I was reading the other thread (Adria is more powerful then e think). In this thread people adressed one of plot holes in D3's story: the souls of the greater and lesser Evil should be at the Abyss (were dead demon souls return and respawn) so Adria wondering across Sanctuary collecting those souls makes no sense.
Adria gotta be something more then a human witch. Gathering souls of greater demons ? Ploting side by side with Diablo himself against two of the Evils ? Trick Tyreal (who doesn't have powers but a eternity of wisdom and experience) ?
In my opnion D3's start to make alot more sense if Adria is actually Lilith. A short list of "evidence" (more hints then evidence actualy). Heres the short list:
* As mentioned above Adria gotta have some godly deception skills in order to make a fool out of Tyreal. In the Sin War it is very clear Lilith is a insane master plotter and deceptionist.
* Adria seduced Aidan in order to give birth to Diablo's future host, Leah. Again theres an convergence in skills and praxis of Adria and Lilith.
* As mentioned above Adria gotta have SICK dimensional traveling skills or else D3's plot have hole. The souls of demons should be in the Abyss, not on Sanctuary. The Abyss doesn't sound like a accessible place for a human witch. Adria being Lilith would kind explain that: Lilith found an way out of the Void once, hinting she has the power to travel dimensions above the avarage (Inarius didn't expected her to escape). For the third time theres an convergence between Adria and Lilith's powers.
This even explain why she lied about gathering the souls on sanctuary. If she telled "wow i was at the abyss bro" it would be really suspicious.
Why Tyreal believed the seven souls wasn't on the Abyss is another question though.
* Lilith would have all the motivations to make what Adria did in D3. First she tricked you and Tyreal into raising the Prime Evil (following Diablo's plot). With this she would crush the High Heavens by sending the powered Diablo there. Then she tricked Diablo once she knew you (the Nephalem) would stop him. Remember she's the only Demon that truely believe Nephalem are the superior beings. By doing that she crushed Hell.
With both sides broken she freely raise the Nephalem the way she wants.
yea but why woud Lilith work for Diablo? Thats what dismisses the theory for me becaue Lilith was always working to gain more power to herself. She would never bring back the prime evil because thats just a bigger obsticale for her to get around. Unless she knew the Nephalem could defeat him which idk she could have but I mean why would she not keep the black soulstone for herself? She knew what it was? Why woul she betray everyone when really her greatest goal is to amass an army of Nephalem and conquer both heaven and hell.
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Yeah, I'm not seeing Lillith working for Diablo. I mean, it appears she's been working for him since possibly before D1, definatly end of D1, just before D2. At that point, she would have no idea (well, I can't see how she would have an idea) that Baal was going to destroy the worldstone, which, IMO, allowed the sudden jump in power (yes, we were getting back our Nephalem powers, but with the worldstone gone, the powers are coming back much, much faster). Additionally, if she IS Lillith, then would Leah been half demon half human, or all demon?
The souls of demons should be in the Abyss, not on Sanctuary.
Says...who? I don't remember remember that being stated explicitly, and I believe the whole point of using soulstones was because other wise killing them would just allow them to respawn, either in Sanctuary or Hell. Tyreal's idea that destroying the soulstones could have been wrong, or destroying the Worldstone could have reset things enough to allow the souls to stay. transit to Sanctuary. Alternatly, Diablo had always known how to traverse the realms, and he taught/helped Adria do so.
Finally, the Lesser Evils never had soulstones, so it's not a plot hole for them.
Yeah, I'm not seeing Lillith working for Diablo. I mean, it appears she's been working for him since possibly before D1, definatly end of D1, just before D2. At that point, she would have no idea (well, I can't see how she would have an idea) that Baal was going to destroy the worldstone, which, IMO, allowed the sudden jump in power (yes, we were getting back our Nephalem powers, but with the worldstone gone, the powers are coming back much, much faster). Additionally, if she IS Lillith, then would Leah been half demon half human, or all demon?
The souls of demons should be in the Abyss, not on Sanctuary.
Says...who?
Tyrael in D2 at the end of Act 4: "Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible! Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them, and the corrupted Soulstones are no more"
The soulstones is an Izual's trick. The Horadrim idea was to keep the Evils forever caged inside the Soulstones. Izual knew the stones could be corrupted and telled Tyrael only half of the story, so they could use the whole concept of the soulstone as a passage into the Worldstone-protected Sanctuary.
Breaking the stones with the souls inside is not attempt to kill the Evils. It's just a way to banish then from Sanctuary. Thats the whole Horadrim's tragedy: they offered their world as prison to the great evils, interfering in the Great Conflict. What they gained ? Fucking demons in the doorstep. This is also Tyrael's fault, thats why he feels so guilty about Sanctuary's fate.
So the Evils souls should be in the Black Abyss, not floating around Sanctuary. The Evils respawn as soon as they get killed (this is backed up again in that video unlocked video were Auriel asks Imperius to not kill Diablo), Andariel and Duriel should be respawning in the Black Abyss since D2.
Lilith is working along side Diablo because she would know the Evils would loose every battle they dare to take against an Nephalem (like they did). Archangels and the Evils think they are the supreme beings of the Universe but Lilith believes otherwise. Working alongside the Prime Evils was both a way to destroy the Worldstone (one huge step in her ultimate goals) and a way to destroy the Evils (by sending then against her overpowered children).
At that point, she would have no idea (well, I can't see how she would have an idea) that Baal was going to destroy the worldstone
Destroying the Worldstone was the Prime Evil's plan since the Dark Exile. Open the door from the inside. Thats the whole plot of D1 and D2. She just bet Baal would succed.
Additionally, if she IS Lillith, then would Leah been half demon half human, or all demon?
Aindan was not demon, but an possessed human. What the natural law have to say about the child of an demon and an demon possessed person is beyond me =p She definetly have a human looking body but she also have demonic powers. Leah would make sense in both ways (Adria being Lilith or not).
Look even me is not taking this theory too seriously. It was just something i tought and felt like I should share, once this add alot of perpective to D3 plot imho. It does not only close a large plothole, it creats a connection between the Sin War, D1, D2 and D3.
Even though Lillith would not herself work for Diablo, it is not beyond her to use him in her schemes. IMO it is entirely possible that she engineered the whole plot...firing up the Soulstone, getting the Evils trapped inside and then letting Diablo possess Leah.
At one stage while assembling his body ZK says "We all know the end times are upon us, but do you really think Belial and Azmodan are behind all of this." Which is vague enough to hint at either Diablo or Lillith.
Lillith would've known that the only way to find peace is to shut down both Heaven and Hell - if either remains, Sanctuary will be lost. Diablo as the Prime Evil's first task would be to find a way up there, beat the shit out of imperius and then start laying ruin to the Heavens...which he promptly did.
But Lillith (in the Sin War) would force heroes to use their powers to save the situation...think of Uldyssian and the very first encounter with the Inquisitors. She used the situation to force him to use his powers. Again with her fractured ankle - she used the situation to force him to heal her etc. She would've known the hero would see that Diablo must not win the over the high Heavens, and would get involved and cast Diablo down.
To me this plot smells like Lillith from top to bottom...
There is also a quirky qoute that I heard while playing last night. At one stage in act 2 a nobleman approaches Adria and says ;" My, but you are very well preserved for one who has lived as long as you...how old are you exactly?" To which she replies "Go to Hell."
It might be nothing...but it might be something.
Adria marked the prime evils before they were killed in Diablo 2 I thought. It made it so instead of them going into the souls stones (like we assumed, and then destroyed to no avail) they were instead sucked into the black soul stone when we killed them in Diablo 2. Adria would have been an allie to the prime evils all along, so she would have the opportunity to mark them before their death.
Also, your making it sound like a demon (Lillith) would be more powerful than a nephalem. I think that Adria is indeed a nephalem, just like our characters, which would make sence for both her long life and her assumed power, since nephalem are more powerful than both angels and demons.
Adria is not Lilith. Why? Because Blizz writers, and especially was is left of Metzen, are not smart enough to make this up...
You are right, they left it open enough so that WE could finish the story.
I would also like to point out that IF Adria really is Lillith, she has every intent on getting revenge on Heaven AND Hell, two birds with one stone, Collect all the evils and trap them in the black soulstone so they can't revive, they trapped them all within one body (Diablo), and basically unleash him against heaven buying her self some time to go to hell (litterally) and search for Inarius with absolutly nothing or no one to stop her, Diablo said it herself "Face to full legion of hell" Diablo/Azmodan have litterally brought EVERYthing from hell, nothing is there to stop her from finding Inarius.
Except for maybe Malthael...Whom has probably assumed this all along and is following Adria.
Adria marked the prime evils before they were killed in Diablo 2 I thought. It made it so instead of them going into the souls stones (like we assumed, and then destroyed to no avail) they were instead sucked into the black soul stone when we killed them in Diablo 2. Adria would have been an allie to the prime evils all along, so she would have the opportunity to mark them before their death.
Yes Adria did indeed mark the souls - she didn't collect them. This is why the black soulstone consumes the souls when "activated" by Kulle.
So Adria just walked in the corrupted monastery, Tal Rasha's thomb and the durance of hatred and said "hey [insert Andy, Duriel, Meph and Baal] i will mark your souls so when you get killed your souls will be sucked inside this badass unknown soulstone, so in an few decades Diablo can all absorb you and become the Prime Evil"
This is not a plan any demons would agree with, speically the top elite ones. If the demons would remotely accept being absorbed by Diablo they wouldn't need an bunch of heroes to kill then in order ti release their souls. Demons refuse the idea of unity, this is execly why the Prime Evil is such a dangerous being.
Diablo tricked the other demons so he could absorb then, thats pretty much confirmed in the Black Soulstone cinematic. I don't see how Adria would mark fucking Greater and Lesser Evils against their will. Seriously Mephisto would turn her inside what in half blink of an eye. In D2 all the Evils you face acts really loyaly towards Diablo so if they are marked they never new it. And I don't see Mephisto and Baal being marked to the slaughter without even knowing it, that sounds ridicolous.
If this is the direction D3 story is, i'm deeply disapointed.
Also, your making it sound like a demon (Lillith) would be more powerful than a nephalem. I think that Adria is indeed a nephalem, just like our characters, which would make sence for both her long life and her assumed power, since nephalem are more powerful than both angels and demons.
Not more powerful, but more knowledgeable of their powers and how the universe works. I've a hard time believing Adria has flourished to that level of power. In that case why would she needs you (and the other heroes) in the first place ? Why she doesn't just go there and defeat Belial, like we did ?
Even Uldyssian had a fucking hard time using his powers in that level. Adria being able to reach the Black Abyss and capturing Evil's souls will or marking then to be absorbed by Diablo against their will sounds fishy as hell.
Keep in mind, when you kill one of the evils, they just respawn in the abyss. What's to prevent the Prime Evil from respawning? We stopped him in Act 4 (where he "dies" with a sliver of life left... he never actually runs out) and then he falls over the edge and disintegrates. Maybe he's dead, maybe not - either way, won't he just respawn?
Also, Lillith is not more powerful than the Nephelem. She believes they are (could be) the most powerful beings in the universe, and that's why she wants an army of them. She also views herself as the Nephelem's mother (figuratively and literally), and that's where she gets the 'right' to be their leader.
Keep in mind, when you kill one of the evils, they just respawn in the abyss. What's to prevent the Prime Evil from respawning? We stopped him in Act 4 (where he "dies" with a sliver of life left... he never actually runs out) and then he falls over the edge and disintegrates. Maybe he's dead, maybe not - either way, won't he just respawn?
This still contradicts the ending statements in D3 made by Tyrael who apparently now thinks that "The Prime Evil is gone... forever."
Tyrael is the aspect of justice, not wisdom. The guy is brash and impulsive as shown by his shattering of the world stone. he's also easily tricked (referencing him getting trapped in Tal'rasha's tomb by a lesser evil.) At this point in the story I just assume Tyrael is wrong about anything not related to what he wants to eat for lunch because that's the only thing I think he knows with certainty.
TLDR: Tyrael is a bad source for reliable information.
I'm sure adria came in after we killed the evils, I'm sure she marked Diablo's when he saw him before he left tristram then followed the heroes and after they killed everyone she then marked them. Andarial she probably would have let her willingly since andarial started serving diablo, Duriel perhaps was the same, who knows perhaps the five of them made a pact or Adria came in after we killed them.
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If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
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Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Tyrael is the aspect of justice, not wisdom. The guy is brash and impulsive as shown by his shattering of the world stone. he's also easily tricked (referencing him getting trapped in Tal'rasha's tomb by a lesser evil.) At this point in the story I just assume Tyrael is wrong about anything not related to what he wants to eat for lunch because that's the only thing I think he knows with certainty.
TLDR: Tyrael is a bad source for reliable information.
You didn't play the entire game did you.
Edit* Also he is not an "Aspect" That is WoW, Tyrael WAS the Archangel of Justice, by the end of the game he now stands as Wisdom
I'm sure adria came in after we killed the evils, I'm sure she marked Diablo's when he saw him before he left tristram then followed the heroes and after they killed everyone she then marked them. Andarial she probably would have let her willingly since andarial started serving diablo, Duriel perhaps was the same, who knows perhaps the five of them made a pact or Adria came in after we killed them.
This is a good point since Andarial and Duriel are supposedly brother and sister and Lillith was the mother, it would stand with reason that if Adra/Lillith was on Diablo's side, they two would side with her.
Tyrael in D2 at the end of Act 4: "Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible! Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them, and the corrupted Soulstones are no more"
The soulstones is an Izual's trick. The Horadrim idea was to keep the Evils forever caged inside the Soulstones. Izual knew the stones could be corrupted and telled Tyrael only half of the story, so they could use the whole concept of the soulstone as a passage into the Worldstone-protected Sanctuary.
Breaking the stones with the souls inside is not attempt to kill the Evils. It's just a way to banish then from Sanctuary. Thats the whole Horadrim's tragedy: they offered their world as prison to the great evils, interfering in the Great Conflict. What they gained ? Fucking demons in the doorstep. This is also Tyrael's fault, thats why he feels so guilty about Sanctuary's fate.
So the Evils souls should be in the Black Abyss, not floating around Sanctuary. The Evils respawn as soon as they get killed (this is backed up again in that video unlocked video were Auriel asks Imperius to not kill Diablo), Andariel and Duriel should be respawning in the Black Abyss since D2.
It wasn't Izual's trick, unless he turned to the Demon's side before he got captured. If memory serves, he got captured during a raid on the Hellforge, and after he got corrupted he told Diablo about the soulstones. I'm pretty sure he didn't tell Tyreal anything about the soulstones, it went the other way.
Which points to Tyreal was either only half informed, or foolishly arrogant, about the soulstones. If he knew that these stones wouldn't actually allow them to corrupt humans and gain stronger bodies, I doubt he would have used them.
The Horadrim's strategy WAS to trap them in the soulstones. They didn't ever plan on destroying them, which is why they buried the stones. They didn't even know of the stones until Tyreal told them, and he only told them they could capture the demons in them. Tyreal went to his back up plan (a huge gamble, given we have to fight to the Hellforge at the center of Hell itself) when he realized that the soulstones were actually a benefit for the demons.
And where do you get that they respawn in the Black Abyss if they did not have a soulstone destroyed? I was under the impression that they would either be trapped in Sanctuary or return to Hell.
Tyrael is the aspect of justice, not wisdom. The guy is brash and impulsive as shown by his shattering of the world stone. he's also easily tricked (referencing him getting trapped in Tal'rasha's tomb by a lesser evil.) At this point in the story I just assume Tyrael is wrong about anything not related to what he wants to eat for lunch because that's the only thing I think he knows with certainty.
TLDR: Tyrael is a bad source for reliable information.
He didn't get tricked or trapped in Tal'Rash's tomb by Duriel. He got trapped their by The Wanderer and Tal'Rasha doing a tag team.
That said, I agree that we should not assume whatever he says is correct. He thought the Soulstones could protect them, they couldn't. When he found out that the stones could be corrupted, he...waits until the Wanderer almost frees Baal? One would think he would have checked up on those stones, at least once a century or something.
After Lilith was banished to The Void the second time, Inarius removed the means by which she had escaped the first time, so.. Lilith is still trapped in the Void.
After Lilith was banished to The Void the second time, Inarius removed the means by which she had escaped the first time, so.. Lilith is still trapped in the Void.
So the master planner would have you to believe! *duh duuh duuuuhhhhhh*
It wasn't Izual's trick, unless he turned to the Demon's side before he got captured.
From the Diablo manual:
The greatest of these heroes was Izual, lieutenant to the Arch-Angel Tyrael and bearer of the Angelic Runeblade Azurewrath. He once led a fierce attack upon the Hellforge as the creation of the dark demonblade Shadowfang was nearing completion. His quest was to destroy both wielder and weapon - a charge that he was destined never to complete. Izual was overcome by the legions of chaos and, tragically, was lost to the Darkness. His fate stands as testament to the fact that Angels and Demons alike shall fearlessly enter into any domain - so long as their hated enemies dwell within.
From Diablo 2:
Tyrael: Despite his valor and strength, Izual was captured by the Prime Evils and twisted by their pervese power. They forced him to betray his own kind and give up Heaven's most guarded secrets.
He became a corrupt shadow of his former self - a fallen angel trusted neither by Heaven nor Hell.
Izual: Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me! You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world. The plan we set in motion so long ago cannot be stopped by any mortal agency. Hell, itself, is poised to spill forth into your world like a tidal wave of blood and nightmares.
You and all your kind... are doomed.
Tyrael: Thank you, hero, for putting Izual's tortured spirit to rest. May the Light protect you and the powers of Heaven shine upon your path. But, if what you tell me is true, then I fear that we have been played for fools all along. Izual helped Diablo and his Brothers trick me into using the Soulstones against them... Now the Stones' powers are corrupted. With the combined powers of the Soulstones under their control, the Prime Evils will be able to turn the mortal world into a permanent outpost of Hell!
From Diablo 3:
Ithereal: The angel Izual was once Tyrael's lieutenant, but he was captured by the enemy after an ill-advised assault upon the Hellforge. Izual surrendered to demonic corruption and revealed the secrets of the soulstones to the Prime Evils. Tyrael claimed that Izual was slain years ago, but his replacement has never emerged from the Crystal Arch...
Tyrael and Ithereal believe he was captured and tortured/submitted to demonic corruption. It almost seems like Izual did it willingly by what he himself says though. 'Tyrael was a fool to trust me. I told them about the stones and how to corrupt them. I helped plan their Exile. The plan we set in motion so long ago..'
Or it could be taken as, "Tyrael was a fool to entrust me with his secret plan's info. I ended up telling them all about it and helped plan everything after I was corrupted."
Personally, I'm kind of leaning towards Izual was 'fallen' before his 'ill-advised assault on the Hellforge' if only because it reminds me of some movie or game plotline, I'll be darned if I can think of the name, but the double agent pretends to have been killed/captured and was of course just getting back to the side of his prefered allies without raising suspicion.
Especially since for one, he showed up again in D3, on the demon's side of course, and two, his title is 'The Betrayer'
"It seems we've both fallen from grace, Tyrael. Come, embrace your former lieutenant."
"You've failed again, Tyrael.The corruption cannot be stopped!"
Which points to Tyreal was either only half informed, or foolishly arrogant, about the soulstones. If he knew that these stones wouldn't actually allow them to corrupt humans and gain stronger bodies, I doubt he would have used them.
...
That said, I agree that we should not assume whatever he says is correct. He thought the Soulstones could protect them, they couldn't. When he found out that the stones could be corrupted, he...waits until the Wanderer almost frees Baal? One would think he would have checked up on those stones, at least once a century or something.
Don't be so rough on poor old Big T, afterall:
Tyrael: Of the many things I find intriguing about humans, the greatest is their endless thirst for knowledge.
Angels believe that everything there is to know is written in the Scroll of Fate. Therefore, curiosity is not a common angelic trait.
Ironically, my suspicions have been confirmed. Angels do not, in fact, know everything. Seeing the world through mortal eyes has given me much to ponder.
I think the whole smashing the Soulstones thing was just to stop the Evils from being able to get back into Sanctuary, somehow. That is what the Hell's Forge quest suggests anyway.
Deckard Cain:The time has come for you to destroy Mephisto's Soulstone!
Take the Stone to the Hellforge. Place it upon the forge and strike it soundly with the Hammer.
Only by doing this can you prevent Mephisto from manifesting in this world ever again.
Then after you beat the Terror's End quest: Tyrael: Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible!
Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them and the corrupted Soulstones are no more.
You've done well, hero. For now, you should rejoice.
Alternatively, Tyrael might just really like the sounds of them breaking since he is constantly trying to get people to smash the things. =]
More about Soulstones from the Diablo manual:
No longer in command of his body or spirit, he raised the stone above his head and uttered words long forgotten in the realm of mortals. His will destroyed, Lazarus shattered the Soulstone upon the ground. Diablo once again came into the world of Man. Although he was released from his imprisonment within the Soulstone, the Lord of Terror was still greatly weakened from his long sleep and required an anchor to the world. Once he had found a mortal form to wear, he could begin to reclaim his vastly depleted power.
The Nature of the Soulstones
by Jered Cain of the Horadrim
It was long ago that the enigmatic Arch-Angel Tyrael bestowed upon us the secrets of the mysterious Soulstones. Tyrael bequested upon our Order three of these Stones so we could contain the vile essences of the Three Prime Evils who had been let loose upon our world. Although the artifacts were constructed in realms far removed from our own, we found that they were simple to understand.
The Soulstones effect only beings that are non-corporeal and thus have no power over living, breathing creatures. When invoked, the Soulstones bring into being a strong “spiritual” vacuum. Any non-physical entities caught within this vacuum are drawn into the burning recesses of the Soulstone and are forever trapped within. These spirits are released only when the Soulstone is deactivated or destroyed.
The power of the Soulstones proved to be much more difficult to employ when used against the great Prime Evils. Voraciously disposed to possessing hapless mortals, the Three Brothers found that they were immune to the effects of the Stones while occupying human souls. Sadly, we were forced to hunt down and kill the innocent victims of the Prime Evils so that their demonic essences could be subject to the effects of the Soulstones.
Mephisto and Diablo, once found, were easily lured into the Soulstones. The capture of their brother Baal, however, became complicated when the Soulstone that was to be his eternal prison was shattered and fragmented. We found that while the shards still held the power to lure the demon to them, they could not properly contain it. Tal Rasha, a fellow Initiate who has been since immortalized in Horadrim lore, theorized that a mortal of strong will might be able to contain Baal within his own mortal soul. This sacrifice meant that the essence of any mortal so chosen would be forever tortured while locked in eternal conflict with the enthralled demon. To this end, Tal Rasha volunteered to contain the raging Lord of Destruction.
Piercing his breast with a shard of the Soulstone, Tal Rasha took within himself the essence of Baal, the Lord of Destruction. The Initiate’s body was shackled, chained and buried deep within a tomb under the desert. The sacrifice of Tal Rasha has kept Baal imprisoned for many years now, and although the demon was imprisoned without the use a whole Soulstone, we believe that our victory may be a hollow one. Should Tal Rasha ever escape, he would have the formidable powers of Baal added to his own. By ridding the world of this present Evil, we may have created a nightmare worse than that which we first sought to contain...
The bit about Baal at the end there is pretty interesting, does make you wonder how much of the story they had planned out way back in 1996. =] (Although it sounds like they were fearing an evil Tal Rasha enhanced with Baal powers breaking free to wreak havor and not the other way around)
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Adria gotta be something more then a human witch. Gathering souls of greater demons ? Ploting side by side with Diablo himself against two of the Evils ? Trick Tyreal (who doesn't have powers but a eternity of wisdom and experience) ?
In my opnion D3's start to make alot more sense if Adria is actually Lilith. A short list of "evidence" (more hints then evidence actualy). Heres the short list:
* http://www.diablofans.com/topic/52672-adria-more-powerful-than-we-know-spoilers/ post #3 by Pyrrhic hints that Adria is more then humam (do not drink or eat wtf).
* As mentioned above Adria gotta have some godly deception skills in order to make a fool out of Tyreal. In the Sin War it is very clear Lilith is a insane master plotter and deceptionist.
* Adria seduced Aidan in order to give birth to Diablo's future host, Leah. Again theres an convergence in skills and praxis of Adria and Lilith.
* As mentioned above Adria gotta have SICK dimensional traveling skills or else D3's plot have hole. The souls of demons should be in the Abyss, not on Sanctuary. The Abyss doesn't sound like a accessible place for a human witch. Adria being Lilith would kind explain that: Lilith found an way out of the Void once, hinting she has the power to travel dimensions above the avarage (Inarius didn't expected her to escape). For the third time theres an convergence between Adria and Lilith's powers.
This even explain why she lied about gathering the souls on sanctuary. If she telled "wow i was at the abyss bro" it would be really suspicious.
Why Tyreal believed the seven souls wasn't on the Abyss is another question though.
* Lilith would have all the motivations to make what Adria did in D3. First she tricked you and Tyreal into raising the Prime Evil (following Diablo's plot). With this she would crush the High Heavens by sending the powered Diablo there. Then she tricked Diablo once she knew you (the Nephalem) would stop him. Remember she's the only Demon that truely believe Nephalem are the superior beings. By doing that she crushed Hell.
With both sides broken she freely raise the Nephalem the way she wants.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Says...who? I don't remember remember that being stated explicitly, and I believe the whole point of using soulstones was because other wise killing them would just allow them to respawn, either in Sanctuary or Hell. Tyreal's idea that destroying the soulstones could have been wrong, or destroying the Worldstone could have reset things enough to allow the souls to stay. transit to Sanctuary. Alternatly, Diablo had always known how to traverse the realms, and he taught/helped Adria do so.
Finally, the Lesser Evils never had soulstones, so it's not a plot hole for them.
Tyrael in D2 at the end of Act 4: "Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible! Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them, and the corrupted Soulstones are no more"
The soulstones is an Izual's trick. The Horadrim idea was to keep the Evils forever caged inside the Soulstones. Izual knew the stones could be corrupted and telled Tyrael only half of the story, so they could use the whole concept of the soulstone as a passage into the Worldstone-protected Sanctuary.
Breaking the stones with the souls inside is not attempt to kill the Evils. It's just a way to banish then from Sanctuary. Thats the whole Horadrim's tragedy: they offered their world as prison to the great evils, interfering in the Great Conflict. What they gained ? Fucking demons in the doorstep. This is also Tyrael's fault, thats why he feels so guilty about Sanctuary's fate.
So the Evils souls should be in the Black Abyss, not floating around Sanctuary. The Evils respawn as soon as they get killed (this is backed up again in that video unlocked video were Auriel asks Imperius to not kill Diablo), Andariel and Duriel should be respawning in the Black Abyss since D2.
Lilith is working along side Diablo because she would know the Evils would loose every battle they dare to take against an Nephalem (like they did). Archangels and the Evils think they are the supreme beings of the Universe but Lilith believes otherwise. Working alongside the Prime Evils was both a way to destroy the Worldstone (one huge step in her ultimate goals) and a way to destroy the Evils (by sending then against her overpowered children).
Destroying the Worldstone was the Prime Evil's plan since the Dark Exile. Open the door from the inside. Thats the whole plot of D1 and D2. She just bet Baal would succed.
Aindan was not demon, but an possessed human. What the natural law have to say about the child of an demon and an demon possessed person is beyond me =p She definetly have a human looking body but she also have demonic powers. Leah would make sense in both ways (Adria being Lilith or not).
Look even me is not taking this theory too seriously. It was just something i tought and felt like I should share, once this add alot of perpective to D3 plot imho. It does not only close a large plothole, it creats a connection between the Sin War, D1, D2 and D3.
Even though Lillith would not herself work for Diablo, it is not beyond her to use him in her schemes. IMO it is entirely possible that she engineered the whole plot...firing up the Soulstone, getting the Evils trapped inside and then letting Diablo possess Leah.
At one stage while assembling his body ZK says "We all know the end times are upon us, but do you really think Belial and Azmodan are behind all of this." Which is vague enough to hint at either Diablo or Lillith.
Lillith would've known that the only way to find peace is to shut down both Heaven and Hell - if either remains, Sanctuary will be lost. Diablo as the Prime Evil's first task would be to find a way up there, beat the shit out of imperius and then start laying ruin to the Heavens...which he promptly did.
But Lillith (in the Sin War) would force heroes to use their powers to save the situation...think of Uldyssian and the very first encounter with the Inquisitors. She used the situation to force him to use his powers. Again with her fractured ankle - she used the situation to force him to heal her etc. She would've known the hero would see that Diablo must not win the over the high Heavens, and would get involved and cast Diablo down.
To me this plot smells like Lillith from top to bottom...
There is also a quirky qoute that I heard while playing last night. At one stage in act 2 a nobleman approaches Adria and says ;" My, but you are very well preserved for one who has lived as long as you...how old are you exactly?" To which she replies "Go to Hell."
It might be nothing...but it might be something.
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Curse PremiumThats most likely as far as the d3 team have got with regards to a storyline.
Also, your making it sound like a demon (Lillith) would be more powerful than a nephalem. I think that Adria is indeed a nephalem, just like our characters, which would make sence for both her long life and her assumed power, since nephalem are more powerful than both angels and demons.
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ModeratorYou are right, they left it open enough so that WE could finish the story.
I would also like to point out that IF Adria really is Lillith, she has every intent on getting revenge on Heaven AND Hell, two birds with one stone, Collect all the evils and trap them in the black soulstone so they can't revive, they trapped them all within one body (Diablo), and basically unleash him against heaven buying her self some time to go to hell (litterally) and search for Inarius with absolutly nothing or no one to stop her, Diablo said it herself "Face to full legion of hell" Diablo/Azmodan have litterally brought EVERYthing from hell, nothing is there to stop her from finding Inarius.
Except for maybe Malthael...Whom has probably assumed this all along and is following Adria.
https://www.deviantart.com/aerisot
This is not a plan any demons would agree with, speically the top elite ones. If the demons would remotely accept being absorbed by Diablo they wouldn't need an bunch of heroes to kill then in order ti release their souls. Demons refuse the idea of unity, this is execly why the Prime Evil is such a dangerous being.
Diablo tricked the other demons so he could absorb then, thats pretty much confirmed in the Black Soulstone cinematic. I don't see how Adria would mark fucking Greater and Lesser Evils against their will. Seriously Mephisto would turn her inside what in half blink of an eye. In D2 all the Evils you face acts really loyaly towards Diablo so if they are marked they never new it. And I don't see Mephisto and Baal being marked to the slaughter without even knowing it, that sounds ridicolous.
If this is the direction D3 story is, i'm deeply disapointed.
Not more powerful, but more knowledgeable of their powers and how the universe works. I've a hard time believing Adria has flourished to that level of power. In that case why would she needs you (and the other heroes) in the first place ? Why she doesn't just go there and defeat Belial, like we did ?
Even Uldyssian had a fucking hard time using his powers in that level. Adria being able to reach the Black Abyss and capturing Evil's souls will or marking then to be absorbed by Diablo against their will sounds fishy as hell.
Also, Lillith is not more powerful than the Nephelem. She believes they are (could be) the most powerful beings in the universe, and that's why she wants an army of them. She also views herself as the Nephelem's mother (figuratively and literally), and that's where she gets the 'right' to be their leader.
This still contradicts the ending statements in D3 made by Tyrael who apparently now thinks that "The Prime Evil is gone... forever."
TLDR: Tyrael is a bad source for reliable information.
If you want to arrange it
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ModeratorYou didn't play the entire game did you.
Edit* Also he is not an "Aspect" That is WoW, Tyrael WAS the Archangel of Justice, by the end of the game he now stands as Wisdom
This is a good point since Andarial and Duriel are supposedly brother and sister and Lillith was the mother, it would stand with reason that if Adra/Lillith was on Diablo's side, they two would side with her.
https://www.deviantart.com/aerisot
Which points to Tyreal was either only half informed, or foolishly arrogant, about the soulstones. If he knew that these stones wouldn't actually allow them to corrupt humans and gain stronger bodies, I doubt he would have used them.
The Horadrim's strategy WAS to trap them in the soulstones. They didn't ever plan on destroying them, which is why they buried the stones. They didn't even know of the stones until Tyreal told them, and he only told them they could capture the demons in them. Tyreal went to his back up plan (a huge gamble, given we have to fight to the Hellforge at the center of Hell itself) when he realized that the soulstones were actually a benefit for the demons.
And where do you get that they respawn in the Black Abyss if they did not have a soulstone destroyed? I was under the impression that they would either be trapped in Sanctuary or return to Hell.
I would agree this is partially Tyreal's fault.
He didn't get tricked or trapped in Tal'Rash's tomb by Duriel. He got trapped their by The Wanderer and Tal'Rasha doing a tag team.
That said, I agree that we should not assume whatever he says is correct. He thought the Soulstones could protect them, they couldn't. When he found out that the stones could be corrupted, he...waits until the Wanderer almost frees Baal? One would think he would have checked up on those stones, at least once a century or something.
'Aspect' is the new hip thing in Diablo land/the Metzenverse apparently.
http://d3db.com/lore...aspect-of-valor
http://d3db.com/sear...=aspect&x=0&y=0
http://d3db.com/sear...ct&x=0&y=0#lore
From the Diablo manual:
From Diablo 2:
From Diablo 3:
Tyrael and Ithereal believe he was captured and tortured/submitted to demonic corruption. It almost seems like Izual did it willingly by what he himself says though. 'Tyrael was a fool to trust me. I told them about the stones and how to corrupt them. I helped plan their Exile. The plan we set in motion so long ago..'
Or it could be taken as, "Tyrael was a fool to entrust me with his secret plan's info. I ended up telling them all about it and helped plan everything after I was corrupted."
Personally, I'm kind of leaning towards Izual was 'fallen' before his 'ill-advised assault on the Hellforge' if only because it reminds me of some movie or game plotline, I'll be darned if I can think of the name, but the double agent pretends to have been killed/captured and was of course just getting back to the side of his prefered allies without raising suspicion.
"It seems we've both fallen from grace, Tyrael. Come, embrace your former lieutenant."
"You've failed again, Tyrael.The corruption cannot be stopped!"
Don't be so rough on poor old Big T, afterall:
I think the whole smashing the Soulstones thing was just to stop the Evils from being able to get back into Sanctuary, somehow. That is what the Hell's Forge quest suggests anyway.
Alternatively, Tyrael might just really like the sounds of them breaking since he is constantly trying to get people to smash the things. =]
More about Soulstones from the Diablo manual:
The bit about Baal at the end there is pretty interesting, does make you wonder how much of the story they had planned out way back in 1996. =] (Although it sounds like they were fearing an evil Tal Rasha enhanced with Baal powers breaking free to wreak havor and not the other way around)