Now this is a subjective opinion but from my perspective there is no singularly amazing ARPG this generation.
We have a handful of good games that do some things right and some things really poorly.
Diablo 3 - has some awesome combat and visuals. A very smooth (when the servers aren't laggy and audio assets aren't loading) game.
Path of Exile - has some amazing options for theorycrafters and end game.
Torchlight 2 - is smooth and user friendly while allowing for a great mod community.
There are a few up and coming ARPGs (Grim Dawn, Van Helsing, Marvel Heroes) but they tend to fall somewhere in between these three prominent game's framework.
In the end, despite some clear strengths they either water down systems too much or stick too closely to the old systems of Diablo 2 where the challenges were derived from poorly worked systems (potion spamming + infinite TP, poorly worked skill trees) rather than being creatively difficult.
Also, we still have the same approach to leveling via playing through the game 3-4 times normal,nightmare, hell) before you reach end game (if it's even present). After all these years that's the most creative way to level? I don;t hate it, but I am astounded how the genre hasn't really evolved since Diablo 2 (to any great margin).
I don't want to instigate a flame war. I just don't see much else to talk about right now since Diablo 3 is in a major developmental limbo as far as I can tell.
EDIT:
I think a good follow up question would be: Where do you see the genre going into the future? What systems would you like to see evolve, added or removed, become more dynamic, etc.
Different games for different people. A lot swear some of these games give them everything they've ever wanted in ARPGs. Other cling to games they've played while younger that have a bigger grip on them like D2 and BG and nothing new will ever bring a similar feel because they've since been playing games for close to 20 years.
Also, we still have the same approach to leveling via playing through the game 3-4 times normal,nightmare, hell) before you reach end game (if it's even present). After all these years that's the most creative way to level? I don;t hate it, but I am astounded how the genre hasn't really evolved since Diablo 2 (to any great margin).
In my opinion, the genre did evolve heavily via transforming into MMORPGs. Compare WoW leveling to D2 leveling and it is so much more (insert random positive word).
But as the years have shown, MMOs are "too much" for a lot of people due to the required time investment and the requirement to play with other people to achieve end game goals.
So we're back down to the simplicity of ARPGs. I can live with that, I don't have the time for WoW and I don't like its current state anyway.
Now, what do you think, Blizz could improve on D3 without making it too big?
edit:
What overneathe said about old games is very true. No game will ever meet the joy we had when we first played D2 online, when we first played an MMO etc.
Besides what Zero and overneathe said... you can't combine certain things.
For example, the simplicity of D3 and the complexity of PoE are two different options on a spectrum of "game design". D3 is meant to be simple and suitable for casuals, while PoE is specifically designed to cater the needs of hardcore gamers. A game can't do both, obviously; something is either easy or difficult. There are certain middle grounds, but these two games clearly took their path to the far ends of the spectrum and both satisfy different needs.
In the case of Diablo 3? I think it's because they're trying to appeal to the widest possible demographic. i.e. They tried to make an ARPG that would appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Instead of targeting a specific audience, core Diablo fans, they tried to appeal to everyone. I feel core fans got the short end of the stick here, as the game seems not to appeal to most core Diablo fans the way it's predecessor, Diablo 2, endeared itself to them.
In the end, it's all about the item hunt, and the item hunt in D3 falls terribly short. Before launch, I took for granted that we would be overwhelmed with countless throngs of legendaries. So many that we wouldn't be able to remember them all. Instead, these "legendary" items were so bad, nobody wanted any of them. They slightly improved that mark via 1.04, but it still falls short.
I believe egos come in to play here as well. The gaming development community all know each other. Maybe not personally, but they know of each other and egos come in to play here.
This is what leads to trashing history's great ideas in an effort to create their own "great" ideas. Example; They thought they were so fucking smart ditching Rune Words, the Cube and Charms. Yet they really didn't come up with a suitable replacement for these items types/ideas, they just simply ditched what was, in fact, someone else's idea from the past.
I submit that they would've been better off using someone else ideas from the past game and building upon them, but their egos wouldn't allow them to. Instead, they tried to be cute and the result was disastrously inept.
The result has been just about every single person I knew from D2 has quit D3 strictly because the items weren't something they could identify with, the items were sad and uninspired. The items caused so many core fans to walk, including now, myself.
The game plays great, silky smooth combat and a great platform to build upon. But will they get the items right on their 3rd try? Dunno....but we're going to have to wait a substantial amount of time for this to happen. My confidence is shaken terribly. I just don't know if they're going to do this thing right.
I mentioned in another thread that I had surgery about 8 days ago. I was looking forward to chillin for a week and playing the hell out of D3. Before I logged in, I came here and I learned that the itemization patch was at least 6-10 months off. I damn near smashed my keyboard to bits and I haven't logged in since.
I got this creeping fear that the same thing will happen not long after they launch the itemization patch. That I will scream "WHAT THE FUCK" when I realize that they still don't get it, that their items still fall well short of player-expected goals. I want to love this game, I really truly do. I want this next patch to be a home-run, but if they try to follow trends and appease the widest possible demographic in search of the greatest possible sales, the game will be dead to me as well.
When it comes to ARPG's, nothing matters more than items. Fuck that up and the game is a waste.
I think the problem is that fans above anything. And people hiring shitty game devs.
Half the people like something and half the people don't... And when you try to appeal to one side you pretty much anger the other side.
D3 suffers from this.
Most people wanted the same as D2 except better. We wanted skill trees, stats, Pking, runewords etc.
And then theres the other side who wants No skills trees and no pking etc.
Its just sad really. ANd it just goes to show you if you get the right people for the job you get a good game. IF you force people to make a game you get what you get.
This is what leads to trashing history's great ideas in an effort to create their own "great" ideas. Example; They thought they were so fucking smart ditching Rune Words, the Cube and Charms. Yet they really didn't come up with a suitable replacement for these items types/ideas, they just simply ditched what was, in fact, someone else's idea from the past.
QFT
It's nothing but a shame, what they have done to some of the franchise's legends just to do their own thing.
Many people have hit the nail almost completely on the head with their answers (Zero, Overneathe, etc) but the one thing to consider is the RMAH.
Out of the list of games that the OP mentioned, D3 is the only one that tried to capitalize on their own game in a lasting way by adding the RMAH.
And what's the one thing everyone says is the major problem with the game? Items. Items (imo) were designed around the useage of the RMAH. There is no way that a team of developers didn't realize how poor the items were at release, or again with the 1.0.4 patch. The very concept of their rolls and how finding a truly legendary, legendary is so rare because of the range of rolls that you certainly would have a high selling item with it - is the blatant key to why items were designed around the RMAH.
Why is it taking a year and a half, or even longer to fix this one fundamental flaw of the game? A game that is defined by many to be an item hunt? Well, it takes a long time to undo the ties between items and the RMAH and how to make sure you don't tank one or the other.
My response is not a flame - I did that months ago. I've come back to the game each patch and play for a little bit and then roll.
Diablo 3 failed. When an expansion hits - they have their chance to reclaim its playerbase and momentum. Here's to hoping.
This is what leads to trashing history's great ideas in an effort to create their own "great" ideas. Example; They thought they were so fucking smart ditching Rune Words, the Cube and Charms. Yet they really didn't come up with a suitable replacement for these items types/ideas, they just simply ditched what was, in fact, someone else's idea from the past.
QFT
It's nothing but a shame, what they have done to some of the franchise's legends just to do their own thing.
This is what leads to trashing history's great ideas in an effort to create their own "great" ideas. Example; They thought they were so fucking smart ditching Rune Words, the Cube and Charms. Yet they really didn't come up with a suitable replacement for these items types/ideas, they just simply ditched what was, in fact, someone else's idea from the past.
QFT
It's nothing but a shame, what they have done to some of the franchise's legends just to do their own thing.
And, while this is debatable, I don't like the Lord of Terror as a female
Sexist much?.. lol.
hehee...
I think that aspect was recieved by many core fans as just more cheese for the cheeseyness of the story line.
It didn't strike many as "dark" or "evil". It betrayed some subtle nuances of the demonic lore that made the Diablo franchise so compelling. Diablo's sex change fell well in-line with the Saturday morning cartoon-esque feel of the story and many of it's characters.
I would like it if the difference between D2 and D3 was the same as the difference between D1 and D2...D2 on the whole built ontop D1 while D3 to me stripped away some of the things that were good about D2 the items obviously but also the genuine feel and enjoyment of making decisions about character progress while levelling are severely lacking for me.
An ARPG is first and Foremost a role playing game and as such users still play out a role, when that role is previously determined for you as they have done with stats and skills to a certain extent(since you don't control which skills you acquire) then some of the role playing aspect has been taken away and needs to be replaced i agreed with their logic about stat choices being irrelevant because there is a "best way to do it" but that wont change the fact that allocating and thinking about the way stats should be allocated was fun as was determining your build by distributing skills points..where are the RPG choices which replaced them fundamental systems? they kept them put them under the hood but did not replace which has really changed the psychological feel of the game.
At the abstract level all this is just making decisions about how your character progresses and changes overtime and the excitement of that process has been extinguished by the removal of these choices
Lack of RPG choices.
Bad Items.
Weak map Randomization.
I agree with all the positive things that are said about D3 i still marvel at the brilliance of combat and the tactics which are required but when it comes to the above things D3 Fails hard and if it did not i think it would be and hopefully still could be this generations great ARPG.
(somehow the devs thought that less content would be preferable to more content, haven't seen this being true for a videogame yet and I'm getting pretty old)
Really? I've played many games that I wished had less spent on producing content and more spent on better execution of an interesting concept or wished were 2 hours shorter rather than having that dragging middle section so the publisher can put '10 hours play time' on the box.
Say what you will about this generations ARPG's but I think Dark Souls was definitely one of the best ARPG's (if not THE best) I have ever played. It combined elements of Phantasy Star Online and Diablo 2 in ways that satisfied me to the core.
Most people wanted the same as D2 except better. We wanted skill trees, stats, Pking, runewords etc.
Stop issuing your opinion as if you represented others. Seems to be a very bad habit of yours. "Most people wanted"? How do you even know most people who played D2 or play D3?
Overneathe touched on this subject on another thread: there's no way you can tell what the majority wants for D3 (or even what they think of the game). No, internet forums are NOT enough.
Blizzard has the data for that. Are they revealing those stats to us? Hardly (except maybe for skill/runes usage every now and then; or the AH issue). Are they doing what the majority wants? Nobody knows. Are they accepting feedback and changing things based on said feedback? Yeah, on some things at least.
Its just sad really. ANd it just goes to show you if you get the right people for the job you get a good game. IF you force people to make a game you get what you get.
The right people would be someone like David Brevik? Who made one of the worst ARPGs in all time, and kept the tradition of making bad games based on big franchises? Looks like his D2 experience didn't help him much in developing Marvel Heroes.
Or maybe the PoE developers who get bashed hardly on their forums for making 180 turns with tons of things wrong (like not getting meele combat right even after 2-3 years of beta testing, or their most recent Chaos Inoculation problem, where they overnerfed life nodes but left most shield nodes intact). People are not exactly thrilled over there either (but at least that's still a solid game).
I just don't think we have seen the leap in quality from Diablo 2's days conceptually like we had when Half-Life came onto the scene as an evolution from Doom and Quake based fps. It shifted the perspective of what an fps could be in terms of story and action. It raised the bar significantly. With ARPGs the climb to that next summit has been far more gradual over a far longer span of time.
D3 in 2012. should have been superior to D2:LOD, right from the start, in every possible way. Comparing this game to original D2 and giving a company like Blizzard (which has the biggest experience in the industry with role playing games) some slack there is just silly. Because, not only did D3 fail to evolve in some of the key aspects, it basically regressed in quite a few of them. And somehow it's still the best ARPG out there.
D3 failed with map randomization and linearity, it failed with itemization, the removal of ladder system, but personally, the one thing that really bothers me and hasn't been discussed that much is how bad it failed with quests.
Quests are an integral part of any role playing game (you're always a hero on a quest), and it's about damn time they evolved in the ARPG's, because nowadays they're all either copying D2 or, in case of D3, making even worse and lazier quests than those that came 10 years earlier.
If you take time to create hundreds of random quests (time quests, class quests and epic quest chains) ranging from short and sweet to hardcore and extremely rare ones that happen somewhere in the world zones, or only at certain times, or only at high MP levels, opening hidden unique dungeons and portals to further promoting exploration, then you will add a powerful incentive to play again and again, at the same time massively improving the overall gameplay experience and fun of finding something new.
Give out cool rewards (small permanent buffs, leveling gear, flasks, special cosmetic items, titles, pets, the opportunity to change a name of a single item, add a color or an effect to a weapon, etc.) and make quests one of the focal points of the game. You cannot go wrong with this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the small death that brings total obliteration."
Most people wanted the same as D2 except better. We wanted skill trees, stats, Pking, runewords etc.
Stop issuing your opinion as if you represented others. Seems to be a very bad habit of yours. "Most people wanted"? How do you even know most people who played D2 or play D3?
Overneathe touched on this subject on another thread: there's no way you can tell what the majority wants for D3 (
. Im not violating any rules when simply telling it how it is am I? I really don't get what you are your friend there have against such a real statement.
No real D2/ARPG fan wanted the removal of skills trees which is pretty much the very essence of D2. And if you did, you are then one of the major reasons D3 has lost any real reason to roll new characters and actually build anything.
Now you can sit their and call it an opinion. But feel free to prove me wrong.
I think a good follow question would be: Where do you see the genre going into the future? What systems would you like to see evolve, added or removed, become more dynamic, etc.
D4* - Each class has 3 predefined specs to choose from. The item hunt is all about transmog since stats were removed from gear. Also stream lined levels by removing them entirely. Randomizing a map feels too old school so stream lined that was well. Playing your once favorite franchise will finally be on par with coin-op arcade games.
PoE - More races, more depth, more randomization, more replayability. D2's spiritual successor.
For me D3 is about to lose its one redeeming quality. Hearthstone will let me catchup with old WoW friends.
* People who loved D3 will be outraged at how D4 turned out.
We have a handful of good games that do some things right and some things really poorly.
Diablo 3 - has some awesome combat and visuals. A very smooth (when the servers aren't laggy and audio assets aren't loading) game.
Path of Exile - has some amazing options for theorycrafters and end game.
Torchlight 2 - is smooth and user friendly while allowing for a great mod community.
There are a few up and coming ARPGs (Grim Dawn, Van Helsing, Marvel Heroes) but they tend to fall somewhere in between these three prominent game's framework.
In the end, despite some clear strengths they either water down systems too much or stick too closely to the old systems of Diablo 2 where the challenges were derived from poorly worked systems (potion spamming + infinite TP, poorly worked skill trees) rather than being creatively difficult.
Also, we still have the same approach to leveling via playing through the game 3-4 times normal,nightmare, hell) before you reach end game (if it's even present). After all these years that's the most creative way to level? I don;t hate it, but I am astounded how the genre hasn't really evolved since Diablo 2 (to any great margin).
I don't want to instigate a flame war. I just don't see much else to talk about right now since Diablo 3 is in a major developmental limbo as far as I can tell.
EDIT:
I think a good follow up question would be: Where do you see the genre going into the future? What systems would you like to see evolve, added or removed, become more dynamic, etc.
In their own account.
You can't have one that does everything right because there is no right, there are just preferences.
Different games for different people. A lot swear some of these games give them everything they've ever wanted in ARPGs. Other cling to games they've played while younger that have a bigger grip on them like D2 and BG and nothing new will ever bring a similar feel because they've since been playing games for close to 20 years.
C'est la vie.
Ha. Bagstone.
In my opinion, the genre did evolve heavily via transforming into MMORPGs. Compare WoW leveling to D2 leveling and it is so much more (insert random positive word).
But as the years have shown, MMOs are "too much" for a lot of people due to the required time investment and the requirement to play with other people to achieve end game goals.
So we're back down to the simplicity of ARPGs. I can live with that, I don't have the time for WoW and I don't like its current state anyway.
Now, what do you think, Blizz could improve on D3 without making it too big?
edit:
What overneathe said about old games is very true. No game will ever meet the joy we had when we first played D2 online, when we first played an MMO etc.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
For example, the simplicity of D3 and the complexity of PoE are two different options on a spectrum of "game design". D3 is meant to be simple and suitable for casuals, while PoE is specifically designed to cater the needs of hardcore gamers. A game can't do both, obviously; something is either easy or difficult. There are certain middle grounds, but these two games clearly took their path to the far ends of the spectrum and both satisfy different needs.
In the end, it's all about the item hunt, and the item hunt in D3 falls terribly short. Before launch, I took for granted that we would be overwhelmed with countless throngs of legendaries. So many that we wouldn't be able to remember them all. Instead, these "legendary" items were so bad, nobody wanted any of them. They slightly improved that mark via 1.04, but it still falls short.
I believe egos come in to play here as well. The gaming development community all know each other. Maybe not personally, but they know of each other and egos come in to play here.
This is what leads to trashing history's great ideas in an effort to create their own "great" ideas. Example; They thought they were so fucking smart ditching Rune Words, the Cube and Charms. Yet they really didn't come up with a suitable replacement for these items types/ideas, they just simply ditched what was, in fact, someone else's idea from the past.
I submit that they would've been better off using someone else ideas from the past game and building upon them, but their egos wouldn't allow them to. Instead, they tried to be cute and the result was disastrously inept.
The result has been just about every single person I knew from D2 has quit D3 strictly because the items weren't something they could identify with, the items were sad and uninspired. The items caused so many core fans to walk, including now, myself.
The game plays great, silky smooth combat and a great platform to build upon. But will they get the items right on their 3rd try? Dunno....but we're going to have to wait a substantial amount of time for this to happen. My confidence is shaken terribly. I just don't know if they're going to do this thing right.
I mentioned in another thread that I had surgery about 8 days ago. I was looking forward to chillin for a week and playing the hell out of D3. Before I logged in, I came here and I learned that the itemization patch was at least 6-10 months off. I damn near smashed my keyboard to bits and I haven't logged in since.
I got this creeping fear that the same thing will happen not long after they launch the itemization patch. That I will scream "WHAT THE FUCK" when I realize that they still don't get it, that their items still fall well short of player-expected goals. I want to love this game, I really truly do. I want this next patch to be a home-run, but if they try to follow trends and appease the widest possible demographic in search of the greatest possible sales, the game will be dead to me as well.
When it comes to ARPG's, nothing matters more than items. Fuck that up and the game is a waste.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Half the people like something and half the people don't... And when you try to appeal to one side you pretty much anger the other side.
D3 suffers from this.
Most people wanted the same as D2 except better. We wanted skill trees, stats, Pking, runewords etc.
And then theres the other side who wants No skills trees and no pking etc.
Its just sad really. ANd it just goes to show you if you get the right people for the job you get a good game. IF you force people to make a game you get what you get.
QFT
It's nothing but a shame, what they have done to some of the franchise's legends just to do their own thing.
Short list of those things:
killing Cain,
Grandfather,
Windforce,
Messerschmidt's..
And, while this is debatable, I don't like the Lord of Terror as a female
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Out of the list of games that the OP mentioned, D3 is the only one that tried to capitalize on their own game in a lasting way by adding the RMAH.
And what's the one thing everyone says is the major problem with the game? Items. Items (imo) were designed around the useage of the RMAH. There is no way that a team of developers didn't realize how poor the items were at release, or again with the 1.0.4 patch. The very concept of their rolls and how finding a truly legendary, legendary is so rare because of the range of rolls that you certainly would have a high selling item with it - is the blatant key to why items were designed around the RMAH.
Why is it taking a year and a half, or even longer to fix this one fundamental flaw of the game? A game that is defined by many to be an item hunt? Well, it takes a long time to undo the ties between items and the RMAH and how to make sure you don't tank one or the other.
My response is not a flame - I did that months ago. I've come back to the game each patch and play for a little bit and then roll.
Diablo 3 failed. When an expansion hits - they have their chance to reclaim its playerbase and momentum. Here's to hoping.
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
Sexist much?.. lol.
hehee...
I think that aspect was recieved by many core fans as just more cheese for the cheeseyness of the story line.
It didn't strike many as "dark" or "evil". It betrayed some subtle nuances of the demonic lore that made the Diablo franchise so compelling. Diablo's sex change fell well in-line with the Saturday morning cartoon-esque feel of the story and many of it's characters.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
An ARPG is first and Foremost a role playing game and as such users still play out a role, when that role is previously determined for you as they have done with stats and skills to a certain extent(since you don't control which skills you acquire) then some of the role playing aspect has been taken away and needs to be replaced i agreed with their logic about stat choices being irrelevant because there is a "best way to do it" but that wont change the fact that allocating and thinking about the way stats should be allocated was fun as was determining your build by distributing skills points..where are the RPG choices which replaced them fundamental systems? they kept them put them under the hood but did not replace which has really changed the psychological feel of the game.
At the abstract level all this is just making decisions about how your character progresses and changes overtime and the excitement of that process has been extinguished by the removal of these choices
Lack of RPG choices.
Bad Items.
Weak map Randomization.
I agree with all the positive things that are said about D3 i still marvel at the brilliance of combat and the tactics which are required but when it comes to the above things D3 Fails hard and if it did not i think it would be and hopefully still could be this generations great ARPG.
Really? I've played many games that I wished had less spent on producing content and more spent on better execution of an interesting concept or wished were 2 hours shorter rather than having that dragging middle section so the publisher can put '10 hours play time' on the box.
Overneathe touched on this subject on another thread: there's no way you can tell what the majority wants for D3 (or even what they think of the game). No, internet forums are NOT enough.
Blizzard has the data for that. Are they revealing those stats to us? Hardly (except maybe for skill/runes usage every now and then; or the AH issue). Are they doing what the majority wants? Nobody knows. Are they accepting feedback and changing things based on said feedback? Yeah, on some things at least.
The right people would be someone like David Brevik? Who made one of the worst ARPGs in all time, and kept the tradition of making bad games based on big franchises? Looks like his D2 experience didn't help him much in developing Marvel Heroes.
Or maybe the PoE developers who get bashed hardly on their forums for making 180 turns with tons of things wrong (like not getting meele combat right even after 2-3 years of beta testing, or their most recent Chaos Inoculation problem, where they overnerfed life nodes but left most shield nodes intact). People are not exactly thrilled over there either (but at least that's still a solid game).
I just don't think we have seen the leap in quality from Diablo 2's days conceptually like we had when Half-Life came onto the scene as an evolution from Doom and Quake based fps. It shifted the perspective of what an fps could be in terms of story and action. It raised the bar significantly. With ARPGs the climb to that next summit has been far more gradual over a far longer span of time.
Actually... slow ARPG evolution.... HL3 confirmed???
D3 failed with map randomization and linearity, it failed with itemization, the removal of ladder system, but personally, the one thing that really bothers me and hasn't been discussed that much is how bad it failed with quests.
Quests are an integral part of any role playing game (you're always a hero on a quest), and it's about damn time they evolved in the ARPG's, because nowadays they're all either copying D2 or, in case of D3, making even worse and lazier quests than those that came 10 years earlier.
If you take time to create hundreds of random quests (time quests, class quests and epic quest chains) ranging from short and sweet to hardcore and extremely rare ones that happen somewhere in the world zones, or only at certain times, or only at high MP levels, opening hidden unique dungeons and portals to further promoting exploration, then you will add a powerful incentive to play again and again, at the same time massively improving the overall gameplay experience and fun of finding something new.
Give out cool rewards (small permanent buffs, leveling gear, flasks, special cosmetic items, titles, pets, the opportunity to change a name of a single item, add a color or an effect to a weapon, etc.) and make quests one of the focal points of the game. You cannot go wrong with this.
. Im not violating any rules when simply telling it how it is am I? I really don't get what you are your friend there have against such a real statement.
No real D2/ARPG fan wanted the removal of skills trees which is pretty much the very essence of D2. And if you did, you are then one of the major reasons D3 has lost any real reason to roll new characters and actually build anything.
Now you can sit their and call it an opinion. But feel free to prove me wrong.
D4* - Each class has 3 predefined specs to choose from. The item hunt is all about transmog since stats were removed from gear. Also stream lined levels by removing them entirely. Randomizing a map feels too old school so stream lined that was well. Playing your once favorite franchise will finally be on par with coin-op arcade games.
PoE - More races, more depth, more randomization, more replayability. D2's spiritual successor.
For me D3 is about to lose its one redeeming quality. Hearthstone will let me catchup with old WoW friends.
* People who loved D3 will be outraged at how D4 turned out.
Path of Exile - CleavieWonder (Elemental Cleave)
It never really hit me how hard the D3 team set out to distance themselves from the D2 team. Mind blown.
This whole thing has me really curious about the console version. IMO the ps3/xbox never really had an ARPG
as awesome as D2.