The exact of the hierarchy of the demonic powers is probably unknown. All Prime Evils are the equivalent of lords of Hell, each reigning over a portion of that realm and commanding several legions of warriors. Below them, naturally, are their advisors and lieutenants. As far as I know, however, there is no set hierarchy. Lillith is the daughter of Mephisto and mother of Andariel, and is not officially a Prime Evil. How one becomes a Prime Evil, I don't know. However, with her daughter's passing she may well assume the mantle of Lady of Anguish.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
I would imagine Diablo could sense his brother to the point of not needing to know the actual tomb symbol. What I'd like to know is why he was able to just open some doors while the player actually has to use a staff that tears a hole in the wall to get to the tomb itself.
I believe it was Cain who said that Tal Rasha's chamber was hidden from mortals eyes. It could have been just an illusion, like the orifice room must have been a fake room just like that spell in Kingdom of Shadows where Zayl arrives in some chamber where's there's a ritual happening but he finds it empty (gee it's been ages since I read that book). The hole could have always been there, but you couldn't see it or even get through it.
Diablo didn't need to break the spell because he's a prime evil, so it probably didn't affect him at all.
Quote from "Darbieneverdies" »
What is the Heiarchy(sp?) of Demons, and where do creatures like Lilith fit in?
Lilith is Mephisto's daughter so I guess she should be pretty high in the Demons hierarchy, but right now she's imprisonned in Inarius's void dimension so she's kind of forgotten by all.
The wall in which you make the hole, looks kinda like it was made years after the rest of the temple, and almost like it was made to stop someone getting in, or prehaps out. Seeing as how Tyrael thanks you for freeing him.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
First off, Cholik is dead so I'll assume that you are speaking of Darrick.
Second, Diablo 3 will probably (as the title let it suppose) be centered on Diablo.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to revisit Bramwell and kick the ass of Kabraxis, but I think we're going to do a lot of other stuff in D3 before it comes to that. I think that I'll expect Astrogha to be in D3 more than Kabraxis, just because we've seen him more often in the novels.
If you're not happy this, feel free to make a mod once D3 is released.
If the definition of 'Maiden' is 'virgin', does that mean Andariel, the Maiden of Anguish, is a virgin? lol. Or is she a 'virgin of anguish', that she has never before experienced anguish but inflicts it upon others? I know, there's no real answer lol. Its just a cool-sounding title.
Btw, I was planning on answering the 'Who is Trag'Oul?' question properly, but I guess its not necessary to go all the way with a huge list of quotes lol. Unless someone still wants me to.
That is something to think about, the definition of Maiden, but it is not always a virgin, or is it? When not associated with a virgin it is usually associated with a young woman, or just a woman. The only real exceptions I can think of is the torture device known as the Iron Maiden.
There is a Paladin like Order in DnD where in the warriors are called Maidens of the Light (or hammer, or some such stereotypically holy word), while most are virgins I believe, not all are fair young maidens, some are old codgers and extremely senile. Hardly the vestal virgin image one typically associates with the word Maiden.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
Yeah, thats right, there are a few definitions of maiden. It can also mean 'unmarried girl', or a horse which has never won a race. It seems to be associated with 'has never done something'.
But I think it was really just chosen because it sounds cool, because I Andariel is also described as a Matron by Blood Raven (note my sig). And I don't really think Andariel is the head of a group of nurses lol. Although, you could kind of consider Rogues to be nurses in that they are all female.
Thank goodness you've returned! Much has changed since you lived here my friend. All was peaceful until the Dark Riders came and destroyed our village. Many were cut down were they stood and those who took up arms were slain or dragged away to become slaves - or worse. The church at the edge of town has been desecrated and is being used for dark rituals. The screams that echo in the night are inhuman, but some of out townsfolk may yet survive. Follow the path that lies between my tavern and the blacksmith to find the church and save who you can.
Perhaps I can tell you more if we speak again. Good luck
Maybe it is the corrupted Khanduras knights of their Paladin order flocking to King Leoric's side and slaying people on their way?
Probably wrong, other people are more familiar with Diablo lore than me and im really drawing a blank right now. Perhaps I should re-read some stuff
Dark riders? I don't know who they are exactly. Perhaps they are just corrupted humans? I searched the text (on Solomir's website) for anything, and nothing of their origin is spoken.
But I can't find the quote that references to Wirt's story being foretold in legend. Could you try and find it?
Maybe Blizzards initial intentions for Diablo 1 was too make Deckard Cain more of an old senile storyteller who although has useful information is also a bit messed up. Whereas in Diablo 2 hes much more wise and coherent. Could just be a random peice of information Blizzard forgot about, thats one explanation anyway.
Blizzard didnt plan to have a cow level in Diablo 2 so, they didnt originally plan to have Wirts leg there either. These things were only added after the Diablo 1 rumors started about the Cow Level and Blizzard went along with it
So, the legends that Cain mentioned must be refering to Wirts "wanting to run away from Tristram" and not his leg or the cow level in the next game.
As for the Dark Riders, it must just be corrupted people or the corrupted Knights of Khanduras messing with the townsfolk before descending down to Hell
Edit- or... How did he lose his leg exactly? Maybe hes just lucky to be alive because hes lucky to be alive....
Ah, I see. That is strange. Well, I guess, somewhere in legend there must be a story that tells of a boy who gets taken by hideous creatures; his leg gets chopped off and replaced with a wooden leg; he gets forever tainted by the evil that captured him; his mother dies; he falls in love with someone that isn't suited to him; he gets hold of powerful items and sells them for ridiculous prices in the hopes of running away with the woman he loves; and in the end he is fated to die at the hands of Terror and his wooden leg becomes a key to a portal that leads to crazed demonic cows.
Makes sense. lol. So Cain knew all along about the cow portal then? Heh.
I really have no idea. A lot of these subplots aren't fully explained. Like where Adria came from.
Edit: Wirt lost his leg to the Butcher. He was taken down there, and Griswold saved him.
Edit 2: Actually, it wasn't the Butcher, see my post below.
And we don't know whether Cain was telling those stories to Wirt before or after he lost his leg. If it was after, I don't know what else there could be to tell, other than the cows. But as Genesis said, the cows weren't planned from the beginning.
Yeah, nah, you're right. I was getting Farnham and Wirt confused.
The story of Wirt is a frightening and tragic one. He was taken from the arms of his mother and dragged into the labyrinth by the small, foul demons that wield wicked spears. There were many other children taken that day, including the son of King Leoric. The Knights of the palace went below, but never returned. The Blacksmith found the boy, but only after the foul beasts had begun to torture him for their sadistic pleasures.
Yeah, he's talking about the Fallen Ones. They are the ones that are on the surface of the Labyrinth, so they can easily go into town to terrorise them. And it is also said that Wirt was taken by the "Butcher's little friends", and since the Butcher is on level 2, his only friends can be Fallen, Skeletons, Zombies or Scavengers, I'm pretty sure. Fallen are the only ones with spears.
The butcher is on Level 2. And so is the Poison Water supply (if you don't have the Skeleton king on level 3). You probably missed the butcher, you do not always get that quest.
Yes, the Butcher is the prime suspect for hacking off Wirt's leg. The Butcher also hacked up Farnham's friends.
Dark Riders are porbably bandits. COuld of been a subplot that was left out, seems like it might have been a cool one.
There is something that has always bugged me with Odgen's opening line. "Thank goodness you have returned" Return!! As in my character has been to, or in Tristram before? Was this suppose to be part of some larger sub plot? something to make the character more 3 dimensional? (The Barb in D2 is... err was friends with Malah's son) or is it just a cool sounding typo. Kinda like Tyrael saying godspeed, when there is no "God" in Diablo.
If your character has been to Tristram before why don't they other NPCs mention this? Or is Ogden referring to the fact you are a tavern patron, but even then Gillian (as the barmaid of said tavern) would recognise you, and Farnham could quite possiblity have been your drinking partner at some point so he would know you, assuming he wasn't too drunk to remember.
Always struck me as odd he says returned, generally in a game you are new to an area.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
Okay Atrumentis... I have a question... I'm not the best with the lore but there seems to be a discrepancy.
Diablo was able to corrupt Archbishop Lazarus to shatter his soul stone to "free him." It seems to me when the soulstones are destroyed (I'm assuming that's what shattered is referring to) that the prime evils get banished to the black abyss until brought back by them self or an outside force. So he was able to corrupt Lazarus enough to shatter his soulstone, drive King Leoric mad, and take control of the body of Prince Albrecht all during his "disembodiment."
Seems to me that, based on this, the soulstones are nothing more than a prison and they are useless because the prime evils could do as they please anyway.
Maybe you could explain this, and maybe a little about the soulstones since I must not have a good understanding.
Sorry if this has been mentioned btw...
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Quote from "uziell" »
In My Restless Dreams, I See That T.. Face? O God Please Heard My Pray, And Let Diablo Step Upon The Earth, Once Again!
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slow-time + skills runes + teleport = LHC.
Quote from "mordred" »
They should name the new class "The experminator Chack Noris" to make it more impressive...
Hmm, the soulstones are a tough one. I cannot predict the future - nor is that the purpose of this thread - but I can provide the already-established facts.
Lazarus shattered the soulstone in order to free Diablo. I'm assuming Diablo was just in some smokey or invisible form when he was released, because he was weak and needed to find a body:
Not long after Leoric took possession of Khanduras, a power long asleep awakened within the dark recesses beneath the Monastery. Sensing that freedom was within his grasp, Diablo entered the nightmares of the Arch-Bishop and lured him into the dark, subterranean labyrinth. In his terror, Lazarus raced throughout the abandoned hallways until he at last came to the chamber of the burning Soulstone. No longer in command of his body or spirit, he raised the stone above his head and uttered words long forgotten in the realm of mortals. His will destroyed, Lazarus shattered the Soulstone upon the ground. Diablo once again came into the world of Man. Although he was released from his imprisonment within the Soulstone, the Lord of Terror was still greatly weakened from his long sleep and required an anchor to the world. Once he had found a mortal form to wear, he could begin to reclaim his vastly depleted power. The great demon weighed the souls residing in the town above, and chose to take the strongest of them - that of King Leoric.
It is indeed a type of prison:
The Soulstones affect only beings that are non-corporeal and thus have no power over living, breathing creatures. When invoked, the Soulstones bring into being a strong "spiritual" vacuum. Any non-physical entities caught within this vacuum are drawn into the burning recesses of the Soulstone and are forever trapped within. These spirits are released only when the Soulstone is deactivated or destroyed.
Three Brothers found that they were immune to the effects of the Stones while occupying human souls.
When a Soulstone is shattered, it is not enough to contain a Prime Evil, and so needs a human body to help contain it (though we know that never works, as both the Warrior and Tal-Rasha lost the spiritual battle.
The capture of their brother Baal, however, became complicated when the Soulstone that was to be his eternal prison was shattered and fragmented. We found that while the shards still held the power to lure the demon to them, they could not properly contain it.
Apparently, shattering a soulstone can easily be done (as with Lazarus and in the battle with Baal and the Horadrim). But shattering it doesn't destroy it, it just splits it. To actually destroy a Soulstone, one needs to use the Hellforge.
Cain: The time has come for you to destroy Mephisto's Soulstone! Take the Stone to the Hellforge. Place it upon the forge and strike it soundly with the Hammer. Only by doing this can you prevent Mephisto from manifesting in this world ever again.
So, shattering makes it harder to contain the Prime Evils, but destroying it (once the Prime Evil's essence has been capture) sends them back to the Black Abyss that spawned them.\
And yes, the Soulstones are useless. Tyrael was tricked into using them against the Three. They actually ended up making the Three stronger, lol. Well, right up until the Soulstones were actually destroyed and sent them back to the black abyss. In the end, we seem to have won, but we don't know that for sure.
Izual: Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me! You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world. The plan we set in motion so long ago cannot be stopped by any mortal agency. Hell, itself, is poised to spill forth into your world like a tidal wave of blood and nightmares. You and all your kind... are doomed.
Tyrael: Thank you, hero, for putting Izual's tortured spirit to rest. May the Light protect you and the powers of Heaven shine upon your path. But, if what you tell me is true, then I fear that we have been played for fools all along. Izual helped Diablo and his Brothers trick me into using the Soulstones against them... Now the Stones' powers are corrupted. With the combined powers of the Soulstones under their control, the Prime Evils will be able to turn the mortal world into a permanent outpost of Hell!
A soulstone can be shattered almost anywhere it seems, shattering is just braking peices off and releasing the essence contained within.
Destroying a soulstone, seems to mirror the one ring in LOTR. Only upon the mighty Hellforge can it be destroyed.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
Maybe it's not the Hell Forge that matters in destroying the soulstone, but only the fact that you were in Hell, so that you don't release the spirit contain within the mortal world.
Seeing as the Prime Evils has planned their Dark Exile for along, it seems to me that they intented to use the soulstones to gain the powers of their target and perhaps in time even the power of the Nephalem. I'm pretty sure that the destruction of the Worldstone has been planned from the beginning by them.
Also, wasn't Lazarus the one possessing Mephisto's Soulstone, I always thought it was the reason why he became mad in the first place.
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All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
I believe it was Cain who said that Tal Rasha's chamber was hidden from mortals eyes. It could have been just an illusion, like the orifice room must have been a fake room just like that spell in Kingdom of Shadows where Zayl arrives in some chamber where's there's a ritual happening but he finds it empty (gee it's been ages since I read that book). The hole could have always been there, but you couldn't see it or even get through it.
Diablo didn't need to break the spell because he's a prime evil, so it probably didn't affect him at all.
Lilith is Mephisto's daughter so I guess she should be pretty high in the Demons hierarchy, but right now she's imprisonned in Inarius's void dimension so she's kind of forgotten by all.
Second, Diablo 3 will probably (as the title let it suppose) be centered on Diablo.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to revisit Bramwell and kick the ass of Kabraxis, but I think we're going to do a lot of other stuff in D3 before it comes to that. I think that I'll expect Astrogha to be in D3 more than Kabraxis, just because we've seen him more often in the novels.
If you're not happy this, feel free to make a mod once D3 is released.
If the definition of 'Maiden' is 'virgin', does that mean Andariel, the Maiden of Anguish, is a virgin? lol. Or is she a 'virgin of anguish', that she has never before experienced anguish but inflicts it upon others? I know, there's no real answer lol. Its just a cool-sounding title.
Btw, I was planning on answering the 'Who is Trag'Oul?' question properly, but I guess its not necessary to go all the way with a huge list of quotes lol. Unless someone still wants me to.
There is a Paladin like Order in DnD where in the warriors are called Maidens of the Light (or hammer, or some such stereotypically holy word), while most are virgins I believe, not all are fair young maidens, some are old codgers and extremely senile. Hardly the vestal virgin image one typically associates with the word Maiden.
But I think it was really just chosen because it sounds cool, because I Andariel is also described as a Matron by Blood Raven (note my sig). And I don't really think Andariel is the head of a group of nurses lol. Although, you could kind of consider Rogues to be nurses in that they are all female.
Probably wrong, other people are more familiar with Diablo lore than me and im really drawing a blank right now. Perhaps I should re-read some stuff
But I can't find the quote that references to Wirt's story being foretold in legend. Could you try and find it?
Blizzard didnt plan to have a cow level in Diablo 2 so, they didnt originally plan to have Wirts leg there either. These things were only added after the Diablo 1 rumors started about the Cow Level and Blizzard went along with it
So, the legends that Cain mentioned must be refering to Wirts "wanting to run away from Tristram" and not his leg or the cow level in the next game.
As for the Dark Riders, it must just be corrupted people or the corrupted Knights of Khanduras messing with the townsfolk before descending down to Hell
Edit- or... How did he lose his leg exactly? Maybe hes just lucky to be alive because hes lucky to be alive....
Where does it say that Wirt lost his leg to a Fallen?
Makes sense. lol. So Cain knew all along about the cow portal then? Heh.
I really have no idea. A lot of these subplots aren't fully explained. Like where Adria came from.
Edit: Wirt lost his leg to the Butcher. He was taken down there, and Griswold saved him.
Edit 2: Actually, it wasn't the Butcher, see my post below.
And we don't know whether Cain was telling those stories to Wirt before or after he lost his leg. If it was after, I don't know what else there could be to tell, other than the cows. But as Genesis said, the cows weren't planned from the beginning.
Yes, the Butcher is the prime suspect for hacking off Wirt's leg. The Butcher also hacked up Farnham's friends.
Dark Riders are porbably bandits. COuld of been a subplot that was left out, seems like it might have been a cool one.
There is something that has always bugged me with Odgen's opening line. "Thank goodness you have returned" Return!! As in my character has been to, or in Tristram before? Was this suppose to be part of some larger sub plot? something to make the character more 3 dimensional? (The Barb in D2 is... err was friends with Malah's son) or is it just a cool sounding typo. Kinda like Tyrael saying godspeed, when there is no "God" in Diablo.
If your character has been to Tristram before why don't they other NPCs mention this? Or is Ogden referring to the fact you are a tavern patron, but even then Gillian (as the barmaid of said tavern) would recognise you, and Farnham could quite possiblity have been your drinking partner at some point so he would know you, assuming he wasn't too drunk to remember.
Always struck me as odd he says returned, generally in a game you are new to an area.
Diablo was able to corrupt Archbishop Lazarus to shatter his soul stone to "free him." It seems to me when the soulstones are destroyed (I'm assuming that's what shattered is referring to) that the prime evils get banished to the black abyss until brought back by them self or an outside force. So he was able to corrupt Lazarus enough to shatter his soulstone, drive King Leoric mad, and take control of the body of Prince Albrecht all during his "disembodiment."
Seems to me that, based on this, the soulstones are nothing more than a prison and they are useless because the prime evils could do as they please anyway.
Maybe you could explain this, and maybe a little about the soulstones since I must not have a good understanding.
Sorry if this has been mentioned btw...
Lord, beer me strength.
Lazarus shattered the soulstone in order to free Diablo. I'm assuming Diablo was just in some smokey or invisible form when he was released, because he was weak and needed to find a body:
It is indeed a type of prison:
When a Soulstone is shattered, it is not enough to contain a Prime Evil, and so needs a human body to help contain it (though we know that never works, as both the Warrior and Tal-Rasha lost the spiritual battle.
Apparently, shattering a soulstone can easily be done (as with Lazarus and in the battle with Baal and the Horadrim). But shattering it doesn't destroy it, it just splits it. To actually destroy a Soulstone, one needs to use the Hellforge.
So, shattering makes it harder to contain the Prime Evils, but destroying it (once the Prime Evil's essence has been capture) sends them back to the Black Abyss that spawned them.\
And yes, the Soulstones are useless. Tyrael was tricked into using them against the Three. They actually ended up making the Three stronger, lol. Well, right up until the Soulstones were actually destroyed and sent them back to the black abyss. In the end, we seem to have won, but we don't know that for sure.
Destroying a soulstone, seems to mirror the one ring in LOTR. Only upon the mighty Hellforge can it be destroyed.
Seeing as the Prime Evils has planned their Dark Exile for along, it seems to me that they intented to use the soulstones to gain the powers of their target and perhaps in time even the power of the Nephalem. I'm pretty sure that the destruction of the Worldstone has been planned from the beginning by them.
Also, wasn't Lazarus the one possessing Mephisto's Soulstone, I always thought it was the reason why he became mad in the first place.