but then what is the point to live if everything is evil?
This isn't reflecting upon the real world, Diablo doesn't have to represent the real world. Diablo was created by people, and if they want angels to be evil and demons to be just as evil, they can. Forget about what our world thinks.
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The Diablo world may have been created by Blizzard, but it is MY Sanctuary. I love a world where its about humanity, we are on our own against darkness and the zealot light. Seems fit, seeing as religion is very zealous and evil is usually bad. I gotta fight both, why not in Diablo? Even those who are religious try not to fall into the crazed views of overzealousy, and of course we all strive to not be evil. In this way I see Diablo applying to the real world.
In real life and in this fantasy, Demons and Angels seem to be dark and evil.
Demons outright evil and saddestic, Angels hiding how dark they are just so you feel comfortable with worshipping them and letting them guide your life - a peaceful takeover.
Humans are neutral, they fight for themselves, they are the good ones, trying to fight for their own justice and rights, while Angels and Demons are only obsessed with taking over and ruling everything.
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"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have then given views to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities"
The belief or rather lack of believing in angels in demons is a personal stand point. Therefore it depends on a persons faith as to whether or not demons and angels exist in the real world.
The forces of light are supposed to let man live his own life without interferance and man has the power within him with the faith in God to send demons away. This said a mortal person has the power of light if he/she choses to use it. Thus the setting of such a story would be dark because of the fact that the light isn't present in large quantities and because the more holy a person is the more the forces of darkness can pull at them.
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I never said that it was something I knew. It is no more than an opinion based on things I have learned in my lifetime. There is no religion there really just some standardized beliefs when it comes to the devil, demons, and angels.
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In the case of existence of outside powers which would generally be incomprehendable to the human mind, they would not be displayed as someone humans imagined; if an outside power does exist, it would be different from the imagination of a human.
... I don't care if Angels or Demons don't exist in real life, I still like it as a concept of humanity.
And, yes, Equinox, you're very correct. God as we know him is nothing like what the true "god" is.
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"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have then given views to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities"
This isn't reflecting upon the real world, Diablo doesn't have to represent the real world. Diablo was created by people, and if they want angels to be evil and demons to be just as evil, they can. Forget about what our world thinks.
i know that hahahaha... however its unrealistic i think considering the made up people in the diablo universe are human
Not EVERYTHING is evil... I mean, Why are you living right now?
Another aspect of the darkness of the game is that you are facing evil. You are going deep into the lair of evil to destroy it. The game will probably not be all light and joyous with that in mind. There should be a feeling of terror as you play the game, and for me the first time I played it I kind of had that feeling. I know it was a game, but just like good horror flicks, evil can be around any corner.
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Well wrap your mind around this then. Evil is a matter of perspective. Evil doesn't consider itself evil, evil considers the "good" guys to be evil. It is a matter of perspective and positioning. If you believe that "Heaven" has the best intentions for Sanctuary, then they are good and hell is evil. If however, you feel that aligning yourself with hell has the most benefit to you personally, guess what Demons Good Angels Bad. Evil is all a matter of perspective and morality in any world you refer to.
I personally would think that canabilism counts as a pretty evil thing to do to another person. I am sure cannibals disagree with my view point.
Same in D2. Most characters live their lives unconcerned with such higher goings on and merely wish to survive. Is your hero necessarily good? Not really. Seriously. Diablo went into Hell. He was back in his world, did you really need to go kill him? No, by that point you were driven mad by the greed of more experience and better items.
I do think part of the theme of D3 will involve more NPCs taking a side in the game then in previous games. You will have those characters who for good or bad chose a side. Most won't, as most will be merely seeking to survive. But there will be those tempted by the promise of power from hell and those who believe, in a zealot fashion or not, that Heaven is Sanctuary's best hope.
One more point to add to my discertation. I thought that hell's primary interest in Sanctuary was to use it as a giant power battery so to speak, not to necessarily dominate it?
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Well wrap your mind around this then. Evil is a matter of perspective. Evil doesn't consider itself evil, evil considers the "good" guys to be evil. It is a matter of perspective and positioning. If you believe that "Heaven" has the best intentions for Sanctuary, then they are good and hell is evil. If however, you feel that aligning yourself with hell has the most benefit to you personally, guess what Demons Good Angels Bad. Evil is all a matter of perspective and morality in any world you refer to.
Well, once again, not necessarily in a ficitonal universe. Mephisto most certainly looks at himself as evil, as do all of the Prime Evils I think.
Quote from "Fingolfin" »
Same in D2. Most characters live their lives unconcerned with such higher goings on and merely wish to survive. Is your hero necessarily good? Not really. Seriously. Diablo went into Hell. He was back in his world, did you really need to go kill him? No, by that point you were driven mad by the greed of more experience and better items.
HAHA! Bonus points for that.
Quote from "Fingolfin" »
One more point to add to my discertation. I thought that hell's primary interest in Sanctuary was to use it as a giant power battery so to speak, not to necessarily dominate it?
Well, for the most part that's the same thing. The most effective way to use it would be to dominate it. More efficient that way.
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I still say that the 3 would not see themselves as evil. Good and evil by definition are values or such.
From mephisto's perspective, the council would have been good-they served him- and the hero would have been evil-he banished Mephisto back to hell. It goes more along the lines of which side you are rooting for. I just don't see the diablo universe breaking down into a hard good vs. hard bad.
If that is the case, you are really going to have to explain the posts people have made on here stating that Heaven isn't necessarily good?
The example used is that they were willing to destroy sanctuary to keep hell from using it. Well, that is good from their perspective, kinda evil for the demons, and very evil for the populace of sanctuary. But from the Angels perspective if you are going to mandate they are good, I guess that would be chaotic good, but everyone says heaven is all about order, so how would a chaotic reference fit?
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
If that is the case, you are really going to have to explain the posts people have made on here stating that Heaven isn't necessarily good?
The example used is that they were willing to destroy sanctuary to keep hell from using it. Well, that is good from their perspective, kinda evil for the demons, and very evil for the populace of sanctuary. But from the Angels perspective if you are going to mandate they are good, I guess that would be chaotic good, but everyone says heaven is all about order, so how would a chaotic reference fit?
Well, I'm one of those people, so I'll guess I'll try to explain my views on it.
By my book, Heaven is Order primarily and Hell Chaos. Neither of them are good from a human perspective. But neither are they good from their own perspective either. Good and evil is a way for humans to exist, rationalize and understand their world. Angels and demons don't seem to follow us in our own basic drives and instints. They live, exist, to destroy each other.
So yes, although they can see causes and effects as good in the meaning of beneficial, I do not think they see it as good from a virtuousor morally correct perspective. That's something only humans do.
However, considering The Angiris Council, I'm not so sure as of late. That their reaction would only be towards furthering their own plans at the end of the Veiled Prophet seems unlikely, if we consider Tyrael and that blue angel whatever her name was.
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Hmm... well the concepts of good and evil are not necessarily constructs of morality. Given that I feel that Angels and at least higher demons are quite capable of complex reasoning, the concept of good and evil would fit with them on even the most basic of levels.
If there is another force you are at war with and beant on the destruction of them and they on the destruction of you, then by nature you are the good guys and they are the bad guys by your reasoning, meaning a form of good and evil based on perspectives.
Unless however, you are saying heaven and hell are forces of nature, but that would not jell with what I understand of the angels, specifically Tyrael. A force of nature wouldn't act against its rules to better an unknown quantity.
Demons themselves don't fit this description either based off the fact that they are far too manipulative, calculating, and even political in their motives and thoughts.
I think that while they may view things differently then humans, they still have the inate concept that the side they are fighting for is good and the other side is evil.
Also, while I have not yet started reading the books, Angels themselves seem to done a great deal that did not have to do with destroying demons. I believe one founded a religion, Tyrael has aided humanity on many occassions, the one who created sanctuary initially seemed to consider himself above the conflict, and then the fact that to appease Mephisto, the angels turned that angel over to him as I understand it. These are all actions that have very little to do with the actual existing to destroy each other.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Here's an interesting analogy that justifies Demon's actions.
Humans have had the need to expand form earth, and are attempting to create civilization on other planets, i.e Mars.
Demons, are trying to expand into other realms, but are prevented by the High Heavens, so naturally, they wage war.
If humans ever came in contact with an equally powerful race, that prevented our expansion, we would definatley do the same.
Besides, you can say that demons have evil ways of doing things, and have evil visages... But who is to ultimately be the judge of that? Demons adapt to their situations to survive right?
I think I'm going too deep with this, but meh, it's an idea to consider.
And yea, to sum everything else up, Balance is the ultimate goal for human's and Trag'Oul. It just so happens that demons tend to be more successful I guess.
The discourse represented by Diablo is that Sanctuary must be preserved from both absolute chaos and absolute order. The audience is positioned to believe that neither one of those forces in absoluteness is good for Sanctuary because chaos is destructive and order is stagnant (not meaning it would be boring, but meaning that nothing would happen - the world would stand still). In all of the books Priests of Rathma are present, revealing their view on The Balance and how it is the most important, in which the audience sympathises. 'Good vs evil' is an endless debate, much like the Great Conflict. In the end it is always a personal choice. The core of the Diablo series represent the world of Sanctuary and what is best for itself, without particularly siding with order or chaos. It is fictional but causes us to reflect on our own world and the decisions we make. It is certainly something to take into consideration because such a discourse is heavily marginalised in our culture.
Num3n, you're religious, aren't you? Careful, because your opinion is somewhat biased. Given the representations presented before you on how if order was to finally win the world would become stagnant (insert Sin War quote here), you still side with order. You have already made your choice of side, and so you will continue to make that same choice with everything. Where as someone who has not made a choice (or has simply made a neutral choice) would view each side as what it is, given the discourse presented to them.
Careful with everyone's choice of words too. 'Order' and 'chaos' are most appropriate, for they only have one meaning. While 'good' and 'heaven' can also mean pleasant and desirable, and 'evil' can mean bad and undesirable. The words themselves are biased toward choosing order. Therefore using 'order' and 'chaos' equivalently represents the two opposing sides, and allows personal preference to make the decision alone.
Num3n, you can still play the game as a holy Zakarum warrior, fighting for good so the world can be safe, because that is exactly what those Paladins are doing. They have the exact same values as you, and just because you are joining a world with others that don't quite have the same values, doesn't mean you can't play the game. After all, Paladins are part of that world too, and they have made their choice.
Edit: Also, back to the original question, the answer comes from the nature of Heaven and Hell. Diablo and his brothers found that forcing humans into submission using fear and terror worked much more efficiently at turning them to their side, while the angels value subtlety and slight influence in turning Sanctuary to their side. That is why the demons are always present, while the angels work in the background and are rarely seen. Any bit of 'good fortune' in the books may or may not be the work of an angel. If you noticed in the Moon of the Spider, an angel was helping Zayl and the girl the whole time, disguising himself as a mysterious stranger, starting conversation with them that invoked certain thoughts into their head that lead them on the right track. Angels are very subtle, and thats also what demons hate so much about them. Its their nature.
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WoW fans are nerds. Diablo fans are freaks.
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Demons outright evil and saddestic, Angels hiding how dark they are just so you feel comfortable with worshipping them and letting them guide your life - a peaceful takeover.
Humans are neutral, they fight for themselves, they are the good ones, trying to fight for their own justice and rights, while Angels and Demons are only obsessed with taking over and ruling everything.
The forces of light are supposed to let man live his own life without interferance and man has the power within him with the faith in God to send demons away. This said a mortal person has the power of light if he/she choses to use it. Thus the setting of such a story would be dark because of the fact that the light isn't present in large quantities and because the more holy a person is the more the forces of darkness can pull at them.
Wait, nevermind. Don't answer, I'm sick of religious discussions.
EDIT:
Oh okay I get it now. Thanks for the clarification I was a little confused as to what you were getting at lol.
And, yes, Equinox, you're very correct. God as we know him is nothing like what the true "god" is.
i know that hahahaha... however its unrealistic i think considering the made up people in the diablo universe are human
we are talking about Diablo not real life
I personally would think that canabilism counts as a pretty evil thing to do to another person. I am sure cannibals disagree with my view point.
Same in D2. Most characters live their lives unconcerned with such higher goings on and merely wish to survive. Is your hero necessarily good? Not really. Seriously. Diablo went into Hell. He was back in his world, did you really need to go kill him? No, by that point you were driven mad by the greed of more experience and better items.
I do think part of the theme of D3 will involve more NPCs taking a side in the game then in previous games. You will have those characters who for good or bad chose a side. Most won't, as most will be merely seeking to survive. But there will be those tempted by the promise of power from hell and those who believe, in a zealot fashion or not, that Heaven is Sanctuary's best hope.
One more point to add to my discertation. I thought that hell's primary interest in Sanctuary was to use it as a giant power battery so to speak, not to necessarily dominate it?
HAHA! Bonus points for that.
Well, for the most part that's the same thing. The most effective way to use it would be to dominate it. More efficient that way.
From mephisto's perspective, the council would have been good-they served him- and the hero would have been evil-he banished Mephisto back to hell. It goes more along the lines of which side you are rooting for. I just don't see the diablo universe breaking down into a hard good vs. hard bad.
If that is the case, you are really going to have to explain the posts people have made on here stating that Heaven isn't necessarily good?
The example used is that they were willing to destroy sanctuary to keep hell from using it. Well, that is good from their perspective, kinda evil for the demons, and very evil for the populace of sanctuary. But from the Angels perspective if you are going to mandate they are good, I guess that would be chaotic good, but everyone says heaven is all about order, so how would a chaotic reference fit?
By my book, Heaven is Order primarily and Hell Chaos. Neither of them are good from a human perspective. But neither are they good from their own perspective either. Good and evil is a way for humans to exist, rationalize and understand their world. Angels and demons don't seem to follow us in our own basic drives and instints. They live, exist, to destroy each other.
So yes, although they can see causes and effects as good in the meaning of beneficial, I do not think they see it as good from a virtuousor morally correct perspective. That's something only humans do.
However, considering The Angiris Council, I'm not so sure as of late. That their reaction would only be towards furthering their own plans at the end of the Veiled Prophet seems unlikely, if we consider Tyrael and that blue angel whatever her name was.
If there is another force you are at war with and beant on the destruction of them and they on the destruction of you, then by nature you are the good guys and they are the bad guys by your reasoning, meaning a form of good and evil based on perspectives.
Unless however, you are saying heaven and hell are forces of nature, but that would not jell with what I understand of the angels, specifically Tyrael. A force of nature wouldn't act against its rules to better an unknown quantity.
Demons themselves don't fit this description either based off the fact that they are far too manipulative, calculating, and even political in their motives and thoughts.
I think that while they may view things differently then humans, they still have the inate concept that the side they are fighting for is good and the other side is evil.
Also, while I have not yet started reading the books, Angels themselves seem to done a great deal that did not have to do with destroying demons. I believe one founded a religion, Tyrael has aided humanity on many occassions, the one who created sanctuary initially seemed to consider himself above the conflict, and then the fact that to appease Mephisto, the angels turned that angel over to him as I understand it. These are all actions that have very little to do with the actual existing to destroy each other.
Humans have had the need to expand form earth, and are attempting to create civilization on other planets, i.e Mars.
Demons, are trying to expand into other realms, but are prevented by the High Heavens, so naturally, they wage war.
If humans ever came in contact with an equally powerful race, that prevented our expansion, we would definatley do the same.
Besides, you can say that demons have evil ways of doing things, and have evil visages... But who is to ultimately be the judge of that? Demons adapt to their situations to survive right?
I think I'm going too deep with this, but meh, it's an idea to consider.
And yea, to sum everything else up, Balance is the ultimate goal for human's and Trag'Oul. It just so happens that demons tend to be more successful I guess.
Num3n, you're religious, aren't you? Careful, because your opinion is somewhat biased. Given the representations presented before you on how if order was to finally win the world would become stagnant (insert Sin War quote here), you still side with order. You have already made your choice of side, and so you will continue to make that same choice with everything. Where as someone who has not made a choice (or has simply made a neutral choice) would view each side as what it is, given the discourse presented to them.
Careful with everyone's choice of words too. 'Order' and 'chaos' are most appropriate, for they only have one meaning. While 'good' and 'heaven' can also mean pleasant and desirable, and 'evil' can mean bad and undesirable. The words themselves are biased toward choosing order. Therefore using 'order' and 'chaos' equivalently represents the two opposing sides, and allows personal preference to make the decision alone.
Num3n, you can still play the game as a holy Zakarum warrior, fighting for good so the world can be safe, because that is exactly what those Paladins are doing. They have the exact same values as you, and just because you are joining a world with others that don't quite have the same values, doesn't mean you can't play the game. After all, Paladins are part of that world too, and they have made their choice.
Edit: Also, back to the original question, the answer comes from the nature of Heaven and Hell. Diablo and his brothers found that forcing humans into submission using fear and terror worked much more efficiently at turning them to their side, while the angels value subtlety and slight influence in turning Sanctuary to their side. That is why the demons are always present, while the angels work in the background and are rarely seen. Any bit of 'good fortune' in the books may or may not be the work of an angel. If you noticed in the Moon of the Spider, an angel was helping Zayl and the girl the whole time, disguising himself as a mysterious stranger, starting conversation with them that invoked certain thoughts into their head that lead them on the right track. Angels are very subtle, and thats also what demons hate so much about them. Its their nature.