I posted free trade or riot, the first thread had a nice discussion going then got deleted.
so me and few people from twitch started a riot of threads, and a good discussion went for 4 pages on my second thread before I was banned for 1 month lol.
Excessive punctuation (ascii art and whatnot) in thread titles isn't allowed on official forums, as per Code of Conduct, and mods usually delete those. You got banned because you repeatedly recreated the same offending titles, and that counts as spam.
Now, if you posted constructively, your message would still be visible.
Excessive punctuation (ascii art and whatnot) in thread titles isn't allowed on official forums, as per Code of Conduct, and mods usually delete those. You got banned because you repeatedly recreated the same offending titles, and that counts as spam.
Now, if you posted constructively, your message would still be visible.
Mhmmm.
Way too many streamers using "Something" or Riot nowadays.. That bandwagon HYPE.
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"Get busy living or get busy dieing.."
Twitch.tv: twitch.tv/mehsiah | Youtube/Twitter in the future.
All of this crap is coming from streamers. Of course they want trade so they can get gear from their viewers then complain a week later about how they geared up too quickly.
Shaggy and I disagree on the trade issue completely, but, he is exactly right about this. The *only* real vote you have on the issue is to buy, or not buy RoS. Buying RoS is a vote for Blizzard to do it their way. Not buying it is a *NO* vote on Blizzard's choices. Anything else...is just noise to Blizzard.
Make your choice accordingly.
Whenever i bring up the argument in people's streams, i get called a troll even though most of the times i'm totally serious and i bring up valid points such as:
-Allowing free trade alongside the removal of the AH will lead to a state where websites like D2jsp rule the D3 economy scene.
-Allowing free trade will again bring about a million 3rd party websites that sell gear, gold, whatever.
-People will not buy whole accounts because every idiot knows that if you sell an account to someone, you can still claim it got hacked and get it back through blizz support.
-If the loot 2.0 system is rewarding enough, why do we need free trade with complete random strangers? I'm not saying that it is rewarding enough, i'm saying that in essence, the idea of loot 2.0 should solve this issue and we have yet to see the latest iteration of said idea.
Now, the people who are in favor of free trade, never bring up any type of argument that makes sense other than stuff like "diablo is all about trading" etc... Even this OP post lacks any type of logical reasoning. So i ask you guys who are in favor of free trading, let me know why you think the removal of it will kill the game. Take into account the new systems introduced to counter this issue (i.e loot 2.0).
Edit: I listened to MannerCookie speak about the issue for a while and i think that his point of view makes sense. Too mad he didn't post it in the OP.
Whenever i bring up the argument in people's streams, i get called a troll even though most of the times i'm totally serious and i bring up valid points such as:
-Allowing free trade alongside the removal of the AH will lead to a state where websites like D2jsp rule the D3 economy scene.
-Allowing free trade will again bring about a million 3rd party websites that sell gear, gold, whatever.
-People will not buy whole accounts because every idiot knows that if you sell an account to someone, you can still claim it got hacked and get it back through blizz support.
-If the loot 2.0 system is rewarding enough, why do we need free trade with complete random strangers? I'm not saying that it is rewarding enough, i'm saying that in essence, the idea of loot 2.0 should solve this issue and we have yet to see the latest iteration of said idea.
Now, the people who are in favor of free trade, never bring up any type of argument that makes sense other than stuff like "diablo is all about trading" etc... Even this OP post lacks any type of logical reasoning. So i ask you guys who are in favor of free trading, let me know why you think the removal of it will kill the game. Take into account the new systems introduced to counter this issue (i.e loot 2.0).
Edit: I listened to MannerCookie speak about the issue for a while and i think that his point of view makes sense. Too mad he didn't post it in the OP.
To your points:
1) There was free trade in Diablo 2 and its a fairly widely held belief that only a fraction of the player base used 3rd party sites like d2jsp. That's hardly "ruling" the economy. I'd like people to weigh in on whether they used jsp or not to really see if this is a valid belief.
2) Allowing free trade will not lead to the creation of 3rd party sites. There are plenty of 3rd party sites that already (and will continue to) sell gear (remember rares will continue to be tradeable) so this really isn't a valid point.
3) I don't know what this has to do with having free trade. But I am in agreement with the idea that blizz needs to get its shit together on the rollback situation, though from the lack of threads bitching about dupes lately, it appears they have made some progress in this regard.
4) This is what all of this really boils down to. The above points are really irrelevant when you look at this core aspect of the debate. So I'm going to break this up into a couple viewpoints.
Lets assume that loot 2.0 is rewarding enough and we are able to find all the gear that we could want quickly enough to be satisfied. In that situation, what does open trading hurt? Anyone who wants to play the game to find the gear themselves is able to. The loot is good enough to reduce the impulse to go trade instead of actually playing the game and killing monsters. And yet there is still the ability for those who find trading (and are looking for a more social aspect to the game) to pursue that playstyle. Wow, such win win. No one is dictating to anyone else that they should be playing the game in a certain way. Everyone gets to enjoy diablo the way they want to and everyone's happy.
What if there's a middle ground. We'll assume that Blizz isn't able to get this perfect and loot 2.0, while generally rewarding enough, still has some weird kinks where you just can't find that one piece of gear you really want to be able to try out your max-range siege tank style crusader (I am pulling this out of my ass). You have all the other gear, and its almost a viable build. You've found it all yourself too so you feel genuinely invested in getting this thing to work but you need one more legendary to make it really awesome. Its been 5 months, and it still won't drop. Your interest fades, you get over it, you go play a different game. You never got to see that build you wanted in action. RNG screwed you and overall the loot was still satisfying but you were kept from something you thought would be really fun. Add in trading of legendaries. You know have a way to get that piece you wanted. It takes nothing away from people who want to play the game self-found. It takes nothing away from the satisfaction you had in finding all the rest of the gear. It even allows for you to keep banging your head against the RNG wall in the hopes that what you want will eventually drop for you. Sure someone out there will have traded for all their gear, but who cares. If you really want a satisfying experience that comes from finding your own gear, what does it matter what someone else bought. Someone will always have better luck with rng than you and that wouldn't take away your satisfaction so why should someone taking a short cut.
For giggles, lets include a third scenario where blizzard screws up loot again (I know, its hard to imagine, but try to stick with me). Loot 2.0 flops, its not satisfying, you find the same shitty legendaries all the time, gold acquisition is too low, crafting legendaries doesn't fill the gear needs you have and you can play for hours and hours without finding something thats even marginally good for your character. Basically, its live with some new, equally terrible sparklies. Without trade, everyone is sad and suffering. Self-found isn't viable and there's no real alternate way to progress, as thats bound by gold drop rates that just don't support your needs. Granted, from what we've seen, it shouldn't be this bad. But I wanted to include this as an illustration that again, its nottrading that prevents self-founders from playing in a way they enjoy, its the reward systems. They're updating the reward system, why does that also need to include the removal of free trade?
While I hope that the new system is good enough to support playing the game as the most satisfying activity, I want to flip the tables on you and ask why, if loot 2.0 is good enough to support people playing on their own and having fun gearing up without turning to other activities, should we remove an aspect of the game that other people enjoy as a supplement? Basically why do we need to limit trading if the other aspects of the game are improved enough to decrease peoples' impulse to trade?
*Edited to clean up some grammar
1) There was free trade in Diablo 2 and its a fairly widely held belief that only a fraction of the player base used 3rd party sites like d2jsp. That's hardly "ruling" the economy. I'd like people to weigh in on whether they used jsp or not to really see if this is a valid belief.
Only a fraction of the player base actually did trade, actually. Most players never traded, at least not publicly, i.e., outside of their circle of friends.
Of those who traded, I think it's safe to say the majority used D2JSP or similar third party sites to coordinate their trades. But to be honest, this is kinda leading nowhere: no one gives a damn about these third party sites. Whether you trade through using your clan chat, the D2JSP forum, or Ebay - what do I care?
The one argument why trading was completely "killed" in RoS is because of the effect that the AH had on loot. Since items were traded among all players, progression was way quicker than expected and loot had to be adjusted, i.e., drop rates had to be lowered significantly. The more people trade, the lower the drop rates. It's as simple as that (here's the official word on that).
So saying "if you don't want to trade, just don't trade, but let me have my open trading" is not really how it works.
Note: I myself am 100% sure that the day will come where I will curse Blizzard for the fact that everything is BoA. But I've arranged myself with the situation. I just don't like when people go all nuts and forget the real reasons behind these design decisions. There's no question about it - it's an overreaction and they could at least allow trading in clans, for example only for clan members after a week or a month or so. Maybe they'll introduce it later on, we'll see...
But the way how some people argue for trading in this thread makes me sick. Well, there's not even an argument, just "trade or riot".
I must say that you bring up many valid points and i agree with the idea of if loot 2.0 is good enough then why would they limit another aspect of the game that some people (me included) enjoy and the only reasoning i can put behind this, is that Blizzard wants to kill off 3rd party websites *in their current state* and force people to play the game in a certain way. Now, i guess that they think that this specific way will increase the game's longevity and i think that there's a chance that they are right about it. I just hope that they will execute it well enough but i guess that's still early to determine? Personally i can't wait for the next beta patch and ROS release in general, with or without trading and with or without ladders. Call me casual i don't give a shit, i spent thousands of hours gaming on a pc, got nothing to prove b**** "Kappa" lol
While I understand Blizzard's stance, I support free trade. Here is my argument:
Diablo 3 has always promoted playing with your friends. That's fine, I enjoy playing with other people anyway. But, what comes along with that is RNG and the amount of time each player puts into the game. Some people are not going to be equally geared and will not successful in same higher difficulties. Therefore, this discourages team play for people that want more of a challenge rather than be stuck in a lower difficulty with their friends. Sure, a rare item MAY help, or they could wait for that person to catch up, but how long would that be? Why is it such Sin to be able to help out a friend and give him a piece of gear that may help him m or her move along with a build they are trying and/or with friends? 3rd party sites are always going to be around if there is something in the game that can be traded, so might as well make every item BOA..
Sure, a rare item MAY help, or they could wait for that person to catch up, but how long would that be? Why is it such Sin to be able to help out a friend and give him a piece of gear that may help him m or her move along with a build they are trying and/or with friends?
D3's reward system is the loot. The more ways you have to short-circuit that by getting the rewards without playing the game, the less invested in the game the player is. The less invested the player is, the lower the quality the player perceives the game as having.
You have to have a somewhat uniform set of rules, and there will always be edge cases that don't go against the spirit of the rule, but against the letter, and it sucks but that's all there is to it. It's not like the real world where a cop or a judge has some discretion in enforcing the law - the game has to enforce the law as it's coded, to the letter.
D3's reward system is the loot. The more ways you have to short-circuit that by getting the rewards without playing the game, the less invested in the game the player is. The less invested the player is, the lower the quality the player perceives the game as having.
But that begs the question as to how people could be "invested" in PoE (or D2, or D1, or TL 2, or TL 1, or Darkstone) and feel that it's a good game.... despite being able to "get the rewards without playing the game." How is it possible in EVERY OTHER ARPG OF CONSEQUENCE, yet remains impossible in D3?
Why is D3, literally, the only ARPG of note where some people believe that trading ruins the game? How is D3 so different from every other ARPG that trading is taboo? What about D3 necessitates that trading be eradicated otherwise people can't have fun and why is this not the case in any other ARPG?
I simply don't buy that TRADING is the problem because it's not a problem in other ARPGs (PoE, in fact, is exploring ways to facilitate trading beyond chat/forum spam). PoE also has botters and 3rd party sites, so I don't buy that being a problem either because PoE certainly isn't collapsing inwards despite a F2P system that does, in fact, rely on whales, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that D2 somehow built a game where trading was allowed, but the average player never felt the need to trade. That's EXACTLY what every game should strive for. BoA is just copping to the fact that the developers can't deliver on that... which is disappointing.
Like I said in another thread, when you get a melanoma on your left hand and you go to the doctor you expect him to treat the melanoma, not amputate your arm.
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This is interesting, original and thoughtful thread.
I posted free trade or riot, the first thread had a nice discussion going then got deleted.
so me and few people from twitch started a riot of threads, and a good discussion went for 4 pages on my second thread before I was banned for 1 month lol.
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
I agree tho
we need trading.
Excessive punctuation (ascii art and whatnot) in thread titles isn't allowed on official forums, as per Code of Conduct, and mods usually delete those. You got banned because you repeatedly recreated the same offending titles, and that counts as spam.
Now, if you posted constructively, your message would still be visible.
Twitch.tv: twitch.tv/mehsiah | Youtube/Twitter in the future.
Oh no banned for breaking forum code?!
ehohel, good
I agree for sure on trading. Also they need to add arena or some type of PvP for me to even consider coming back to diablo.
All of this crap is coming from streamers. Of course they want trade so they can get gear from their viewers then complain a week later about how they geared up too quickly.
Don't Twitch out in here. :<
Ha. Bagstone.
Right message. Wrong way to send it. This "<something> or riot" stuff makes me nauseous.
You want to riot? Don't buy RoS.
BS. Free trade already failed.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Only a fraction of the player base actually did trade, actually. Most players never traded, at least not publicly, i.e., outside of their circle of friends.
Of those who traded, I think it's safe to say the majority used D2JSP or similar third party sites to coordinate their trades. But to be honest, this is kinda leading nowhere: no one gives a damn about these third party sites. Whether you trade through using your clan chat, the D2JSP forum, or Ebay - what do I care?
The one argument why trading was completely "killed" in RoS is because of the effect that the AH had on loot. Since items were traded among all players, progression was way quicker than expected and loot had to be adjusted, i.e., drop rates had to be lowered significantly. The more people trade, the lower the drop rates. It's as simple as that (here's the official word on that).
So saying "if you don't want to trade, just don't trade, but let me have my open trading" is not really how it works.
Note: I myself am 100% sure that the day will come where I will curse Blizzard for the fact that everything is BoA. But I've arranged myself with the situation. I just don't like when people go all nuts and forget the real reasons behind these design decisions. There's no question about it - it's an overreaction and they could at least allow trading in clans, for example only for clan members after a week or a month or so. Maybe they'll introduce it later on, we'll see...
But the way how some people argue for trading in this thread makes me sick. Well, there's not even an argument, just "trade or riot".
While I understand Blizzard's stance, I support free trade. Here is my argument:
Diablo 3 has always promoted playing with your friends. That's fine, I enjoy playing with other people anyway. But, what comes along with that is RNG and the amount of time each player puts into the game. Some people are not going to be equally geared and will not successful in same higher difficulties. Therefore, this discourages team play for people that want more of a challenge rather than be stuck in a lower difficulty with their friends. Sure, a rare item MAY help, or they could wait for that person to catch up, but how long would that be? Why is it such Sin to be able to help out a friend and give him a piece of gear that may help him m or her move along with a build they are trying and/or with friends? 3rd party sites are always going to be around if there is something in the game that can be traded, so might as well make every item BOA..
But that begs the question as to how people could be "invested" in PoE (or D2, or D1, or TL 2, or TL 1, or Darkstone) and feel that it's a good game.... despite being able to "get the rewards without playing the game." How is it possible in EVERY OTHER ARPG OF CONSEQUENCE, yet remains impossible in D3?
Why is D3, literally, the only ARPG of note where some people believe that trading ruins the game? How is D3 so different from every other ARPG that trading is taboo? What about D3 necessitates that trading be eradicated otherwise people can't have fun and why is this not the case in any other ARPG?
I simply don't buy that TRADING is the problem because it's not a problem in other ARPGs (PoE, in fact, is exploring ways to facilitate trading beyond chat/forum spam). PoE also has botters and 3rd party sites, so I don't buy that being a problem either because PoE certainly isn't collapsing inwards despite a F2P system that does, in fact, rely on whales, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that D2 somehow built a game where trading was allowed, but the average player never felt the need to trade. That's EXACTLY what every game should strive for. BoA is just copping to the fact that the developers can't deliver on that... which is disappointing.
Like I said in another thread, when you get a melanoma on your left hand and you go to the doctor you expect him to treat the melanoma, not amputate your arm.