I could see a lesser demon defecting to the forces of the High Heavens if the demon felt he would benefit from it in some way. But it is also difficult to see the High Heavens trusting a defecting demon for any reason.
But that's not really the same thing. That demon remains unchanged and is still as vile as it ever was. But actually joining Heaven, permanently, is something that'd be new. And strange, that concept very rarely makes any sense in games. It always comes down to some fluffy and nice little explanation whenever someone turns good.
Unlike when someone turns evil, at which point there is an endless stream or intricate reasonings and explanations.
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Hmm. Well the forces of the High Heavens believe in order while the Burning Hells believe that choas should be the natural order of things. So it would require a demon who found something appealing about order and creation as opposed to chaos and destruction. And since it is often commented on how complex the mind of a demon is, there's no telling what may pique a demon's interest. So it could perhaps stumble upon a bastion of the High Heavens, see the intricate order surrounding the demon, and the demon could then be in a state of dissonance with what he sees. If the demon fails to overcome the dissonance, then it may come to truly believe that order is the true nature of the universe and thus wish to fight for that order. Any other ideological change may come over time the longer the demon fights for order.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
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It happened with Izual didn't it? I think Izual was seduced by the forces of the Burning Hells. The problem with when anyone turns evil is you have to wonder whether they did it of their own free will or whether their minds were merely invaded by the Prime Evils. I think with Izual it may have been a little bit of both.
"I am concerned because of the magic that was used to open the gateway," Kubraxis said. "When demons come from the Burning Hells, so too comes the seeds of their potential downfall. It is a balance kept between the Light and the Darkness. But by the same hand, no Champion of the Light may burst forth without a weakness that can be exploited. It is up to the champion which propensity, strength or weakness, wins out. And it's up to the demon whether he stands against the power that would banish him from this plane again."
They always have a "balance" in place. Seeing as though Good and Evil have a true balance (sometimes unknown to the world), who's to say what effect the destruction of an item made by The Light would have on that balance? The soulstones were used to contain the Primes during their banishment to Sanctuary. Baal's stone was partially shattered and managed to contain his entire soul. If in fact M3phisto & Diablo's stones were destroyed, where does their life force go? Could it be that their evil remains in those shattered remains of the soulstones littered throughout the River of Flame? Hm...
Nice quote. I've always said Kabraxis would make for an interesting character in a Diablo game. I like that he's patient and pragmatic and doesn't use blunt force, but is manipulative and coercive instead.
And the quote does shed a lot on the mind of demons. I would imagine many Carver camps you see in the first act, that some may be aligned with the Prime Evils, others might be trying to gain their own power independent of the Prime Evils. So they might do things to try and gain power, such as stealing inn signs with the sun drawn on them.
So it would require a demon who found something appealing about order and creation as opposed to chaos and destruction.
unless he or she err it is "double agenting"
If in fact M3phisto & Diablo's stones were destroyed, where does their life force go? Could it be that their evil remains in those shattered remains of the soulstones littered throughout the River of Flame? Hm...
It has been stated many time, including by BLizzard, that their essence or life force becomes trapping in the abyss.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
The Soulstones weren't completely made by heaven though. Aren't they small fragments of the World Stone? I always thought they were.
I think the 'good guy falls to darkness' thing works well in stories because its a 'tragic hero' device. I studied the tragic hero formula in english, and used Macbeth and Anakin from Starwars as examples. Both of those stories also have the 'good vs evil' thing to them too, which is different to a tragic hero. I wonder what the opposite is? Tragic villain? lol.
We probably haven't seen is as much because it may not work as well as a story-telling device. I mean, can you ever trust someone who was once evil? not just a bad person, but an actual demon? They would have to be cleansed, but the only 'cleansing' churches seem to offer is in the form of fire lol. If they did do it, I hope they don't do the whole 'we will never trust you' cliche, or if they do it, atleast don't do it in a cliche way.
If they treat it the same way as we treat an angel 'falling to darkness', then it could work. They could say that the demon was drawn to the light like a pathetic moth. But come on, as if heaven would accept them. They are like an army, and no army on earth would accept a member of the enemy while still at war. They would lock them away, probably treating them nicely, but nonetheless a prisoner lol. Definitely wouldn't be put into the ranks. The demon would create chaos just by being there.
It has been stated many time, including by Blizzard, that their essence or life force becomes trapping in the abyss.
Tyrael:
"Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible!
Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them, and the corrupted Soulstones are no more."
Meaning that the corruption of the soulstones is no more...Diablo & M3phisto exist in the same plane as they always had. They didn't need the soulstones to brave Sanctuary to begin with..unless Azmodan and Belial knew something that Tyrael had no idea of :confused:
are you arguing for or against my above statement? or clarifying it?
The Prime Evils existed for a time in the mortal Realm without soulstones, they were of course later trapped in them. The soulstones acted like a spiritual prison of sorts. To take physical forms once again, a host body was needed, Using the body of King Leoric proved futile as he was too old, (this led him to become the Blackened King, he later become The Skeleton King) so the Archbishop Lazarus used the body of Prince Albrecht (This is Diablo in D1), Diablo was defeated and his essence or spirit returned to the soulstone. The Warrior who defeated Diablo believed himself to be strong enough to contain the demon, thus too proved to be a futile effort as he himself became posessed by Diablo.
Now it need to be mentioned that while the Prime Evils were trapped in the soulstones they could still perform some pretty impressive things. Diablo was able to corrupt the Arch Bishop Lazarus, and Mephisto was able to corrupt virtually every single member of the Zakarum church, save one, it's leader and purest of priests, the Que Hagan, Kalim. As he could not corrupt Kalim he had the council members he did corrupt hack Khalim to bits and scatter them about the jungles of Kehjistan, Now Khalim was a logical choice but he was too "good" and would never allow it thus why the killed him. Mephisto had the council members work spells to shatter the soulstone into seven pieces, and he pressed a shard into each member. The new head of the council, Sankekur, received the largest shard and eventually became the embodiment of Mephisto. While the full effects of the small shards are unknown, it can be some what assumed they are a power boost, but no where near that of the larger shard in Sankekur.
Whether or not Baal possess the same ability to corrupt those outside of his prison is unknown, as he means of escape airs more on the side of trickery than corruption, unless you consider a fake image in the mind to be a form of corruption. Baal is released from his prison by having the largest part of his soulstone removed from Tal Rasha's chest. This differs from the cases of his brother's due to Tal Rasha needing to be used to replace a portion of Baal's soulstone.
Err where was I going with that oh right yeh, defeating a Prime Evil "forces" their essence back into the soulstone. Then as proven many times if it is not destroyed at Hellforge, they can corrupt someone, or a group of people and free themselves, it's not offical but I suspect their is a small degree of LOTRism at work here, and the hellforge is the only place the stones can be destroyed (which is similiar to the case of the fires of Mt Doom and the One Ring), once destroyed, the essence becomes trapped in the Black Abyss.
Thanks for providing the full name of the Abyss, i can never remember it, and thanks for the few words that followed, "that spawned them". My God am I sick of these bullshit theories about the Prime Evils being born like a human or animal, They are created out of Chaos, like various gods and monsters from various races people creation story myths and legends. They are not the byproduct of two demons getting busy!
Oh and before I forget, it would seem Lesser Evils, much like any other demon can move between planes fairly easily, possible through a portal of some kind. The Prime Evils were banished to Sanctuary, that's how they got there, how the other demons got there is, and bearing in mind I have the SIn War books arriving next week and that may change this point, a matter of oppinion, but portal is simle and logical, portal or rift between planes are virtually the same thing, they join two planes, demons move from one to the other.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
the point behind stressing the "from the abyss that spawned them" was that their life force is the same as ours. It's immortal, with or without a point of manifestation. Without that "balance" there can be no plane for eternal good nor a plane of eternal damnation. The point I attempt to make is that you cannot destroy any life force, only bend it to your will.
In order to fully rationalize the parallels between the three realms you must consider our mortal bodies to be virtual "soulstones" because once it's broken our souls go back to their essence (if this wasn't true it would completely negate the heaven vs hell theory behind the game). The Primes are still lurking somewhere, they just don't have such simple access to the mortal realm. (Not to mention it sounds quite foolish that the Primes would subject themselves to a plan divulged to them by an Angel, in which there would be a harm that could outweigh the benfits..they thrive on disorder, so they would have to be incredibly meticulous in putting together a plan.)
I'm not sure if the point of Tal Rasha being needed to "complete" Baal's soulstone. In the A5 Prolouge, Marius gives Baal his own soulstone thinking that he was Tyrael. In that? Who's body is Baal using when he visits Marius?
Remember too that while there are higher forces manipulating Sanctuary to keep it in balance, there are also even higher forces manipulating Heaven and Hell, keeping their 'eternal conflict' in balance.
One of the necromancers summoned a 'Dreamer' that resembles a toad and is implied to be above Heaven and Hell, asking it for help. Could you imagine? Thats like the equivalent of an angel being summoned by an insect. That would annoy me so much if I was that angel (or demon), or especially a sleeping one like the Dreamer, who clearly only wants to sleep lol. Far too much for us to comprehend.
Remember too that while there are higher forces manipulating Sanctuary to keep it in balance, there are also even higher forces manipulating Heaven and Hell, keeping their 'eternal conflict' in balance.
One of the necromancers summoned a 'Dreamer' that resembles a toad and is implied to be above Heaven and Hell, asking it for help. Could you imagine? Thats like the equivalent of an angel being summoned by an insect. That would annoy me so much if I was that angel (or demon), or especially a sleeping one like the Dreamer, who clearly only wants to sleep lol. Far too much for us to comprehend.
hence the joys of such open lore...anything's possible ^+^
It happened with Izual didn't it? I think Izual was seduced by the forces of the Burning Hells.
No, I only meant the fact that the minds of angels aren't called intricate in the same way. Then again humans haven't been in contact with angels very much either.
Quote from "Atrumentis" »
If they treat it the same way as we treat an angel 'falling to darkness', then it could work. They could say that the demon was drawn to the light like a pathetic moth. But come on, as if heaven would accept them. They are like an army, and no army on earth would accept a member of the enemy while still at war. They would lock them away, probably treating them nicely, but nonetheless a prisoner lol. Definitely wouldn't be put into the ranks. The demon would create chaos just by being there.
Good point. The forces of Heaven are based much more on trust than those from Hell, which creates problems for turncoats.
Quote from "SolitariumDesigns" »
In order to fully rationalize the parallels between the three realms you must consider our mortal bodies to be virtual "soulstones" because once it's broken our souls go back to their essence (if this wasn't true it would completely negate the heaven vs hell theory behind the game).
Could you please explain further on this, I'm not following you at all.
Quote from "SolitariumDesigns" »
I'm not sure if the point of Tal Rasha being needed to "complete" Baal's soulstone. In the A5 Prolouge, Marius gives Baal his own soulstone thinking that he was Tyrael. In that? Who's body is Baal using when he visits Marius?
He's probably still Tal Rasha. Just as Mephisto inserst a shard of his soustone into the high priest, Baal could do the same to Tal Rasha. I'd suscpect his body could no longer work as a prison after the connection between the stone and him was broken. It probably involved some heavy spells and rituals upon first impisoning him there, and those cannot be remade simply by putting the stone back into his body.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Could you please explain further on this, I'm not following you at all.
When you die, people say that if you either spend an eternity in bliss(heaven), or in damnation(hell). If this is the case, consider your body to be similar to a soulstone. What happens when your body can no longer sustain your life? Where does your life energy go?? Back to the essence from which it came(essentially God...unless you were corrupt and in which you spend an eternity amidst the most corrupt).
When the soulstones were destroyed, they were destroyed using the demonic equivalent to the holy magic that created them (there must always be a balance, and that's why you had to use the hellforge). This turn of events reset the balance to what it was before the soulstones were brought to fruition (the Prime Evils continued existence in the Abyss).
There are a million and one explanations as to what happens after Tyrael destroys the Worldstone (the reason behind the worldstone being introduced presents yet another plot hole). This is where the fun comes in
The whole "Death" issue needs to be answered in D3. Can the Three actually die? What happenens when they are slain? We do not know really, but it doesn't bode well for humnaity if they cannot be permanently destroyed, right?
Can you really end hatred? Can you really end terror? Can you really end destruction? The Three are the manifestation of these things, and as long as hatred, terror, and destruction are in this world, so too will the Three.
Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »
Yes, demons often allign themselves with whoever is the most benefical to them at that time, and more often than not this is either the Prime Evils as a collective or prehaps on of the lesser evils, more than likely Belial and/or Azmodan as the toher two are in fact dead.
But siding with the High Heavens, temporarily, is prehaps not out of the question, they may even betray them to further their own self absorbed plans for something.
Like a double agent or something?
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
But that's not really the same thing. That demon remains unchanged and is still as vile as it ever was. But actually joining Heaven, permanently, is something that'd be new. And strange, that concept very rarely makes any sense in games. It always comes down to some fluffy and nice little explanation whenever someone turns good.
Unlike when someone turns evil, at which point there is an endless stream or intricate reasonings and explanations.
That always pisses me off. The good guy has to have this huge 500 page report explaining why he went bad but the bad guy just "sees the error of his ways" and goes good.
Fucking gah!!!
Quote from "Atrumentis" »
Hells yes!
I just wanna meet more and more unique demons and hear their individual story.
What if, persay, in Diablo 3, one of the characters is a demon that came to the side of good? We see all these good guys that went bad, but what if we actually got to play as a demon-turned-good?
He's probably still Tal Rasha. Just as Mephisto inserst a shard of his soustone into the high priest, Baal could do the same to Tal Rasha. I'd suscpect his body could no longer work as a prison after the connection between the stone and him was broken. It probably involved some heavy spells and rituals upon first impisoning him there, and those cannot be remade simply by putting the stone back into his body.
But when they first introduce Baal during the battle between Tyrael and Diablo in the Tomb, Baal was in his fully manifested form. Did he mutate the body of Tal Rasha? Or did he find another host on his way to Mount Arreat? And if that is Tal Rsha's body..where does the life force of the possessed go???
No, in act 5 he is still Tal Rasha. Tal Rasha is essentually both the host and the soulstone err I think, he seems to switch between the two. And Tal Rasha is the most powerful mage in existence, I wouldn't give up that body and lose all those spells.
As for why he changes forms between classic and expansion, that is hard to say as it isn't said by blizzard, we have to theorise, a warping due to Baal's destructive nature is one theory. there are more. Baal's Host is Tal Rasha. Only Diablo has had more than one host.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
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Unlike when someone turns evil, at which point there is an endless stream or intricate reasonings and explanations.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
"I am concerned because of the magic that was used to open the gateway," Kubraxis said. "When demons come from the Burning Hells, so too comes the seeds of their potential downfall. It is a balance kept between the Light and the Darkness. But by the same hand, no Champion of the Light may burst forth without a weakness that can be exploited. It is up to the champion which propensity, strength or weakness, wins out. And it's up to the demon whether he stands against the power that would banish him from this plane again."
They always have a "balance" in place. Seeing as though Good and Evil have a true balance (sometimes unknown to the world), who's to say what effect the destruction of an item made by The Light would have on that balance? The soulstones were used to contain the Primes during their banishment to Sanctuary. Baal's stone was partially shattered and managed to contain his entire soul. If in fact M3phisto & Diablo's stones were destroyed, where does their life force go? Could it be that their evil remains in those shattered remains of the soulstones littered throughout the River of Flame? Hm...
the Solitarium is my dominion...
And the quote does shed a lot on the mind of demons. I would imagine many Carver camps you see in the first act, that some may be aligned with the Prime Evils, others might be trying to gain their own power independent of the Prime Evils. So they might do things to try and gain power, such as stealing inn signs with the sun drawn on them.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
the Solitarium is my dominion...
unless he or she err it is "double agenting"
It has been stated many time, including by BLizzard, that their essence or life force becomes trapping in the abyss.
I think the 'good guy falls to darkness' thing works well in stories because its a 'tragic hero' device. I studied the tragic hero formula in english, and used Macbeth and Anakin from Starwars as examples. Both of those stories also have the 'good vs evil' thing to them too, which is different to a tragic hero. I wonder what the opposite is? Tragic villain? lol.
We probably haven't seen is as much because it may not work as well as a story-telling device. I mean, can you ever trust someone who was once evil? not just a bad person, but an actual demon? They would have to be cleansed, but the only 'cleansing' churches seem to offer is in the form of fire lol. If they did do it, I hope they don't do the whole 'we will never trust you' cliche, or if they do it, atleast don't do it in a cliche way.
If they treat it the same way as we treat an angel 'falling to darkness', then it could work. They could say that the demon was drawn to the light like a pathetic moth. But come on, as if heaven would accept them. They are like an army, and no army on earth would accept a member of the enemy while still at war. They would lock them away, probably treating them nicely, but nonetheless a prisoner lol. Definitely wouldn't be put into the ranks. The demon would create chaos just by being there.
Tyrael:
"Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible!
Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them, and the corrupted Soulstones are no more."
Meaning that the corruption of the soulstones is no more...Diablo & M3phisto exist in the same plane as they always had. They didn't need the soulstones to brave Sanctuary to begin with..unless Azmodan and Belial knew something that Tyrael had no idea of :confused:
the Solitarium is my dominion...
The Prime Evils existed for a time in the mortal Realm without soulstones, they were of course later trapped in them. The soulstones acted like a spiritual prison of sorts. To take physical forms once again, a host body was needed, Using the body of King Leoric proved futile as he was too old, (this led him to become the Blackened King, he later become The Skeleton King) so the Archbishop Lazarus used the body of Prince Albrecht (This is Diablo in D1), Diablo was defeated and his essence or spirit returned to the soulstone. The Warrior who defeated Diablo believed himself to be strong enough to contain the demon, thus too proved to be a futile effort as he himself became posessed by Diablo.
Now it need to be mentioned that while the Prime Evils were trapped in the soulstones they could still perform some pretty impressive things. Diablo was able to corrupt the Arch Bishop Lazarus, and Mephisto was able to corrupt virtually every single member of the Zakarum church, save one, it's leader and purest of priests, the Que Hagan, Kalim. As he could not corrupt Kalim he had the council members he did corrupt hack Khalim to bits and scatter them about the jungles of Kehjistan, Now Khalim was a logical choice but he was too "good" and would never allow it thus why the killed him. Mephisto had the council members work spells to shatter the soulstone into seven pieces, and he pressed a shard into each member. The new head of the council, Sankekur, received the largest shard and eventually became the embodiment of Mephisto. While the full effects of the small shards are unknown, it can be some what assumed they are a power boost, but no where near that of the larger shard in Sankekur.
Whether or not Baal possess the same ability to corrupt those outside of his prison is unknown, as he means of escape airs more on the side of trickery than corruption, unless you consider a fake image in the mind to be a form of corruption. Baal is released from his prison by having the largest part of his soulstone removed from Tal Rasha's chest. This differs from the cases of his brother's due to Tal Rasha needing to be used to replace a portion of Baal's soulstone.
Err where was I going with that oh right yeh, defeating a Prime Evil "forces" their essence back into the soulstone. Then as proven many times if it is not destroyed at Hellforge, they can corrupt someone, or a group of people and free themselves, it's not offical but I suspect their is a small degree of LOTRism at work here, and the hellforge is the only place the stones can be destroyed (which is similiar to the case of the fires of Mt Doom and the One Ring), once destroyed, the essence becomes trapped in the Black Abyss.
Thanks for providing the full name of the Abyss, i can never remember it, and thanks for the few words that followed, "that spawned them". My God am I sick of these bullshit theories about the Prime Evils being born like a human or animal, They are created out of Chaos, like various gods and monsters from various races people creation story myths and legends. They are not the byproduct of two demons getting busy!
Oh and before I forget, it would seem Lesser Evils, much like any other demon can move between planes fairly easily, possible through a portal of some kind. The Prime Evils were banished to Sanctuary, that's how they got there, how the other demons got there is, and bearing in mind I have the SIn War books arriving next week and that may change this point, a matter of oppinion, but portal is simle and logical, portal or rift between planes are virtually the same thing, they join two planes, demons move from one to the other.
In order to fully rationalize the parallels between the three realms you must consider our mortal bodies to be virtual "soulstones" because once it's broken our souls go back to their essence (if this wasn't true it would completely negate the heaven vs hell theory behind the game). The Primes are still lurking somewhere, they just don't have such simple access to the mortal realm. (Not to mention it sounds quite foolish that the Primes would subject themselves to a plan divulged to them by an Angel, in which there would be a harm that could outweigh the benfits..they thrive on disorder, so they would have to be incredibly meticulous in putting together a plan.)
I'm not sure if the point of Tal Rasha being needed to "complete" Baal's soulstone. In the A5 Prolouge, Marius gives Baal his own soulstone thinking that he was Tyrael. In that? Who's body is Baal using when he visits Marius?
the Solitarium is my dominion...
One of the necromancers summoned a 'Dreamer' that resembles a toad and is implied to be above Heaven and Hell, asking it for help. Could you imagine? Thats like the equivalent of an angel being summoned by an insect. That would annoy me so much if I was that angel (or demon), or especially a sleeping one like the Dreamer, who clearly only wants to sleep lol. Far too much for us to comprehend.
hence the joys of such open lore...anything's possible ^+^
the Solitarium is my dominion...
I just wanna meet more and more unique demons and hear their individual story.
Good point. The forces of Heaven are based much more on trust than those from Hell, which creates problems for turncoats.
Could you please explain further on this, I'm not following you at all.
He's probably still Tal Rasha. Just as Mephisto inserst a shard of his soustone into the high priest, Baal could do the same to Tal Rasha. I'd suscpect his body could no longer work as a prison after the connection between the stone and him was broken. It probably involved some heavy spells and rituals upon first impisoning him there, and those cannot be remade simply by putting the stone back into his body.
When you die, people say that if you either spend an eternity in bliss(heaven), or in damnation(hell). If this is the case, consider your body to be similar to a soulstone. What happens when your body can no longer sustain your life? Where does your life energy go?? Back to the essence from which it came(essentially God...unless you were corrupt and in which you spend an eternity amidst the most corrupt).
When the soulstones were destroyed, they were destroyed using the demonic equivalent to the holy magic that created them (there must always be a balance, and that's why you had to use the hellforge). This turn of events reset the balance to what it was before the soulstones were brought to fruition (the Prime Evils continued existence in the Abyss).
There are a million and one explanations as to what happens after Tyrael destroys the Worldstone (the reason behind the worldstone being introduced presents yet another plot hole). This is where the fun comes in
the Solitarium is my dominion...
Can you really end hatred? Can you really end terror? Can you really end destruction? The Three are the manifestation of these things, and as long as hatred, terror, and destruction are in this world, so too will the Three.
Like a double agent or something?
That always pisses me off. The good guy has to have this huge 500 page report explaining why he went bad but the bad guy just "sees the error of his ways" and goes good.
Fucking gah!!!
What if, persay, in Diablo 3, one of the characters is a demon that came to the side of good? We see all these good guys that went bad, but what if we actually got to play as a demon-turned-good?
But when they first introduce Baal during the battle between Tyrael and Diablo in the Tomb, Baal was in his fully manifested form. Did he mutate the body of Tal Rasha? Or did he find another host on his way to Mount Arreat? And if that is Tal Rsha's body..where does the life force of the possessed go???
Questions, questions...
the Solitarium is my dominion...
As for why he changes forms between classic and expansion, that is hard to say as it isn't said by blizzard, we have to theorise, a warping due to Baal's destructive nature is one theory. there are more. Baal's Host is Tal Rasha. Only Diablo has had more than one host.