Yeah guys, I think the intent is pretty clear here. Nobody is asking anything to be "better". That's precisely the point, how the difference between one and the other should bebalanced (and that's the keyword here).
Perfectly balanced? Always 100% equal? We know that's not possible... but at least in the same ballpark. And shaggy might have a point here. I still haven't personally decided if grouping is indeed that much better for rewards.
My own personal results seem to be mixed feelings. When I want to play on my own terms, explore what I want, face the enemies I want and waste as much time as I want salvaging, checking the AH, and doing side-quests, it's better to play solo. And I still get good xp and legendaries from it.
Groups usually have people who like to go through specific areas, and that leads to you facing enemies you don't really want to - I hate those "big Snakes" from Arreat Crater and the Battlefield area with all those flyers, but people love those areas. I personally love doing the entire Keep in Act 3 and the first few areas after leaving it (the battlefield, which usually contains the Forward Barracks or Fortified Bunker dungeon).
Also, from my own experience, killing stuff in a group always seems to take longer (but feels safer). People simply aren't in sync 100% of the time. And that makes up for a huuuge difference in my opinion.
My tendency is to agree that it's better to push the balance towards group play than solo play. But I'm not sure where that balance is right now.
I play co-op when I feel like it, but most of the time I'm solo. I prefer solo play because I play at a challenging level and know I can't rely on anyone but myself to get my character out of tough situations; however, I still enjoy co-op occasionally to meet new people, explore new builds, and see skill synergies.
The game is scaled to accommodate for randomness in the group being formed and to pad against the fact that some people may be trying new builds and haven't solidified how to use them with the group yet.
The solution, then, is to do precisely what WoW does.
You get buffs if you join a random. If you do not join a random you don't get buffs.
If the problem is "I *could* get grouped with derpy players" then people doing preforms don't need the buffs. Right?
Co-op is fine. I'm always more efficient solo. I kill things faster and go where I want.
I do play with friends and it's nice to have small buff for being in a group but NEVER have I felt I'm missing out because i'm not playing in random pub games for the bonuses.
Who cares about the XP gains in higher Torment? It's such a boring motivator. There's literally nothing different except mobs have way more HP, hit harder. It's not like you're getting items you can't get in lower Torment.
Co-op is fine. I'm always more efficient solo. I kill things faster and go where I want.
I do play with friends and it's nice to have small buff for being in a group but NEVER have I felt I'm missing out because i'm not playing in random pub games for the bonuses.
Who cares about the XP gains in higher Torment? It's such a boring motivator. There's literally nothing different except mobs have way more HP, hit harder. It's not like you're getting items you can't get in lower Torment.
Well see, that's Shaggy's point, is that it IS far more efficient to play in a group. Mob's HP only scales at 50%. Meaning with four clones of yourself, you've quadrupled your DPS while only doubling the mobs HP - right there it's more efficient. Then add in the buff, and the fact that your four clones can clear higher torment just as fast (which means more legendaries per hour) and you've got something that isn't balanced against solo play.
Will you find four clones of yourself? (Yea, if you're multiboxing). Probably not, but you can come pretty close with friends. I believe all that's being asked is the balance get's taken a look at.
I think the balance is close enough. The incentives to play in a group are nice but not nearly as overwhelming as you make out. It's certainly not to the point where solo play isn't an option. If nothing else, the AH has given me a litmus test about imbalance and what it feels like to have no options, and this is nowhere near it.
It's going to be different for everybody, I know. But to me it still feels like I have a choice; I mean, I look at it this way - in Diablo 2, Baal Runs / Bloody Runs were the best way to get exp, lightyears ahead of playing solo, but I never felt obligated to do them because the experience was so dramatically different from actually playing through the game. I could do them if I wanted the reward of fast exp sometimes, and then other times roll solo and enjoy the reward of solo play. It's not like I felt like I couldn't progress or enjoy the game without doing Bloody Runs. And frankly, sometimes I get into co-op games where the other three are way powerful, and all have max run speed, and it's all I can do to keep up let alone actually kill anything. And the exp pours in, and the items pour in, but I don't feel like this is the only way I can play.
The thing I like about the extra co-op bonuses is that it's a good incentive for me to group with strangers. Solo play and playing with real friends is rewarding in its own way, but sometimes I'll sit down and those bonuses will nudge me into grouping up instead of just playing alone when I'm feeling a little ambivalent, and I think that's really good for the community. But if I feel like playing solo, I don't feel like I'm wasting my time.
An idea why they implemented it this way is IF they made it 100% hp increase then for people to party they would HAVE to find people of equal or greater gear level or it would hinder or slow the group down.
50% hp increase allows people to have a wider range of gear set/skill levels to party with.
Also what if 1-2 of your party goes back to town to repair or sell or jerk off? So pretty sure it factors that in too.
I disagree. I think CO-OP should be the most powerful and best way to not only play but find items and level paragon and the incentive should be substantial enough to over come people's reluctance to play co-op.
I completely agree with the OP on one hand, on the other - I can't help but think that D2 would be really shit without the social element that was forced upon people if you wanted to do say, Baal runs in /player 8.
I wouldn't change monster HP scaling but rather tone down Strength in Numbers or make it just give you one stack for the 2nd player and that's it.
Alternatively, I would increase the legendary drop rate for killing bosses in a solo game so that EXP farming is more efficient coop but MFing can viably be done solo or something to that effect (like D2). But Blizzard is not really fond of the concept of boss farming unfortunately.
Co-op is fine. I'm always more efficient solo. I kill things faster and go where I want.
I do play with friends and it's nice to have small buff for being in a group but NEVER have I felt I'm missing out because i'm not playing in random pub games for the bonuses.
Who cares about the XP gains in higher Torment? It's such a boring motivator. There's literally nothing different except mobs have way more HP, hit harder. It's not like you're getting items you can't get in lower Torment.
Well see, that's Shaggy's point, is that it IS far more efficient to play in a group. Mob's HP only scales at 50%. Meaning with four clones of yourself, you've quadrupled your DPS while only doubling the mobs HP - right there it's more efficient. Then add in the buff, and the fact that your four clones can clear higher torment just as fast (which means more legendaries per hour) and you've got something that isn't balanced against solo play.
Will you find four clones of yourself? (Yea, if you're multiboxing). Probably not, but you can come pretty close with friends. I believe all that's being asked is the balance get's taken a look at.
Shaggy's point is more precisely that he thinks the balance gap is too big, not that there's something wrong with groupplay being more efficient.
You examples are in a dreamworld, 4 clones of myself would fuck things up real good yes, but I have 4 people with different gear, maybe not optimized build (and also spend some time optimizing their build), that takes 2-10 minutes pauses every now and then (baathroom, smoke, something to drink, quick eat, phonecall, doorbell, fucking girlfriend.... etc!). Yes they can leave, but often it's like "brb 2sec into 2-4 minutes". And this is with friends, not just some random guys.
Secondly, on top of that each person in the group gives a further 25% XP and MF bonus through the Strength in Numbers buff. So, in addition to being able to bump your difficulty up because of HP scaling, you're gaining more XP and more MF.
Each person only gives 10% more XP, Gold Find and Magic Find.
I don't see the issue with playing coop. They WANT you to play coop, hence rewards such as the increased MF for sticking together. Diablo titles (and their subsequent clones such as Torchlight) have always been more fun when playing together as compared to solo...so why not reward it?
I don't see the issue with playing coop. They WANT you to play coop, hence rewards such as the increased MF for sticking together. Diablo titles (and their subsequent clones such as Torchlight) have always been more fun when playing together as compared to solo...so why not reward it?
And it's not like if randoms didn't know what to do when doing "runs". So if you think its such a huge disadvantage by going solo.... get over it and play in a group thats all.
I don't see the issue with playing coop. They WANT you to play coop, hence rewards such as the increased MF for sticking together. Diablo titles (and their subsequent clones such as Torchlight) have always been more fun when playing together as compared to solo...so why not reward it?
Really? Because Josh said, at least once, that no one should be penalized for playing solo.
To say they "want" you to play co-op is outrageously misleading. They want you to play what you want to play and, to that extent, it's pretty silly to try to insinuate they are OK with people who play solo having some kind of inferior experience. If you really believe that line... well then you've been lying to yourself so much that you actually believe it.
All these 4.5 billion XP/hr videos. They're all done in a group. Do you think that's a coincidence? I don't. And, if it's not, I'll be here patiently waiting for people to post videos of them getting anywhere close to those rates solo. I'm not going to bet on that happening, though, because anyone with a brain can see how the math stacks up.
If the bonuses are to help with random bads... then they simply shouldn't be applied to preformed groups. Pretty simple concept, really.
Get a clan, get some friends, profit. If you want to play solo it's still fun. This is an online game after all. My problem is I have to many friends and only 3 other spots.
There is never going to be a happy medium for everything. Someone is always going to be mad about something.
It's more of a buff to co-op players, rewarding people for the risk they take when joining random groups that might possibly cant steamroll the content. Isnt it better to give people a reward for playing co-op together. the buff is good but not outrageous that requires you to play co-op.
Having no buff for playing solo, is like playing the normal game normally. So dont even think of getting a solo buff since you're playing solo.
personally like playing co-op cos I play with real-life friends who screams WTF!!! to each other when a legendary drops (and WTF!!! again after id). it's fun, even when there was monster scaling.
not sure about the item trading thing is a real benefit in co-op cos I am the only barb left in the group. What can I get/give to the dex or int players due to smart loot?
the only benefit is to have a grp of 4dex, 4int or 4str to play but their buffs won't stack...
i know how hard it is for ppl who still like to play solo but hey this 'more ppl the better' logic has been around since God made eve. My builder didn't build my house alone...
if something must be changed I'd say the monster power cos it's not a fight if all it takes is longer to beat but can't beat you however, the scale shouldn't be a flat rate but depends on players avg damage and toughness.
btw, first reply ever in this forum after reading 2zillion posts everywhere complaining about something.
I notice there are ppl out there who push stuff to the limit e.g how many exp/hr, dps, dph, etc but for me, the diablo series has always been for the big F...
FUN!!!
did I tried those exp runs, gold runs, mat runs, legendary runs, overnight AH biddings and broken builds? Yes, for fun.
will I be constraint by it? No, cos it will become boring.
y care about the game, class, builds, etc disadvantages that constraint you from having FUN?
At the moment I am doing T5 quest reset routes with friends.
it's not the most efficient way to get exp (cos COTA is),
it's not the best way to farm legendaries (cos T1 is),
it's not a good way to get gold (cos we die),
Why am I (we) doing it? for FUN.
If I had to play a game outside FUN I'd probably go LoL or DOTA, at least they have prize money.
Probably my last post here and I wish u all can have as much FUN with d3 and onwards.
soz for the bad English as I can't be stuff checking wall of text with a small iphone screen.
I feel like the differences are only really more pronounced at the moment because of the additional 50% buff to XP that we are getting, that it all ramps up when you get into a group
I play diablo to play with other people, the clan systems and everything make this very simple to set up runs with clanmates. If you prefer to play solo, then that's fine shaggy, but what I am doing in my game doesn't stop you from doing what you are doing in your game.
I really feel like you're blowing this way out of proportion, or you just havent factored the 50% additional XP buff we have at the moment
I don't see the issue with playing coop. They WANT you to play coop, hence rewards such as the increased MF for sticking together. Diablo titles (and their subsequent clones such as Torchlight) have always been more fun when playing together as compared to solo...so why not reward it?
Really? Because Josh said, at least once, that no one should be penalized for playing solo.
To say they "want" you to play co-op is outrageously misleading. They want you to play what you want to play and, to that extent, it's pretty silly to try to insinuate they are OK with people who play solo having some kind of inferior experience. If you really believe that line... well then you've been lying to yourself so much that you actually believe it.
All these 4.5 billion XP/hr videos. They're all done in a group. Do you think that's a coincidence? I don't. And, if it's not, I'll be here patiently waiting for people to post videos of them getting anywhere close to those rates solo. I'm not going to bet on that happening, though, because anyone with a brain can see how the math stacks up.
If the bonuses are to help with random bads... then they simply shouldn't be applied to preformed groups. Pretty simple concept, really.
You aren't penalized for playing Solo. Playing solo is the base difficulty of the game and coop makes it EASIER, it isn't the other way around.
Perfectly balanced? Always 100% equal? We know that's not possible... but at least in the same ballpark. And shaggy might have a point here. I still haven't personally decided if grouping is indeed that much better for rewards.
My own personal results seem to be mixed feelings. When I want to play on my own terms, explore what I want, face the enemies I want and waste as much time as I want salvaging, checking the AH, and doing side-quests, it's better to play solo. And I still get good xp and legendaries from it.
Groups usually have people who like to go through specific areas, and that leads to you facing enemies you don't really want to - I hate those "big Snakes" from Arreat Crater and the Battlefield area with all those flyers, but people love those areas. I personally love doing the entire Keep in Act 3 and the first few areas after leaving it (the battlefield, which usually contains the Forward Barracks or Fortified Bunker dungeon).
Also, from my own experience, killing stuff in a group always seems to take longer (but feels safer). People simply aren't in sync 100% of the time. And that makes up for a huuuge difference in my opinion.
My tendency is to agree that it's better to push the balance towards group play than solo play. But I'm not sure where that balance is right now.
I play co-op when I feel like it, but most of the time I'm solo. I prefer solo play because I play at a challenging level and know I can't rely on anyone but myself to get my character out of tough situations; however, I still enjoy co-op occasionally to meet new people, explore new builds, and see skill synergies.
You get buffs if you join a random. If you do not join a random you don't get buffs.
If the problem is "I *could* get grouped with derpy players" then people doing preforms don't need the buffs. Right?
Co-op is fine. I'm always more efficient solo. I kill things faster and go where I want.
I do play with friends and it's nice to have small buff for being in a group but NEVER have I felt I'm missing out because i'm not playing in random pub games for the bonuses.
Who cares about the XP gains in higher Torment? It's such a boring motivator. There's literally nothing different except mobs have way more HP, hit harder. It's not like you're getting items you can't get in lower Torment.
Will you find four clones of yourself? (Yea, if you're multiboxing). Probably not, but you can come pretty close with friends. I believe all that's being asked is the balance get's taken a look at.
It's going to be different for everybody, I know. But to me it still feels like I have a choice; I mean, I look at it this way - in Diablo 2, Baal Runs / Bloody Runs were the best way to get exp, lightyears ahead of playing solo, but I never felt obligated to do them because the experience was so dramatically different from actually playing through the game. I could do them if I wanted the reward of fast exp sometimes, and then other times roll solo and enjoy the reward of solo play. It's not like I felt like I couldn't progress or enjoy the game without doing Bloody Runs. And frankly, sometimes I get into co-op games where the other three are way powerful, and all have max run speed, and it's all I can do to keep up let alone actually kill anything. And the exp pours in, and the items pour in, but I don't feel like this is the only way I can play.
The thing I like about the extra co-op bonuses is that it's a good incentive for me to group with strangers. Solo play and playing with real friends is rewarding in its own way, but sometimes I'll sit down and those bonuses will nudge me into grouping up instead of just playing alone when I'm feeling a little ambivalent, and I think that's really good for the community. But if I feel like playing solo, I don't feel like I'm wasting my time.
50% hp increase allows people to have a wider range of gear set/skill levels to party with.
Also what if 1-2 of your party goes back to town to repair or sell or jerk off? So pretty sure it factors that in too.
I wouldn't change monster HP scaling but rather tone down Strength in Numbers or make it just give you one stack for the 2nd player and that's it.
Alternatively, I would increase the legendary drop rate for killing bosses in a solo game so that EXP farming is more efficient coop but MFing can viably be done solo or something to that effect (like D2). But Blizzard is not really fond of the concept of boss farming unfortunately.
You examples are in a dreamworld, 4 clones of myself would fuck things up real good yes, but I have 4 people with different gear, maybe not optimized build (and also spend some time optimizing their build), that takes 2-10 minutes pauses every now and then (baathroom, smoke, something to drink, quick eat, phonecall, doorbell, fucking girlfriend.... etc!). Yes they can leave, but often it's like "brb 2sec into 2-4 minutes". And this is with friends, not just some random guys.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/game/guide/gameplay/playing-with-friends#multiplayer-bonuses
To say they "want" you to play co-op is outrageously misleading. They want you to play what you want to play and, to that extent, it's pretty silly to try to insinuate they are OK with people who play solo having some kind of inferior experience. If you really believe that line... well then you've been lying to yourself so much that you actually believe it.
All these 4.5 billion XP/hr videos. They're all done in a group. Do you think that's a coincidence? I don't. And, if it's not, I'll be here patiently waiting for people to post videos of them getting anywhere close to those rates solo. I'm not going to bet on that happening, though, because anyone with a brain can see how the math stacks up.
If the bonuses are to help with random bads... then they simply shouldn't be applied to preformed groups. Pretty simple concept, really.
There is never going to be a happy medium for everything. Someone is always going to be mad about something.
Single play is fine.
Having no buff for playing solo, is like playing the normal game normally. So dont even think of getting a solo buff since you're playing solo.
not sure about the item trading thing is a real benefit in co-op cos I am the only barb left in the group. What can I get/give to the dex or int players due to smart loot?
the only benefit is to have a grp of 4dex, 4int or 4str to play but their buffs won't stack...
i know how hard it is for ppl who still like to play solo but hey this 'more ppl the better' logic has been around since God made eve. My builder didn't build my house alone...
if something must be changed I'd say the monster power cos it's not a fight if all it takes is longer to beat but can't beat you however, the scale shouldn't be a flat rate but depends on players avg damage and toughness.
btw, first reply ever in this forum after reading 2zillion posts everywhere complaining about something.
I notice there are ppl out there who push stuff to the limit e.g how many exp/hr, dps, dph, etc but for me, the diablo series has always been for the big F...
FUN!!!
did I tried those exp runs, gold runs, mat runs, legendary runs, overnight AH biddings and broken builds? Yes, for fun.
will I be constraint by it? No, cos it will become boring.
y care about the game, class, builds, etc disadvantages that constraint you from having FUN?
At the moment I am doing T5 quest reset routes with friends.
it's not the most efficient way to get exp (cos COTA is),
it's not the best way to farm legendaries (cos T1 is),
it's not a good way to get gold (cos we die),
Why am I (we) doing it? for FUN.
If I had to play a game outside FUN I'd probably go LoL or DOTA, at least they have prize money.
Probably my last post here and I wish u all can have as much FUN with d3 and onwards.
soz for the bad English as I can't be stuff checking wall of text with a small iphone screen.
cheers
I play diablo to play with other people, the clan systems and everything make this very simple to set up runs with clanmates. If you prefer to play solo, then that's fine shaggy, but what I am doing in my game doesn't stop you from doing what you are doing in your game.
I really feel like you're blowing this way out of proportion, or you just havent factored the 50% additional XP buff we have at the moment
As it should be
As Blizzard thinks it should be
Working as intended
Not be an ass, but this thread is stupid. I bet you're one of extreme's preaching that this game would fail since it lacked offline singleplayer.