My thoughts exactly. Its so easy to play the game in your head and predict the value of skills.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
It takes an equally geared wizard 25% longer to kill the Skeleton king than any other class in patch 15!
As said by Blizzard, the game is currently under heavy balance (since it's always the last thing to do). Facts like these aren't particularly useful at this time.
It takes an equally geared wizard 25% longer to kill the Skeleton king than any other class in patch 15!
As said by Blizzard, the game is currently under heavy balance (since it's always the last thing to do). Facts like these aren't particularly useful at this time.
Of course they are useful. Because its proof the class is undertuned atm. It may change in patch 16, sure. If it does, I will examine it again.
-I agree Wizard on paper looks weak. Wizard do, however, have superior crowd control and armor abilities than the other range classes which are in the comparison. The Wizard is not supposed to be a glass cannon - not neccesarily at least.
- The Hungering Arrow calculation is by the way way off. The arrow will have an average of ~225% weapon damage. This have however not always been the case. Just a few patches ago hungering arrow did 85% weapon dmd instead of 115%. Blizzard are doing their best covering ground.
- Nothing is final - I do however enjoy theory crafting such as this.
- Saying hungering arrow is better than arcane bolt is like saying hydra is better than turret. The comparison is weak.
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
PS: How are the calculations way off for hungering arrow again? Seem fine to me, and your number only differs by 5%.
The 300% calculation on Hungering Arrow is calculated on nothing but assumptions (assuming the arrow will split a certain way, assuming they will be guided, assuming that they will always hit three targets etc).
And if Hydra is better than Turret, why weren't this comparison in the original post? Wouldn't it be relevant to present fact promoting the Wizard as well?
This comparison is by the way, as good as my former one in a thread which also received a LOT of hate and accused me of trolling:
Wrath of the Berserker - 50 fury cost - lasts 15 seconds
45% ias
20% dodge
20% movement speed
10% crit
So Shadow Power requires 66% of all discpline, lasts for half the duration of Wrath of the Berserker and is worse in every possible way.
Berserker requires 50% of all fury and is better in every aspect.
Sure, fury is also required for barbarian offensive spells (while demon hunter has hatred), but I still find it oddly unbalanced on paper.
Spells will remain unbalanced to eachother. I've accepted it (that does, however, not make me convinced the final characters will be any more unbalanced). He who lives shall see if the classes are terribly broken or viable. The Wizard is obviously not broken in late game. She is being tried out at Blizzard HQ as we speak atm. Yet, they did not patch her.
Maybe because hydra and turret don't make a good comparison.
Wrath of the berserker is a 2 min cooldown, and shadow power doesn't even give IAS anymore.
The barb and the DH use completely different types of resource mechanics, not so for the WD/Wiz/DH.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Sumsar, you also forget discipline, which will have a huge impact on the DH resource.
Look at Preparation with rune Punishment. Turns 20 discipline into full hatred. No CD. All the rune effects and items that will work with discipline regen, even mentioning base Regen is stupid. Especially when you ignored discipline completely.
That single ability and rune choice makes discipline worth more than its weight in gold for burst damage.
no /thread, thread still open
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
May have been said somehwere in this thread already:
But the Wizard has the most "OP" if you want to call it that resource regeneration. You don't have to do anything, it just comes back. And qucikly. To ballance that, I would say it makes perfect sense for some of the %s to be smaller than other classes.
My thoughts exactly. Its so easy to play the game in your head and predict the value of skills.
Still you're enable to do that. Because you don't realise a wizard can cast 5 or 6 meteors in 20 seconds while DH casts 2 cluster arrows (3 max). You don't really in D3 we're more limited by resources then by time (when it comes down to use heavy resource spenders).
Well if you don't want to take resources in consideration and just compare weapon damage % thats your problem. I've given enough reasons why this analysis is wrong and you refuse to present any arguments against that. I'll just assume you've none and are just too stubborn to accept yo'ure wrong from the start.
Uhm...because they said so. In fact, the expression 'glass cannon' was always used by Blizzard to describe the Wiz. That's the whole point of this thread. Blizzard hyped the Wizard as this super-fragile class that could dish out HUGE amounts of damage, and that's not really the case. At best he's on a par with the other classes in terms of damage. And that's not what we were promised.
Ah, there, my Caps Lock's fixed.
It depends on what you call 'Glass Cannon'. If you mean the Wizard can't do huge burst damage I will have to agree. Unless you use Archon of course (which have two 1000% weapon damage abilities).
But the wizard generally can sustain really high DPS, higher then any other class, because he can much more freely spam his resource spenders abilities.
The low level WD cannot be compered to an wizard, because WD's mana pool and skill costs increase with levels, but not his mana regeneration. Low level WD = Wiz when it comes down to resources. But as he level ups, he resource start to look like what we're familiar with.
An high Wd will not be able to spam his firebats at each single fight, like a wizard do with arcane orb. He simply can't regen his reosurce as quickly and automatic. Even if he gets other tools, those tools are also limited. In even simplier words:
Under "balanced resource rules" (which means playing your class trying to keep your resource bar full at the start of the next fight) an WD can't use firebats or zombie chargers at each single enemy he faces, but an wizard can use arcane orbs almost at will.
This build has sustained +71% end damage multiplier. If enemies are frozen by frost nova your multiplier is +104%. If you're inside slow times area, it is +124%. Now if you trigger Arcane Dynamo it is the ridicolous +293% damage multiplier. The wizard is the only can who can TRIPLE his damage, if he chooses to abandon a few defensive options. and he has the strongest single target ability in the game, Ray of Frost.
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
Maybe because hydra and turret don't make a good comparison.
Wrath of the berserker is a 2 min cooldown, and shadow power doesn't even give IAS anymore.
The barb and the DH use completely different types of resource mechanics, not so for the WD/Wiz/DH.
You just compared Hydra and Turret and now you claim they don't make a good comparison? Your credability is dropping as we speak. One might think you'll change your mind about hungering arrow as well soon.
By the way - if we are to say Hungering Arrow deals 230% weapon damage, we can also state that Magic Missile deals 220% weapon damage (Penetrating blast). Because on paper, that's true. Hence, the dmg difference between them is neglectable. The difference will be hungering is guided while Magic Missile is not. This is overall a better thing, but in some cases it's better to not have guided (for instance when killing fallen shamans or other summoners).
By the way: The comparison between WOTB and Shadow Power was, at the time, correct. WOTB had no cooldown according to patch notes and was better in every way. The resource system was off, JUST LIKE YOURS IS:
Hence, the demon hunter relies a lot more on spamming hatred regenerators rather than spenders. She therefore needs strong hatred regenerators to be able to compeat with wizard who will use more ap spenders.
/thread
Ahh no....There are lots of viable builds that can be made with a DH that has 0 generators.
Its not even remotely hard.
You need to consider a lot of things,
DH's gear has Hatred/Sec on it.
The DH can get bat companion and templar and his Hatred generation doubled. I know you can get Astral Presence and arcanot as a wizard, but they are nowhere near as large of a buff. Also Arcanot is terrible.
He has numerous skills that turn Disc into Hatred. Something a wizard absolutely can't do.
He has numerous cheap spells, like elemental arrow.
And most importantly his generators actually generate Hatred, they don't need to be runed to do so.
Ohh and his generators actually deal a good amount of dmg, and even have 2nd uses like back flip.
You have to consider all that, not just say "lolz wiz regen is higher so he wins!"
My thoughts exactly. Its so easy to play the game in your head and predict the value of skills.
Still you're enable to do that. Because you don't realise a wizard can cast 5 or 6 meteors in 20 seconds while DH casts 2 cluster arrows (3 max). You don't really in D3 we're more limited by resources then by time (when it comes down to use heavy resource spenders).
Again you are thinking in 1D. Your math skills are terrible.
See above.
The wizard is no longer a glass cannon anymore, as her damage is middle of the road at best.
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
The DH can get bat companion and templar and his Hatred generation doubled. I know you can get Astral Presence and arcanot as a wizard, but they are nowhere near as large of a buff. Also Arcanot is terrible.
Prodigy is another great buff too, don't forget about that.
He has numerous skills that turn Disc into Hatred. Something a wizard absolutely can't do.
And by doing that you loose your defensive abilities resource (in case you use preparation for that) or use smoke screen, which costs alot of discipline and return mediocre hatred return.
In one case and in the other, you can't use those skills to contanstly keep up hatred renerator unless you want to die for the lack of discipline.
He has numerous cheap spells, like elemental arrow.
Elemental arrow is really good, i will give you that. But it nowhere makes DH an glass cannon and a Wizard a inferior "glass cannon", which is the entire point of this thread.
And most importantly his generators actually generate Hatred, they don't need to be runed to do so.
Yeah, but you're not seeing how little this advantage is.
i. Those generators only recovers 3 hatred per use, in an 125 hatred pool.
ii. You can only generate it if you have targets. It simply doesn't count in out of combat situations.
iii. Wizard can reach similar standards too. Prodigy + Rune makes him recover 7 AP of 100 AP pool. Loosing damage in signature spells is a small burden for the wizard since his AP regen is awesome and he count on his spenders much more frequently.
My entire poitn is, Wiz, out of all classes, is the one who can who has the best resource regen. Only I idiot would not accept that.
Again you are thinking in 1D. Your math skills are terrible. See above.
The wizard is no longer a glass cannon anymore, as her damage is middle of the road at best.
My math skills are terrible ?
First, the OP is the one thinking in one dimension (damage dimension - he only compared the weapon damage % of two skills). I"m the one adding multiple dimensions to the problem (time and resource dimensions).
Second, if my math skills are terrible, yours are inexistent. Saying "you didn't take factor x, y and z" in consideration without measuring the impact of those factors in the final result is ridicolous statement. Or you calculate stuff and show me the numbers, or you assume they are irrelevant and shut up about it. Phylosophically concerning about a billion variables without working on the mathematically is no math skill, it's actually the opposite of it. Ever heard of model theory ? I put my hand on fire you haven't.
I'm saying since my first post, if you want an final mathematically correct conclusion about this problem, build an simulation with all variables. You will find out that the DPS differences between WD, Wiz and DH in an two skill simulation are irrelevant (the Wiz wins by an small margin, using Ray of Frost and Spectral Blades combo).
You will also find yourself comparing different builds, not differen classes.
And the wizard does not take 20% more time to SK. If you're taking this time is because you're newbie and don't know how to build an character, not even in the beta. Get 40 DPS gear, pick this build http://us.battle.net...ard#aZdY!Z!a..a and go kill SK. You're problably kill it as fats as a monk, a barb and a DH. You won't do it as fast as WD because of Soul Harvest and Haunt.
Again, this is not a discussion on "how wizards are not dpsy enough" but how Soul Harvest is ridicolously strong.
No the wizard has AP on Crit, which is far more random.
Yah Prodigy is pretty good. It actually allows your generators to generate, though it costs a passive to do so.
He does not lose his defensive abilities. Shadow Power / Smoke Screen are great defensive abilities and can generate hatred. Even if he did, that would by definition make him more like a glass cannon.
He has cheap skills. You didn't even bother to make a rebuttal to that one I see. Just an absurd comment about how that doesn't make him a glass cannon. Ahh ok, I never said it did.
Generators generate 3, 4, 6, 8 Hatred depending on which you get actually.
You can actually cast at the air and regenerate if you need to.(Which you actually do quite frequently, when killing barrels and what not.)
A wizard will likely have more than 100 AP. Though you are correct, you can get your generators up to par to DH with enough skills. Of course in that scenario your magic missile will be doing less than HALF the dmg of hungering arrow.
You apparently know absolutely nothing about the DH.
Sure the wizard has the highest base regen. Big Whoop! You are saying 10>4, and that is correct, do you want a cookie? However, you are saying to ignore every other factor and declare that the wizard can cast her spenders more, thus averaging out the dmg. But that is simply not true.
Yes your math skills are quite terrible.
3 zombie bears at 60 with full mana?!
Only manage 5-6 meteors in 20 seconds?!
Only manage 2 cluster arrows in 20 seconds?! You are just saying 10 > 4 again!!!
HORRIBLE!
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Your build currently has only 80 Arcane Power due to Energy Armor.
Also ALL spells are affected by your weapon speed, so spectral blade doesn't gain any more than other signatures from that perspective.
As for Arcane Orb - I always preferred the reduced cost rune rather than that extra damage, if you look at Arcane Power per Damage you'll see it's better to spam it more often than make it dish more burst (unless we're talking pvp or kiting).
Don't forget you have to consider the # of casts and the signature spells weaved in,
Lets say you have 1.5 APS.
Regen is 12 AP/sec = 8 AP/cast
Obliteration 228% @ 27 AP
Tap the source 175% @12 AP
Spectral Blade 135% @ -8 AP
So, to maintain neutral AP expenditure
1.5 Spectral Blades to sustain Tap the Source - AO.
3.375 Spectral Blades to sustain Obliteration - AO.
Avg dmg with neutral AP expenditure,
Tap the source: (1.5*135+175)/2.5 = 151% wpn dmg
Obliteration (3.375*135+228)/4.375 = 156.3% wpn dmg
Example of real game scenario.
6 x Obliterate = 1368% @ 162
8 x Spectral = 1080% @-64
--------------------------------------
Total: 2448% @ 98 AP expended
To match that dmg output would require
14 x Tap the Source = 2450 @ 168 expended
(Without a lot of +AP gear/skills, would not be possible, and the expended AP is a full 70 higher)
Bottom line: Don't underestimate expensive spells + weaving in signatures. Other rune choices drastically lower the cost, but you also have to consider the lost GCD to cast the 2nd orb will be replaced by a signature. HOWEVER, if we were to replaced spectral blade with say electrocute, then we would have seen the a slightly different outcome.
Example of real game scenario.
6 x Obliterate = 1368% @ 162
8 x Electrocute = 640% @-64
--------------------------------------
Total: 2008% @ 98 AP expended
To match that dmg output would require
10 x Tap the Source = 1750% @ 120 expended
4 x Electrocute = 320% @ -32 AP
----------------------------------
Total: 2070% @ 88 AP expended
Though, even in this scenario its still pretty damn close.
Here you can see just how important the GENERATOR dmg output really is, and being able to spam a cheap spell isn't always the best plan.
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
I usually don't do this, but you're a hopeless case. You're not reading what we are writing. You want to be right so bad that you don't even realise how epicly stupid you sound. You are not listening to a single point we're making. We're not saying DH is inferior to Wizard. We're just displaying how the classes have different strenghts and customiziation options. You're just looking at small aspects of the classes and saying "THIS IS BAD. THIS IS GOOD. THIS IS OP. THIS IS UNDERPOWERED. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THIS, BUT ITS NOT" etc etc.
I give up and leave thread. I, as well as italofoca, have left several facts for the readers who are actually interested in the topic and not in the art of being correct. Wizard is a strong class, so is DH. No officials promised Wizard would deal more dmg than DH - anyone who claims that are speaking lies. The classes are and will remain equally as powerful.
I'm out of here, forever - never to return. Lost cause.
I posted a page full of math, you posted BS opinions based on nothing.
All your arguments can be summarized as '10>4, therefore it all works out somehow.'
We are not saying the wizard can't kill things. We are saying that she is not the glass cannon with amazing aoe dmg that we were told about. The numbers are right there, staring you in the face. Its plain as day to see.
When meteor, our most powerful spell, fails to compete with similar spells of other classes then there is a problem. We have mediocre AoE, which is at best on par with other classes, yet almost no single target capability. There is obviously a problem here, even if you don't think the wizard should be a glass cannon.
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Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
People are missing the point of the OP. He's comparing 1 specific skill/rune from Wizard vs 1 specific skill/rune for a different class.
Class balance was never never never never the concern when creating class abilities. Its the whole reason they chose not to do do ranked PvP. And PvP when it was there was group PvP. That allowed for crazy ideas to abilities, some of which we now have.
If you look at the Wizard vs DH and look at all the skills and passives, the Wizard has a much better bursty dmg ability and utility. Here's the kind of comparison that I think we need to make if we want to complain about the class being under/over powered.
If you complain about this wizard example using so many slot abilities/passives to achieve this, then realise that this comparison is ONLY to calc the max possible damage as far as I can tell from the OP and I didn't choose the spells. Also, there were no other skills I cound find that would add damage to the spell for 1 round, where as the wizard had more than enough to fill all 6 slots.
Which only proves that a spell vs spell comparison between classes that were not meant to be balanced is illogical.
------------------------------------------------------ Assumption: All the damage happens in 1 round (ie. Only 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs not included) Assumption: 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs already pre-cast Assumption: Ignoring all Resource Regen Assumption: Both using a weapon with the same weapon speed
------------------------------------------------------
Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow: 115%+35% = 150% (I am adding all DOT damage into 1 round) (I have no idea how to calc for pierce and I have seen no math telling me exactly how to do this)
Marked for Death: Marks an enemy for the next 30sec dealing 12% additional damage
Archery - Bow: 15% increased damage
Steady Aim: 20% increased damage if no mobs in 10 yards
So in 1 Round with Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow, a demon hunter can do 197% Damage. - If using Bows - If no mobs in 10 yards - Every 30 secs, Marked for Death is recast
Cull the Weak - If mobs is slowed do 15% more damage This was the only other ability/passive I could find to potentially increase Hungering Arrow's damage. Although I don't profess to be an expert on DH's abilties.
-------------------------------------------------------
Magic Missile-Charged Blast: 143% Arcane Damage
Familiar-Sparkflint : Adds 32% dmg for 120 secs
Magic Weapon-Force Weapon: Adds 15% dmg for 120 secs
Glass Cannon-15% to all damage
So in 1 Round with Magic Missile-Charged Blast, a wizard can do 205% Damage - Every 120 secs, Familiar+Magic Weapon is recast Also this will apply this (62%) to every single damage spell for the wizard
Slow time-Time Warp: Adds 20% more damage for 8 secs if caught in the Time Warp Mirror Image-Mirror Mimics: Potentially adds 10% dmg Archon-Improved Archon: In terms of burst damage, this supposedly adds 1250% dmg for 15secs
These 3 abilities can also be added to increase that 1 round of damage. Mirror Image as far as I know is not 100% guranteed damage, Slow time has a 20sec cooldown but it is consistent, and Archon has a super high cooldown but again, 1250% damage?!? Holy hell, Wrath of the Bezerker for the Barbarian might be a counterpart but I'm pretty sure the DH has no such equivlent.
-------------------------------------------------------
And still people are talking like the OP said "Wizard is less powerful than the other classes". He didn't. I don't like the OP, I don't like his posts (usually) or his tone, but you're throwing straw man replies at him To me, the Wizard doesn't feel like more of a glass cannon than the DH does. And it's supposed to. That's what this discussion should boil down to.
And still people are talking like the OP said "Wizard is less powerful than the other classes". He didn't. I don't like the OP, I don't like his posts (usually) or his tone, but you're throwing straw man replies at him To me, the Wizard doesn't feel like more of a glass cannon than the DH does. And it's supposed to. That's what this discussion should boil down to.
Devouring Arrow = 280% wpn dmg on avg
Impale is 250% dmg noncrit and 625% or 750% on crits (Depending on interpretation of skill)
Fan of Knives is 464% dmg
Rain of Vengeance is 408% wpn dmg
There are 4 % dmg modifiers,
+12% Mark of death
+20% Steady Aim
+15% Bow
+15% Cull of the weak
Now compare that to your pathetic 280%, except that you won't be able to stand around forever and cast that. Even if you could the average %wpn dmg is far less than 280% given the amount of regen you have, and the increased attack speed from time warp actually lowers that average as well.
Then when you run out of arcane power in ~10 seconds, the only thing you can do for the next 10 seconds is cast that shitty arcane missile, which barely hits harder than your stupid wand. Assuming equal use thats only about 200% wpn dmg on average. Is this shit starting to sink in yet?
Your % dmg buffs are Identical to the DHs. Hell forget everything else I wrote, the DH could beat you with the buffs and Devouring Arrow, ROFL!!!
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Devouring Arrow = 280% wpn dmg on avg
Impale is 250% dmg noncrit and 625% or 750% on crits (Depending on interpretation of skill)
Fan of Knives is 464% dmg
Rain of Vengeance is 408% wpn dmg
There are 4 % dmg modifiers,
+12% Mark of death
+20% Steady Aim
+15% Bow
+15% Cull of the weak
Someone else showed that Devouring Hunger does more like 220% later on in that thread where you posted your (very speculative), and I'm not sure if even that one takes into account that it only triggers after 2 consecutive pierces, not every pierce. Everyone else who has crunched the numbers has come up with it being behind Piercing Arrow. And those times when it does do high damage are few and far between, so it is not reliable. The vast majority of the time you'll be doing 115% with Devouring
Your passives damage boosts are not as good as Wizard passives. Cull the Weak is very conditional - you're not going to be able to get 100% of all mobs slowed by caltrops 100% of the time, so on average it probably does something more like 7% or 8% damage increase rather than 15%. And the fact that you have to spend every 8 seconds casting Caltrops instead of a damaging ability reduces your damage further (you'll have to spend time casting Mark on mobs too). Steady Aim is also conditional; you'll often not be able to stay 10 yards away from mobs. And it directly conflicts with FoK and Rain of Vengeance, where you need to be near the mobs for both.
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QFT
My thoughts exactly. Its so easy to play the game in your head and predict the value of skills.
Epicurus
As said by Blizzard, the game is currently under heavy balance (since it's always the last thing to do). Facts like these aren't particularly useful at this time.
Maybe because hydra and turret don't make a good comparison.
Wrath of the berserker is a 2 min cooldown, and shadow power doesn't even give IAS anymore.
The barb and the DH use completely different types of resource mechanics, not so for the WD/Wiz/DH.
Epicurus
Look at Preparation with rune Punishment. Turns 20 discipline into full hatred. No CD. All the rune effects and items that will work with discipline regen, even mentioning base Regen is stupid. Especially when you ignored discipline completely.
That single ability and rune choice makes discipline worth more than its weight in gold for burst damage.
no /thread, thread still open
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
But the Wizard has the most "OP" if you want to call it that resource regeneration. You don't have to do anything, it just comes back. And qucikly. To ballance that, I would say it makes perfect sense for some of the %s to be smaller than other classes.
Still you're enable to do that. Because you don't realise a wizard can cast 5 or 6 meteors in 20 seconds while DH casts 2 cluster arrows (3 max). You don't really in D3 we're more limited by resources then by time (when it comes down to use heavy resource spenders).
Well if you don't want to take resources in consideration and just compare weapon damage % thats your problem. I've given enough reasons why this analysis is wrong and you refuse to present any arguments against that. I'll just assume you've none and are just too stubborn to accept yo'ure wrong from the start.
It depends on what you call 'Glass Cannon'. If you mean the Wizard can't do huge burst damage I will have to agree. Unless you use Archon of course (which have two 1000% weapon damage abilities).
But the wizard generally can sustain really high DPS, higher then any other class, because he can much more freely spam his resource spenders abilities.
The low level WD cannot be compered to an wizard, because WD's mana pool and skill costs increase with levels, but not his mana regeneration. Low level WD = Wiz when it comes down to resources. But as he level ups, he resource start to look like what we're familiar with.
An high Wd will not be able to spam his firebats at each single fight, like a wizard do with arcane orb. He simply can't regen his reosurce as quickly and automatic. Even if he gets other tools, those tools are also limited. In even simplier words:
Under "balanced resource rules" (which means playing your class trying to keep your resource bar full at the start of the next fight) an WD can't use firebats or zombie chargers at each single enemy he faces, but an wizard can use arcane orbs almost at will.
And wizards CAN be the glass cannon. He has more damage buffs then any other classes. His the only class who can trade defensive abilities for several damage buffs. Ex: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#aZYSjg!WYT!bbcZac
This build has sustained +71% end damage multiplier. If enemies are frozen by frost nova your multiplier is +104%. If you're inside slow times area, it is +124%. Now if you trigger Arcane Dynamo it is the ridicolous +293% damage multiplier. The wizard is the only can who can TRIPLE his damage, if he chooses to abandon a few defensive options. and he has the strongest single target ability in the game, Ray of Frost.
Ahh no....There are lots of viable builds that can be made with a DH that has 0 generators.
Its not even remotely hard.
Whole thread dedicated to this,
http://www.diablofan...s/page__st__140
You need to consider a lot of things,
DH's gear has Hatred/Sec on it.
The DH can get bat companion and templar and his Hatred generation doubled. I know you can get Astral Presence and arcanot as a wizard, but they are nowhere near as large of a buff. Also Arcanot is terrible.
He has numerous skills that turn Disc into Hatred. Something a wizard absolutely can't do.
He has numerous cheap spells, like elemental arrow.
And most importantly his generators actually generate Hatred, they don't need to be runed to do so.
Ohh and his generators actually deal a good amount of dmg, and even have 2nd uses like back flip.
You have to consider all that, not just say "lolz wiz regen is higher so he wins!"
Again you are thinking in 1D. Your math skills are terrible.
See above.
The wizard is no longer a glass cannon anymore, as her damage is middle of the road at best.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
You say the Wizard is supposed to be the "best" at this and that...no.
Also, you can't base any of this off of the beta build. Our build is behind what the final product is and what they play internally.
You're also basing all of this crap on lvl 13...come on now.
I'm not saying the Wizard isn't behind on some things, it's possible, but the way you came to that conclusion is completely wrong.
Wizard too.
Prodigy is another great buff too, don't forget about that.
And by doing that you loose your defensive abilities resource (in case you use preparation for that) or use smoke screen, which costs alot of discipline and return mediocre hatred return.
In one case and in the other, you can't use those skills to contanstly keep up hatred renerator unless you want to die for the lack of discipline.
Elemental arrow is really good, i will give you that. But it nowhere makes DH an glass cannon and a Wizard a inferior "glass cannon", which is the entire point of this thread.
Yeah, but you're not seeing how little this advantage is.
i. Those generators only recovers 3 hatred per use, in an 125 hatred pool.
ii. You can only generate it if you have targets. It simply doesn't count in out of combat situations.
iii. Wizard can reach similar standards too. Prodigy + Rune makes him recover 7 AP of 100 AP pool. Loosing damage in signature spells is a small burden for the wizard since his AP regen is awesome and he count on his spenders much more frequently.
My entire poitn is, Wiz, out of all classes, is the one who can who has the best resource regen. Only I idiot would not accept that.
My math skills are terrible ?
First, the OP is the one thinking in one dimension (damage dimension - he only compared the weapon damage % of two skills). I"m the one adding multiple dimensions to the problem (time and resource dimensions).
Second, if my math skills are terrible, yours are inexistent. Saying "you didn't take factor x, y and z" in consideration without measuring the impact of those factors in the final result is ridicolous statement. Or you calculate stuff and show me the numbers, or you assume they are irrelevant and shut up about it. Phylosophically concerning about a billion variables without working on the mathematically is no math skill, it's actually the opposite of it. Ever heard of model theory ? I put my hand on fire you haven't.
I'm saying since my first post, if you want an final mathematically correct conclusion about this problem, build an simulation with all variables. You will find out that the DPS differences between WD, Wiz and DH in an two skill simulation are irrelevant (the Wiz wins by an small margin, using Ray of Frost and Spectral Blades combo).
You will also find yourself comparing different builds, not differen classes.
And the wizard does not take 20% more time to SK. If you're taking this time is because you're newbie and don't know how to build an character, not even in the beta. Get 40 DPS gear, pick this build http://us.battle.net...ard#aZdY!Z!a..a and go kill SK. You're problably kill it as fats as a monk, a barb and a DH. You won't do it as fast as WD because of Soul Harvest and Haunt.
Again, this is not a discussion on "how wizards are not dpsy enough" but how Soul Harvest is ridicolously strong.
Yah Prodigy is pretty good. It actually allows your generators to generate, though it costs a passive to do so.
He does not lose his defensive abilities. Shadow Power / Smoke Screen are great defensive abilities and can generate hatred. Even if he did, that would by definition make him more like a glass cannon.
He has cheap skills. You didn't even bother to make a rebuttal to that one I see. Just an absurd comment about how that doesn't make him a glass cannon. Ahh ok, I never said it did.
Generators generate 3, 4, 6, 8 Hatred depending on which you get actually.
You can actually cast at the air and regenerate if you need to.(Which you actually do quite frequently, when killing barrels and what not.)
A wizard will likely have more than 100 AP. Though you are correct, you can get your generators up to par to DH with enough skills. Of course in that scenario your magic missile will be doing less than HALF the dmg of hungering arrow.
You apparently know absolutely nothing about the DH.
Sure the wizard has the highest base regen. Big Whoop! You are saying 10>4, and that is correct, do you want a cookie? However, you are saying to ignore every other factor and declare that the wizard can cast her spenders more, thus averaging out the dmg. But that is simply not true.
Yes your math skills are quite terrible.
3 zombie bears at 60 with full mana?!
Only manage 5-6 meteors in 20 seconds?!
Only manage 2 cluster arrows in 20 seconds?! You are just saying 10 > 4 again!!!
HORRIBLE!
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Here you can see just how important the GENERATOR dmg output really is, and being able to spam a cheap spell isn't always the best plan.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
I posted a page full of math, you posted BS opinions based on nothing.
All your arguments can be summarized as '10>4, therefore it all works out somehow.'
We are not saying the wizard can't kill things. We are saying that she is not the glass cannon with amazing aoe dmg that we were told about. The numbers are right there, staring you in the face. Its plain as day to see.
When meteor, our most powerful spell, fails to compete with similar spells of other classes then there is a problem. We have mediocre AoE, which is at best on par with other classes, yet almost no single target capability. There is obviously a problem here, even if you don't think the wizard should be a glass cannon.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Class balance was never never never never the concern when creating class abilities. Its the whole reason they chose not to do do ranked PvP. And PvP when it was there was group PvP. That allowed for crazy ideas to abilities, some of which we now have.
If you look at the Wizard vs DH and look at all the skills and passives, the Wizard has a much better bursty dmg ability and utility. Here's the kind of comparison that I think we need to make if we want to complain about the class being under/over powered.
If you complain about this wizard example using so many slot abilities/passives to achieve this, then realise that this comparison is ONLY to calc the max possible damage as far as I can tell from the OP and I didn't choose the spells. Also, there were no other skills I cound find that would add damage to the spell for 1 round, where as the wizard had more than enough to fill all 6 slots.
Which only proves that a spell vs spell comparison between classes that were not meant to be balanced is illogical.
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Assumption: All the damage happens in 1 round (ie. Only 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs not included)
Assumption: 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs already pre-cast
Assumption: Ignoring all Resource Regen
Assumption: Both using a weapon with the same weapon speed
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Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow: 115%+35% = 150%
(I am adding all DOT damage into 1 round)
(I have no idea how to calc for pierce and I have seen no math telling me exactly how to do this)
Marked for Death: Marks an enemy for the next 30sec dealing 12% additional damage
Archery - Bow: 15% increased damage
Steady Aim: 20% increased damage if no mobs in 10 yards
So in 1 Round with Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow, a demon hunter can do 197% Damage.
- If using Bows
- If no mobs in 10 yards
- Every 30 secs, Marked for Death is recast
Cull the Weak - If mobs is slowed do 15% more damage
This was the only other ability/passive I could find to potentially increase Hungering Arrow's damage.
Although I don't profess to be an expert on DH's abilties.
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Magic Missile-Charged Blast: 143% Arcane Damage
Familiar-Sparkflint : Adds 32% dmg for 120 secs
Magic Weapon-Force Weapon: Adds 15% dmg for 120 secs
Glass Cannon-15% to all damage
So in 1 Round with Magic Missile-Charged Blast, a wizard can do 205% Damage
- Every 120 secs, Familiar+Magic Weapon is recast
Also this will apply this (62%) to every single damage spell for the wizard
Slow time-Time Warp: Adds 20% more damage for 8 secs if caught in the Time Warp
Mirror Image-Mirror Mimics: Potentially adds 10% dmg
Archon-Improved Archon: In terms of burst damage, this supposedly adds 1250% dmg for 15secs
These 3 abilities can also be added to increase that 1 round of damage. Mirror Image as far as I know is not 100% guranteed damage, Slow time has a 20sec cooldown but it is consistent, and Archon has a super high cooldown but again, 1250% damage?!? Holy hell, Wrath of the Bezerker for the Barbarian might be a counterpart but I'm pretty sure the DH has no such equivlent.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/pt/calculator/wizard#aZSjgR!WYT!abZaZZ
Find me a DH build who does more damage then this one against a single target.
Show me what that wizard can kill other than single target!
But if we are going to post BS builds, ok then I can make a non-viable build to show off #s too.
http://us.battle.net...Yjhl!cYe!YccYZa
Devouring Arrow = 280% wpn dmg on avg
Impale is 250% dmg noncrit and 625% or 750% on crits (Depending on interpretation of skill)
Fan of Knives is 464% dmg
Rain of Vengeance is 408% wpn dmg
There are 4 % dmg modifiers,
+12% Mark of death
+20% Steady Aim
+15% Bow
+15% Cull of the weak
Now compare that to your pathetic 280%, except that you won't be able to stand around forever and cast that. Even if you could the average %wpn dmg is far less than 280% given the amount of regen you have, and the increased attack speed from time warp actually lowers that average as well.
Then when you run out of arcane power in ~10 seconds, the only thing you can do for the next 10 seconds is cast that shitty arcane missile, which barely hits harder than your stupid wand. Assuming equal use thats only about 200% wpn dmg on average. Is this shit starting to sink in yet?
Your % dmg buffs are Identical to the DHs. Hell forget everything else I wrote, the DH could beat you with the buffs and Devouring Arrow, ROFL!!!
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Someone else showed that Devouring Hunger does more like 220% later on in that thread where you posted your (very speculative), and I'm not sure if even that one takes into account that it only triggers after 2 consecutive pierces, not every pierce. Everyone else who has crunched the numbers has come up with it being behind Piercing Arrow. And those times when it does do high damage are few and far between, so it is not reliable. The vast majority of the time you'll be doing 115% with Devouring
Your passives damage boosts are not as good as Wizard passives. Cull the Weak is very conditional - you're not going to be able to get 100% of all mobs slowed by caltrops 100% of the time, so on average it probably does something more like 7% or 8% damage increase rather than 15%. And the fact that you have to spend every 8 seconds casting Caltrops instead of a damaging ability reduces your damage further (you'll have to spend time casting Mark on mobs too). Steady Aim is also conditional; you'll often not be able to stay 10 yards away from mobs. And it directly conflicts with FoK and Rain of Vengeance, where you need to be near the mobs for both.