stuff everywhere and since I played SP you couldn't go back and run anyone, which, in my opinion, was awesome... you had to be good to kill the next monsters, not just go back and get better gear... spitting dogs... butcher... guys in Hellfire tomb... good times...
-Boss drops a LOT, so yes, you WANT to kill them. However, you can only get good drops from a boss once every day. If you kill him again, he drops much, much less, so its not worth running that boss
-Make sure that the player cannot make its way to the boss without killing anything. This might seems rude to some, but I do believe the dungeons should have some limit so that if you don't kill anything, you can't go too far. Simply, any method that prevents boss running without killing a thing in the way.
Using D2 as an example, I think I would be quite happy for example, to have to run Baal, kill a lot of things in the way, kill a Baal that drops a lot (with much better drop rates than it is currently in D2), but once that is done, I can do a lot of different things to get gear.
Why I'm proposing things like this, is simply because boss that never drops anything sucks. They are bosses. They should be big on drop. Some should have some specific drops as well (but thats another subject). But you shouldn't be able to "farm" them. This is similar to the Raid limits in WoW, though with a slightly different purpose.
I'm not exactly sure why I wrote this here anyway, this all derived from a maphack discussion, but I guess it is related.
lol. I'm pretty damn sure someone, somewhere will find a way to create a map hack. I enjoyed it when it came out until it got to good. Being able to dodge incomming amazon missles..come on..thats a bit much. BUT I had already beat the game numerous amount of times before they mousepad introduced his map hack so for me it did'nt really take away from anything. It let me know where the cow king was to avoid him and helped people rush me 3x faster AND people really didn't charge for rushes when they knew exactly where to go
You're wary of them getting rid of an illegitimate tool that they never intended to have in to begin with? I find that to be a bit humorous. I find it even funnier that you blame the game for your cheating. Any game has any number of hacks that would be a great positive, but that doesn't mean you should use it and say "Well it's the game's fault!" That to me feels like a cheap justification for cheating.
It may be a illegitimate tool that you were not suppose to have, but its one that many people have at one point or another used in order to get through the game, such as myself from time to time.
But yes, it is the games fault Because the game did not make it worth it enough to actually play it. Why spend a hour looking for the correct stairway when you could just use a hack instead? Why go through act 3 the correct way when you could just hack your way through? For quite a few players it was just simple easier to use hack rather than go through the game the hardway. That is why I could say it was 'Blizzards fault' because they did not make it beneficial enough to go through the game and kill everything. Now yes, there will be quite a few people who will use map hack anyway, but for the majority of people who may have used it a few times out of convenience, they might have not if there was a real benefit to just not using it, or real benefit to going through the entire game.
Looking back, normal monsters dropped very little in terms of value, while past a certain point, they became useless in terms of gaining experience. So Im not really surprised people will use the hack.
Sry for the choice of word, but that is plain bullshit.
No offense taken.
Putting restrictions on a games features based on the existing maphacks is idiotic. Tell me one game where a hack or bot wouldn't give you an advantage? I can't come up with any.
Im sorry, you've completely lost me with your ranting. Looking at what you quoted, All I said was that it's blizzards fault for not making the use of hack less of a benefit. Thus saying that if they want to cut down on people using it, they need to make playing the game more beneficial. At the same time, even I'm not saying using hack won't give a player a advantage, however, it does not suddenly make it impossible for you progress unlike other hacks in other games.
You are basically saying that all games should have the exact same ways of getting experience, or otherwise they will make hacks useful. And if they do make hacks useful, and people start using hacks, then it is the gaming company's fault.
We are not talking about games in general, we are talking about Diablo, and in Diablo, you gain experience by killing monsters. Thus why my post is not pointed at the game industry in general, or even all of Blizzard, such as Starcraft, where the maphack does provide you a much more obvious advantage. But yes, Blizzard should at some level looking at themselves in order to make the player less encouraged to hack.
Is it also Blizzards fault that bots gives you an advantage?
No, it isnt, because I think Bots are kinda different than a maphack :confused: One allows you to just see what the map is, the other can allow you to see the immunity of a monster and do all other sorts of things that should not be allowed.
Thats like comparing a simple sneeze and a full blown cold.
Doing something that isn't in the game by default is always the doers fault. It is not the internets fault that I got a virus, it is the person that made and uploaded the virus to the internet.
Well.. it could be the fault of the person who decided to look up porn and got a virus while doing it because he stupidly clicked a link that made him download a new video player in order to watch the video. But I do get your comparison, it would in most cases the fault of the person for being stupid. Which is the point, the person who uses the hack, chooses to use the hack. But it's also something to say that it's also Blizzards issue that they made a game that was 1) easy to hack, and 2) made the use of hack such a benefit.
The game was made almost 10 years ago, pretty much all games from back then are hackable today.
True, and we should expect more than a few improvements with D3 in terms of security.
Changing the system to not make "the use of hack such a benefit" would severely cripple the creativity. You can of course make a game where players have no "need" for hacks, but what is the point of that? Why would you design a game with the focus of discouraging hacks? All game companies can certainly not do that or games would be way too similar, so why would Blizzard be the company to do it? You can't blame Blizzard for a general problem. So blaming Diablo for this is essentally to blame every other game, because they have the same problems.
Hmm. I just want to point out that im not saying Blizzard should purposely try and make a game where you don't "need" hacks. That should never be the central point that you design a game on. But there are multiple things Diablo could do to make itself better.
There are 3 reasons why people use maphack:
1. Because you level up/MF quicker, usually the same reason why people use bots.
2. Gives you an advantage over others, also one of the reasons to use a bot.
3. Because the game is funnier with it, people feel the need to use a bot.
I agree with those. But Bots can do a lot more than maphack in most cases... which can make a large difference.
The first problem shouldn't have to be solved because it is not a problem. The game is not intended to be played with a maphack, therefore it should not be designed assuming that the majority is going to use a maphack (because the majority don't). This problem is the reason used by people that prefer character progress over gameplay.
The second problem is definitely a problem, but it is a problem that can't be solved by changing systems. People that just wants to be better are always going to use hacks is they can.
The third problem is the one that needs a solution. Diablo 2 is funnier with maphack. I have not heard anyone saying that they like to search through the catacombs for the 18:th time. They enjoy the game more when they don't have to do the searching part. This will no longer be a problem when the searching is actually fun. This is the reason for why D2 has so many
bots, because runs are not fun.
You are completely right on problem 2, people will always use hacks. However, for problems 1 and 3, they sometimes go hand in hand. One of the biggest reasons to use maphack is because you get to skip the searching part. Make the searching part fun, make it produce some results, and you may cut down use of maphack.
It ruins the intended leveling speed. Compare how quick someone with maphack does things compared to someone without.
The main reason people use MH is for MF runs though. If you have to do 1 million MF runs to maybe get the item you want you better damn well have a fast and effecient way to do it. It won't be as prevalent in this one though if they make it so it isn't astronomical rare to get things like high runes and what not.
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Believe me it saves so much time.
its not supposed to be a nice game
autostats are rediclous
lack of pots is not welcome
if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
Ah. I see both your points, and you are right, to a point it does provide a advantage to the player who knows where to find everything, and who ever he is helping as well. However, though it may be a advantage, the hack is self does not impede on your own progress, but rather just provides advantage to the player using it. It may seem like a twist of words, and may seem like a useless point. But such things are very different in a RPG rather than MMO. I think the differences are obvious, but in a RPG, you are not forced to play with other people in order to level up. In Diablo you could play the entire game without help from a single person.
This is where me and other people started to use map hack however. When playing a game to finish act 1, map hack was useful. You could quickly go through the catacombs, find the boss and kill it.
Maybe Im somewhat wary of Blizzard getting rid of something that at moments of frustration Ive chosen to rely on in the game, map hack certainly made leveling much much faster, epically when going on runs or finishing acts. I would certainly like a more hack-free environment however, which looking at the bottom part of your post, does seem possible. However if anything It's probably Diablo's fault for making the use of map hack such a positive.
Making Controversial points one post at a time!
You're wary of them getting rid of an illegitimate tool that they never intended to have in to begin with? I find that to be a bit humorous. I find it even funnier that you blame the game for your cheating. Any game has any number of hacks that would be a great positive, but that doesn't mean you should use it and say "Well it's the game's fault!" That to me feels like a cheap justification for cheating.
"Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness; on the confines of the two everlasting empires, necessity and free will."
-Thomas Carlyle
Exploring sucked. There was nothing worth your time unless you really enjoy so much killing every single monsters around (which I really did not).
I can say using a map hack -does- make the game -funnier-. It removes an annoyance out of the game.
You play Diablo 3 to pass the time don't you?
Nothing in Diablo 3 is really "worth your time" since you're probably playing Diablo 3 just to kill time.
Unless you're one of the people who does nothing but game.
All those are fail elements. Runs should be modified or removed, rushing needs to be discouraged, maphack should be made useless and exploring fun. If I ever wanted to cheat in a game in this way it's because there was a mechanic that pissed me off, not so much because I wanted to gain advantage over the imaginary battle.net player.
It's called entertainment, and in end-game the enjoyment out of acquiring better gear vastly supercedes pointless exploring. Thus, maphack.
I completely agree with your proposition.
It should be advantageous to kill monsters along the way, rather than just the boss. But at the same time, isn't a boss meant to logically drop better gear? A tough problem to crack...
The only way this can be done is by:
1) Making the distance from a checkpoint to reaching the boss longer (and this means the straight line distance to consider maphack active). Maybe give the maps more of a funneling effect such as in titan quest.
2) Lower the drops of the boss.
3) Increase the drops of random critters and treasure chests.
All these are achievable, but in the spirit of Diablo, the difference between a critter's drop and a boss' drop should still be great. This just leaves 1...
There are many forms of unjust behavious in games. Is it fair to have the ability to gain an outrageous advantage over others with a little bit of real life cash?
The hackers put time in to gain an unfair advantage.
The buyers put money in for the same reason.
Is time and money any different?
Except, the hacking is the only punishable offense. Of course, this is the only one that can be enforced and stopped.
In conclusion, players will always have ways of gaining an unfair advantage. This is inevitable, no matter how much it bothers us.
Yep.
I don't know what the spirit of DII is, I know in DI I found weird stuff everywhere and since I played SP you couldn't go back and run anyone, which, in my opinion, was awesome... you had to be good to kill the next monsters, not just go back and get better gear... spitting dogs... butcher... guys in Hellfire tomb... good times...
-Boss drops a LOT, so yes, you WANT to kill them. However, you can only get good drops from a boss once every day. If you kill him again, he drops much, much less, so its not worth running that boss
-Make sure that the player cannot make its way to the boss without killing anything. This might seems rude to some, but I do believe the dungeons should have some limit so that if you don't kill anything, you can't go too far. Simply, any method that prevents boss running without killing a thing in the way.
Using D2 as an example, I think I would be quite happy for example, to have to run Baal, kill a lot of things in the way, kill a Baal that drops a lot (with much better drop rates than it is currently in D2), but once that is done, I can do a lot of different things to get gear.
Why I'm proposing things like this, is simply because boss that never drops anything sucks. They are bosses. They should be big on drop. Some should have some specific drops as well (but thats another subject). But you shouldn't be able to "farm" them. This is similar to the Raid limits in WoW, though with a slightly different purpose.
I'm not exactly sure why I wrote this here anyway, this all derived from a maphack discussion, but I guess it is related.
It may be a illegitimate tool that you were not suppose to have, but its one that many people have at one point or another used in order to get through the game, such as myself from time to time.
But yes, it is the games fault Because the game did not make it worth it enough to actually play it. Why spend a hour looking for the correct stairway when you could just use a hack instead? Why go through act 3 the correct way when you could just hack your way through? For quite a few players it was just simple easier to use hack rather than go through the game the hardway. That is why I could say it was 'Blizzards fault' because they did not make it beneficial enough to go through the game and kill everything. Now yes, there will be quite a few people who will use map hack anyway, but for the majority of people who may have used it a few times out of convenience, they might have not if there was a real benefit to just not using it, or real benefit to going through the entire game.
Looking back, normal monsters dropped very little in terms of value, while past a certain point, they became useless in terms of gaining experience. So Im not really surprised people will use the hack.
Making Controversial points one post at a time!
No offense taken.
Im sorry, you've completely lost me with your ranting. Looking at what you quoted, All I said was that it's blizzards fault for not making the use of hack less of a benefit. Thus saying that if they want to cut down on people using it, they need to make playing the game more beneficial. At the same time, even I'm not saying using hack won't give a player a advantage, however, it does not suddenly make it impossible for you progress unlike other hacks in other games.
We are not talking about games in general, we are talking about Diablo, and in Diablo, you gain experience by killing monsters. Thus why my post is not pointed at the game industry in general, or even all of Blizzard, such as Starcraft, where the maphack does provide you a much more obvious advantage. But yes, Blizzard should at some level looking at themselves in order to make the player less encouraged to hack.
No, it isnt, because I think Bots are kinda different than a maphack :confused: One allows you to just see what the map is, the other can allow you to see the immunity of a monster and do all other sorts of things that should not be allowed.
Thats like comparing a simple sneeze and a full blown cold.
Well.. it could be the fault of the person who decided to look up porn and got a virus while doing it because he stupidly clicked a link that made him download a new video player in order to watch the video. But I do get your comparison, it would in most cases the fault of the person for being stupid. Which is the point, the person who uses the hack, chooses to use the hack. But it's also something to say that it's also Blizzards issue that they made a game that was 1) easy to hack, and 2) made the use of hack such a benefit.
Making Controversial points one post at a time!
True, and we should expect more than a few improvements with D3 in terms of security.
Hmm. I just want to point out that im not saying Blizzard should purposely try and make a game where you don't "need" hacks. That should never be the central point that you design a game on. But there are multiple things Diablo could do to make itself better.
I agree with those. But Bots can do a lot more than maphack in most cases... which can make a large difference.
You are completely right on problem 2, people will always use hacks. However, for problems 1 and 3, they sometimes go hand in hand. One of the biggest reasons to use maphack is because you get to skip the searching part. Make the searching part fun, make it produce some results, and you may cut down use of maphack.
Making Controversial points one post at a time!
The main reason people use MH is for MF runs though. If you have to do 1 million MF runs to maybe get the item you want you better damn well have a fast and effecient way to do it. It won't be as prevalent in this one though if they make it so it isn't astronomical rare to get things like high runes and what not.