Doesnt make sense to me. Why waste the chance to kill their lifetime enemy and main antagonist? Plot hole?
Ive heard people say Tyrael is working with the Prime Evils, but in the cinematic we see him using his tendril to prevent Diablo from pulling the soulstone out and releasing Baal, and then fighting mano a mano. Thats enough evidence to debunk any crazy theory.
"But wait, maybe he wanted to fool Marius into thinking they hated each other"
Why take the trouble? Marius is a nobody; they three could have just killed him right on the spot without breaking a sweat.
"They needed him to destroy the Worldstone"
This is what makes more sense to me but...if that was the Prime Evil's ultimate goal, then why didnt Baal just blew it by himself? Not enough power? I dont think so. He easily overpowers Tyrael after being released from his imprisoment, probably in a weakned state and not in his demon form.
Or maybe...*dons tinfoil hat*
The Worldstone had to be corrupted first in order to avoid drawing suspicions from the Angiris Council.
All of this doesnt make sense when you watch the cinematic. They CANT be working together.
Doesnt make sense to me. Why waste the chance to kill their lifetime enemy and main antagonist? Plot hole?
Tyrael was facing a Prime Evil- Diablo.
Ive heard people say Tyrael is working with the Prime Evils, but in the cinematic we see him using his tendril to prevent Diablo from pulling the soulstone out and releasing Baal, and then fighting mano a mano. Thats enough evidence to debunk any crazy theory.
That only applies if you buy in to those rumors, which I do not. Tyrael was preventing Diablo from releasing Baal because it would end up furthering the plans of Hell in Sanctuary.
"But wait, maybe he wanted to fool Marius into thinking they hated each other"
Why take the trouble? Marius is a nobody; they three could have just killed him right on the spot without breaking a sweat.
I don't see any point in thinking about this. It only applies if you're absolutely faithful to the "Tyrael is evil" conspiracy theories.
"They needed him to destroy the Worldstone"
This is what makes more sense to me but...if that was the Prime Evil's ultimate goal, then why didnt Baal just blew it by himself? Not enough power? I dont think so. He easily overpowers Tyrael after being released from his imprisoment, probably in a weakned state and not in his demon form.
Uh, Marius never even saw the Worldstone or, as far as we know, got anywhere near Harrogath or Mount Arreat. He died in a prison at the hand of Baal. Tyrael, first of all, did not want the Worldstone destroyed (as far as we can see from the evidence we have from in-game, I'm not talking about conspiracy theories) and was reluctant to do so even after Baal corrupted it. Baal didn't primarily want it destroyed or he would have done so- he only corrupted it. Marius, as far as we know, didn't even know the Worldstone existed- he only evidenced the Soulstones- he died shortly after that.
Edit-
Yeah, I just realized after reading over this for like the millionth time that you were referring to Tyrael and not Marius with this argument. The reason Baal did not destroy it is open to speculation because nothing concrete was ever offered. It can be assumed that the sword Tyrael wielded was somehow able to destroy it- maybe it was one of the few things that could. Baal didn't have any kind of magical weapon, only his demonic magic, and the Worldstone is, of course, made of angelic and demonic magic, if I remember correctly.
Or maybe...*dons tinfoil hat*
The Worldstone had to be corrupted first in order to avoid drawing suspicions from the Angiris Council.
I really don't see how you came about this conclusion
All of this doesnt make sense when you watch the cinematic.
tyreal isnt evil, and if Tyreal falls in battle God types /revive.
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Doesnt make sense to me. Why waste the chance to kill their lifetime enemy and main antagonist? Plot hole?
Killing a Prime Evil isn't as easy as it might seems. Sure Diablo was killed in both D1 and D2, but does that mean he won't be returning in D3? Hell no, and the same goes for the Angiris Council. Even if they had killed him right there, it probably wouldn't have been the end for Tyrael anyway.
Quote from "Zilaem" »
Or maybe...*dons tinfoil hat*
The Worldstone had to be corrupted first in order to avoid drawing suspicions from the Angiris Council.
Except this means Tyrael is using the Three without them knowing it. That still makes them enemies, and so doesn't answer the question why he isn't killed.
Quote from "Zilaem" »
All of this doesnt make sense when you watch the cinematic. They CANT be working together.
Nope, and I don't think they are. The conclusion I draw is that Diablo and Baal simply cannot kill him at that point due to their weakened state, so they simply leave him in Tal Rasha's chamber. Diablo is at that point unaware that anyone is following him, which means neither he nor Baal suspects that anyone will come by anytime soon and release Tyrael. And even if someone did, Duriel is there to guard against any stray wanderers.
Quote from "edi-lupus" »
also the angiris council didn't even know about this planet or the world stone
Incorrect. The Angiris Council is well aware of the fact that Sanctuary exists. The Worlstone hides Sanctuary, but that doesn't mean they don't know it exists, even if they don't know where.
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Incorrect. The Angiris Council is well aware of the fact that Sanctuary exists. The Worlstone hides Sanctuary, but that doesn't mean they don't know it exists, even if they don't know where.
to support you Phrozen Dragon--at the end of the sin war trilogy the angiris council did appear in sanctuary so they do know where it is
Tyrael, Diablo, and Baal are equal in power...thats why its been a stalemate for all this time. if Tyrael was able to fight Baal and Diablo one at a time then he will have been able to survive just enough to escape.
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Also, both Baal and Diablo were in "weakened" states...Diablo was still living in the body of the hero who'd slain him, and had not fully been "reborn" as we see in the later cinematic in the Zakarum temple. Baal had just been released from a very long imprisonment...that would take its toll even on a Prime Evil.
I'm sure the two brothers would have "killed" Tyrael if they could have...whatever "killing" might entail with creatures such as Tyrael, Diablo, and Baal. Like others here, I don't buy the "Tyrael is evil" theory.
Tyrael's death would only likely be a temporary setback for him; angels, like demons, might be able to recompose themselves after death. Therefor, a weakened Baal, Diablo and Duriel could have fought and defeated Tyrael, then bind him to the stone that bound Baal under Duriel's supervision. This may have been a more effective way of removing him.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Duriel was not there at the time that Diablo and Baal were there. He was placed there as a sentry by Diablo later to keep anyone from opening the chamber to free Tyrael- when the Lesser Evils were being rounded up because the Prime Evils were returning.
Duriel was not there at the time that Diablo and Baal were there.
We don't really know the circumstances of Tyrael's defeat or Duriel's arrival. That's what this whole thread is about. I'm merely suggesting that Baal and Diablo may have, at some point, been able to call upon Duriel's aid in defeating Tyrael. Or perhaps Duriel was summoned via an infernal gateway forged by them. Or maybe Mephisto dispatched Duriel from Kurast to rendezvous with them. *shrug*
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
First of all, good topic. Second, we don't know every exact reason they didn't kill Tyrael, but I think to help answer the question one must ask why Tyrael didn't kill the Wanderer and Tal Rasha. Since Tyrael actually tells you by the time you find him how he is broken and the energies binding him to your world are broken. I think inversely, while Diablo's and Baal's powers might not have been broken to the extent that Tyrael's were, we can probably at least argue that their powers were seriously weak at this time. Relatively, that is. And even though Tyrael was struggling almost in the corporeal sense within Sanctuary, considering Diablo and Baal's weakened states, I still doubt that even they could have slain Tyrael.
I think Diablo saw freeing his brother as a calculated risk, but did not totally foresee Tyrael being present at the tomb since the High Heavens have never been known previously to directly get involved with the happenings on the mortal plane. So in Diablo's mind, he was lucky enough to get in there and barely make it out with his brother while using what little power he had to further weaken Tyrael enough to make an escape.
In the Sin Wars, however, angels did die, with a violent explosion of both light and sound, that defeaned and blinded those that are mentally weak.
Now, the Worldstone was created by Inarius, was it not? This allowed him to completely mask Sanctuary's presence completely from both the High Heavens and Burnings Hells, but eventually things didn't work out so well, and both sides found it and attacked it, then had a truce and... well I haven't read that far yet *just finished the trilogy*.
But I think, that possibly Tyrael didn't kill them because he didn't have the stength to, and same applies to the other side. That or possibly one side tried to use the other in aiding the destruction of the Worldstone (remember, Angels are not good for Sanctuary, they are the same as demons, both sides are, in essence, "bad").
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The only answer I can think of that makes sence to me is that Tyrael would just respawn in whatever is heaven equivalent of the abyss if they killed him, and emprisoning him at the place where Baal had been imprisoned was actually a real good way to get rid of him permanently... that is, since they probalby didn't expect anyone to find that place and free him.
I'm leaning towards this explanation as well, however there are two problems with it.
1. Tyrael says "...but I did expect you earlier." when you free him from Tal Rasha's Tomb. Now how would Tyrael know of us? Perhaps this is why Duriel was placed there to guard him, and they didn't foresee him being slain.
2. However, there's also another problem. Tyrael also says "...and the energies that tie me to this world are diminishing rapidly." This suggests that he wouldn't remain imprisoned in there anyway for very long. This is something Baal and Diablo had to have known about, so why imprison him if he was bound to be freed?
The solution I think is that this was a temporary measure. By putting Tyrael there, even for a short moment, their greatest adversary would be unable to hinder them from reaching Mephisto.
Quote from "Ullion" »
In the Sin Wars, however, angels did die, with a violent explosion of both light and sound, that defeaned and blinded those that are mentally weak.
True, but those angels were of an obviously lower rank, much like the demons we slay as players. While there nothing that says they can't return as well, the apparent worth of ressurecting a Fallen compared to Diablo is obviously low.
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Too be honest it would make sense for Diablo to come back since the next is called "Diablo3" and Diablo and the Prime Evils were killed but we have no clue where there souls went? Sounds odd I know but when we die on this earth we either go to Hell or Heaven so could this same rule apply on sanctuary?
In Sin War, it mentioned that the soul of mortal after death was sent to and "live" in another plane. Though I can't recall it ever mentioned which plane it was, I don't think this place was either Heaven or Burning Hell.
Well without knowing exactly how Tyrael is able to be in Sanctuary, we can't really gain an understanding of how strong he is in this manifested state, so we can't really weigh in how strong he would have been against the two Primes. I do remember something about an "antyrael" stone from the D1 xpac that obviously had something to do with him, but I don't think anything from that game can be taken as canon anyway.
Besides the corruptive theories (which I don't believe in any of them either), I don't think the answer to this question is that complex. Most likely, Baal and Diablo in their weakened states were barely strong enough to get an upperhand on Tyrael, and when they did, they probably just wanted to stall him long enough to complete their master plan which would have a much more lasting effect than anything they could have done in that chamber at that time.
Angels aren't dead in Diablo, they just aren't mortal.
Yea if you read in the sin war trilogy it tells you that inarius was considered dead in mortal terms. yet hes still walkin around flyin around fighting even though he would be considered dead.
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Ive heard people say Tyrael is working with the Prime Evils, but in the cinematic we see him using his tendril to prevent Diablo from pulling the soulstone out and releasing Baal, and then fighting mano a mano. Thats enough evidence to debunk any crazy theory.
"But wait, maybe he wanted to fool Marius into thinking they hated each other"
Why take the trouble? Marius is a nobody; they three could have just killed him right on the spot without breaking a sweat.
"They needed him to destroy the Worldstone"
This is what makes more sense to me but...if that was the Prime Evil's ultimate goal, then why didnt Baal just blew it by himself? Not enough power? I dont think so. He easily overpowers Tyrael after being released from his imprisoment, probably in a weakned state and not in his demon form.
Or maybe...*dons tinfoil hat*
The Worldstone had to be corrupted first in order to avoid drawing suspicions from the Angiris Council.
All of this doesnt make sense when you watch the cinematic. They CANT be working together.
Excuse my english.
Tyrael was facing a Prime Evil- Diablo.
That only applies if you buy in to those rumors, which I do not. Tyrael was preventing Diablo from releasing Baal because it would end up furthering the plans of Hell in Sanctuary.
I don't see any point in thinking about this. It only applies if you're absolutely faithful to the "Tyrael is evil" conspiracy theories.
Uh, Marius never even saw the Worldstone or, as far as we know, got anywhere near Harrogath or Mount Arreat. He died in a prison at the hand of Baal. Tyrael, first of all, did not want the Worldstone destroyed (as far as we can see from the evidence we have from in-game, I'm not talking about conspiracy theories) and was reluctant to do so even after Baal corrupted it. Baal didn't primarily want it destroyed or he would have done so- he only corrupted it. Marius, as far as we know, didn't even know the Worldstone existed- he only evidenced the Soulstones- he died shortly after that.
Edit-
Yeah, I just realized after reading over this for like the millionth time that you were referring to Tyrael and not Marius with this argument. The reason Baal did not destroy it is open to speculation because nothing concrete was ever offered. It can be assumed that the sword Tyrael wielded was somehow able to destroy it- maybe it was one of the few things that could. Baal didn't have any kind of magical weapon, only his demonic magic, and the Worldstone is, of course, made of angelic and demonic magic, if I remember correctly.
I really don't see how you came about this conclusion
No, it really doesn't.
Except this means Tyrael is using the Three without them knowing it. That still makes them enemies, and so doesn't answer the question why he isn't killed.
Nope, and I don't think they are. The conclusion I draw is that Diablo and Baal simply cannot kill him at that point due to their weakened state, so they simply leave him in Tal Rasha's chamber. Diablo is at that point unaware that anyone is following him, which means neither he nor Baal suspects that anyone will come by anytime soon and release Tyrael. And even if someone did, Duriel is there to guard against any stray wanderers.
Incorrect. The Angiris Council is well aware of the fact that Sanctuary exists. The Worlstone hides Sanctuary, but that doesn't mean they don't know it exists, even if they don't know where.
to support you Phrozen Dragon--at the end of the sin war trilogy the angiris council did appear in sanctuary so they do know where it is
Tyrael, Diablo, and Baal are equal in power...thats why its been a stalemate for all this time. if Tyrael was able to fight Baal and Diablo one at a time then he will have been able to survive just enough to escape.
I'm sure the two brothers would have "killed" Tyrael if they could have...whatever "killing" might entail with creatures such as Tyrael, Diablo, and Baal. Like others here, I don't buy the "Tyrael is evil" theory.
In the sin wars trilogy, they say that humans<nephelem< angels and demons.
i do not know when the worldstone came about, but if it had something to do with both angels and demons somehow making it.
then maybe it took angels and demons to destroy it.
Maybe it was Baal's plan all along to corupt it. so then tyreal would have to destroy it.
maybe that could be why they spared him.
who knows
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
We don't really know the circumstances of Tyrael's defeat or Duriel's arrival. That's what this whole thread is about. I'm merely suggesting that Baal and Diablo may have, at some point, been able to call upon Duriel's aid in defeating Tyrael. Or perhaps Duriel was summoned via an infernal gateway forged by them. Or maybe Mephisto dispatched Duriel from Kurast to rendezvous with them. *shrug*
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Most of us are as lost about that as you are.
I think Diablo saw freeing his brother as a calculated risk, but did not totally foresee Tyrael being present at the tomb since the High Heavens have never been known previously to directly get involved with the happenings on the mortal plane. So in Diablo's mind, he was lucky enough to get in there and barely make it out with his brother while using what little power he had to further weaken Tyrael enough to make an escape.
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Now, the Worldstone was created by Inarius, was it not? This allowed him to completely mask Sanctuary's presence completely from both the High Heavens and Burnings Hells, but eventually things didn't work out so well, and both sides found it and attacked it, then had a truce and... well I haven't read that far yet *just finished the trilogy*.
But I think, that possibly Tyrael didn't kill them because he didn't have the stength to, and same applies to the other side. That or possibly one side tried to use the other in aiding the destruction of the Worldstone (remember, Angels are not good for Sanctuary, they are the same as demons, both sides are, in essence, "bad").
One becomes strong when they are fighting to protect someone close to them... - Shiro Haku
1. Tyrael says "...but I did expect you earlier." when you free him from Tal Rasha's Tomb. Now how would Tyrael know of us? Perhaps this is why Duriel was placed there to guard him, and they didn't foresee him being slain.
2. However, there's also another problem. Tyrael also says "...and the energies that tie me to this world are diminishing rapidly." This suggests that he wouldn't remain imprisoned in there anyway for very long. This is something Baal and Diablo had to have known about, so why imprison him if he was bound to be freed?
The solution I think is that this was a temporary measure. By putting Tyrael there, even for a short moment, their greatest adversary would be unable to hinder them from reaching Mephisto.
True, but those angels were of an obviously lower rank, much like the demons we slay as players. While there nothing that says they can't return as well, the apparent worth of ressurecting a Fallen compared to Diablo is obviously low.
In Sin War, it mentioned that the soul of mortal after death was sent to and "live" in another plane. Though I can't recall it ever mentioned which plane it was, I don't think this place was either Heaven or Burning Hell.
Besides the corruptive theories (which I don't believe in any of them either), I don't think the answer to this question is that complex. Most likely, Baal and Diablo in their weakened states were barely strong enough to get an upperhand on Tyrael, and when they did, they probably just wanted to stall him long enough to complete their master plan which would have a much more lasting effect than anything they could have done in that chamber at that time.
Yea if you read in the sin war trilogy it tells you that inarius was considered dead in mortal terms. yet hes still walkin around flyin around fighting even though he would be considered dead.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask