It is not about the rankings. You again, pick 1 little thing to try and spin in your favor while ignoring all of the other facts. I think you nailed it on the head though, with the word casual. Blizzard is indeed making this Diablo for the casual crowd, the crowd who will easily flock to the next latest game. Shame really, the casual crowd isn't who still plays Diablo to this day. Oh well, Blizzards loss not mine.
Actually is Blizzard and non-pvpers gain, YOUR loss. Don't get it twisted.
Demands:
Customizable Arena options for private matches - Game types (FFA, Teams, 2 v 3, ect) - Changing the time limit - custom respawn times (instant, XX seconds, none) - other options I can't think of right now.
World PvP option (D2 Style) - Allow world PvP as a game option during creation.
Group/Party vs Group/Party - Able to selectively choose if you want to take XXX to the arena/dual/game.
Statistics (toggleable) - Kills, deaths, highest burst damage, most players killed in a life, ect.
Guild/Clan Flags - Ability to show your guild/clan name on your flag.
Wishful thinking:
Wagers - A safe way to bet on duels (it is going to happen either way right? Cough Cough RMAH logic).
Nonsense:
Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument. - And no you don't need to be inside of an arena for skills to be balanced, even in D2 they had ways of balancing skills on players.
Ladders - Nobody mentioned ladders on the pvp side, statistics does not equal ladders.
Personally if PvP was going to be anything that would of delayed the release of the game i would of agreed to there decision to withhold pvp. I understand no one wants to be ganked in the hard core or at all for that matter. Pvp should be regulated for all the right reasons and it should be something fair and fun. That is something that is going to take time and that is time they dont have apparently. By the looks of how blizzard has choose to do there pvp in WOW there will be different levels of pvp 10,20,30,40,50,60ect and not the open warfare we had in D2. yes it wont be an option right from the start but the fact that ANYONE is complaining is silly and pathetic, we dont even know how long it will be before pvp gets implemented. For all we know it would be as little as a month later, you just have to look at the bright side. at least blizzard didn't make the game a trilogy and split it into 3 games like starcraft.
Demands:
Customizable Arena options for private matches - Game types (FFA, Teams, 2 v 3, ect) - Changing the time limit - custom respawn times (instant, XX seconds, none) - other options I can't think of right now.
World PvP option (D2 Style) - Allow world PvP as a game option during creation.
Group/Party vs Group/Party - Able to selectively choose if you want to take XXX to the arena/dual/game.
Statistics (toggleable) - Kills, deaths, highest burst damage, most players killed in a life, ect.
Guild/Clan Flags - Ability to show your guild/clan name on your flag.
Wishful thinking:
Wagers - A safe way to bet on duels (it is going to happen either way right? Cough Cough RMAH logic).
Nonsense:
Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument. - And no you don't need to be inside of an arena for skills to be balanced, even in D2 they had ways of balancing skills on players.
Ladders - Nobody mentioned ladders on the pvp side, statistics does not equal ladders.
You have no right to demand anything... especially related to PvP. Anything blizzard does or gives for PvP is a gift to you as pvp is not required in diablo3 anyways.
Demands:
Customizable Arena options for private matches - Game types (FFA, Teams, 2 v 3, ect) - Changing the time limit - custom respawn times (instant, XX seconds, none) - other options I can't think of right now.
World PvP option (D2 Style) - Allow world PvP as a game option during creation.
Group/Party vs Group/Party - Able to selectively choose if you want to take XXX to the arena/dual/game.
Statistics (toggleable) - Kills, deaths, highest burst damage, most players killed in a life, ect.
Guild/Clan Flags - Ability to show your guild/clan name on your flag.
Wishful thinking:
Wagers - A safe way to bet on duels (it is going to happen either way right? Cough Cough RMAH logic).
Nonsense:
Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument. - And no you don't need to be inside of an arena for skills to be balanced, even in D2 they had ways of balancing skills on players.
Ladders - Nobody mentioned ladders on the pvp side, statistics does not equal ladders.
You have no right to demand anything... especially related to PvP. Anything blizzard does or gives for PvP is a gift to you as pvp is not required in diablo3 anyways.
i dont think he personally was demanding, just stating what we"the people" have ask for in the past in general.
Demands:
Customizable Arena options for private matches - Game types (FFA, Teams, 2 v 3, ect) - Changing the time limit - custom respawn times (instant, XX seconds, none) - other options I can't think of right now.
World PvP option (D2 Style) - Allow world PvP as a game option during creation.
Group/Party vs Group/Party - Able to selectively choose if you want to take XXX to the arena/dual/game.
Statistics (toggleable) - Kills, deaths, highest burst damage, most players killed in a life, ect.
Guild/Clan Flags - Ability to show your guild/clan name on your flag.
Wishful thinking:
Wagers - A safe way to bet on duels (it is going to happen either way right? Cough Cough RMAH logic).
Nonsense:
Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument. - And no you don't need to be inside of an arena for skills to be balanced, even in D2 they had ways of balancing skills on players.
Ladders - Nobody mentioned ladders on the pvp side, statistics does not equal ladders.
Customizable Arena: Arena customization isn't likely to happen to the degree you want due to the development time needed. I'm honestly not sure we'll even see prearranged team vs team PvP. The reason again comes down to the core reason Blizzard isn't adding many competitive PvP features. They don't want to officially support creating any form of eSport.
World PvP/Group PvP: There are no game lists in which to be able to choose a game running world PvP or not. In addition, what benefit would this provide to the majority of players? I could see them adding an in-world arena where people are flagged for PvP upon entering it. This would allow for people to make up their own rules for PvP, but not create many demands on Blizzard for support.
Statistics: What benefit would this have to the majority of players? All I can see complex statistics doing is leading to more elitist behavoirs, insulting players who do worse, etc.
Clans: I agree here. Clans would be beneficial to PvP and PvE alike and be a nice addition to the game.
Wagers: There are a bunch of legal issues to this. Gambling laws (as gold can be traded for cash, it becomes equal to cash in some cases) specifically would be a huge hurdle.
Balance: Not likely to be balanced beyond crowd control duration, player damage, etc. Which means many skills will still be vastly overpowered when used against players. Since Jay also stated that he doesn't want diminishing returns either, stun lock will still be possible, slow lock, etc.
Ladders: Not going to be added according to Jay. Ladders are a competitive PvP statistic that goes against the casual PvP design they are shooting for. Again, ladders seem to only end adding fuel for elitist behavior (I'm higher on the ladder so you're a noob, etc). I'm curious how this kind of behavior is good for the community?
I bought D1 when it first came out. My first character in D2 was a Barb named Kergin whom dual-wielded Flamberges. I remember when Rusbar was the first character to make it to 99, or so they claimed. I have bought D2 at least twice, and . I have been a fan of Blizzard games since Warcraft. I say this to show that I am old school, and have been playing Diablo since its inception. I have been a fan of Blizzard games since Warcraft 1. So there can be no reasonable claim that I have never played, don't know how to play, or didn't play Diablo 2 seriously, and didn't get everything out of the experience that can be gotten.
The idea that PvP is a vital part of Diablo 2 as the thread's creator described is absolutely false. PvP was almost an afterthought. All they did for PvP was was allow a person to go "hostile" at level nine, and a person could also go hostile at level nine allowing them to fight. The only award for fighting was looting the corpse of the looser and collecting their ear. That was it. Now one "could' say that if they don't like it, don't participate, but if you were on a public server and someone wanted to go hostile and others didn't, they would start trolling, and annoying the piss out of everyone involved. This was one of the many reasons I didn't play PvP and was reluctant to play online at all. PVP HAS NEVER BEEN THE FOCUS OF DIABLO! PvE has been the focus. Period. That is the end of the conversation, and the community's course of conversation is evidence of that fact. If YOU as the player put more emphasis on PvP that was your prerogative, but it was never a major policy of Blizzard, Blizzard North or any of the designers at the time, and Jay Wilson and the current design team have decided to continue that tradition. I for one am glad they have taken this route of separation between PvP and PvE for the Game. It does suck that it wont' be released with ship but it will be in the first patch as Blizzard has said, and frankly the thread creator is only speaking form his very limited experience and honestly doesn't know what he is talking about.
I will say this again.
"Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument."
Ha don't you love how they all ignore simple details that derail their whole argument?
People, listen....WE DO NOT EXPECT OR NEED BALANCE, WE ALSO DO NOT EXPECT OR NEED ESPORTS SUPPORT OR MENTALITY. I don't see where you could still think we do after we have stated this over a dozen times at least in this thread alone.
Just one thing. I completely agree with this post. For all people who cry about balance in PvP think about this a bit: for killing monsters over and over again you really need to have the same habilitys all the time, even if u can change between them whenever u want? And if there is no balance and the wizard is much better to farm, then you want that to stay that way and see all people with the same sorceress?
No balance in a game is stupid. People want to try some new skills, changes, patches, etc. A game like diablo with 4 acts and a counted number of random events... without balance, PvP, changes, expansions,... well it's pointless. Even if diablo 3 difficult is really high, U KNOW, that in one month people will be full geared and with 2-3 chars atleast. When you reach this point what? Because with maximum 4 players in a game and no PvP, is like to play ALONE!!!!!
If u want to play alone and just talk to your friends in the game, go play torchlight with skype or something like that !!!
So let me get this straight, because you mistakenly believe that PvP is absolutely necessary to make Diablo 3 fun, I should go and play Torchlight with Skype? Maybe you should just go play MW3 like all the other morons who think that is a great game simply because it has a new cover and stay the hell away from my Diablo. The idea skills wont be rebalanced at all without PvP is idiotic and ignorant. They will be constantly updating the game as they did with D2. All we want is PvP to be separate from PvE, which is exactly what we are getting, so we don't have jackasses ruining our fun by constantly trolling for duals.
Moreover, the idea that Diablo 3 without patches and balance is pointless, is flawed. As I have said, it will be patched and balanced to remove exploits, and to make sure all the characters are equally viable. The point of the game isn't actually the story, although I"m looking forward to it. The point is the circular formula of killing monsters to get better loot so I can kill more monsters. And if you think that is pointless then maybe you have missed the point of Diablo.
Honestly I think it would be interesting if Diablo PvP became balanced, and even if it made a run at E-Sports. That's something I could get into, so long as it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on PvE or PvM, whatever you want to call it.
As i said getting better gear to kill monsters to get better gear to kill more monsters...u know its a program right? Where is the challenge in that? It will reach the point that u can kill every monster in the game easily and then what? If the monster were new or i dont know, different atleast, i can understand that but... killing the same monster over and over again to kill the same monsters over and over again...man u have a serious problem with the idea of having fun.
I think you're missing one key factor...those of us defending PvE actually have some interest in casual PvP as well. We're not saying there should be no PvP. What we're saying is that they should not balance the game with PvP as a focus. We want to see the game maintain a focus on story and bashing monsters, like its always been with the Diablo series.
I look forward to the Arena, it sounds like it'll be a lot of fun.
The reason we cannot have more PvP features beyond Arena really boils down to this...Any features that give the impression that Diablo 3 PvP is an eSport would go against Blizzards decision to not support eSport PvP in Diablo 3. I understand why you guys want rankings, ladders, wagering, custom matches, etc. However, those kinds of features are primary features for eSport level PvP play. They aren't needed in a more casual PvP environment at all. Since Diablo 3 is focusing on such an environment, those features don't fit into Diablo 3.
It really isn't about what you want, or what I want...Blizzard made its decision for the direction of the game. If that means the game is not for you, then don't play it. Demanding that they change their entire design decision just because you want it, is just silly.
If you want PvP and PvP balance please go back to Counterstrike or any other FPS.
The only "PvP" Diablo needed was the one implemented in D2. Even Blizzard himself stated that Arena has been the biggest mistake they've ever made, so take it for what its worth.
Reason why PvE players "hate" PvP is simple, PvPers are a loud and very vocal minority wanting 100 % balance all the time, therefore crying for buffs/nerfs destroying PvE for everyone else. I've seen this crowd ruining games like Rift, WoW and Everquest so you shouldn't feel offended if people hate PvP.
I would have no problem if there were special PvP rulesets for games and duel function but things like Arena will kill the game for PvE players since you can't play it offline or with LAN therefore you have to accept every patch..
Thats not the PvP players fault, thats the game developers fault for not making abilities behave different in pve and pvp.
Ability X Does 100 dmg and does and 60% slow for 5 seconds PVE
Ability X does 80 dmg and does a 60% slow for 3 seconds PvP
holy shit, the ability to balance, without PvE effecting pvp balance.
the problem is blizzard thinks that their avg user base is too stupid to comprehend and excel having abilities perform 2 different ways (which is true) and that they have become too lazy to implement this balance (in wow)
In a dev interview they said they wanted to have abilities perform 2 different ways based on if you're in pvp or pve for d3, thats probly whats taking them so long. Because they slacked off with re balancing WoW this way, when it came to d3, this is the first stab at it.
PvE was never affected by PvP in rift, now you're talking out of your ass. PvP suffered for PvE for the longest time, still slightly now.
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Further, PvP'ers are not a minority, actually I would say PvP serious or casual has just as much pull as PvE in regards to blizzard games. If you look at what blizzard has done over the years for games?
D2 Dueling, WoW PvP eSport, SC1 eSport of a nation? SC2, eSport of a nation? WC3 eSport, which then leads to the creation of DotA, which leads to the creation of a new genre of PvP games known as MOBA. The ripple effect creates LoL eSport (although a joke) HoN, DotA and DotA 2 and soon Blizzard DotA
WoWs raid content has gotten progressively more stale? SC2 campaign was good, but not enough to dump more than 1-2 plays, WC3 campaign was good, but not enough to dump more than 1-2 plays on.
Blizzard has shown with their games they are able to create PvP magic, actually they do way better at creating PvP than they do at PvE, at least thats what the studio has shown over the last couple years.
So please, dont be one of those ignorant people that say "pvpers are a local minority". Their voice resonates quite loudly at blizz HQ
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Thats not the PvP players fault, thats the game developers fault for not making abilities behave different in pve and pvp.
Ability X Does 100 dmg and does and 60% slow for 5 seconds PVE
Ability X does 80 dmg and does a 60% slow for 3 seconds PvP
holy shit, the ability to balance, without PvE effecting pvp balance.
the problem is blizzard thinks that their avg user base is too stupid to comprehend and excel having abilities perform 2 different ways (which is true) and that they have become too lazy to implement this balance (in wow)
In a dev interview they said they wanted to have abilities perform 2 different ways based on if you're in pvp or pve for d3, thats probly whats taking them so long. Because they slacked off with re balancing WoW this way, when it came to d3, this is the first stab at it.
PvE was never affected by PvP in rift, now you're talking out of your ass. PvP suffered for PvE for the longest time, still slightly now.
You still seem to be missing a very specific issue with the idea of balancing both PvE and PvP completely separated that I've touched on a few times in this thread now. Blizzard doesn't have infinite resources. What you're essentially asking Blizzard to do is make two versions of Diablo 3 that are similar but distinctly different and somehow manage to still provide continual content for both. To do that they would need a PvE team and a PvP team, each developing content. The investment would be huge, and would only appeal to a minor subset of their players...how is that a good idea?
To be honest, why it likely 'took so long' is that its gotten the least amount of development attention. It has always kind of been last on the to-do list. Their goal has been to finalize the PvE story and gameplay and add casual PvP afterwards. PvP will have some balancing tweaks to it in order to tame down things like crowd control and most likely some of the really high damage abilities. It won't be all that balanced though, and it won't be extremely competitive. Welcome to Diablo 3.
Thats not the PvP players fault, thats the game developers fault for not making abilities behave different in pve and pvp.
Ability X Does 100 dmg and does and 60% slow for 5 seconds PVE
Ability X does 80 dmg and does a 60% slow for 3 seconds PvP
holy shit, the ability to balance, without PvE effecting pvp balance.
the problem is blizzard thinks that their avg user base is too stupid to comprehend and excel having abilities perform 2 different ways (which is true) and that they have become too lazy to implement this balance (in wow)
In a dev interview they said they wanted to have abilities perform 2 different ways based on if you're in pvp or pve for d3, thats probly whats taking them so long. Because they slacked off with re balancing WoW this way, when it came to d3, this is the first stab at it.
PvE was never affected by PvP in rift, now you're talking out of your ass. PvP suffered for PvE for the longest time, still slightly now.
You still seem to be missing a very specific issue with the idea of balancing both PvE and PvP completely separated that I've touched on a few times in this thread now. Blizzard doesn't have infinite resources. What you're essentially asking Blizzard to do is make two versions of Diablo 3 that are similar but distinctly different and somehow manage to still provide continual content for both. To do that they would need a PvE team and a PvP team, each developing content. The investment would be huge, and would only appeal to a minor subset of their players...how is that a good idea?
To be honest, why it likely 'took so long' is that its gotten the least amount of development attention. It has always kind of been last on the to-do list. Their goal has been to finalize the PvE story and gameplay and add casual PvP afterwards. PvP will have some balancing tweaks to it in order to tame down things like crowd control and most likely some of the really high damage abilities. It won't be all that balanced though, and it won't be extremely competitive. Welcome to Diablo 3.
Not impossible to do, not at all. When you have a revenue stream like blizzards "impossible is nothing".
Also look at GW2 balance and say it's not possible?
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
To the 'PvP'ers are not the minority' comment, you're actually wrong. Blizzard actually did polls to find out what players preferred. If you also look at Mysts of Pandaria, Blizzard has stopped focusing on PvP as a primary goal as well (just look at the talent changes, many are overpowered in PvP). Blizzard has decided to focus their RPG's on the original goal of their RPG's...the story. They don't want to have characters inhibited just because abilities would be overpowered in PvP.
I honestly don't understand why its so hard for people to actually read and understand what I've been saying...Diablo 3 is a single player online hack and slash RPG with multiplayer and casual PvP components. It is not a PvP game with RPG components. If you want a PvP focused game, choose another game. Blizzard has made their intentions very clear, the majority of the community has sided with Blizzards decisions, and we're not likely to see the situation change...so why make demands?
Blizzard is shying away from MMO pvp because GW2 is hitting the scene and they are bleeding subs everyday. MoP, might as well call it the pokemon expansion.
and not once did i make demands in anything i said.
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
D2 Dueling, WoW PvP eSport, SC1 eSport of a nation? SC2, eSport of a nation? WC3 eSport, which then leads to the creation of DotA, which leads to the creation of a new genre of PvP games known as MOBA. The ripple effect creates LoL eSport (although a joke) HoN, DotA and DotA 2 and soon Blizzard DotA
SC and Warcraft are irrelevent. They are different series, designed to be an esport. That's the point of having multiple series- so you can appeal to different player types. Saying Diablo 3 should have a strong PvP focus because Starcraft II does, would be like saying "Capcom should make Megamax XXXIII a tournament fighter, because street fighter was great."
If something is a direct sequel, with an actual sequel number, it should be a continuation. It should follow the design principles and focus of the series. In Diablo, development focus has been very much PvM. In Diablo I and II, a PvM was designed, and then a "Hostile" button was added for dueling, and that was pretty much that. But people enjoyed it. The point is that you don't have to have a highly tuned, perfectly balanced, PvP focused system, to make PvP an interesting element of the game.
Even if BLizzard decided to balance PvP seperately, I think people underestimate how much effort it would take. Look at Starcraft II. There are three races. Each are capable of building several units and several upgrades. Balancing all of it was probably a major part of the development. Now look at Diablo 3, with 5 classes, a crazy number of skills, then each can be runed, then gear that dertmines the strength of the rune effect. modifies the attack rate and damage, changes all your stats, etc, etc. Balancing that specifically for competition would be a massive undertaking, probably worse than the entire balancing phase of Starcraft II development.
Blizzard does not have unlimited resources. And think about this. This is not a subscription game. Blizzard takes in the initial sale price and RMAH fees , then they are responsiblle for tuning PvM, providing server space, security and hack ressistance. On top of that, they will be planing the expansion. Adding "seperately balance PvP to competition level tuning" to the list seems a bit unreasonable. It has taken so many years to develop this game. Do we want expansions and fixes delayed because the Diablo team is basically juggling resources to balance PvM and PvP at the same? It would be nice to have the best of everything but in the real world, you have to pick your focus and do it well.
D2 Dueling, WoW PvP eSport, SC1 eSport of a nation? SC2, eSport of a nation? WC3 eSport, which then leads to the creation of DotA, which leads to the creation of a new genre of PvP games known as MOBA. The ripple effect creates LoL eSport (although a joke) HoN, DotA and DotA 2 and soon Blizzard DotA
SC and Warcraft are irrelevent. They are different series, designed to be an esport. That's the point of having multiple series- so you can appeal to different player types. Saying Diablo 3 should have a strong PvP focus because Starcraft II does, would be like saying "Capcom should make Megamax XXXIII a tournament fighter, because street fighter was great."
If something is a direct sequel, with an actual sequel number, it should be a continuation. It should follow the design principles and focus of the series. In Diablo, development focus has been very much PvM. In Diablo I and II, a PvM was designed, and then a "Hostile" button was added for dueling, and that was pretty much that. But people enjoyed it. The point is that you don't have to have a highly tuned, perfectly balanced, PvP focused system, to make PvP an interesting element of the game.
Even if BLizzard decided to balance PvP seperately, I think people underestimate how much effort it would take. Look at Starcraft II. There are three races. Each are capable of building several units and several upgrades. Balancing all of it was probably a major part of the development. Now look at Diablo 3, with 5 classes, a crazy number of skills, then each can be runed, then gear that dertmines the strength of the rune effect. modifies the attack rate and damage, changes all your stats, etc, etc. Balancing that specifically for competition would be a massive undertaking, probably worse than the entire balancing phase of Starcraft II development.
Blizzard does not have unlimited resources. And think about this. This is not a subscription game. Blizzard takes in the initial sale price and RMAH fees , then they are responsiblle for tuning PvM, providing server space, security and hack ressistance. On top of that, they will be planing the expansion. Adding "seperately balance PvP to competition level tuning" to the list seems a bit unreasonable. It has taken so many years to develop this game. Do we want expansions and fixes delayed because the Diablo team is basically juggling resources to balance PvM and PvP at the same? It would be nice to have the best of everything but in the real world, you have to pick your focus and do it well.
Way to take what I said out of context? I was saying, Blizzard has a history of making better PvP than they do PvE, this was a direct response to "PvPers are a minority and their cries fuck up balance of everything PvE related qqqqq"
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
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Actually is Blizzard and non-pvpers gain, YOUR loss. Don't get it twisted.
Customizable Arena options for private matches - Game types (FFA, Teams, 2 v 3, ect) - Changing the time limit - custom respawn times (instant, XX seconds, none) - other options I can't think of right now.
World PvP option (D2 Style) - Allow world PvP as a game option during creation.
Group/Party vs Group/Party - Able to selectively choose if you want to take XXX to the arena/dual/game.
Statistics (toggleable) - Kills, deaths, highest burst damage, most players killed in a life, ect.
Guild/Clan Flags - Ability to show your guild/clan name on your flag.
Wishful thinking:
Wagers - A safe way to bet on duels (it is going to happen either way right? Cough Cough RMAH logic).
Nonsense:
Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument. - And no you don't need to be inside of an arena for skills to be balanced, even in D2 they had ways of balancing skills on players.
Ladders - Nobody mentioned ladders on the pvp side, statistics does not equal ladders.
You have no right to demand anything... especially related to PvP. Anything blizzard does or gives for PvP is a gift to you as pvp is not required in diablo3 anyways.
i dont think he personally was demanding, just stating what we"the people" have ask for in the past in general.
Customizable Arena: Arena customization isn't likely to happen to the degree you want due to the development time needed. I'm honestly not sure we'll even see prearranged team vs team PvP. The reason again comes down to the core reason Blizzard isn't adding many competitive PvP features. They don't want to officially support creating any form of eSport.
World PvP/Group PvP: There are no game lists in which to be able to choose a game running world PvP or not. In addition, what benefit would this provide to the majority of players? I could see them adding an in-world arena where people are flagged for PvP upon entering it. This would allow for people to make up their own rules for PvP, but not create many demands on Blizzard for support.
Statistics: What benefit would this have to the majority of players? All I can see complex statistics doing is leading to more elitist behavoirs, insulting players who do worse, etc.
Clans: I agree here. Clans would be beneficial to PvP and PvE alike and be a nice addition to the game.
Wagers: There are a bunch of legal issues to this. Gambling laws (as gold can be traded for cash, it becomes equal to cash in some cases) specifically would be a huge hurdle.
Balance: Not likely to be balanced beyond crowd control duration, player damage, etc. Which means many skills will still be vastly overpowered when used against players. Since Jay also stated that he doesn't want diminishing returns either, stun lock will still be possible, slow lock, etc.
Ladders: Not going to be added according to Jay. Ladders are a competitive PvP statistic that goes against the casual PvP design they are shooting for. Again, ladders seem to only end adding fuel for elitist behavior (I'm higher on the ladder so you're a noob, etc). I'm curious how this kind of behavior is good for the community?
The idea that PvP is a vital part of Diablo 2 as the thread's creator described is absolutely false. PvP was almost an afterthought. All they did for PvP was was allow a person to go "hostile" at level nine, and a person could also go hostile at level nine allowing them to fight. The only award for fighting was looting the corpse of the looser and collecting their ear. That was it. Now one "could' say that if they don't like it, don't participate, but if you were on a public server and someone wanted to go hostile and others didn't, they would start trolling, and annoying the piss out of everyone involved. This was one of the many reasons I didn't play PvP and was reluctant to play online at all. PVP HAS NEVER BEEN THE FOCUS OF DIABLO! PvE has been the focus. Period. That is the end of the conversation, and the community's course of conversation is evidence of that fact. If YOU as the player put more emphasis on PvP that was your prerogative, but it was never a major policy of Blizzard, Blizzard North or any of the designers at the time, and Jay Wilson and the current design team have decided to continue that tradition. I for one am glad they have taken this route of separation between PvP and PvE for the Game. It does suck that it wont' be released with ship but it will be in the first patch as Blizzard has said, and frankly the thread creator is only speaking form his very limited experience and honestly doesn't know what he is talking about.
"Balance - Not many are expecting this, actually nobody is except the PvMers useing it as a counter aurgument."
People, listen....WE DO NOT EXPECT OR NEED BALANCE, WE ALSO DO NOT EXPECT OR NEED ESPORTS SUPPORT OR MENTALITY. I don't see where you could still think we do after we have stated this over a dozen times at least in this thread alone.
So let me get this straight, because you mistakenly believe that PvP is absolutely necessary to make Diablo 3 fun, I should go and play Torchlight with Skype? Maybe you should just go play MW3 like all the other morons who think that is a great game simply because it has a new cover and stay the hell away from my Diablo. The idea skills wont be rebalanced at all without PvP is idiotic and ignorant. They will be constantly updating the game as they did with D2. All we want is PvP to be separate from PvE, which is exactly what we are getting, so we don't have jackasses ruining our fun by constantly trolling for duals.
Moreover, the idea that Diablo 3 without patches and balance is pointless, is flawed. As I have said, it will be patched and balanced to remove exploits, and to make sure all the characters are equally viable. The point of the game isn't actually the story, although I"m looking forward to it. The point is the circular formula of killing monsters to get better loot so I can kill more monsters. And if you think that is pointless then maybe you have missed the point of Diablo.
Honestly I think it would be interesting if Diablo PvP became balanced, and even if it made a run at E-Sports. That's something I could get into, so long as it has ABSOLUTELY no effect on PvE or PvM, whatever you want to call it.
I think you're missing one key factor...those of us defending PvE actually have some interest in casual PvP as well. We're not saying there should be no PvP. What we're saying is that they should not balance the game with PvP as a focus. We want to see the game maintain a focus on story and bashing monsters, like its always been with the Diablo series.
I look forward to the Arena, it sounds like it'll be a lot of fun.
The reason we cannot have more PvP features beyond Arena really boils down to this...Any features that give the impression that Diablo 3 PvP is an eSport would go against Blizzards decision to not support eSport PvP in Diablo 3. I understand why you guys want rankings, ladders, wagering, custom matches, etc. However, those kinds of features are primary features for eSport level PvP play. They aren't needed in a more casual PvP environment at all. Since Diablo 3 is focusing on such an environment, those features don't fit into Diablo 3.
It really isn't about what you want, or what I want...Blizzard made its decision for the direction of the game. If that means the game is not for you, then don't play it. Demanding that they change their entire design decision just because you want it, is just silly.
Thats not the PvP players fault, thats the game developers fault for not making abilities behave different in pve and pvp.
Ability X Does 100 dmg and does and 60% slow for 5 seconds PVE
Ability X does 80 dmg and does a 60% slow for 3 seconds PvP
holy shit, the ability to balance, without PvE effecting pvp balance.
the problem is blizzard thinks that their avg user base is too stupid to comprehend and excel having abilities perform 2 different ways (which is true) and that they have become too lazy to implement this balance (in wow)
In a dev interview they said they wanted to have abilities perform 2 different ways based on if you're in pvp or pve for d3, thats probly whats taking them so long. Because they slacked off with re balancing WoW this way, when it came to d3, this is the first stab at it.
PvE was never affected by PvP in rift, now you're talking out of your ass. PvP suffered for PvE for the longest time, still slightly now.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
D2 Dueling, WoW PvP eSport, SC1 eSport of a nation? SC2, eSport of a nation? WC3 eSport, which then leads to the creation of DotA, which leads to the creation of a new genre of PvP games known as MOBA. The ripple effect creates LoL eSport (although a joke) HoN, DotA and DotA 2 and soon Blizzard DotA
WoWs raid content has gotten progressively more stale? SC2 campaign was good, but not enough to dump more than 1-2 plays, WC3 campaign was good, but not enough to dump more than 1-2 plays on.
Blizzard has shown with their games they are able to create PvP magic, actually they do way better at creating PvP than they do at PvE, at least thats what the studio has shown over the last couple years.
So please, dont be one of those ignorant people that say "pvpers are a local minority". Their voice resonates quite loudly at blizz HQ
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
You still seem to be missing a very specific issue with the idea of balancing both PvE and PvP completely separated that I've touched on a few times in this thread now. Blizzard doesn't have infinite resources. What you're essentially asking Blizzard to do is make two versions of Diablo 3 that are similar but distinctly different and somehow manage to still provide continual content for both. To do that they would need a PvE team and a PvP team, each developing content. The investment would be huge, and would only appeal to a minor subset of their players...how is that a good idea?
To be honest, why it likely 'took so long' is that its gotten the least amount of development attention. It has always kind of been last on the to-do list. Their goal has been to finalize the PvE story and gameplay and add casual PvP afterwards. PvP will have some balancing tweaks to it in order to tame down things like crowd control and most likely some of the really high damage abilities. It won't be all that balanced though, and it won't be extremely competitive. Welcome to Diablo 3.
Not impossible to do, not at all. When you have a revenue stream like blizzards "impossible is nothing".
Also look at GW2 balance and say it's not possible?
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I honestly don't understand why its so hard for people to actually read and understand what I've been saying...Diablo 3 is a single player online hack and slash RPG with multiplayer and casual PvP components. It is not a PvP game with RPG components. If you want a PvP focused game, choose another game. Blizzard has made their intentions very clear, the majority of the community has sided with Blizzards decisions, and we're not likely to see the situation change...so why make demands?
and not once did i make demands in anything i said.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
SC and Warcraft are irrelevent. They are different series, designed to be an esport. That's the point of having multiple series- so you can appeal to different player types. Saying Diablo 3 should have a strong PvP focus because Starcraft II does, would be like saying "Capcom should make Megamax XXXIII a tournament fighter, because street fighter was great."
If something is a direct sequel, with an actual sequel number, it should be a continuation. It should follow the design principles and focus of the series. In Diablo, development focus has been very much PvM. In Diablo I and II, a PvM was designed, and then a "Hostile" button was added for dueling, and that was pretty much that. But people enjoyed it. The point is that you don't have to have a highly tuned, perfectly balanced, PvP focused system, to make PvP an interesting element of the game.
Even if BLizzard decided to balance PvP seperately, I think people underestimate how much effort it would take. Look at Starcraft II. There are three races. Each are capable of building several units and several upgrades. Balancing all of it was probably a major part of the development. Now look at Diablo 3, with 5 classes, a crazy number of skills, then each can be runed, then gear that dertmines the strength of the rune effect. modifies the attack rate and damage, changes all your stats, etc, etc. Balancing that specifically for competition would be a massive undertaking, probably worse than the entire balancing phase of Starcraft II development.
Blizzard does not have unlimited resources. And think about this. This is not a subscription game. Blizzard takes in the initial sale price and RMAH fees , then they are responsiblle for tuning PvM, providing server space, security and hack ressistance. On top of that, they will be planing the expansion. Adding "seperately balance PvP to competition level tuning" to the list seems a bit unreasonable. It has taken so many years to develop this game. Do we want expansions and fixes delayed because the Diablo team is basically juggling resources to balance PvM and PvP at the same? It would be nice to have the best of everything but in the real world, you have to pick your focus and do it well.
Way to take what I said out of context? I was saying, Blizzard has a history of making better PvP than they do PvE, this was a direct response to "PvPers are a minority and their cries fuck up balance of everything PvE related qqqqq"
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."