Individual loot in co-op games and people stacking Magic Find
MF takes up potential item slots that could be +dmg or other useful stats. so the more magic find you have, the less utility and damage you are contributing, yet you get the most loot.
It's a recognized issue, just not one that has been attacked and a final design solution proposed/implemented.
In a game that at the end of the day pretty much comes down to collecting magical shiny stuff this seems to me to be a major mechanic that has not yet been worked out. He didn't even give us the "well have several different solutions on internal testing" line.
I was also under the impression that MF was a separate item affix/suffix slot now and did not replace other possible mods - did I miss a change or misinterpret what was originally said?
I'm sure they'll get something worked out but I'm thinking those "mid January" launches people keep suggesting are probably well in to the "wishful thinking" zone.
Yes, that was my reaction as well. Some things they seem to take forever on, worrying quite a bit about getting it just right, and then other seemingly major (to us) bits they just plan on throwing together right before launch.
Individual loot in co-op games and people stacking Magic Find
MF takes up potential item slots that could be +dmg or other useful stats. so the more magic find you have, the less utility and damage you are contributing, yet you get the most loot.
It's a recognized issue, just not one that has been attacked and a final design solution proposed/implemented.
In a game that at the end of the day pretty much comes down to collecting magical shiny stuff this seems to me to be a major mechanic that has not yet been worked out. He didn't even give us the "well have several different solutions on internal testing" line.
I was also under the impression that MF was a separate item affix/suffix slot now and did not replace other possible mods - did I miss a change or misinterpret what was originally said?
I'm sure they'll get something worked out but I'm thinking those "mid January" launches people keep suggesting are probably well in to the "wishful thinking" zone.
That is assuming they are trying to work on the problem at all.
I am willing to bet they arent. They are going to let it to go out as is, and fix it later if needed somehow.
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
I agree that this will not be fixed for launch. If you think about it, this is more a consequence of decisions made that no one actually thought would occur. And I don't think its an easy fix in any way/shape/form.
Also impact wise... I don't see too much problems since we all get our own loot. Then again I have no idea how much needed everyone needs to be optimized in Hell and Inferno.
... it can be fixed simply (like using average %MF of a group to calculate drops for everyone or something similar).
I don't see what the problem would be with averaging out the group's magic find percentages.
That is indeed an easy fix, and I agree with it. I am sure blizzard has thought of it as well, and yet they have not said anything about it. Which to me indicates that although the concept is easy, putting it in game is not.
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
I actually do not think it is a big issue at all. I feel Gold Find is much more important since I believe Crafted Gear is going to be the most sought after gear. You are likely be able to buy Magic items in Infernal and convert them to salvage. You likely need thousands of bought gear to get a rare crafting material. You still will want magic find but I feel you can be fine with a limited amount and convert the junk magic, rare, legendary gear into components.
If you are playing in a public game and do not like the killing power of the group you can always exit and find another game or play with friends.
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... it can be fixed simply (like using average %MF of a group to calculate drops for everyone or something similar).
I don't see what the problem would be with averaging out the group's magic find percentages.
If other players have a lower MF than me, they are downgrading my own drops. I party up with some players and my drops actually get worse as a result. So I either tend to solo and avoid pugs, or berate other players for not having enough MF equipped.
Not that this is necessarily worse than the current leeching system, but it's an issue and likely the reason they started with this approach.
If other players have a lower MF than me, they are downgrading my own drops. I party up with some players and my drops actually get worse as a result. So I either tend to solo and avoid pugs, or berate other players for not having enough MF equipped.
Not that this is necessarily worse than the current leeching system, but it's an issue and likely the reason they started with this approach.
True, but by sacrificing MF those players just increased your kill speed and made things quicker/easier; It's a give/take situation.
Someone with high MF% might not be "pulling their weight" combat wise, but they are boosting the group's item drops. While on the other hand, someone with low MF% might lower item drops, but they are boosting combat efficiency.
If you care that much about min/max MF, or you don't want your drops "downgraded", then you won't group with people (or only group with people who have similar MF%).
... it can be fixed simply (like using average %MF of a group to calculate drops for everyone or something similar).
I don't see what the problem would be with averaging out the group's magic find percentages.
If other players have a lower MF than me, they are downgrading my own drops. I party up with some players and my drops actually get worse as a result. So I either tend to solo and avoid pugs, or berate other players for not having enough MF equipped.
Not that this is necessarily worse than the current leeching system, but it's an issue and likely the reason they started with this approach.
There is a serious problem with your logic. You are not thinking along the lines of what is fair and ethical for everyone. Instead, you are only concerned with what you can get.
If MF is averaged, there are no victims. The group members with a lack of MF make up for it with the ability to kill quickly.
On the other hand, if MF is not averaged, then everyone the MF'er groups up with is in sense a victim. He does nothing to carry his own weight, but gets all the loot. It is a very corrupt system, that is not only exploitable, but very easy to exploit.
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
1 - Make MF not compete with dps/survival stats(affixes). MF would only compete with gold find, Experience and Radius grab. The thing is MF is a personal stat whereas dps and survival are coop stats, this way MF only compete with personal stats like GF, Exp. Is not losing dps for MF really a problem ? I don't think so but it would make gooditem+MF much better and valuable than gooditem (or gooditem+GF) though.
2 - Average MF across the group. Other players help you kill monsters you help them loot. Problem is what happens when the MF player is also stronger than the other ? Also since I get MF from another player and keep my DPS, I get everything and don't see the point losing DPS; the MF player becomes a MF bot.
So maybe an average with only player stronger than you. The game would calculate two scores a dps score and a MFscore. Every player share their MF score with players with higher dps.
Example:
Player 1 300DPS 50MF
Player 2 350DPS 150MF
Player 3 320DPS 80MF
Player 1 would share his 50 MF across all 3 players, player 2 would not share his MF, player 3 would share his MF only with player 2.
The ammount shared could be proportionate to the difference in DPS.
Player 2 is 16% more than P1, P3 is 6% more. P2 is 9% more dps than P3. Therefore Player 2 get 16% of 50MF from P1, 9% from P3, Player 3 get 6% of 50MF from P1. Player 1 get nothing. The players that give % also lose this % themselves.
Finally
Player 1 39MF (50-8-3)
Player 2 165MF (150+8+7)
Player 3 74MF (80+3-7)
A system along those lines seem fair to me (this is a rapid formula, maybe something is even better but that is fairer than a raw average I think). Note that if say Player2 had no MF and was just aiming for DPS he would only have 15MF. Still he carries the other players so he is getting a small boost to his MF.
For me the 1st solution is the better of the two (and better than nothing).
My guess though is game will ship as it is, they will work on the problem later on once the average player sees it as an issue, for laucnch and a couple month into the game only dedicated players will see it as a problem, not the mass.
1 - Make MF not compete with dps/survival stats(affixes). MF would only compete with gold find, Experience and Radius grab. The thing is MF is a personal stat whereas dps and survival are coop stats, this way MF only compete with personal stats like GF, Exp. Is not losing dps for MF really a problem ? I don't think so but it would make gooditem+MF much better and valuable than gooditem (or gooditem+GF) though.
2 - Average MF across the group. Other players help you kill monsters you help them loot. Problem is what happens when the MF player is also stronger than the other ? Also since I get MF from another player and keep my DPS, I get everything and don't see the point losing DPS; the MF player becomes a MF bot.
So maybe an average with only player stronger than you. The game would calculate two scores a dps score and a MFscore. Every player share their MF score with players with higher dps.
Example:
Player 1 300DPS 50MF
Player 2 350DPS 150MF
Player 3 320DPS 80MF
Player 1 would share his 50 MF across all 3 players, player 2 would not share his MF, player 3 would share his MF only with player 2.
The ammount shared could be proportionate to the difference in DPS.
Player 2 is 16% more than P1, P3 is 6% more. P2 is 9% more dps than P3. Therefore Player 2 get 16% of 50MF from P1, 9% from P3, Player 3 get 6% of 50MF from P1. Player 1 get nothing. The players that give % also lose this % themselves.
Finally
Player 1 39MF (50-8-3)
Player 2 165MF (150+8+7)
Player 3 74MF (80+3-7)
A system along those lines seem fair to me (this is a rapid formula, maybe something is even better but that is fairer than a raw average I think). Note that if say Player2 had no MF and was just aiming for DPS he would only have 15MF. Still he carries the other players so he is getting a small boost to his MF.
For me the 1st solution is the better of the two (and better than nothing).
My guess though is game will ship as it is, they will work on the problem later on once the average player sees it as an issue, for laucnch and a couple month into the game only dedicated players will see it as a problem, not the mass.
I though item #1 was what they were doing up until this blue post - I must have halucinated that whole topic at some point in the past.
Item #2 was what I had been thinking on if they had obviously discarded item #1 - its basically a weighted average between DPS and MF. Of course the multiboxers/botters will be all over this - load one or two chars for DPS and the other two with maxed MF and ONE spammable damage/utility ability - I know eq is going to have serious effects on character DPS but with all the rune-skill combos I'm pretty sure there will be examples of very group useful skills that wont require massive DPS to be powerful (mass slow/confusion type spells come to mind.)
1 - Make MF not compete with dps/survival stats(affixes). MF would only compete with gold find, Experience and Radius grab. The thing is MF is a personal stat whereas dps and survival are coop stats, this way MF only compete with personal stats like GF, Exp. Is not losing dps for MF really a problem ? I don't think so but it would make gooditem+MF much better and valuable than gooditem (or gooditem+GF) though.
2 - Average MF across the group. Other players help you kill monsters you help them loot. Problem is what happens when the MF player is also stronger than the other ? Also since I get MF from another player and keep my DPS, I get everything and don't see the point losing DPS; the MF player becomes a MF bot.
So maybe an average with only player stronger than you. The game would calculate two scores a dps score and a MFscore. Every player share their MF score with players with higher dps.
Example:
Player 1 300DPS 50MF
Player 2 350DPS 150MF
Player 3 320DPS 80MF
Player 1 would share his 50 MF across all 3 players, player 2 would not share his MF, player 3 would share his MF only with player 2.
The ammount shared could be proportionate to the difference in DPS.
Player 2 is 16% more than P1, P3 is 6% more. P2 is 9% more dps than P3. Therefore Player 2 get 16% of 50MF from P1, 9% from P3, Player 3 get 6% of 50MF from P1. Player 1 get nothing. The players that give % also lose this % themselves.
Finally
Player 1 39MF (50-8-3)
Player 2 165MF (150+8+7)
Player 3 74MF (80+3-7)
A system along those lines seem fair to me (this is a rapid formula, maybe something is even better but that is fairer than a raw average I think). Note that if say Player2 had no MF and was just aiming for DPS he would only have 15MF. Still he carries the other players so he is getting a small boost to his MF.
For me the 1st solution is the better of the two (and better than nothing).
My guess though is game will ship as it is, they will work on the problem later on once the average player sees it as an issue, for laucnch and a couple month into the game only dedicated players will see it as a problem, not the mass.
It would be very difficult to setup the game in the way you are suggesting in #2. This game isn't really just about DPS, as each player is to some extent the tank/dps/healer. Furthermore, I don't think what you are suggesting is something that should be implemented regardless.
Differences in skill and gear will exist no matter what you do. If you group with random people, then you will come across some people who are mediocre. That is just the way it is. If you do not want to take that chance, then you need to play with your friends or solo.
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Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
1 - Make MF not compete with dps/survival stats(affixes). MF would only compete with gold find, Experience and Radius grab. The thing is MF is a personal stat whereas dps and survival are coop stats, this way MF only compete with personal stats like GF, Exp. Is not losing dps for MF really a problem ? I don't think so but it would make gooditem+MF much better and valuable than gooditem (or gooditem+GF) though.
2 - Average MF across the group. Other players help you kill monsters you help them loot. Problem is what happens when the MF player is also stronger than the other ? Also since I get MF from another player and keep my DPS, I get everything and don't see the point losing DPS; the MF player becomes a MF bot.
So maybe an average with only player stronger than you. The game would calculate two scores a dps score and a MFscore. Every player share their MF score with players with higher dps.
Example:
Player 1 300DPS 50MF
Player 2 350DPS 150MF
Player 3 320DPS 80MF
Player 1 would share his 50 MF across all 3 players, player 2 would not share his MF, player 3 would share his MF only with player 2.
The ammount shared could be proportionate to the difference in DPS.
Player 2 is 16% more than P1, P3 is 6% more. P2 is 9% more dps than P3. Therefore Player 2 get 16% of 50MF from P1, 9% from P3, Player 3 get 6% of 50MF from P1. Player 1 get nothing. The players that give % also lose this % themselves.
Finally
Player 1 39MF (50-8-3)
Player 2 165MF (150+8+7)
Player 3 74MF (80+3-7)
A system along those lines seem fair to me (this is a rapid formula, maybe something is even better but that is fairer than a raw average I think). Note that if say Player2 had no MF and was just aiming for DPS he would only have 15MF. Still he carries the other players so he is getting a small boost to his MF.
For me the 1st solution is the better of the two (and better than nothing).
My guess though is game will ship as it is, they will work on the problem later on once the average player sees it as an issue, for laucnch and a couple month into the game only dedicated players will see it as a problem, not the mass.
It would be very difficult to setup the game in the way you are suggesting in #2. This game isn't really just about DPS, as each player is to some extent the tank/dps/healer. Furthermore, I don't think what you are suggesting is something that should be implemented regardless.
Differences in skill and gear will exist no matter what you do. If you group with random people, then you will come across some people who are mediocre. That is just the way it is. If you do not want to take that chance, then you need to play with your friends or solo.
I am still confused as to why it matters if the person with you is wearing a lot of magic find. Yes this is a coop game and yes working together is key to downing some of the higher difficulties. But it comes down to that player also has the same goals as the group and does not have to live to achieve that. If that person is not "pulling his weight" pve wise that doesn't absolutely hinder your own progression in that if he fails to live or fails to dps correctly that doesn't mean your group is doomed or even has to sacrifice themselves to save him.
Let that player die, I have seen many times over the years players who just don't understand how the game works running in with the group and not pulling back at the right time or just not doing anything productive mobs wise and being utterly destroyed in the process. Why does it matter what they want MF wise if he thinks he can play with it then fine. I trust in every players ability to access the situation and play as I am. We shouldn't change game mechanics or even cater to these players by adding more stats to items. Damage wise yes he isn't doing as much as say someone who is pure +attack but so are the people who are playing more defensively in their builds why should we cater to the MF whores and not to the tankers who never want to die.
I digress maybe I just don't fully understand the concept of the argument when it shocks me to see these posts on both the game forums and on diablofans.
There is a serious problem with your logic. You are not thinking along the lines of what is fair and ethical for everyone. Instead, you are only concerned with what you can get.
We are talking about public games here. Why should I care about what is "fair and ethical" to a bunch of strangers versus whatever maximizes my items per hour? If I can make more playing alone than dealing with random strangers and low MF, then I would do so. If I keep leaving games until I find a group that runs similar magic find then I'll do so. Maxing your drops is fundamentally about making more economic value than the other guys so you can get ahead and buy that rare loot others can't afford.
The "I" here is somewhat hypothetical, it's how the average gamer will think in a public environment. It's these kind of things that Blizzard has to approach carefully to "promote the co-op" that was so hurt in earlier Diablo games. PKing with various hacks might be unethical but that didn't stop nearly enough people.
Now there are some arguments about the actual balance of how things really play out, like team killing speed canceling out any MF% loss from other players averaging, or that teammates not running MF will make up for it in killing speed. This is going to depend on the exact numbers and could really go either way. Even if it goes the right way though, there's a problem of *perception* that this selfish and short-sighted "I" is going to see other players' choices negatively impacting me. I see other players directly screwing up my drop chances if they don't equip some minimum say 50% MF that does not impede their killing speed. So now it's something for this "I" to worry about in public games, and either avoiding or berating noobs who do not understand the importance of keeping their MF% up for my own benefit. Even if in the final analysis it's not a big deal, the majority of Bnet's less astute population are going to fuss over it and make a social mess and uncooperative environment leading some people back to private games.
Note again I'm not making the case that the current "leech" system is best. Just that there are actual problems with the "obvious" averaging approach as well.
[...]there are actual problems with the "obvious" averaging approach as well.
The only real problems I see with the averaging approach are numbers tweaks. All Blizzard would have to do is tweak the tradeoff of MF vs killing ability. Which, if their other games are any testiment, is a process of trial and error.
If after that, people still want to see themselves as being "brought down" by others with less magic find, there really isn't much Blizzard can do. They can't force anyone to think a certain way.
1 - Make MF not compete with dps/survival stats(affixes). MF would only compete with gold find, Experience and Radius grab. The thing is MF is a personal stat whereas dps and survival are coop stats, this way MF only compete with personal stats like GF, Exp. Is not losing dps for MF really a problem ? I don't think so but it would make gooditem+MF much better and valuable than gooditem (or gooditem+GF) though.
2 - Average MF across the group. Other players help you kill monsters you help them loot. Problem is what happens when the MF player is also stronger than the other ? Also since I get MF from another player and keep my DPS, I get everything and don't see the point losing DPS; the MF player becomes a MF bot.
So maybe an average with only player stronger than you. The game would calculate two scores a dps score and a MFscore. Every player share their MF score with players with higher dps.
Example:
Player 1 300DPS 50MF
Player 2 350DPS 150MF
Player 3 320DPS 80MF
Player 1 would share his 50 MF across all 3 players, player 2 would not share his MF, player 3 would share his MF only with player 2.
The ammount shared could be proportionate to the difference in DPS.
Player 2 is 16% more than P1, P3 is 6% more. P2 is 9% more dps than P3. Therefore Player 2 get 16% of 50MF from P1, 9% from P3, Player 3 get 6% of 50MF from P1. Player 1 get nothing. The players that give % also lose this % themselves.
Finally
Player 1 39MF (50-8-3)
Player 2 165MF (150+8+7)
Player 3 74MF (80+3-7)
A system along those lines seem fair to me (this is a rapid formula, maybe something is even better but that is fairer than a raw average I think). Note that if say Player2 had no MF and was just aiming for DPS he would only have 15MF. Still he carries the other players so he is getting a small boost to his MF.
For me the 1st solution is the better of the two (and better than nothing).
My guess though is game will ship as it is, they will work on the problem later on once the average player sees it as an issue, for laucnch and a couple month into the game only dedicated players will see it as a problem, not the mass.
It would be very difficult to setup the game in the way you are suggesting in #2. This game isn't really just about DPS, as each player is to some extent the tank/dps/healer. Furthermore, I don't think what you are suggesting is something that should be implemented regardless.
Differences in skill and gear will exist no matter what you do. If you group with random people, then you will come across some people who are mediocre. That is just the way it is. If you do not want to take that chance, then you need to play with your friends or solo.
It's easy to implement. Will it work is another question.
I'm not saying what I'm suggesting is refined though but you get the idea: having MF you lose X,Y, losing X,Y make your group weaker therefore someone with higher X,Y carries you over but you still get the benefit of having higher MF. You can just make an average but that wont solve the problems you are suggesting. Like my example if the person with the highest MF is also the one pulling the most wight then its unfair for him to have his MF averaged out across every players (like you know 4 players with 0MF would mean he get his MF/4 regardless if his other stats).
Like I said, solution 1 to have MF on a different affixe is the better solution but if they don't do that then my #2 is better than a raw basic average. The calculus can be better, taking more things into account, but you get the idea; I won't make a complex formula based on many stats... this is blizzard job.
I also agree that skill cannot be taken into account, still raw average doesn't solve this problem either.
I cannot understand how you agree with making a raw average but disagree with my method by saying I'm not taking into account skill and XYZ. If you want to spread the MF among the players make it weighted by something relevant. If you come up with good weights I'm all ears, 1/(#players) is a terrible weight. The logic is since a player loses stats to get MF and other players kill things from him then you have to base your weights on theses stats relative to each others.
Solution #1: Wow my group sucks at killing! Leave game play privately.
Solution #2: Wow my group sucks at killing! Leave game play with friends.
Solution #3: Wow my group sucks... oh it's a blizzard game they are probably 12... repeat option 1 or 2.
Solution #4: This is an amazing group I'm going to add them as a friend and hopefully keep playing with them.
Solution #5: OMFG not having 50% more mf statistically just cost me .00000001% of finding a legendary /quit
Solution #6: Play for fun
Solution #7: Everyone does the mf/money option and blizzard nerfs everything because we can't kill anything
Solution #8: Everyone does the mf/money option and blizzard implements ideas suggested above since were all greedy
Solution #9: It's an online game and greed/stupidity can't be fixed repeat option 1 & 2
Solution #10: Refer to option 9 except any balancing changes will still piss off someone repeat option 1 & 2.
Overall realization of solutions: Nothing will happen and if it does I'll be following #1, 2, and 6
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I don't see the big deal. D3 doesn't seem to punish dmg/defense that much by using mf considering that mf could replace a silly stat that isn't too useful.
What's bizarre is how people seem to think that blizzard is forcing them to play with dbag strangers. If you play with leeching strangers then that's a choice, not a requirement.
The current situation is not acceptable. As it is, Magic Find is the definition of selfishness. By sacrificing damage for magic find you penalize your team's killing speed/item drop rate in favor of increasing your own item drop rate. The most ideal situation is to sacrifice as much damage as possible for magic find, and to have party members who sacrifice as little damage as possible for magic find. It's disturbingly similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma.
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MF takes up potential item slots that could be +dmg or other useful stats. so the more magic find you have, the less utility and damage you are contributing, yet you get the most loot.
It's a recognized issue, just not one that has been attacked and a final design solution proposed/implemented.
In a game that at the end of the day pretty much comes down to collecting magical shiny stuff this seems to me to be a major mechanic that has not yet been worked out. He didn't even give us the "well have several different solutions on internal testing" line.
I was also under the impression that MF was a separate item affix/suffix slot now and did not replace other possible mods - did I miss a change or misinterpret what was originally said?
I'm sure they'll get something worked out but I'm thinking those "mid January" launches people keep suggesting are probably well in to the "wishful thinking" zone.
That is assuming they are trying to work on the problem at all.
I am willing to bet they arent. They are going to let it to go out as is, and fix it later if needed somehow.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Also impact wise... I don't see too much problems since we all get our own loot. Then again I have no idea how much needed everyone needs to be optimized in Hell and Inferno.
I don't see what the problem would be with averaging out the group's magic find percentages.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
If you are playing in a public game and do not like the killing power of the group you can always exit and find another game or play with friends.
If other players have a lower MF than me, they are downgrading my own drops. I party up with some players and my drops actually get worse as a result. So I either tend to solo and avoid pugs, or berate other players for not having enough MF equipped.
Not that this is necessarily worse than the current leeching system, but it's an issue and likely the reason they started with this approach.
Someone with high MF% might not be "pulling their weight" combat wise, but they are boosting the group's item drops. While on the other hand, someone with low MF% might lower item drops, but they are boosting combat efficiency.
If you care that much about min/max MF, or you don't want your drops "downgraded", then you won't group with people (or only group with people who have similar MF%).
There is a serious problem with your logic. You are not thinking along the lines of what is fair and ethical for everyone. Instead, you are only concerned with what you can get.
If MF is averaged, there are no victims. The group members with a lack of MF make up for it with the ability to kill quickly.
On the other hand, if MF is not averaged, then everyone the MF'er groups up with is in sense a victim. He does nothing to carry his own weight, but gets all the loot. It is a very corrupt system, that is not only exploitable, but very easy to exploit.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
1 - Make MF not compete with dps/survival stats(affixes). MF would only compete with gold find, Experience and Radius grab. The thing is MF is a personal stat whereas dps and survival are coop stats, this way MF only compete with personal stats like GF, Exp. Is not losing dps for MF really a problem ? I don't think so but it would make gooditem+MF much better and valuable than gooditem (or gooditem+GF) though.
2 - Average MF across the group. Other players help you kill monsters you help them loot. Problem is what happens when the MF player is also stronger than the other ? Also since I get MF from another player and keep my DPS, I get everything and don't see the point losing DPS; the MF player becomes a MF bot.
So maybe an average with only player stronger than you. The game would calculate two scores a dps score and a MFscore. Every player share their MF score with players with higher dps.
Example:
Player 1 300DPS 50MF
Player 2 350DPS 150MF
Player 3 320DPS 80MF
Player 1 would share his 50 MF across all 3 players, player 2 would not share his MF, player 3 would share his MF only with player 2.
The ammount shared could be proportionate to the difference in DPS.
Player 2 is 16% more than P1, P3 is 6% more. P2 is 9% more dps than P3. Therefore Player 2 get 16% of 50MF from P1, 9% from P3, Player 3 get 6% of 50MF from P1. Player 1 get nothing. The players that give % also lose this % themselves.
Finally
Player 1 39MF (50-8-3)
Player 2 165MF (150+8+7)
Player 3 74MF (80+3-7)
A system along those lines seem fair to me (this is a rapid formula, maybe something is even better but that is fairer than a raw average I think). Note that if say Player2 had no MF and was just aiming for DPS he would only have 15MF. Still he carries the other players so he is getting a small boost to his MF.
For me the 1st solution is the better of the two (and better than nothing).
My guess though is game will ship as it is, they will work on the problem later on once the average player sees it as an issue, for laucnch and a couple month into the game only dedicated players will see it as a problem, not the mass.
I though item #1 was what they were doing up until this blue post - I must have halucinated that whole topic at some point in the past.
Item #2 was what I had been thinking on if they had obviously discarded item #1 - its basically a weighted average between DPS and MF. Of course the multiboxers/botters will be all over this - load one or two chars for DPS and the other two with maxed MF and ONE spammable damage/utility ability - I know eq is going to have serious effects on character DPS but with all the rune-skill combos I'm pretty sure there will be examples of very group useful skills that wont require massive DPS to be powerful (mass slow/confusion type spells come to mind.)
It would be very difficult to setup the game in the way you are suggesting in #2. This game isn't really just about DPS, as each player is to some extent the tank/dps/healer. Furthermore, I don't think what you are suggesting is something that should be implemented regardless.
Differences in skill and gear will exist no matter what you do. If you group with random people, then you will come across some people who are mediocre. That is just the way it is. If you do not want to take that chance, then you need to play with your friends or solo.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
I am still confused as to why it matters if the person with you is wearing a lot of magic find. Yes this is a coop game and yes working together is key to downing some of the higher difficulties. But it comes down to that player also has the same goals as the group and does not have to live to achieve that. If that person is not "pulling his weight" pve wise that doesn't absolutely hinder your own progression in that if he fails to live or fails to dps correctly that doesn't mean your group is doomed or even has to sacrifice themselves to save him.
Let that player die, I have seen many times over the years players who just don't understand how the game works running in with the group and not pulling back at the right time or just not doing anything productive mobs wise and being utterly destroyed in the process. Why does it matter what they want MF wise if he thinks he can play with it then fine. I trust in every players ability to access the situation and play as I am. We shouldn't change game mechanics or even cater to these players by adding more stats to items. Damage wise yes he isn't doing as much as say someone who is pure +attack but so are the people who are playing more defensively in their builds why should we cater to the MF whores and not to the tankers who never want to die.
I digress maybe I just don't fully understand the concept of the argument when it shocks me to see these posts on both the game forums and on diablofans.
We are talking about public games here. Why should I care about what is "fair and ethical" to a bunch of strangers versus whatever maximizes my items per hour? If I can make more playing alone than dealing with random strangers and low MF, then I would do so. If I keep leaving games until I find a group that runs similar magic find then I'll do so. Maxing your drops is fundamentally about making more economic value than the other guys so you can get ahead and buy that rare loot others can't afford.
The "I" here is somewhat hypothetical, it's how the average gamer will think in a public environment. It's these kind of things that Blizzard has to approach carefully to "promote the co-op" that was so hurt in earlier Diablo games. PKing with various hacks might be unethical but that didn't stop nearly enough people.
Now there are some arguments about the actual balance of how things really play out, like team killing speed canceling out any MF% loss from other players averaging, or that teammates not running MF will make up for it in killing speed. This is going to depend on the exact numbers and could really go either way. Even if it goes the right way though, there's a problem of *perception* that this selfish and short-sighted "I" is going to see other players' choices negatively impacting me. I see other players directly screwing up my drop chances if they don't equip some minimum say 50% MF that does not impede their killing speed. So now it's something for this "I" to worry about in public games, and either avoiding or berating noobs who do not understand the importance of keeping their MF% up for my own benefit. Even if in the final analysis it's not a big deal, the majority of Bnet's less astute population are going to fuss over it and make a social mess and uncooperative environment leading some people back to private games.
Note again I'm not making the case that the current "leech" system is best. Just that there are actual problems with the "obvious" averaging approach as well.
If after that, people still want to see themselves as being "brought down" by others with less magic find, there really isn't much Blizzard can do. They can't force anyone to think a certain way.
It's easy to implement. Will it work is another question.
I'm not saying what I'm suggesting is refined though but you get the idea: having MF you lose X,Y, losing X,Y make your group weaker therefore someone with higher X,Y carries you over but you still get the benefit of having higher MF. You can just make an average but that wont solve the problems you are suggesting. Like my example if the person with the highest MF is also the one pulling the most wight then its unfair for him to have his MF averaged out across every players (like you know 4 players with 0MF would mean he get his MF/4 regardless if his other stats).
Like I said, solution 1 to have MF on a different affixe is the better solution but if they don't do that then my #2 is better than a raw basic average. The calculus can be better, taking more things into account, but you get the idea; I won't make a complex formula based on many stats... this is blizzard job.
I also agree that skill cannot be taken into account, still raw average doesn't solve this problem either.
I cannot understand how you agree with making a raw average but disagree with my method by saying I'm not taking into account skill and XYZ. If you want to spread the MF among the players make it weighted by something relevant. If you come up with good weights I'm all ears, 1/(#players) is a terrible weight. The logic is since a player loses stats to get MF and other players kill things from him then you have to base your weights on theses stats relative to each others.
Solution #2: Wow my group sucks at killing! Leave game play with friends.
Solution #3: Wow my group sucks... oh it's a blizzard game they are probably 12... repeat option 1 or 2.
Solution #4: This is an amazing group I'm going to add them as a friend and hopefully keep playing with them.
Solution #5: OMFG not having 50% more mf statistically just cost me .00000001% of finding a legendary /quit
Solution #6: Play for fun
Solution #7: Everyone does the mf/money option and blizzard nerfs everything because we can't kill anything
Solution #8: Everyone does the mf/money option and blizzard implements ideas suggested above since were all greedy
Solution #9: It's an online game and greed/stupidity can't be fixed repeat option 1 & 2
Solution #10: Refer to option 9 except any balancing changes will still piss off someone repeat option 1 & 2.
Overall realization of solutions: Nothing will happen and if it does I'll be following #1, 2, and 6
What's bizarre is how people seem to think that blizzard is forcing them to play with dbag strangers. If you play with leeching strangers then that's a choice, not a requirement.