Did you guys miss the removal of nightmare mode hinted at in there? And that the threads for torment are for torment or higher? I think they are combining nightmare and hell into torment so it's 3 play throughs, not 5.
I think that's what we're discussing.
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Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
This change could also be just them renaming a certain difficulty to prevent problems when translating the game to other languages.
As an example, in portuguese (Brazil's and Portugal's language), Inferno and Hell have pretty much the same meaning. Inferno can also be used to describe a fire out of control (iirc), but in the current context it's more tied to the idea of a "Burning Hell" imo. I'm pretty sure the word "inferno" has latin (the language) origin, while Hell probably has an anglo-saxon origin.
So in the translated Diablo 3 versions (like the console one which can't be changed to english... <- patch this pl0x Blizz!) Hell is translated as Tormenta, which conveys the idea of a "mental Hell", a "psychological torment"... And Inferno is left as Inferno (which is what Hell is actually translated to in portuguese, we don't have 2 words for this same idea as you do in english).
I don't know if other latin languages have this same problem (Italian, Spanish, French).
What you guys discussed is also doable by the way. But I think the 4-difficulty format works pretty well - at least for me it does, going from Normal -> Inferno seems to be a lot faster (and more varied gameplay and skill-wise) in D3 than it was in D2 anyways.
I'll admit I'm confused as to this Torment difficutly idea. I'm keen on them just going back to "Normal, Nightmare, Hell" like the previous games and just making Hell the new inferno. I suspect they're concerned that this might confuse people if they removed inferno outright so they want to keep it and merge nightmare/hell. On top of that, there's so many references to inferno and how it works that it'd be much more work finding all the strings that reference Inferno and suddenly change it to Hell.
Knowing blizzard this is also a marketing thing to keep from having to say "the revamped hell" so they can instead say "all new difficutly mode" even though it's just a rework. Speculation speculation. Blizzcon would have to be a month away...
This is nothing but speculation, but I can see them revamping difficulties. Removing the requirement of defeating the one to unlock the other and simply giving players the ability to switch between them as difficulties in other games let you do. I can see Monster Power being removed as an option and being integrated into the difficulties themselves. Much like it is on the console version. You start your game and choose your difficulty.
That would explain adding a 5th difficulty, removing the requirement from the tooltip and giving the players that feel they don't want to play past Normal a great answer.
The thing about Diablo's difficulties are the item drops. A system like that will completely throw item progression out of whack.
I had this thought when discussing it in my thread, too. The fact that in Inferno, you find the best items, but adding a fifth difficulty would mean better items should drop.
Currently, items of level 58-63 drop in Inferno. I was thinking...if Torment were added AFTER Inferno, alongside the addition of the expansion (which would be a good place to add it in), you could have items level 58-65 drop in Inferno, and Torment could drop items level 66-73.
I mean, that seems the simplest solution...just in terms of item level.
The thing about Diablo's difficulties are the item drops. A system like that will completely throw item progression out of whack.
I had this thought when discussing it in my thread, too. The fact that in Inferno, you find the best items, but adding a fifth difficulty would mean better items should drop.
Currently, items of level 58-63 drop in Inferno. I was thinking...if Torment were added AFTER Inferno, alongside the addition of the expansion (which would be a good place to add it in), you could have items level 58-65 drop in Inferno, and Torment could drop items level 66-73.
I mean, that seems the simplest solution...just in terms of item level.
I think you both are forgetting in diablo2 things were based on treasure class (think ilvl) and it was dependent on the mob/area, not act. You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
The thing about Diablo's difficulties are the item drops. A system like that will completely throw item progression out of whack.
I had this thought when discussing it in my thread, too. The fact that in Inferno, you find the best items, but adding a fifth difficulty would mean better items should drop.
Currently, items of level 58-63 drop in Inferno. I was thinking...if Torment were added AFTER Inferno, alongside the addition of the expansion (which would be a good place to add it in), you could have items level 58-65 drop in Inferno, and Torment could drop items level 66-73.
I mean, that seems the simplest solution...just in terms of item level.
I think you both are forgetting in diablo2 things were based on treasure class (think ilvl) and it was dependent on the mob/area, not act. You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
Not sure I follow you. As I understand it, in D3, the stats of an item are dependent on the level of the monster that drops it, which is determined by their location in the game and difficulty mode, same as D2. In Inferno, the monster level is determined solely by which act you are in, if you are in MP0, and 63 across the board in MP1 or higher. MP has no impact on the monster level or quality of items, only the frequency at which items drop (by adjusting MF%)
Not sure I follow you. As I understand it, in D3, the stats of an item are dependent on the level of the monster that drops it, which is determined by their location in the game and difficulty mode, same as D2. In Inferno, the monster level is determined solely by which act you are in, if you are in MP0, and 63 across the board in MP1 or higher. MP has no impact on the monster level or quality of items, only the frequency at which items drop (by adjusting MF%)
In D3 the potential properties an item rolls is dependent on the iLvl of the item. The iLvl is determined by the monster's level that drops it. If you play Act 1/2 on MP0 it sure as hell will impact the quality of items you drop. It's just that very few people play Act 1/2 on MP0 at this point, so it seems that monster level has no impact in D3.
Not sure I follow you. As I understand it, in D3, the stats of an item are dependent on the level of the monster that drops it, which is determined by their location in the game and difficulty mode, same as D2. In Inferno, the monster level is determined solely by which act you are in, if you are in MP0, and 63 across the board in MP1 or higher. MP has no impact on the monster level or quality of items, only the frequency at which items drop (by adjusting MF%)
In diablo 2 the difficulty did effect the treasure class and ilvl but it was still mob specific. For example Diablo, Nithalak and Baal were higher than any other mobs in the game, pindle/frozenstein were the next highest. They dropped different ilvls and higher potential treasure class than anything else.
Btw in d2 the difficulty didn't really switch it from 1-25 to 26-50 or anything in terms of tc. It was more like 1-25 to 1-50. You could still get short bows in act 5 hell, they were just as common as getting a ward bow.
In D3 Act 1 drops up to 62? But if you put it on monster power 1 it makes everything drop up to 63.
Bottom line; Mob/monster level determines the drops. If monster power increases mlvl then it increases ilvl too. Subtracting or adding difficulties doesn't have to have any effect on ilvl. Since monster power does the same thing better.
p.s. I do realize that means you wouldn't be able to do MP 10 on a lvl 1 char but that is not necessary for a good experience.
In D3 the potential properties an item rolls is dependent on the iLvl of the item. The iLvl is determined by the monster's level that drops it. If you play Act 1/2 on MP0 it sure as hell will impact the quality of items you drop. It's just that very few people play Act 1/2 on MP0 at this point, so it seems that monster level has no impact in D3.
In diablo 2 the difficulty did effect the treasure class and ilvl but it was still mob specific. For example Diablo, Nithalak and Baal were higher than any other mobs in the game, pindle/frozenstein was the next highest. They dropped different ilvls( higher potential treasure class) than anything else.
Btw in d2 the difficulty didn't really switch it from 1-25 to 26-50 or anything in terms of tc. It was more like 1-25 to 1-50. You could still get short bows in act 5 hell, they were just as common as getting a ward bow.
In D3 Act 1 drops up to 62? But if you put it on monster power 1 it makes everything drop up to 63.
Bottom line; Mob/monster level determines the drops. If monster power increases mlvl then it increases ilvl too. Subtracting or adding difficulties doesn't have to have any effect on ilvl. Since monster power does the same thing better.
p.s. I do realize that means you wouldn't be able to do MP 10 on a lvl 1 char but that is not necessary for a good experience.
My point was that there is no difference in terms of item quality between MP1 and MP10 since increasing MP does not increase monster level, it only increases monster stats directly. There is a difference between MP0 and MP1, but only on act 1/2 Inferno. Nowhere else does MP have an effect on the quality of the items that drop, only the quantity.
You are right that bosses in D2 had different drop 'tables' based on mlvl and ilvl. But it was still different for each boss based on what difficulty you are in. So, yes, difficulty does have an impact on the quality of drops, indirectly, since it increases monster levels.
But you are completely right in the sense that monster level is what determines the quality of items.
My point was that there is no difference in terms of item quality between MP1 and MP10 since increasing MP does not increase monster level, it only increases monster stats directly. There is a difference between MP0 and MP1, but only on act 1/2 Inferno. Nowhere else does MP have an effect on the quality of the items that drop, only the quantity.
You are right that bosses in D2 had different drop 'tables' based on mlvl and ilvl. But it was still different for each boss based on what difficulty you are in. So, yes, difficulty does have an impact on the quality of drops, indirectly, since it increases monster levels.
But you are completely right in the sense that monster level is what determines the quality of items.
My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
My point was that there is no difference in terms of item quality between MP1 and MP10 since increasing MP does not increase monster level, it only increases monster stats directly. There is a difference between MP0 and MP1, but only on act 1/2 Inferno. Nowhere else does MP have an effect on the quality of the items that drop, only the quantity.
You are right that bosses in D2 had different drop 'tables' based on mlvl and ilvl. But it was still different for each boss based on what difficulty you are in. So, yes, difficulty does have an impact on the quality of drops, indirectly, since it increases monster levels.
But you are completely right in the sense that monster level is what determines the quality of items.
My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
Ok, one of us isn't communicating correctly. Monster Power DOES NOT affect monster level, and therefore DOES NOT affect item level or item quality. The only exception to this is when switching monster power on or off on Inferno, and only in act 1/2. The ONLY thing that affects monster level, and therefore item level and item quality, pre-Inferno is your location and your difficulty.
So, are you suggesting that they remove the difficulty settings altogether and just have everything scaled through Monster Power?
Ok, one of us isn't communicating correctly. Monster Power DOES NOT affect monster level, and therefore DOES NOT affect item level or item quality. The only exception to this is when switching monster power on or off on Inferno, and only in act 1/2. The ONLY thing that affects monster level, and therefore item level and item quality, pre-Inferno is your location and your difficulty.
So, are you suggesting that they remove the difficulty settings altogether and just have everything scaled through Monster Power?
You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
That's exactly what I implied in that single sentence. I apologize I'm not a gifted writer or good at breaking things down without feeling like I'm demeaning people. I tend to opt for efficiency/being concise and hope people can read between the lines. As I do.
You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
That's exactly what I implied in that single sentence. I apologize I'm not a gifted writer or good at breaking things down without feeling like I'm demeaning people. I tend to opt for efficiency and hope people can read between the lines. As I do.
In that case, I'll just say what I said in Cardinal's thread about this: I'd prefer they keep Normal/Nightmare/Hell as a difficulty progression, partly out of a sense of tradition, and partly because they would have to completely redo how people level from 1 to 60 (70) without difficulties to frame the level progression around. They could do it, but it really isn't necessary since most people are not going to level up new characters nearly as frequently as they did as D2, so the focus should be on the level cap.
My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
Well, MY point (:P) was this: if you have a new difficulty that has no new items, nobody will play it consistently (some will play it for the challenge, but will soon return to the 'farmable' difficulty, because they can earn every item there anyway); if you have a new difficulty with the best items, everyone will want to play it (because every single player of this game wants to eventually have the best items), therefore it will feel (and be) mandatory, the same way Inferno feels (and is) mandatory, because it drops the best items.
That's all I was saying.
I've read every post in this thread and not a single one suggests that a higher difficulty would not have increased loot.
Anyone that thinks that well, let's just assume that nobody would think it.. because it should go without saying. So much so that I figured your post wasn't a captain obvious post and you were concerned how item progression could work.
It doesn't change a thing if you use difficulties, monster power, or how many times you've clicked your mouse with your toes in order to determine item drops. It can, should and shall always be scaled with the most difficult and demanding providing the best loot possible.
Otherwise it doesn't fit Blizzards vision.
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Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
This change could also be just them renaming a certain difficulty to prevent problems when translating the game to other languages.
As an example, in portuguese (Brazil's and Portugal's language), Inferno and Hell have pretty much the same meaning. Inferno can also be used to describe a fire out of control (iirc), but in the current context it's more tied to the idea of a "Burning Hell" imo. I'm pretty sure the word "inferno" has latin (the language) origin, while Hell probably has an anglo-saxon origin.
So in the translated Diablo 3 versions (like the console one which can't be changed to english... <- patch this pl0x Blizz!) Hell is translated as Tormenta, which conveys the idea of a "mental Hell", a "psychological torment"... And Inferno is left as Inferno (which is what Hell is actually translated to in portuguese, we don't have 2 words for this same idea as you do in english).
I don't know if other latin languages have this same problem (Italian, Spanish, French).
What you guys discussed is also doable by the way. But I think the 4-difficulty format works pretty well - at least for me it does, going from Normal -> Inferno seems to be a lot faster (and more varied gameplay and skill-wise) in D3 than it was in D2 anyways.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inferno
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hell
Inferno, indeed, is from Latin, and hell seems to basically be Germanic.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I really doubt it though, I'm with Bullerick on it becoming Normal, Torment, Inferno.
And may the odds be ever in your favour.
Emmo#2406
In Italian Hell is Inferno and Inferno is... Inferno
So the current translation is:
Hell --> Abisso (Abyss in english)
Inferno --> Inferno
Torment would be translated as Tormento I guess
Knowing blizzard this is also a marketing thing to keep from having to say "the revamped hell" so they can instead say "all new difficutly mode" even though it's just a rework. Speculation speculation. Blizzcon would have to be a month away...
This is starting to take shape. ^^
Ha. Bagstone.
I had this thought when discussing it in my thread, too. The fact that in Inferno, you find the best items, but adding a fifth difficulty would mean better items should drop.
Currently, items of level 58-63 drop in Inferno. I was thinking...if Torment were added AFTER Inferno, alongside the addition of the expansion (which would be a good place to add it in), you could have items level 58-65 drop in Inferno, and Torment could drop items level 66-73.
I mean, that seems the simplest solution...just in terms of item level.
I think you both are forgetting in diablo2 things were based on treasure class (think ilvl) and it was dependent on the mob/area, not act. You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
Not sure I follow you. As I understand it, in D3, the stats of an item are dependent on the level of the monster that drops it, which is determined by their location in the game and difficulty mode, same as D2. In Inferno, the monster level is determined solely by which act you are in, if you are in MP0, and 63 across the board in MP1 or higher. MP has no impact on the monster level or quality of items, only the frequency at which items drop (by adjusting MF%)
In D3 the potential properties an item rolls is dependent on the iLvl of the item. The iLvl is determined by the monster's level that drops it. If you play Act 1/2 on MP0 it sure as hell will impact the quality of items you drop. It's just that very few people play Act 1/2 on MP0 at this point, so it seems that monster level has no impact in D3.
In diablo 2 the difficulty did effect the treasure class and ilvl but it was still mob specific. For example Diablo, Nithalak and Baal were higher than any other mobs in the game, pindle/frozenstein were the next highest. They dropped different ilvls and higher potential treasure class than anything else.
Btw in d2 the difficulty didn't really switch it from 1-25 to 26-50 or anything in terms of tc. It was more like 1-25 to 1-50. You could still get short bows in act 5 hell, they were just as common as getting a ward bow.
In D3 Act 1 drops up to 62? But if you put it on monster power 1 it makes everything drop up to 63.
Bottom line; Mob/monster level determines the drops. If monster power increases mlvl then it increases ilvl too. Subtracting or adding difficulties doesn't have to have any effect on ilvl. Since monster power does the same thing better.
p.s. I do realize that means you wouldn't be able to do MP 10 on a lvl 1 char but that is not necessary for a good experience.
My point was that there is no difference in terms of item quality between MP1 and MP10 since increasing MP does not increase monster level, it only increases monster stats directly. There is a difference between MP0 and MP1, but only on act 1/2 Inferno. Nowhere else does MP have an effect on the quality of the items that drop, only the quantity.
You are right that bosses in D2 had different drop 'tables' based on mlvl and ilvl. But it was still different for each boss based on what difficulty you are in. So, yes, difficulty does have an impact on the quality of drops, indirectly, since it increases monster levels.
But you are completely right in the sense that monster level is what determines the quality of items.
My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
Ok, one of us isn't communicating correctly. Monster Power DOES NOT affect monster level, and therefore DOES NOT affect item level or item quality. The only exception to this is when switching monster power on or off on Inferno, and only in act 1/2. The ONLY thing that affects monster level, and therefore item level and item quality, pre-Inferno is your location and your difficulty.
So, are you suggesting that they remove the difficulty settings altogether and just have everything scaled through Monster Power?
That's exactly what I implied in that single sentence. I apologize I'm not a gifted writer or good at breaking things down without feeling like I'm demeaning people. I tend to opt for efficiency/being concise and hope people can read between the lines. As I do.
In that case, I'll just say what I said in Cardinal's thread about this: I'd prefer they keep Normal/Nightmare/Hell as a difficulty progression, partly out of a sense of tradition, and partly because they would have to completely redo how people level from 1 to 60 (70) without difficulties to frame the level progression around. They could do it, but it really isn't necessary since most people are not going to level up new characters nearly as frequently as they did as D2, so the focus should be on the level cap.
I've read every post in this thread and not a single one suggests that a higher difficulty would not have increased loot.
Anyone that thinks that well, let's just assume that nobody would think it.. because it should go without saying. So much so that I figured your post wasn't a captain obvious post and you were concerned how item progression could work.
It doesn't change a thing if you use difficulties, monster power, or how many times you've clicked your mouse with your toes in order to determine item drops. It can, should and shall always be scaled with the most difficult and demanding providing the best loot possible.
Otherwise it doesn't fit Blizzards vision.