But I would think the very basis of the game world would lend itself to a natural association of Heaven with Good and Hell with evil despite any preconceived notions. I personally would much rather be subtly coerced into a decision rather then threatened with being torn apart if I don't reach that decision.
I mean seriously, if you were watching Tyrael and Diablo fight to the death and you would be given to whomever won the fight, I don't think anyone in here would be rooting to be Diablo's next chew toy.
As for the actual topic of the thread, I think atruitis answered it well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Assuming that the idea of good and evil is a natural continueation of more complex minds.
But yeah, I'd have to agree with you somewhat. Angels and demons are very alike humans in that they understand good and evil and do what tehy must to win, and to survive. Inarius didn't want to fight hell, so he left etc.
Ok, I'll say this. I can agree that both Heaven and Hell view themselves as good, but, the demons are fully aware of the fact that they are seen as more evil by humans than angels, and they are also aware of why that is
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Ok, I'll say this. I can agree that both Heaven and Hell view themselves as good, but, the demons are fully aware of the fact that they are seen as more evil by humans than angels, and they are also aware of why that is
That's true too. They even call themsevles 'Lord of Destruction' and 'Maiden of Anguish' lol. But then again, there is an Archangel of Death too, part of the Angiris Council, dressed in black. That name sounds bad, but because its an angelic thing, somehow its justified. But is it really justified? Are you not being manipulated to accept Death as part of life but fear Destruction? You know, they say that "destruction is a form of creation".
But Fingolfin, I'm not sure if I would want to stick around archangels too much. They have a tendancy to willingly kill you if it proves to be 'for the greater good' lol, unless you prove your faith entirely. Of course, demons will kill you too, if you're not faithful to them either. I suppose I would prefer to be manipulated than torn apart, because its less painful, but its like you're not even making any choices for yourself. You're just a puppet, your life taken away anyway. Angels and demons are all very manipulative.
That would be cool. It would resemble what Uldyssian went through. But of course, just like in this thread, religious people would get upset at fighting against good.
Well it's not technically "good". It's extreme order that your fightiing.
Then again Christians whined about a chocolate Jesus...so they can whine about anything...
And don't fool yourself, it's Christians that will have issues with fighting against good. Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, all others will laugh and find it funny.
That's true too. They even call themsevles 'Lord of Destruction' and 'Maiden of Anguish' lol. But then again, there is an Archangel of Death too, part of the Angiris Council, dressed in black. That name sounds bad, but because its an angelic thing, somehow its justified. But is it really justified? Are you not being manipulated to accept Death as part of life but fear Destruction? You know, they say that "destruction is a form of creation".
Destruction only creates chaos, which fits very well with Hell, seeing as they do want to create something new and chaotic.
Death isn't necessarily that bad though. But perhaps there being an angel of death suggests they have some power over death regarding mortals? I mean, since angels and demons seem to live forever, that would suggest some kind of connection don't you think?
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
I dont think christians can stop diablo 3, I mean blizzard fans could overthrow any religion. besisdes that, they havnt even been able to stop all the hooker mutilation in video games.
ok please check the relegious beliefs/bashing at the door.
Now, Angels may be just as likely to do bad things to people, but I think by the nature of the conflict and the roles that have played on the large scale, the people of sanctuary are for the most part going to consider the angels good. And by the way, in D2 you are a champion of heaven, Tyrael himself refers to you as Champion of Light or some such I believe.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Destruction only creates chaos, which fits very well with Hell, seeing as they do want to create something new and chaotic.
Death isn't necessarily that bad though. But perhaps there being an angel of death suggests they have some power over death regarding mortals? I mean, since angels and demons seem to live forever, that would suggest some kind of connection don't you think?
Lets look at the word "destruction". Destruction is to destroy, correct? Now, to destroy something is not nessecarily chaotic, as we can see with a demolition of a building. Is it not being destroyed? There is no building is there?
Destruction is not always chaos, destruction can, and far too often is, a planned and articulated event.
Quote from "Fingolfin" »
ok please check the relegious beliefs/bashing at the door.
Now, Angels may be just as likely to do bad things to people, but I think by the nature of the conflict and the roles that have played on the large scale, the people of sanctuary are for the most part going to consider the angels good. And by the way, in D2 you are a champion of heaven, Tyrael himself refers to you as Champion of Light or some such I believe.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Tyrael's enemy is Diablo. Your enemy is Diablo. Therefore he view's you as someone on his side. You are not actually a champion of light, nor are you a champion of dark, you are a champion of humanity, of Sanctuary.
Lets look at the word "destruction". Destruction is to destroy, correct? Now, to destroy something is not nessecarily chaotic, as we can see with a demolition of a building. Is it not being destroyed? There is no building is there?
Not exacly. When we destroy a building, we start with a structure that is ordered. When we're done, we get a huge pile of rubble lying on the ground, dust and dirt flying around everywhere, with colors and materials mixed together without no pattern. We then proceed to create order by removing the junk the demolition left behind.
Quote from "LinkX" »
Destruction is not always chaos, destruction can, and far too often is, a planned and articulated event.
I beg to differ. Destruction can, of course, be part of a planned event, and of course the Prime Evils plan ahead. But the actual act of destroying something is always chaotic.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Not exacly. When we destroy a building, we start with a structure that is ordered. When we're done, we get a huge pile of rubble lying on the ground, dust and dirt flying around everywhere, with colors and materials mixed together without no pattern. We then proceed to create order by removing the junk the demolition left behind.
I beg to differ. Destruction can, of course, be part of a planned event, and of course the Prime Evils plan ahead. But the actual act of destroying something is always chaotic.
I agree. There may be a rhyme or order to the chaos, but it is chaos nonetheless. In battle during the medieval times they used flags, horns, lots of ways to get an advantage of that chaos over the enemy, whom would usually be too absorbed in the chaos to know what the hell was going on.
Tyrael's enemy is Diablo. Your enemy is Diablo. Therefore he view's you as someone on his side. You are not actually a champion of light, nor are you a champion of dark, you are a champion of humanity, of Sanctuary.
Good, in this game, is a relative term at best.
Very well said. I agree so much, I contemplated putting it as my sig. But then I thought against it lol. Lets just say that your sentences got a nomination lol.
And the destruction thing... well, I'm not sure. But what PhrozenDragon said about the pile of rubble is a good explanation too. I'd have to agree.
But, the Death thing... just think that it makes perfect sense for there to be a Lord of Death. Man fears it, it can be gruesome, and is the opposite of life and love. It could very easily be an evil thing. But yet its not, its a 'good' thing. I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I'm just pointing out the similarity and how the line between 'good' and 'evil' is oh so thin.
Not exacly. When we destroy a building, we start with a structure that is ordered. When we're done, we get a huge pile of rubble lying on the ground, dust and dirt flying around everywhere, with colors and materials mixed together without no pattern. We then proceed to create order by removing the junk the demolition left behind.
I beg to differ. Destruction can, of course, be part of a planned event, and of course the Prime Evils plan ahead. But the actual act of destroying something is always chaotic.
It does look like massive chaos, doesn't it? Amazing how it looks like shits gone and hit the fan.
Thing is, it's completely and utterlly planned out, down to the ounce of explosives. It may not look like it, but they do know where everything is going.
Well, Death is in heaven, because death is a tool of order, not chaos. Death is part of the natural order of things.
The idea however, that the humans of Sanctuary are any more good then Heaven or hell is not an accurate statement.
Unless something goes horribly wrong in the war, I don't see Sanctuary being under a lot of danger from heaven.
As I understand it, the only reason heaven considered destroying sanctuary was to keep it from aiding Hell. Therefore, if Hell is defeated, HEaven poses no threat to Sanctuary.
Plus, in D2 at least, there is apparently a long history of humans aiding the Heavens. Look at some of the convos in Pandemonium Fortress.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Fingolfin, you've missed the whole point of the The Sin War trilogy. Why do you think it is then that Uldyssian fights against both Heaven and Hell? He fights for Sanctuary so it can be free from the grasp of either side. I've already said what the dangers are of having absolute order on Sanctuary - the whole world would become completely stagnant. Nothing in absolute is a good thing.
If I can find a quote, I'll post it. Unless someone else finds one first.
And noone said that Sanctuary is 'good' compared to Heaven and Hell, we (or atleast I) said that Sanctuary needs to look after itself, think for itself, and fight for itself, and not for some "higher" being. We have the potential to be just as great as them anyway, proven by Uldyssian ul-Diomed.
You’re surprised by how good you feel at having had a hand in healing the boy? Kabraxis asked.
“Yes,” Cholik whispered, knowing no one around him could hear him but that the demon could.
It shouldn’t. To know the Darkness, a being must also know the Light. You lived your life cloistered in Westmarch. The only people you met were those who wanted your position.
Or those whose positions I coveted, Cholik realized.
And the Zakarum Church never allowed you to be so personal in the healing properties they doled out, the demon said.
The Light is afraid to give many people powers like I have given you, Kabraxis said. People who have powers like this get noticed by regular people. In short order, they become heroes or talked-about people. In only a little more time, the tales that are told about them allow them to take on lofty mantles. The stewards of the Light are jealous of that.
“But demons aren’t?” Cholik asked.
Kabraxis laughed, and the grating, thunderous noise echoing inside Cholik’s head was almost painful. Demons aren’t as jealous as the stewards of Light would have you believe. Nor are they as controlling as the stewards of Light. I ask you, who always has the most rules? The most limitations?
Cholik didn’t answer.
Why do you think the stewards of Light offer so many rules? Kabraxis asked. To keep the balance in their favor, of course. But demons, we believe in letting all who support the Darkness have power. Some have more power than others. But they earn it. Just as you have earned that which I’m giving you the day you faced your own fear of dying and
sought out the buried gateway to me.
“I had no choice,” Cholik said.
Humans always have choices. That’s how the stewards of Light seek to confuse you. You have choices, but you can’t choose most of them because the stewards of Light have decreed them as wrong. As an enlightened student of the Light, you’re supposed to know that those choices are wrong. So where does that really leave you? How many choices do you really have?
lol, it seems like Order is a dictatorship while Chaos is a democracy. (The US is a democracy, a dictatorship is like what Hitler was - a dictator)
Of course, that view is biased, considering its coming from a Demon, but still, its interesting to at least consider. But we know the Angiris Council rule Heaven, which isn't a dictatorship because there are five of them that must agree, not just one man. And they certainly aren't corrupt, they are angels afterall, so its nothing like Hitler, but its just an interesting thought.
(Then again, maybe they are corrupt, because Hitler was religious, attempting to cleanse the world for what he believed to be the best thing for everyone. But no, he was wrong, noone knows what is best for everyone, only for themselves.)
Keep to yourself, fight for yourself, fight for your right, fight for your freedom, fight for Sanctuary.
That is the message given to us. And if Heaven can help save sanctuary, then let them help, an alliance is beneficial, just don't let them take over completley. But I wouldn't worry, you can always count on Demons to rise up.
Well, I am not debating that. I was merely responding to another point earlier in the debate. Sorry about that. However, I don't feel that everyone is going to want to fight for the sake of Sanctuary. There are those who naturally feel they need a higher power/calling to serve. Wether this calling is hell or heaven, it seems to very much be present in the world of Sanctuary. I could make the same argument that Heaven is lawful society and Hell is anarchy. It is a fun debate I guess, I just don't feel that in the world of sanctuary, you will ever have a true force of neutrals. Most who truly become aware of the two forces at play are going to chose a side by choice or coercion.
One other thing, the holocaust had nothing to do with relegion, except that the jews were one of the groups targeted. It was about manipulation and population controll, but that is a whole different topic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
It does look like massive chaos, doesn't it? Amazing how it looks like shits gone and hit the fan.
Thing is, it's completely and utterlly planned out, down to the ounce of explosives. It may not look like it, but they do know where everything is going.
Well, yes, but I disagree with your stand point that chaos is determined by the actions of the observers and the knowledge the observers have in advance.
I don't take into account whether or not we know where everything will end up, that's not my idea of chaos. My idea of chaos is disarray, and those pieces lying on the ground are not ordered in any shape or pattern. They're randomly lying on the ground in piles.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Well, yes, but I disagree with your stand point that chaos is determined by the actions of the observers and the knowledge the observers have in advance.
I don't take into account whether or not we know where everything will end up, that's not my idea of chaos. My idea of chaos is disarray, and those pieces lying on the ground are not ordered in any shape or pattern. They're randomly lying on the ground in piles.
Misscommunication. x.x
The guys know where it is going to land because they use the correct amount of explosives to put things where they want them. If they just shoved explosives in the building it would basically just be a bomb, kinda like 9/11. Trained demolition experts never have such chaos going on when they take a building down, and it can even months of preperation to make sure that it goes where they want it to go.
There was a building in Vegas (Cant remember the name but yea...) that was 3 feet away from other buildings around it on both sides. The demolitions experts planned it so well that it didn't harm the other buildings at all. It really was a tribute to ordered destruction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I mean seriously, if you were watching Tyrael and Diablo fight to the death and you would be given to whomever won the fight, I don't think anyone in here would be rooting to be Diablo's next chew toy.
As for the actual topic of the thread, I think atruitis answered it well.
But yeah, I'd have to agree with you somewhat. Angels and demons are very alike humans in that they understand good and evil and do what tehy must to win, and to survive. Inarius didn't want to fight hell, so he left etc.
Ok, I'll say this. I can agree that both Heaven and Hell view themselves as good, but, the demons are fully aware of the fact that they are seen as more evil by humans than angels, and they are also aware of why that is
That's true too. They even call themsevles 'Lord of Destruction' and 'Maiden of Anguish' lol. But then again, there is an Archangel of Death too, part of the Angiris Council, dressed in black. That name sounds bad, but because its an angelic thing, somehow its justified. But is it really justified? Are you not being manipulated to accept Death as part of life but fear Destruction? You know, they say that "destruction is a form of creation".
But Fingolfin, I'm not sure if I would want to stick around archangels too much. They have a tendancy to willingly kill you if it proves to be 'for the greater good' lol, unless you prove your faith entirely. Of course, demons will kill you too, if you're not faithful to them either. I suppose I would prefer to be manipulated than torn apart, because its less painful, but its like you're not even making any choices for yourself. You're just a puppet, your life taken away anyway. Angels and demons are all very manipulative.
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Then again Christians whined about a chocolate Jesus...so they can whine about anything...
And don't fool yourself, it's Christians that will have issues with fighting against good. Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, all others will laugh and find it funny.
Death isn't necessarily that bad though. But perhaps there being an angel of death suggests they have some power over death regarding mortals? I mean, since angels and demons seem to live forever, that would suggest some kind of connection don't you think?
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Now, Angels may be just as likely to do bad things to people, but I think by the nature of the conflict and the roles that have played on the large scale, the people of sanctuary are for the most part going to consider the angels good. And by the way, in D2 you are a champion of heaven, Tyrael himself refers to you as Champion of Light or some such I believe.
Lets look at the word "destruction". Destruction is to destroy, correct? Now, to destroy something is not nessecarily chaotic, as we can see with a demolition of a building. Is it not being destroyed? There is no building is there?
Destruction is not always chaos, destruction can, and far too often is, a planned and articulated event.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Tyrael's enemy is Diablo. Your enemy is Diablo. Therefore he view's you as someone on his side. You are not actually a champion of light, nor are you a champion of dark, you are a champion of humanity, of Sanctuary.
Good, in this game, is a relative term at best.
I beg to differ. Destruction can, of course, be part of a planned event, and of course the Prime Evils plan ahead. But the actual act of destroying something is always chaotic.
I agree. There may be a rhyme or order to the chaos, but it is chaos nonetheless. In battle during the medieval times they used flags, horns, lots of ways to get an advantage of that chaos over the enemy, whom would usually be too absorbed in the chaos to know what the hell was going on.
Very well said. I agree so much, I contemplated putting it as my sig. But then I thought against it lol. Lets just say that your sentences got a nomination lol.
And the destruction thing... well, I'm not sure. But what PhrozenDragon said about the pile of rubble is a good explanation too. I'd have to agree.
But, the Death thing... just think that it makes perfect sense for there to be a Lord of Death. Man fears it, it can be gruesome, and is the opposite of life and love. It could very easily be an evil thing. But yet its not, its a 'good' thing. I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I'm just pointing out the similarity and how the line between 'good' and 'evil' is oh so thin.
It does look like massive chaos, doesn't it? Amazing how it looks like shits gone and hit the fan.
Thing is, it's completely and utterlly planned out, down to the ounce of explosives. It may not look like it, but they do know where everything is going.
The idea however, that the humans of Sanctuary are any more good then Heaven or hell is not an accurate statement.
Unless something goes horribly wrong in the war, I don't see Sanctuary being under a lot of danger from heaven.
As I understand it, the only reason heaven considered destroying sanctuary was to keep it from aiding Hell. Therefore, if Hell is defeated, HEaven poses no threat to Sanctuary.
Plus, in D2 at least, there is apparently a long history of humans aiding the Heavens. Look at some of the convos in Pandemonium Fortress.
If I can find a quote, I'll post it. Unless someone else finds one first.
And noone said that Sanctuary is 'good' compared to Heaven and Hell, we (or atleast I) said that Sanctuary needs to look after itself, think for itself, and fight for itself, and not for some "higher" being. We have the potential to be just as great as them anyway, proven by Uldyssian ul-Diomed.
______________________________________________________
You’re surprised by how good you feel at having had a hand in healing the boy? Kabraxis asked.
“Yes,” Cholik whispered, knowing no one around him could hear him but that the demon could.
It shouldn’t. To know the Darkness, a being must also know the Light. You lived your life cloistered in Westmarch. The only people you met were those who wanted your position.
Or those whose positions I coveted, Cholik realized.
And the Zakarum Church never allowed you to be so personal in the healing properties they doled out, the demon said.
The Light is afraid to give many people powers like I have given you, Kabraxis said. People who have powers like this get noticed by regular people. In short order, they become heroes or talked-about people. In only a little more time, the tales that are told about them allow them to take on lofty mantles. The stewards of the Light are jealous of that.
“But demons aren’t?” Cholik asked.
Kabraxis laughed, and the grating, thunderous noise echoing inside Cholik’s head was almost painful. Demons aren’t as jealous as the stewards of Light would have you believe. Nor are they as controlling as the stewards of Light. I ask you, who always has the most rules? The most limitations?
Cholik didn’t answer.
Why do you think the stewards of Light offer so many rules? Kabraxis asked. To keep the balance in their favor, of course. But demons, we believe in letting all who support the Darkness have power. Some have more power than others. But they earn it. Just as you have earned that which I’m giving you the day you faced your own fear of dying and
sought out the buried gateway to me.
“I had no choice,” Cholik said.
Humans always have choices. That’s how the stewards of Light seek to confuse you. You have choices, but you can’t choose most of them because the stewards of Light have decreed them as wrong. As an enlightened student of the Light, you’re supposed to know that those choices are wrong. So where does that really leave you? How many choices do you really have?
Cholik silently agreed.
______________________________________________________
lol, it seems like Order is a dictatorship while Chaos is a democracy. (The US is a democracy, a dictatorship is like what Hitler was - a dictator)
Of course, that view is biased, considering its coming from a Demon, but still, its interesting to at least consider. But we know the Angiris Council rule Heaven, which isn't a dictatorship because there are five of them that must agree, not just one man. And they certainly aren't corrupt, they are angels afterall, so its nothing like Hitler, but its just an interesting thought.
(Then again, maybe they are corrupt, because Hitler was religious, attempting to cleanse the world for what he believed to be the best thing for everyone. But no, he was wrong, noone knows what is best for everyone, only for themselves.)
Keep to yourself, fight for yourself, fight for your right, fight for your freedom, fight for Sanctuary.
That is the message given to us. And if Heaven can help save sanctuary, then let them help, an alliance is beneficial, just don't let them take over completley. But I wouldn't worry, you can always count on Demons to rise up.
One other thing, the holocaust had nothing to do with relegion, except that the jews were one of the groups targeted. It was about manipulation and population controll, but that is a whole different topic.
I don't take into account whether or not we know where everything will end up, that's not my idea of chaos. My idea of chaos is disarray, and those pieces lying on the ground are not ordered in any shape or pattern. They're randomly lying on the ground in piles.
Misscommunication. x.x
The guys know where it is going to land because they use the correct amount of explosives to put things where they want them. If they just shoved explosives in the building it would basically just be a bomb, kinda like 9/11. Trained demolition experts never have such chaos going on when they take a building down, and it can even months of preperation to make sure that it goes where they want it to go.
There was a building in Vegas (Cant remember the name but yea...) that was 3 feet away from other buildings around it on both sides. The demolitions experts planned it so well that it didn't harm the other buildings at all. It really was a tribute to ordered destruction.