With all of the discussions on itemization coming in the next patch, I wanted to throw out an idea and see how everyone else felt about it.
What if the 25% cap on item-based movement speed was removed from the game? I think a few good things could come from this change.
1. It could open up new builds.
There are some builds that could become more popular if the character had more ability to move.
2. It could increase gold/hr and items/hr.
You can move faster, so you can kill more stuff in the same amount of time.
3. It makes the player think more about itemization.
The player will need to evaluate if the increase in speed really increases their efficiency in farming or if it hurts them by giving up some other stat that could be giving them defense or DPS.
4. It picks up the pace of the game.
This is the biggest one for me because I feel that the game can get too slow at times. I really feel this when I get to the larger maps and are working on things like keywarden runs.
That's my suggestion. Would you all like to see the movement speed cap removed?
2) Increase items/hour? Yeah, it will, but only for the "rich" people that go with 48 MS on gear. The poor can't afford to drop lots of EHP/DPS just to get 3 additional MS items. It will just increase the gap between the poor and the rich.
3) Think about itemization? No, it makes players think less. Get Inna's Temperance, Lacuni Prowlers, Tyrael's Might, and MS on boots. It removes the "think about your gear" part from 3 additional slots for many builds and will make the few MS items mandatory.
4) The game is actually fast enough as it is with 24% MS. If you want to go faster, almost every class can do that - Vault on DH, Teleport on wizard (especially paired with CM I can cross areas like in D2), TR monk, WW barb... it's already faster than every other game in this genre I know. Even faster would cause seizures if you're playing a TR monk with 48% MS on gear. (Or imagine with the max possible 94% MS - game-breaking.)
I actually want to see more caps (lower CC cap, introduce IAS and CHD cap) such that people start to THINK about gear and it's not like "trifecta? yes; no trifecta? vendor".
I think the point he's trying to make is, if itemization is going to be how they're explaining it, you'll find less, but better items. Moving faster would bring more kills, thus more items. Otherwise people will barely be finding anything as it will stand. I can see where he's coming from, and no cap would be fine, but you could stack too much for what it's worth, I think.. if the cap was higher to allow 3 items to be relevent, then maybe that'd be worth it. Moving too fast would probably suck, but alittle faster wouldn't hurt
3) Think about itemization? No, it makes players think less. Get Inna's Temperance, Lacuni Prowlers, Tyrael's Might, and MS on boots. It removes the "think about your gear" part from 3 additional slots for many builds and will make the few MS items mandatory.
I would even like to see a cap on movement speed from skills, not just gear, but I won't try and go too far ahead here.
Ah you guys give me faith that the community isn't as bad as I think it is. We definitely need LESS movement speed because it's one of the most-mandatory stats out there and that is not a good thing at all.
I'd rather have them increase the base movement speed by 25%, and remove the movement from WOTB.
The game feels really slow when playing without WOTB, or sprint!
I'd like to see them up the base movement speed by 10% and allow you only 15% more from skills AND items. The massive movespeed gap between certain players (rich and poor) and certain specs (WW/TR and everything else) is borderline infuriating given that movement speed is so vital to effective farming.
I am ok with increasing movement speed bonus to 36% or 48% IF movement speed can roll on all item slots (like MF or GF). That way it acts like hit/expertise rating in wow, where you want to have on your gears, but not too much.
Actually, depending on what the desired build is, having more movement speed could open up that build to be more viable for the players. Ranged would especially benefit from more movement speed for hit and run/kite builds. Making us all slow as snails (see below) doesn't promote build diversity in the slightest. Opening up that aspect can.
2) Increase items/hour? Yeah, it will, but only for the "rich" people that go with 48 MS on gear. The poor can't afford to drop lots of EHP/DPS just to get 3 additional MS items. It will just increase the gap between the poor and the rich.
So just because you think only the "rich" might have access to it (hint: that isn't the case with proper itemization as seen in Diablo 2) is a good reason to not have it? By that logic you would exclude 99% of what is in Diablo 3 today just on that one criteria. And it's a staw man argument on top of that.
3) Think about itemization? No, it makes players think less. Get Inna's Temperance, Lacuni Prowlers, Tyrael's Might, and MS on boots. It removes the "think about your gear" part from 3 additional slots for many builds and will make the few MS items mandatory.
That's a problem with itemiztion, not movement speed itself. The fact that MS is only available on boots inherently (and even only as a possibility there) and on certain legendaries after that is the real issue. Affixes should not have been made Legendary Exclusive. That's part of where the "X and only X is BiS" problem came from (the other part is the trifecta mechanic). Eliminate the affix-lockouts on rares and you kill off that part of the problem right then and there.
4) The game is actually fast enough as it is with 24% MS. If you want to go faster, almost every class can do that - Vault on DH, Teleport on wizard (especially paired with CM I can cross areas like in D2), TR monk, WW barb... it's already faster than every other game in this genre I know. Even faster would cause seizures if you're playing a TR monk with 48% MS on gear. (Or imagine with the max possible 94% MS - game-breaking.)
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking. Anything other than my TR Monk feels like they're trying to run through molasses. Even the "small" difference between 9% MS and 24% MS (my HC Demon Hunter vs. my SC Demon Hunter) feels ridiculously slow to the point I actually dislike playing the slower character. Even with how small the maps are vs. Diablo 2's maps, the base run speed is just god awful slow and you know it. And it's been near the top of complaints about the gameplay since launch, so obviously the players don't like feeling like a snail.
I actually want to see more caps (lower CC cap, introduce IAS and CHD cap) such that people start to THINK about gear and it's not like "trifecta? yes; no trifecta? vendor".
Adding a ton of caps doesn't make the player think more. It just makes it such that they're like "get to the cap and then...whatever." That's pretty much the problem World of Warcraft's secondary stats have right now. The difference there is that they use diminishing returns to make the problem more complex as well as that there are soft and hard caps for many stats based on differing scenarios (raid buffs like heroism/time warp vs. not having said raid buffs). Diablo 3 has no such counterpart for soft/hard caps.
The one that that really does need a cap though is CHD, since that is the sole reason MP levels have stupidly insane HP scaling for monsters (which also affects Reflects Damage's cap since that is based on the monster's current HP at any given time). Cap CHD and you've brought the game to a point where it can be balanced around build type, not just skyrocketing damage (which only certain builds can achieve, thus further limiting build diversity in itself).
As for the server de-sync issue, Blizzard appears to have solved that one for the most part. This is not the same as rubberbanding, which still is a major problem. I have a TR Monk that can sustain 59% MS and hit 84% during times when she's buffed with Fleeting and I don't de-sync with her like players used to at launch. The downside to playing that character is that when I go to any other character, I feel like I'm playing in slow motion again, which tells me that the MS limitations in Diablo 3 are just horrific.
Players should have the ability to choose whether or not they want to sacrifice that affix slot for more speed. Sadly all your solution does is limit what affixes do and make them all equally unattractive. That's pretty much the opposite of where the developers need to go where more affixes are wanted than just the trifecta.
That's a problem with itemiztion, not movement speed itself. The fact that MS is only available on boots inherently (and even only as a possibility there) and on certain legendaries after that is the real issue. Affixes should not have been made Legendary Exclusive. That's part of where the "X and only X is BiS" problem came from (the other part is the trifecta mechanic). Eliminate the affix-lockouts on rares and you kill off that part of the problem right then and there.
Allowing MS on every item would just require you to have X items that have MS so that you can hit the cap.
Sure you could choose WHICH items I guess... but your gearing is certainly limited. This isn't an itemization issue, it's that MS is just TOO GOOD of a farming stat such that no matter how you let it roll on items it's still going to be right at the top of stats people look for.
In light of that, more restrictions are the only reasonable solution otherwise you just start rolling MS on every slot and everyone has MS in 6+ slots. Wooo... great customization? People complain about Crit Chance and Crit damage. All you do by letting MS roll on every item is further the trifecta/quadfecta problems the game already has. Pouring gasoline on a raging inferno isn't going to put the fire out.
I have a TR Monk that can sustain 59% MS and hit 84% during times when she's buffed with Fleeting and I don't de-sync with her like players used to at launch. The downside to playing that character is that when I go to any other character, I feel like I'm playing in slow motion again, which tells me that the MS limitations in Diablo 3 are just horrific.
Really? It doesn't tell you that allowing a spec to hit 59% sustained movement speed is actually what's broken? The game only FEELS slow because certain specs have such ridiculous MS. When I play my WD with 12% MS and I get on my DH (who has 0%) the game doesn't feel like slow motion. Why? Because 59% is FUCKING BROKEN. The issue is the huge amount of MS some classes get... not the fact that 0% is too slow. Besides, if they can limit MS somehow, then they can just buff the base movement speed til it "feels" right. They can't do that when people are rocking 75% MS though.
The GAP is too big. Your monk is direct proof of that. Movement speed from items/spells is TOO POWERFUL compared to base movement speed. You can't fix that by creating, quite literally, a total free-for-all with MS.
There's a reason fleeting shrines are the best shrines out there.
Allowing MS on every item would just require you to have X items that have MS so that you can hit the cap.
Sure you could choose WHICH items I guess... but your gearing is certainly limited. This isn't an itemization issue, it's that MS is just TOO GOOD of a farming stat such that no matter how you let it roll on items it's still going to be right at the top of stats people look for.
In light of that, more restrictions are the only reasonable solution otherwise you just start rolling MS on every slot and everyone has MS in 6+ slots. Wooo... great customization? People complain about Crit Chance and Crit damage. All you do by letting MS roll on every item is further the trifecta/quadfecta problems the game already has. Pouring gasoline on a raging inferno isn't going to put the fire out.
It is actually an itemization issue because there are just too few affixes worth having right now. With more useful affixes overall, a player would still have to choose a balance since there are limits to the number of affix slots available. Now, this wasn't an issue in Diablo 2 because there were a fair number of useful affixes that synergized very well with the skills and abilities the classes had. That's what is lacking in Diablo 3's itemization. Fewer viable affixes = no real customization or choice, which is exactly what we have now.
Really? It doesn't tell you that allowing a spec to hit 59% sustained movement speed is actually what's broken? The game only FEELS slow because certain specs have such ridiculous MS. When I play my WD with 12% MS and I get on my DH (who has 0%) the game doesn't feel like slow motion. Why? Because 59% is FUCKING BROKEN. The issue is the huge amount of MS some classes get... not the fact that 0% is too slow. Besides, if they can limit MS somehow, then they can just buff the base movement speed til it "feels" right. They can't do that when people are rocking 75% MS though.
The GAP is too big. Your monk is direct proof of that. Movement speed from items/spells is TOO POWERFUL compared to base movement speed. You can't fix that by creating, quite literally, a total free-for-all with MS.
There's a reason fleeting shrines are the best shrines out there.
The reason MS appears to be too powerful is precisely because it's just so pathetically slow in the first place. If the current cap were made the baseline, then the 25% cap would actually make sense. It would also allow for phasing out the Fleeting shrine, which was brought in precisely because base MS is just abysmal, and make it so the devs could create a new shrine in its place that has a different effect.
The reason Fleeting is so good is because it can bypass the cap, and being the most coveted shrine of all is a pretty good indication that the devs got the base MS values completely wrong. Even Diablo 2's base MS was faster than Diablo 3's is. It's definitely too slow.
Now, it doesn't need to be ultra insane like my TR Monk's 84% speed (with Fleeting active), but it sure as hell needs to be more than we have now. Making MS able to roll on any item isn't a bad thing. If the base movement speed is brought up to the current cap and the cap itself remains unchanged, then players wouldn't have to use X item and X item only for their MS affix and can more readily mix and match from whatever they find. It sucks unbelievably how I have to go with Lacuni or Inna's Temperance and sacrifice a ton of capability just for that movement speed increase right now. Why not allow MS to roll on say a rare helm where if I find it alongside some decent stats I'm no longer limited to the Lacuni where I give up a ton of DPS in the process. It shouldn't matter what item I get the MS from - I'm going to want it no matter what because faster = more fun, but at least with it (and other affixes) not being tied to specific Legendary items I'll have some choice of how I can proceed instead of being shoehorned into the same BiS item as every other player.
There is zero fun in running so slowly that I am constantly like "argh am I there YET?" And this isn't World of Warcraft - there's no real reason to limit the speed we run at if everything else is balanced decently.
I don't think we really need a speed cap. Who cares if you can run super fast that actually sounds like a lot of fun.
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Now, it doesn't need to be ultra insane like my TR Monk's 84% speed (with Fleeting active), but it sure as hell needs to be more than we have now.
<snip>
There is zero fun in running so slowly that I am constantly like "argh am I there YET?" And this isn't World of Warcraft - there's no real reason to limit the speed we run at if everything else is balanced decently.
Right. That's exactly why you're wrong!
The baseline needs to be moved up and the VARIANCE needs to be severely reigned in.
The problem is that 0% sucks balls when compared with 59%. There is no other problem. It's a matter of completely fucked-up perspective. If you can drive 125mph on the highway, sure 55 is slow. The answer isn't just to go Autobahn on every road, though. If you made MS available on every slot certain slots would HAVE to roll MS. Off the top of my head I can think of boots, bracers, shoulders, legs. Some people might squeeze it in on belts and others might try to squeeze it in on rings.
You say this is because there are "no other good properties" yet you also advocate capping critical hit damage. Why one but not the other? Surely if the solution is just to introduce competing item properties then you can "fix" critical hit damage in the same manner... right? The problem isn't that there are "too few" good properties. The problem is that there is no way that certain properties can compete with others. How do you make life/sec compete with movement speed? How do you make life on kill compete with critical chance? How do you make health globe/potion bonus compete with primary stats? You can't.
The real problem is that offensive stats almost universally trump defensive stats until you hit the very very very high-end gear. Movement speed is arguably the most important offensive stat out there. Unless you can somehow balance movement speed against life/sec or vitality it will do the very same thing that the other offensive statistics do - dominate. Having a hardcap is the most obvious way to deal with this.
Imagine if 100% were changed so that it's about where 115% is right now and that MS were hard-capped at 15% after that. The game wouldn't feel "slow" for anyone because no one would have an unfathomable amount of MS such that lower levels felt poor. But the low end would still be buffed. In this environment you COULD roll MS on various slots because, basically, you get 1 MS item. The property can't come to dominate, like it will if it's left unchecked.
Simply removing the cap and throwing it on every item however... well it's still like throwing gas canisters at a burning building.
You say this is because there are "no other good properties" yet you also advocate capping critical hit damage. Why one but not the other? Surely if the solution is just to introduce competing item properties then you can "fix" critical hit damage in the same manner... right? The problem isn't that there are "too few" good properties. The problem is that there is no way that certain properties can compete with others. How do you make life/sec compete with movement speed? How do you make life on kill compete with critical chance? How do you make health globe/potion bonus compete with primary stats? You can't.
CHD is a special case in that it has reprocussions outside of the norm in terms of design. It is singularly responsible for Monster Power's absurd HP scaling, since without the huge amounts of CHD it is possible to get in concert with CHC, the monster HP levels could be tuned around that cap assuming a +/- variance for different build makeups.
Run speed on the other hand affects your travel time, not your direct combat damage. Its only other effect is enhancing your ability to kite or get out of / escape The Bad™. Right now, base movement speed is actually so slow that if a melee is fighting a Grotesque family monster and triggers the explosion phase, they're very likely to get caught in the explosion because they can't run out of it fast enough more often than not. And speaking of slow - I timed how long it takes to run from the stash chest in New Tristram to the Ferryman with zero run speed boosts. 22.3 seconds, using the most direct run path. That's just plain absurd.
The real problem is that offensive stats almost universally trump defensive stats until you hit the very very very high-end gear. Movement speed is arguably the most important offensive stat out there. Unless you can somehow balance movement speed against life/sec or vitality it will do the very same thing that the other offensive statistics do - dominate. Having a hardcap is the most obvious way to deal with this.
I hate to tell you this, but slow moving is just aggravating (and in some cases where those large radius explosions are involved, deadly). Diablo games are such where players are meant to be or feel overpowered at some point. That's the allure of the genre. This isn't an MMO where it has to be balanced like World of Warcraft is (and even that game's runspeed sucks). Diablo 2 had zero issues with a lack of runspeed cap and the ability to roll FR/W on multiple items. None. Zilch. Zippo. Nada. And it made the players actually feel alive when moving around instead of like lethargic slugs. And MS is taken to the cap now even with how slow its cap still is. Why? Because being slow blows. It wouldn't matter if every other stat was made to be godlike relative to MS - if you're slow it isn't going to matter how hard you hit since you're taking forever to get around. I'd rather drive around in a fast Halo buggy than a slow lumbering tank. So too would most players.
The only class that can reach absurd levels is the Monk, and only with a specific build (Tempest Rush: Tailwind). I usually use Tempest Rush: Northern Breeze because it allows me to regenerate spirit (or at least maintain my current level) while running around. I lose the Tailwind speed boost, but it's still OK. But even that speed boost feels just a hair faster than D2's base run speed, so that should tell you quite a bit about how badly done D3's run speed values are.
And so what if a few builds can fly through places? TR Monks must kill monsters on the first or second (via tornadoes) hit otherwise they've accomplished nothing but knocking monsters out of the way while they run amok, so there's already balance in there for that. Everybody else has to stop and shoot/attack in order to hit monsters outside of WW Barbarians. Having some nice run speed makes playing feel less like tedium and more like...action.
Ultimately, there is no need to "balance" around runspeed since it was never an issue in previous Diablo games and it wouldn't be an issue now.
I was going with No at first, but changed to No but increase the cap.
I believe that if the movement speed cap was something like 28% (instead of the current 25%) and items could roll between 9-12%, we could have a healthy decision to make on it.
I was going with No at first, but changed to No but increase the cap.
I believe that if the movement speed cap was something like 28% (instead of the current 25%) and items could roll between 9-12%, we could have a healthy decision to make on it.
Really, do you think so? I feel like every time we talk about gear options, the first thing everyone says is "get Inna's or Lacuni's as 2nd MS piece". (Exception: CMWW wizard.) The fact that you fall just 1% short of the cap makes one additional item enough. With 28% cap both Inna's and Lacuni's might become mandatory for almost everyone.
Ultimately, there is no need to "balance" around runspeed since it was never an issue in previous Diablo games and it wouldn't be an issue now.
You're only half right about that. Movement speed was a HUGE issue in D2 - just not from items - which is kinda the point I'm making here.
Sorcs with no-CD Teleport had a shit ton more movement speed than everyone else. This was broken, it was imbalanced, and it made Enigma into one of the most OP items ever. Everyone else either needed an Enigma or tons of movement speed to keep pace with a Sorc.
That is the whole problem with letting one class/spec have such an obvious advantage in movement speed. I remember everyone sitting around town while a Sorc (or Enigma-wearer) would teleport to the destination and open up a portal. Why? Because it was pointless to run there yourself. You were infinitely slower and speed matters - the game is about farming and efficiency is non-trivial.
The problem with movement speed, as Jaetch very correctly identified, is not the items per se. It's the ridiculous amount of MS that certain specs can stack on top of the item cap. If you balance that out then it becomes a lot easier to "open up" MS on items to the way D2 had it. If you continue to let specs go 30%+ beyond the cap, well you're going to continue butting into the very same issues.
Really, do you think so? I feel like every time we talk about gear options, the first thing everyone says is "get Inna's or Lacuni's as 2nd MS piece". (Exception: CMWW wizard.) The fact that you fall just 1% short of the cap makes one additional item enough. With 28% cap both Inna's and Lacuni's might become mandatory for almost everyone.
Yeah. Well, obviously we would need to have that change paired with some item changes.
Namely having more items with +movespeed that can roll a viable number of affixes (currently, the Flavor of Time can roll movespeed, but its other rolls are subpar for Inferno).
And I'm all in favor of having some slight variation in these awesome unique affixes, like Innas or Lacunis being able to roll from 10-12%.
But I guess you got the idea: of having to ask ourselves "do I want to equip another movespeed item just for the extra 5-6% movespeed"?
Most people whine like babies though when their items do not roll well, so I doubt Blizzard would follow this route. They're probably tired of kids going "wah mommy my Witching Hour is crap because it haz 8% attackspeed instead of 9%".
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What if the 25% cap on item-based movement speed was removed from the game? I think a few good things could come from this change.
1. It could open up new builds.
There are some builds that could become more popular if the character had more ability to move.
2. It could increase gold/hr and items/hr.
You can move faster, so you can kill more stuff in the same amount of time.
3. It makes the player think more about itemization.
The player will need to evaluate if the increase in speed really increases their efficiency in farming or if it hurts them by giving up some other stat that could be giving them defense or DPS.
4. It picks up the pace of the game.
This is the biggest one for me because I feel that the game can get too slow at times. I really feel this when I get to the larger maps and are working on things like keywarden runs.
That's my suggestion. Would you all like to see the movement speed cap removed?
Given the rampant inflation that already exists, wouldn't that be a bad thing?
1) More builds? I can't see that.
2) Increase items/hour? Yeah, it will, but only for the "rich" people that go with 48 MS on gear. The poor can't afford to drop lots of EHP/DPS just to get 3 additional MS items. It will just increase the gap between the poor and the rich.
3) Think about itemization? No, it makes players think less. Get Inna's Temperance, Lacuni Prowlers, Tyrael's Might, and MS on boots. It removes the "think about your gear" part from 3 additional slots for many builds and will make the few MS items mandatory.
4) The game is actually fast enough as it is with 24% MS. If you want to go faster, almost every class can do that - Vault on DH, Teleport on wizard (especially paired with CM I can cross areas like in D2), TR monk, WW barb... it's already faster than every other game in this genre I know. Even faster would cause seizures if you're playing a TR monk with 48% MS on gear. (Or imagine with the max possible 94% MS - game-breaking.)
I actually want to see more caps (lower CC cap, introduce IAS and CHD cap) such that people start to THINK about gear and it's not like "trifecta? yes; no trifecta? vendor".
Bagstone summed up the most important aspects (3&4).
They should rather do something about the speed gap between classes/builds. Perma Sprint or TR is just too good
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Absolutely, no.
I would even like to see a cap on movement speed from skills, not just gear, but I won't try and go too far ahead here.
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The game feels really slow when playing without WOTB, or sprint!
Ah you guys give me faith that the community isn't as bad as I think it is. We definitely need LESS movement speed because it's one of the most-mandatory stats out there and that is not a good thing at all.
I'd like to see them up the base movement speed by 10% and allow you only 15% more from skills AND items. The massive movespeed gap between certain players (rich and poor) and certain specs (WW/TR and everything else) is borderline infuriating given that movement speed is so vital to effective farming.
Actually, depending on what the desired build is, having more movement speed could open up that build to be more viable for the players. Ranged would especially benefit from more movement speed for hit and run/kite builds. Making us all slow as snails (see below) doesn't promote build diversity in the slightest. Opening up that aspect can.
So just because you think only the "rich" might have access to it (hint: that isn't the case with proper itemization as seen in Diablo 2) is a good reason to not have it? By that logic you would exclude 99% of what is in Diablo 3 today just on that one criteria. And it's a staw man argument on top of that.
That's a problem with itemiztion, not movement speed itself. The fact that MS is only available on boots inherently (and even only as a possibility there) and on certain legendaries after that is the real issue. Affixes should not have been made Legendary Exclusive. That's part of where the "X and only X is BiS" problem came from (the other part is the trifecta mechanic). Eliminate the affix-lockouts on rares and you kill off that part of the problem right then and there.
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking. Anything other than my TR Monk feels like they're trying to run through molasses. Even the "small" difference between 9% MS and 24% MS (my HC Demon Hunter vs. my SC Demon Hunter) feels ridiculously slow to the point I actually dislike playing the slower character. Even with how small the maps are vs. Diablo 2's maps, the base run speed is just god awful slow and you know it. And it's been near the top of complaints about the gameplay since launch, so obviously the players don't like feeling like a snail.
Adding a ton of caps doesn't make the player think more. It just makes it such that they're like "get to the cap and then...whatever." That's pretty much the problem World of Warcraft's secondary stats have right now. The difference there is that they use diminishing returns to make the problem more complex as well as that there are soft and hard caps for many stats based on differing scenarios (raid buffs like heroism/time warp vs. not having said raid buffs). Diablo 3 has no such counterpart for soft/hard caps.
The one that that really does need a cap though is CHD, since that is the sole reason MP levels have stupidly insane HP scaling for monsters (which also affects Reflects Damage's cap since that is based on the monster's current HP at any given time). Cap CHD and you've brought the game to a point where it can be balanced around build type, not just skyrocketing damage (which only certain builds can achieve, thus further limiting build diversity in itself).
As for the server de-sync issue, Blizzard appears to have solved that one for the most part. This is not the same as rubberbanding, which still is a major problem. I have a TR Monk that can sustain 59% MS and hit 84% during times when she's buffed with Fleeting and I don't de-sync with her like players used to at launch. The downside to playing that character is that when I go to any other character, I feel like I'm playing in slow motion again, which tells me that the MS limitations in Diablo 3 are just horrific.
Players should have the ability to choose whether or not they want to sacrifice that affix slot for more speed. Sadly all your solution does is limit what affixes do and make them all equally unattractive. That's pretty much the opposite of where the developers need to go where more affixes are wanted than just the trifecta.
Allowing MS on every item would just require you to have X items that have MS so that you can hit the cap.
Sure you could choose WHICH items I guess... but your gearing is certainly limited. This isn't an itemization issue, it's that MS is just TOO GOOD of a farming stat such that no matter how you let it roll on items it's still going to be right at the top of stats people look for.
In light of that, more restrictions are the only reasonable solution otherwise you just start rolling MS on every slot and everyone has MS in 6+ slots. Wooo... great customization? People complain about Crit Chance and Crit damage. All you do by letting MS roll on every item is further the trifecta/quadfecta problems the game already has. Pouring gasoline on a raging inferno isn't going to put the fire out.
Really? It doesn't tell you that allowing a spec to hit 59% sustained movement speed is actually what's broken? The game only FEELS slow because certain specs have such ridiculous MS. When I play my WD with 12% MS and I get on my DH (who has 0%) the game doesn't feel like slow motion. Why? Because 59% is FUCKING BROKEN. The issue is the huge amount of MS some classes get... not the fact that 0% is too slow. Besides, if they can limit MS somehow, then they can just buff the base movement speed til it "feels" right. They can't do that when people are rocking 75% MS though.
The GAP is too big. Your monk is direct proof of that. Movement speed from items/spells is TOO POWERFUL compared to base movement speed. You can't fix that by creating, quite literally, a total free-for-all with MS.
There's a reason fleeting shrines are the best shrines out there.
It is actually an itemization issue because there are just too few affixes worth having right now. With more useful affixes overall, a player would still have to choose a balance since there are limits to the number of affix slots available. Now, this wasn't an issue in Diablo 2 because there were a fair number of useful affixes that synergized very well with the skills and abilities the classes had. That's what is lacking in Diablo 3's itemization. Fewer viable affixes = no real customization or choice, which is exactly what we have now.
The reason MS appears to be too powerful is precisely because it's just so pathetically slow in the first place. If the current cap were made the baseline, then the 25% cap would actually make sense. It would also allow for phasing out the Fleeting shrine, which was brought in precisely because base MS is just abysmal, and make it so the devs could create a new shrine in its place that has a different effect.
The reason Fleeting is so good is because it can bypass the cap, and being the most coveted shrine of all is a pretty good indication that the devs got the base MS values completely wrong. Even Diablo 2's base MS was faster than Diablo 3's is. It's definitely too slow.
Now, it doesn't need to be ultra insane like my TR Monk's 84% speed (with Fleeting active), but it sure as hell needs to be more than we have now. Making MS able to roll on any item isn't a bad thing. If the base movement speed is brought up to the current cap and the cap itself remains unchanged, then players wouldn't have to use X item and X item only for their MS affix and can more readily mix and match from whatever they find. It sucks unbelievably how I have to go with Lacuni or Inna's Temperance and sacrifice a ton of capability just for that movement speed increase right now. Why not allow MS to roll on say a rare helm where if I find it alongside some decent stats I'm no longer limited to the Lacuni where I give up a ton of DPS in the process. It shouldn't matter what item I get the MS from - I'm going to want it no matter what because faster = more fun, but at least with it (and other affixes) not being tied to specific Legendary items I'll have some choice of how I can proceed instead of being shoehorned into the same BiS item as every other player.
There is zero fun in running so slowly that I am constantly like "argh am I there YET?" And this isn't World of Warcraft - there's no real reason to limit the speed we run at if everything else is balanced decently.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Right. That's exactly why you're wrong!
The baseline needs to be moved up and the VARIANCE needs to be severely reigned in.
The problem is that 0% sucks balls when compared with 59%. There is no other problem. It's a matter of completely fucked-up perspective. If you can drive 125mph on the highway, sure 55 is slow. The answer isn't just to go Autobahn on every road, though. If you made MS available on every slot certain slots would HAVE to roll MS. Off the top of my head I can think of boots, bracers, shoulders, legs. Some people might squeeze it in on belts and others might try to squeeze it in on rings.
You say this is because there are "no other good properties" yet you also advocate capping critical hit damage. Why one but not the other? Surely if the solution is just to introduce competing item properties then you can "fix" critical hit damage in the same manner... right? The problem isn't that there are "too few" good properties. The problem is that there is no way that certain properties can compete with others. How do you make life/sec compete with movement speed? How do you make life on kill compete with critical chance? How do you make health globe/potion bonus compete with primary stats? You can't.
The real problem is that offensive stats almost universally trump defensive stats until you hit the very very very high-end gear. Movement speed is arguably the most important offensive stat out there. Unless you can somehow balance movement speed against life/sec or vitality it will do the very same thing that the other offensive statistics do - dominate. Having a hardcap is the most obvious way to deal with this.
Imagine if 100% were changed so that it's about where 115% is right now and that MS were hard-capped at 15% after that. The game wouldn't feel "slow" for anyone because no one would have an unfathomable amount of MS such that lower levels felt poor. But the low end would still be buffed. In this environment you COULD roll MS on various slots because, basically, you get 1 MS item. The property can't come to dominate, like it will if it's left unchecked.
Simply removing the cap and throwing it on every item however... well it's still like throwing gas canisters at a burning building.
CHD is a special case in that it has reprocussions outside of the norm in terms of design. It is singularly responsible for Monster Power's absurd HP scaling, since without the huge amounts of CHD it is possible to get in concert with CHC, the monster HP levels could be tuned around that cap assuming a +/- variance for different build makeups.
Run speed on the other hand affects your travel time, not your direct combat damage. Its only other effect is enhancing your ability to kite or get out of / escape The Bad™. Right now, base movement speed is actually so slow that if a melee is fighting a Grotesque family monster and triggers the explosion phase, they're very likely to get caught in the explosion because they can't run out of it fast enough more often than not. And speaking of slow - I timed how long it takes to run from the stash chest in New Tristram to the Ferryman with zero run speed boosts. 22.3 seconds, using the most direct run path. That's just plain absurd.
I hate to tell you this, but slow moving is just aggravating (and in some cases where those large radius explosions are involved, deadly). Diablo games are such where players are meant to be or feel overpowered at some point. That's the allure of the genre. This isn't an MMO where it has to be balanced like World of Warcraft is (and even that game's runspeed sucks). Diablo 2 had zero issues with a lack of runspeed cap and the ability to roll FR/W on multiple items. None. Zilch. Zippo. Nada. And it made the players actually feel alive when moving around instead of like lethargic slugs. And MS is taken to the cap now even with how slow its cap still is. Why? Because being slow blows. It wouldn't matter if every other stat was made to be godlike relative to MS - if you're slow it isn't going to matter how hard you hit since you're taking forever to get around. I'd rather drive around in a fast Halo buggy than a slow lumbering tank. So too would most players.
The only class that can reach absurd levels is the Monk, and only with a specific build (Tempest Rush: Tailwind). I usually use Tempest Rush: Northern Breeze because it allows me to regenerate spirit (or at least maintain my current level) while running around. I lose the Tailwind speed boost, but it's still OK. But even that speed boost feels just a hair faster than D2's base run speed, so that should tell you quite a bit about how badly done D3's run speed values are.
And so what if a few builds can fly through places? TR Monks must kill monsters on the first or second (via tornadoes) hit otherwise they've accomplished nothing but knocking monsters out of the way while they run amok, so there's already balance in there for that. Everybody else has to stop and shoot/attack in order to hit monsters outside of WW Barbarians. Having some nice run speed makes playing feel less like tedium and more like...action.
Ultimately, there is no need to "balance" around runspeed since it was never an issue in previous Diablo games and it wouldn't be an issue now.
I believe that if the movement speed cap was something like 28% (instead of the current 25%) and items could roll between 9-12%, we could have a healthy decision to make on it.
Really, do you think so? I feel like every time we talk about gear options, the first thing everyone says is "get Inna's or Lacuni's as 2nd MS piece". (Exception: CMWW wizard.) The fact that you fall just 1% short of the cap makes one additional item enough. With 28% cap both Inna's and Lacuni's might become mandatory for almost everyone.
I think the engine just could not handle more movement speed, to be hoenst. It's allready on its knees with the fast chars we have today.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
You're only half right about that. Movement speed was a HUGE issue in D2 - just not from items - which is kinda the point I'm making here.
Sorcs with no-CD Teleport had a shit ton more movement speed than everyone else. This was broken, it was imbalanced, and it made Enigma into one of the most OP items ever. Everyone else either needed an Enigma or tons of movement speed to keep pace with a Sorc.
That is the whole problem with letting one class/spec have such an obvious advantage in movement speed. I remember everyone sitting around town while a Sorc (or Enigma-wearer) would teleport to the destination and open up a portal. Why? Because it was pointless to run there yourself. You were infinitely slower and speed matters - the game is about farming and efficiency is non-trivial.
The problem with movement speed, as Jaetch very correctly identified, is not the items per se. It's the ridiculous amount of MS that certain specs can stack on top of the item cap. If you balance that out then it becomes a lot easier to "open up" MS on items to the way D2 had it. If you continue to let specs go 30%+ beyond the cap, well you're going to continue butting into the very same issues.
Namely having more items with +movespeed that can roll a viable number of affixes (currently, the Flavor of Time can roll movespeed, but its other rolls are subpar for Inferno).
And I'm all in favor of having some slight variation in these awesome unique affixes, like Innas or Lacunis being able to roll from 10-12%.
But I guess you got the idea: of having to ask ourselves "do I want to equip another movespeed item just for the extra 5-6% movespeed"?
Most people whine like babies though when their items do not roll well, so I doubt Blizzard would follow this route. They're probably tired of kids going "wah mommy my Witching Hour is crap because it haz 8% attackspeed instead of 9%".