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    posted a message on Enchantress hinting at expansion at the end?
    Quote from Darcy_Maris

    Then you (yeah, you) destroyed Diablo and thus the Black Soulstone. Or so I assume. There is no reference to you destroying it but none is there any reference to it being still in once piece....

    I wouldn't know where you'd have to go, but I'm pretty sure Blizzard personnel have come forth and explicitly clarified that the BS is still intact. (You can see it falling through the clouds or whatever if you look close) Just put in my CE Behind the Scenes DVD, here is the Storyboard showing the soulstone is definitely still in one piece after Diablo disintegrated.

    "But the Black Soulstone is flawed and cannot contain that many demons for long. We must capture Azmodan within it and shatter it... lest all these Evils be reborn."

    As for Tathamet coming back, remember that this game was codenamed 'Project Hydra.'
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Enchantress hinting at expansion at the end?
    And Btw, wasn't the missing angel the prophet?

    The missing Angiris council member? That would be Malthael, former aspect of Wisdom.

    He's pretty much an enigma. It will be interesting to see what they have planned for him. Personally, I have him coming back as the Aspect of Death and siding with Imperius against the nephalem.

    Tyrael:Long ago, when Inarius and his ilk stole the Worldstone to create Sanctuary, Malthael became consumed with discovering its whereabouts.
    As the archangel of Wisdom, he was tortured by his inability to recover the sacred artifact.
    Where is he now?
    Some say he haunts the silent halls of Pandemonium, forever seeking answers to the unknowable mysteries of life and death.


    The Enchantress' Prophet is likely Inarius, but I don't think there was ever confirmation of such.

    You know, I wrote some posts about where the expansions might be headed. I think I overlooked or dismissed this Enchantress bit, lemme look that up.
    Enchantress Eirena:
    I spoke to Itherael, and he helped me translate the document. It was written by an angel who saw promise in humanity...
    He began to teach a group of young women who had killed the daemons their masters summoned...
    You and your sisters?
    Enchantress Eirena:
    None other. The Prophet I have followed for so many years... He was an angel!
    That is why you knew Tyrael was an angel.
    Enchantress Eirena:
    Yes... but I do not know whether the Prophet was the dying angel I met or not. The writings say that he worked in absolute secrecy. Itherael knew nothing of them.
    Then you must find a new path through the world without him.
    Enchantress Eirena:
    You are right. And I hope that path will still be with you, my friend,

    Okay, maybe not, as they apparently translated it already. I was thinking it may have been given to her so she could fully decipher the End of Days prophecy, but I guess not. (Been a while since I've dabbled in Diablo lore :hehe: )

    I don't really know what role Eirena will play in the future story (I think there's a chance some of her sisters lived, I don't think she checked them all?), but suffice it to say we should be seeing angels and demons fighting on Sanctuary, likely starting with the end cinematic for X1.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Just a tip: Read the Quest logs
    Quote from Doomscream

    I believe this means that originally it was intended to meet Covetus in Act 1.

    You're welcome. :lol: I do believe you are correct in that, I think datamining of the original beta client also showed you got Shen in Act I.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Just a tip: Read the Quest logs
    You can check them out over here. I never remember to look at in game, but I've been through them all on there. You can select which class to see it for, too. Sometimes they have different insight on the situation, the Witch Doctor usually has forewarning from the spirits if I recall.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Leah (Spoilers)
    Here's what the creators of the game said on the matter in the Behind the Scenes DVD (paraphrased a bit):

    "Since she was a little girl, Cain's been roaming around this map looking for pieces of this prophecy of the End Days. All that while, he's teaching Leah to be his apprentice. He would have been constantly talking to her about this prophecy, you know, 'At the End of Days, Angels and Demons will fight on the land of Man' but she has never seen angels or demons so she doesn't believe it, but at the same time she closes her eyes and sees these nightmares and doesn't know if they are real or just her uncle's stories blending together."

    "Leah eventually has to come to terms that everything he had been telling her was real, and she finally realizes that and starts fulfilling this and becomes this new Cain for us. Tyrael, as a mortal now, begins to rely on Leah as that Deckard Cain role. Together, they help pretty much uncover Diablo's maneuverings and what he's been planning under the surface of all of this all along."

    So, yeah, she was basically the Sanctuary equivalent of an internet user screaming PROOF!!!!!!! or not believing that anyone, ever, could be related to or personally know someone 'famous.'

    The worst part is at one point she specifically talks about dragging Uncle away from a horde of skeletons or something years? before the Metyrael falls, but those must have just been stories too.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Adria more powerful than we know? (Spoilers)
    I didn't believe that Diablo became Tathamet in the first place. I don't see this as possible within the lore. Following his death, the seven heads of Tathamet spawned the Great Evils. His headless corpse became the Burning Hells. I don't see how Tathamet could become whole again. If Diablo did transform into Tathamet, wouldn't he have been unstoppable? Wouldn't Sanctuary have burned? I don't think that anyone but Anu himself would be capable of stopping Tathamet. Plus, if Diablo did become Tathamet during the events of Diablo III, I'm sure that they wouldn't have left us guessing. Shit would have been explicitly stated during the narrative of Act IV.

    Yeah that's one thing that they did kind of strangely, hyping Diablo as the Prime Evil and this super mega badass. On other forums, I've seen people saying things like 'lol how can there be an expansion, we killed the prime evil' 'yeah right, we killed the prime evil and now we gonna fight the sin lieutenants or something?'

    They should have done a better job of explaining what exactly the Prime Evil was in context of Diablo's 'prime evil' aka all the evils in his body. (Or Leah's body I guess technically :hehe: ) Especially since they have Tyrael randomly mentioning Tathamet (which like you said, should have roflstomped whatever went against him, unless we are to believe one Nephalem is that powerful) when asked what the Prime Evil refers to. I guess that may be intentional though, as it seems 'prime evil' seems to refer to a few different things, like in that quote from one of the devs the 7 Evils are all 'prime evils,' the 3 brothers are also the 'prime evils,' then of course the 7 Evils in one body is the 'prime evil' and Tathamet was the original Prime Evil.

    I'm not sure if it ended up in the game, but in the beta files Diablo had bunch of curses from the other Evils:
    Diablo_CurseOfAnguish_name Curse Of Anguish
    Diablo_CurseOfDestruction_name Curse Of Destruction
    Diablo_CurseOfHate_name Curse Of Hate
    Diablo_CurseOfPain_name Curse Of Pain

    Adria has undoubtably been lying through her teeth. We shouldn't trust anything we have heard from her. I went from loving Adria as a character in Diablo to despising her as a character in Diablo III. I can't wait to embed a knife in her skull with my DH.

    I don't think that we know what is going on at all. I think that the expansions to Diablo III are going to blow us away. I'm hyped as fuck because I am dying to see how this shit plays out.

    Thank you for the insight. You know, this is exactly why I joined DiabloFans in the first place. I've been craving lore discussion such as this for a long time.

    Lastly, Pyrrhic, you should read Diablo III: The Order by Nate Kenyon.

    I'm definitely looking forward to the expansion, not just for the inevitable new features, but to see where this story is headed. Sucks that it is likely over a year away still, but we'll probably get some info on it sooner than that. (Probably will get the name first via trademarking like with Mists of Pandaria, a 'blue' then saying "Well, usually when we trademark names like Diablo 3: Queen of the Abyss, it's for a Diablo series book or comic." and then the official press release comes out a bit later confirming Queen of the Abyss or whatever is the expansion.)

    At least with DiabloFans, you know the people here should be, well, fans of Diablo, and if they are wandering into the Lore & Storyline forum, they should be interested in the lore and story. As I mentioned earlier about the 'other forums,' other night I looked at a 'what will the expansion be' topic, and they were discussing why Westmarch is more than likely going to be a setting (which it seems is probably 98% chance that it is, unless they pull a fast one and just happened to have 2/3 followers have strong ties to it, with their plotlines both ending with them wanting to go there or you going there with them) and saw some jagoff saying something like "lol u guys probably think the stuff ur foloowers say is releveant too." (Which is hilariously stupid, especially when you watch that Behind the Scenes thing about how they went about telling the story while still letting it be a fast-paced game, and how they wanted the followers to be involved characters.)

    I'll probably pick up the Diablo books at some point, but currently I am reading WW I era or earlier books since I've always found the Great War intriguing and most of them are free for my Kindle.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on D1/D2 References
    Cut-content, or was there actually a Paladin in the game?


    For the Butcher thing, a popular opinion I've seen around the forums is that Butcher should have been swapped with Skeleton King. You have the majority of Act I focused on Leoric's lore, and end up taking him down very early, then just get the Butcher tossed in there.

    Granted, it's probably kind of tricky to reference what was a playable character in a sequel rather than an NPC. Cause it's not like the Necro would've had an official name or anything

    The Sorceress was given a name in the Wizard's short story, Isendra. Also, 'not all of them' are alive.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Adria more powerful than we know? (Spoilers)
    Quote from GeNMaKB

    I am glad that my topic has spawned such excellent discussion. I do not have the time to read through everything right now (fucking dentist) but I will later tonight. My interest is definitely piqued. From what I have read of your post already, Pyrrhic, you deserve a +1. It is nice to know that there are people out there that find the lore of Diablo as interesting as I do.

    Edit: I thought that the souls of Mephisto, Diablo and Baal were trapped in the abyss, following the events of Diablo II: Lord of Destruction. How did Adria mark their souls for capture within the Black Soulstone?

    In the Behind the Scenes DVD, they talk about how they were throwing around ideas for what to do with the story, and they decided that since the Dark Exile, Diablo has been conspiring to kill off the other Evils and unite all their souls into one body, his body.

    Paraphrased a bit for some quotes (bold is my emphasis):

    "Leah represents innocence. Leah represents hope. She is smart, she is resourceful, she has powers of her own. She represents everything that humanity can be."

    "What happens to Leah is sort of the ultimate tragedy and is what is going to happen to everybody if you, the player, doesn't stop it."
    (The people will die, or they will become hosts for demons/corrupted...?)

    "One of the guys had this idea for this kind of cool NPC girl you meet out in the woods with a bow, and there was some suggestion, that she might have been the daughter of the Wanderer from Diablo 2"

    "Her mother was the witch Adria, Adria was a character that occurred in Diablo 1. I think we look at her as this woman who was obsessed with the occult, the arcanum. You know, chasing mysteries and magical powers over the course of her life."

    "She meets with the Dark Wanderer and falls in love with him, and at this point he has been corrupted by Diablo, and she bears his child, and this child is Leah.."

    "It was clear that she was not fit to be a mother, and potentially she had her own dark mission, such that Adria gave up Leah for adoption."

    "Ultimately it was Cain that recognized this baby was very special and kept her safe for the past twenty years."

    "He potentially knows that evil is lurking within her, but because he carries so much guilt from the past games, trying to help people understand that the sky is falling, and not really taking action, he felt he needed to take her on and raise her the right way. And on the other hand, he knew if this girl so much as looked sideways, he knew it would be his job to take her out."

    "Since she was a little girl, Cain's been roaming around this map looking for pieces of this prophecy of the End Days. All that while, he's teaching Leah to be his apprentice. He would have been constantly talking to her about this prophecy, you know, 'At the End of Days, angels and demons will fight on the land of man.' but she has never seen angels or demons so she doesn't believe it, but at the same time she closes her eyes and sees these nightmares and doesn't know if they are real or just her uncle's stories blending together."
    (Yep, called it that the End of Days isn't fully manifested :tyrael: )

    "Leah eventually has to come to terms that everything he had been telling her was real, and she finally realizes that and starts fulfilling this and becomes this new Cain for us. Tyrael, as a mortal now, begins to rely on Leah as that Deckard Cain role. Together, they help pretty much uncover Diablo's maneuverings and what he's been planning under the surface of all of this all along."

    "In trying to solve this riddle of how Diablo comes back again, we kind of had the idea that maybe this time he comes back through his mortal offspring."

    "All the way back to the Great Exile, this has all been Diablo's plan. At a certain point he discovered the idea of the Prime, the idea that all the Evils can become one, and become exponentially more powerful than they had ever been before, and that essentially the last 300 or so years have been his plan to off all the other Evils."

    "For the first time all the essences of these 7 prime evils now, go into Leah and she turns into Diablo and becomes the one prime evil."
    (That's a direct quote, confirming that the Diablo in game was not the Prime Evil aka Tathamet, and just all the 'essences' supercharging Diablo?)

    "It fits with a lot of the stories that were told in the original Diablo and Diablo 2, where we see really precious characters succumb to this kind of corruption and madness and evil, and so this was an opportunity for us to take a character that a player directly interacted with, and hopefully that the player really likes, and see that exact thing happen to her. It was just too evil for us to resist."
    (Must have been fun compiling this story, wish I could have been on that team. :hehe: )

    "To see her father Diablo take her over and turn her into a demon lord is the greatest tragedy we could think."

    "It's tragic what happens to her. But I think the truth of Leah is she's innately heroic. She's a good person. But this evil was rooted at a genetic level. And the turn that her life takes was inevitable to some great degree. When ultimately her turn comes, it feels terrible. We want you to feel like you've been socked in the gut, like you know, "anyone but her." Her spirits still out there somewhere. There's a good girl there that deserves to be saved and brought back from the Abyss. While we don't have any clue yet what subsequent chapters will be, a couple clues (Metzen winks), I'd bet that we would chase that down because it feels right from a story level, and it feels right from a character level."
    (Covetous Shen: Do you think that Leah is lost forever?
    Player: Diablo consumed her. She is gone.
    Covetous Shen: Do you not think Leah's soul is stronger than that? But, oh, but then sometimes I-I forget that you have not seen everything that I have seen.)

    So this is Diablo's plan he has been going after for centuries. The whole 'Adria marked the souls' thing? Well, for one, do we actually trust her at her word? No, not after what she does and the fact we have been 'played like a fiddle' by Diablo the entire time.

    For all we know, Izual could have been the one that rigged up the Black Soulstone. Or Zoltun Kulle, who the other characters pretty much drilled into our skulls was untrustworthy, set it up himself to suck in the big boss Angels and Demons and feigned surprise to try and get us to let him use it on his own. Or the Evils/Diablo themselves at some point, since as far as I know, the events of Diablo 2 were the first time they had ever been 'smashed' and Tyrael was likely the one that thought smashing their stones would send them to the Abyss. (The same soulstones we know were flawed and used as tools by the Evils, thanks to Izual)

    Tyrael's my man, but like he says in the game:
    Angels do not, in fact, know everything.

    I'd have to look for a precise timeline/in-game dialogue, but:

    Tyrael:Three hundred years ago, I selected Kulle and six others to form the Horadrim. He was a great man who was driven mad with his long quest to hunt evil.
    Tell me, why did the Horadrim have to kill Zoltun Kulle?
    He delved into powers not meant for men, trying to fashion an artifact that could fill his empty heart with the souls of angels and demons. The Horadrim had no choice but to slay him. The order... never recovered.

    So potentially, the Black Soulstone may have been around for hundreds of years, around the same amount of time, as stated in the BtS quote above, that Diablo has been planning his big 'middle-finger' to his brothers and sister. Again, would have to look up references, but now is possibly the first time in centuries the Evils were ever vanquished, since the Primes were running amok on Sanctuary and the Lessers were chilling in Hell due to the Eternal Conflict going to a standstill as all eyes focused on Man.

    Although the Great Conflict burned hotter and longer than any of the stars in the sky, neither side could gain dominion over the other for long. Both factions sought some way to turn the tides of the war to their favor. With the ascension of Man and his mortal realm, the Great Conflict ground to a mysterious halt. Both armies paused in a breathless stalemate, waiting to see to whose side Man would eventually turn.

    So, it is possible that the souls were 'marked' centuries ago, and Adria was just making sure all the pieces came together, like getting Deckard Cain out the picture, guiding the Nephalem hero to find ZK's bits, making sure Belial and Azmodan got the kibosh put on them, etc.
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on 1.0.3 - Jay Wilson Effect 3
    For the ME3 posters:


    I thought the ending was alright in kind of an 'ewok celebration' way, but left more questions that answers.

    And to be fair, isn't all that different from D3's in that regard - Angels: "The victory's won! The War is over! The whole wide world is wreathed in clover!" Nephalem: "Uh, haven't you been telling us we needed to smash that soulstone or they'd be reborn? Why the Hell did you just toss him off the side of this tower? That was Leah's body, and her ghost's apparently already angry enough at me! Even if the Big 7 are gone, there's still an entire realm (not to mention Sanctuary) crawling with demons. Don't you think the Evils will just reform like they always have?" Tyrael: "... Time will tell. Ask me again in about a year and a half when the expansion is out."
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Is this a new way of saying "Invulnerable Minions"
    Quote from Aerisot

    I think this was from Early Alpha which then got changed to invul minions.

    I'm going to assume if you are seeing it now in the present, it is probably a bug.

    Looks like Nephalem Valor stacks though, which I think was a 'recent' addition and certainly not from alpha? (Unless it's a PhotoShop and...)

    Pretty funny if real though, gives you something to ponder while lying there dead. "Hmm no Physical, what about Fire? Nope, Lightning, Cold... Oh come on, Poison too? I'm a Witch Doctor for Light's sake! Arcane too, no help from the spirit realm... What about Holy? That should wreck some demons! What, that too? Damn you, Dark Moon Clan Shamans!"
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on people keep saying diablo 3 is going to die, but i dont think so
    D3 may seem like it's 'dying' in part possibly because people were cracking out on it so much in the first weeks/month (OMG! FINALLY! ONLY TOOK 12 YEARS!) and got bored with it. (Pre-release I saw some guy claiming he and his friend took a month off of work to play D3 and were going to 'put at least' 24 hours in on the first day. Kind of curious, if he was serious, how that turned out.)

    A lot of people seemed to have quit/got a refund/stopped playing because it just didn't click for them or they didn't like the direction of the game's design. :S

    I doubt D3 would be as popular for as long as D2 was in it's current state, but with content patches and quite possibly two planned expansions, it might get there. (Just look at how much it has changed in the month+ since launch. Okay, not necessarily always for the better, though :hehe: )The game will probably be hemorrhaging active players until the PvP patch hits, though.

    Quote from mavfin

    People have been predicting the death of WoW for years now, and they still have more players left than all the other MMOs combined. Can't please everyone.

    Considering some 'ancient' games like EverQuest are still going with far less population, I don't think WoW will 'die' anytime soon. (Unless Blizzard themselves pull the plug on it or Titan/some other game is really that good to drop subscribers so low that they take a loss from it. In which case it would probably just go F2P and gain a playerbase again)

    So, let's see how WoW holds up against other MMORPG subscriber counts worldwide. Here are some of the largest MMORPG's by population or "popularity" that have listed their subscription figures:

    Dungeons and Dragons Online - 2 Million
    Knight Online - 4.25 Million
    Flyff - 5 Million
    Guild Wars - 6 Million
    Metin2 - 7 Million
    Gaia Online - 8 Million
    Lineage 1 - 10 Million
    Free Realms - 12 Million
    World of Warcraft - 12 Million
    Wizard 101 - 15 Million
    Silkroad Online - 18 Million
    Lineage 2 - 20 Million
    Second Life - 20 Million
    Dofus - 30 Million
    MU Online - 40 Million
    DarkOrbit - 50 Million
    Perfect World - 50 Million
    Scions of Fate - 50 Million
    Ragnarok Online - 60 Million
    Farmville - 80 Million
    Westward Journey Online II - 86 Million
    Maple Story - 100 Million
    RuneScape - 130 Million
    Dungeon Fighter Online - 200 Million

    All of these numbers are certainly debatable, but these are the official subscribers counts.. apparently.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Cains Death wasn't epic enough.
    Quote from FoxBatD2

    The weakness of the in-game cutscenes doesn't even get at how bad Cain's death was. He died to some freaking RED BUTTERFLIES, practically by accident as Magdha was only torturing him! That's what is wrong. Poison, a blade, a rack, fire, anything would be better than fairy butterfly magic.

    Well, at least it wasn't to Ghom. He could have been sat on, eaten alive, killed and fed to other prisoners then they get eaten, suffocated in Ghom's gas clouds, or killed by his stomach acid slimes or whatever those are supposed to be...
    Posted in: Lore & Storyline
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    posted a message on Staking.
    Well, I'm not seeing it where I thought it was, but some 'blue' at one point commented that they thought being able to spectate and place bets on PvP matches (with gold or real money(?)) was something they thought was a cool idea. Not exactly what the OP is talking about, though. (Ugh, not finding the source for that is going to bug me, I'm pretty sure I saw it a few days ago when looking for something else too.)
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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