Also, there are builds in D3 that don't need CHD, or builds that even try to stay away from IAS, and so on. It's not all black and white... what are these builds for endgame? endgame = efficient killing things on mp8-10, not 5mins to bitchslap one elitepack
what are these builds for endgame? endgame = efficient killing things on mp8-10, not 5mins to bitchslap one elitepack
CMWW is the one I know of, the wizard build talked about previously. It doesn't need CD, though CD does raise the dps and thus farming speed. However the build farms MP8-10 reasonably fast with as little as 100-150k dps. Lower MP are still more efficient, but that's likely true for pretty much everyone trying to run MP8-10. With the right gear and choice of skills you can kill elites in 20-30s or less pretty easily.
What Loroese said. Plus, WDs stay away from IAS because it just makes mana consumption go through the roof. (It's something that wasn't obvious to me at first, but getting rid of IAS helped a lot).
What Loroese said. Plus, WDs stay away from IAS because it just makes mana consumption go through the roof. (It's something that wasn't obvious to me at first, but getting rid of IAS helped a lot).
That is ONE build out of the entire game thus far that I know of.
By getting rid of you mean by swapping it with an alternative dmg stat right?
Old-school WW barbs focus on IAS and CC to proc Fury regeneration and LOH from Sprint Dust Devils. Technically no need for CD there other than to speed up killing things (which is counter-productive since WW barbs want to keep things alive just long enough to retain Fury regeneration for WOTB).
^^I thought the point was to kill things, not keep them alive. If you're killing things too fast, you can increase the MP level, which brings me (and you) back to the original point: CC+CD.
Yep, and you'll keep killing things faster and faster, so you keep ramping up MP higher and higher, until everything dies too fast anyway and you come to the conclusion...
...Well, I think I'm pretty stacked now. I'm at the elusive "end-game."
Agree with Jaetch. Played ww barb for about 500 hours and the build can get unbalanced if you stack too much damage before the rest of your gear is ready for it. You want mobs to stay alive long enough for your nado's to proc fury otherwise your walking around fury starved. I play CMWW now and play style aside there's a lot of similarities in the way the builds work, IAS and CC are mandatory stats for the builds to work correctly. If you just wanted to stack huge CC/CD it's not that hard, what's hard is balancing dps with other stats to increase you effective dps, and it should be IMO.
WW barbs want to keep things alive just long enough to retain Fury regeneration for WOTB).
You don't want to one-shot trash mobs, which is what I meant about going into high MP levels.
Then as he said you ramp up the difficulty.... If you can easily 1 shot mobs, then you should be doing that anyways, regardless of the spec/class. You won't be 1 shotting MP10 mobs.
Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.
I'm confused on two things. Only one of which has to do with this. The whole idea of why people are pigeonholed is because they only accept the fast farming gear possible, which means just enough ehp to survive, and then DPS DPS DPS! If they nerf CHC/CHD, then something else will be the best, and everyone will focus on that. Correct? Is a better solution to be so all DPS stats (which, lets be honest, as long as this game is about farming item drops, it's going to be the same idea of just enough ehp to live, and then all damage) are so amazingly balanced that you can stack any of them and it would work? That sounds near impossible. Or is the complaint that it is just easier to do this with CHC/CHD?
The second thing that confuses me is that CHD is really only OPed if you get enough CHC (and base stats). Is it really that easy to get enough CHC to make CHD useful? Further, everyone seems to be saying +CHD vs anything stat, but that's not the issue. It's actually +CHC AND +CHD vs any other stat. This might not matter if it's actually easy to get +CHC up enough. I'm not sure, never had that much cash.
Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.
It's not the prevalence of CHC/CHD gear. It's the fact that in EVERY SLOT the BiS items amount to "lump as much DPS stats into this piece as possible, then use any leftover properties for Vit/% Life/resist all." I made a few posts about this using amulets and gloves as examples.
Lets just say you're a DH. You roll an amulet with Dex, minmax damage, Crit Chance, and IAS. That's 4 of 6 properties. What do you, ideally, want to do with the last two properties? Most would say Crit Damage and Dex-Vit hybrid.
The problem is not that any offensive stat is "OP." It's that any item becomes better by sacrificing EHP for DPS. You can get enough EHP from shoulders, legs, chest, waist, boots, and helm that you want to max the fuck out of offensive stats on amulet, rings, gloves, and weapons.
We have TOO MANY potential offensive stats on a few particular items which completely trumps the idea of taking defensive stats on those itesm. That's the whole problem with the system. Hell, weapons can't even roll resist all, not like anyone would ever want that... but they can't.
Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.
I'm confused on two things. Only one of which has to do with this. The whole idea of why people are pigeonholed is because they only accept the fast farming gear possible, which means just enough ehp to survive, and then DPS DPS DPS! If they nerf CHC/CHD, then something else will be the best, and everyone will focus on that. Correct? Is a better solution to be so all DPS stats (which, lets be honest, as long as this game is about farming item drops, it's going to be the same idea of just enough ehp to live, and then all damage) are so amazingly balanced that you can stack any of them and it would work? That sounds near impossible. Or is the complaint that it is just easier to do this with CHC/CHD?
The second thing that confuses me is that CHD is really only OPed if you get enough CHC (and base stats). Is it really that easy to get enough CHC to make CHD useful? Further, everyone seems to be saying +CHD vs anything stat, but that's not the issue. It's actually +CHC AND +CHD vs any other stat. This might not matter if it's actually easy to get +CHC up enough. I'm not sure, never had that much cash.
That is a viable argument IF it were the best by a small margin, but its a grand canyon.
Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.
I have no doubts that we are "pigeon holed" into certain gear choices. However I still dont understand
None of that changes the fact that at 60 geared its by far the most dominant stat far surpassing any other in dps contribution. It needs to be nerfed! Blizz can either lower Crit dmg affixes. lower crit chance (though this makes +crit% skills stronger) or nerf both.
Can anyone explain why anyone would suggest a nerf to CHC / CHD, Because it make zero sense to me in a game where the sole idea after hitting level cap is to make your character as strong as possible. Nerfing CHC/CHD would obviously mean that your DPS would go down.
Because it pigeon holes everyone into the same gear and same specs. Especially weapons.
Balancing the game makes it more fun for everyone.
Critical chance and critical damage bonus is probably the number #1 problem of the game, I've said it many times but I get shut downed by fanboys all the time. CC and CD bonus have become something so important that if an item doesn't have it, it's completely useless even if the rest of the stats are godlike. For exemple, I found a 2 handed weapon not long ago, 1290 dps, 500 str, 300 vit and 2 other good stats but guess what, no critical damage bonus and no critical chance neither, so my little crappy 790 dps dagger was better overall because it has CD bonus. I found sooo many great items, or should I say would be great items if CC and CD weren't a must but guess what, it is.
Another thing blizzard didn't think through while making the game. Add it to the list.
Just because Enigma was crap and was detrimental to the game in D2, doesn't mean we (they) should make the same mistake.
It isn't the 'same' mistake though, the issue with enigma was that 1 item was broken, the issue with CHC and CHD or OWE and single element resists and a few others are the synergy between the two 'things' which is a lot harder to detect (and probably unreasonable to expect them to find everything, that's what balance patches are for) when the testing population was considerable smaller than the playerbase, and from blue posts I've seen used randomly generated gear to simulate self found play rather than custom gear to simulate AH sourced items.
The further issue is that with the official auction houses there is a huge outcry when a nerf happens that affects something that people have spent real money on (or which they assign a value to) which fundamentally changes the equation when considering balance changes.
Blizzard are obviously aware of the problem as they buffed rubies considerably to try and give alternatives to emeralds and is still talk of changes to OWE.
2000 in main stat = x20 on your damage output
+30% attack speed = x1.3 on your damage output (WDs without infinite mana are exempt)
50% crit chance = x1.5 on your damage output (extra damage/effects might occur depending on crit effect triggers on passives and skills)
100% crit damage = x1.05 on your damage output (with default 5% crit chance)
Is getting 2000 in a main stat easy and cheap? YES!
Is getting +30% in attack speed easy and cheap? YES!
Is getting 50% in crit hit chance easy and cheap? YES!
Is getting 100% in crit damage stat easy and cheap? YES!
Is getting 2000 main, +30% attack speed, 50% crit chance and 300% crit damage at the same time easy and cheap? HELL NO!
Is getting from 2000 main stat to 3000 main stat easier then getting 2000 main stat, +30% crit chance and 165% crit damage? Nope.
If you have the stats 100 main stat, 50% crit chance, 500% crit damage, and find a super duper hidden legendary ring that gives you another 10% crit chance, and 100% crit damage will still suck more then a blue vendor ring that gives you +200 main stat...
It's a balance...
Lazy mans chart:
Edit: Had to fiddle a bit with the new google drive
Those stats you listed are all cheap together... One weapon will have nearly 100% crit dmg!
Cost is hardly the issue anyways.
Whats expensive is getting high dps, but not being a glass canon. Any item with +Vitality or +AR on it doubles, triples, or more in price. Even if its not much.
Just because Enigma was crap and was detrimental to the game in D2, doesn't mean we (they) should make the same mistake.
It isn't the 'same' mistake though, the issue with enigma was that 1 item was broken, the issue with CHC and CHD or OWE and single element resists and a few others are the synergy between the two 'things' which is a lot harder to detect (and probably unreasonable to expect them to find everything, that's what balance patches are for) when the testing population was considerable smaller than the playerbase, and from blue posts I've seen used randomly generated gear to simulate self found play rather than custom gear to simulate AH sourced items.
The further issue is that with the official auction houses there is a huge outcry when a nerf happens that affects something that people have spent real money on (or which they assign a value to) which fundamentally changes the equation when considering balance changes.
Blizzard are obviously aware of the problem as they buffed rubies considerably to try and give alternatives to emeralds and is still talk of changes to OWE.
What is OWE?
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Enigma
That was OP as hell as well though...
white...
what are these builds for endgame? endgame = efficient killing things on mp8-10, not 5mins to bitchslap one elitepack
CMWW is the one I know of, the wizard build talked about previously. It doesn't need CD, though CD does raise the dps and thus farming speed. However the build farms MP8-10 reasonably fast with as little as 100-150k dps. Lower MP are still more efficient, but that's likely true for pretty much everyone trying to run MP8-10. With the right gear and choice of skills you can kill elites in 20-30s or less pretty easily.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
That is ONE build out of the entire game thus far that I know of.
By getting rid of you mean by swapping it with an alternative dmg stat right?
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
Yep, and you'll keep killing things faster and faster, so you keep ramping up MP higher and higher, until everything dies too fast anyway and you come to the conclusion...
...Well, I think I'm pretty stacked now. I'm at the elusive "end-game."
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
You don't want to one-shot trash mobs, which is what I meant about going into high MP levels.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
Then as he said you ramp up the difficulty.... If you can easily 1 shot mobs, then you should be doing that anyways, regardless of the spec/class. You won't be 1 shotting MP10 mobs.
I'm confused on two things. Only one of which has to do with this. The whole idea of why people are pigeonholed is because they only accept the fast farming gear possible, which means just enough ehp to survive, and then DPS DPS DPS! If they nerf CHC/CHD, then something else will be the best, and everyone will focus on that. Correct? Is a better solution to be so all DPS stats (which, lets be honest, as long as this game is about farming item drops, it's going to be the same idea of just enough ehp to live, and then all damage) are so amazingly balanced that you can stack any of them and it would work? That sounds near impossible. Or is the complaint that it is just easier to do this with CHC/CHD?
The second thing that confuses me is that CHD is really only OPed if you get enough CHC (and base stats). Is it really that easy to get enough CHC to make CHD useful? Further, everyone seems to be saying +CHD vs anything stat, but that's not the issue. It's actually +CHC AND +CHD vs any other stat. This might not matter if it's actually easy to get +CHC up enough. I'm not sure, never had that much cash.
It's not the prevalence of CHC/CHD gear. It's the fact that in EVERY SLOT the BiS items amount to "lump as much DPS stats into this piece as possible, then use any leftover properties for Vit/% Life/resist all." I made a few posts about this using amulets and gloves as examples.
Lets just say you're a DH. You roll an amulet with Dex, minmax damage, Crit Chance, and IAS. That's 4 of 6 properties. What do you, ideally, want to do with the last two properties? Most would say Crit Damage and Dex-Vit hybrid.
The problem is not that any offensive stat is "OP." It's that any item becomes better by sacrificing EHP for DPS. You can get enough EHP from shoulders, legs, chest, waist, boots, and helm that you want to max the fuck out of offensive stats on amulet, rings, gloves, and weapons.
We have TOO MANY potential offensive stats on a few particular items which completely trumps the idea of taking defensive stats on those itesm. That's the whole problem with the system. Hell, weapons can't even roll resist all, not like anyone would ever want that... but they can't.
That is a viable argument IF it were the best by a small margin, but its a grand canyon.
Because it pigeon holes everyone into the same gear and same specs. Especially weapons.
Balancing the game makes it more fun for everyone.
Another thing blizzard didn't think through while making the game. Add it to the list.
I don't think there's anyone that does damage without using skills.
It isn't the 'same' mistake though, the issue with enigma was that 1 item was broken, the issue with CHC and CHD or OWE and single element resists and a few others are the synergy between the two 'things' which is a lot harder to detect (and probably unreasonable to expect them to find everything, that's what balance patches are for) when the testing population was considerable smaller than the playerbase, and from blue posts I've seen used randomly generated gear to simulate self found play rather than custom gear to simulate AH sourced items.
The further issue is that with the official auction houses there is a huge outcry when a nerf happens that affects something that people have spent real money on (or which they assign a value to) which fundamentally changes the equation when considering balance changes.
Blizzard are obviously aware of the problem as they buffed rubies considerably to try and give alternatives to emeralds and is still talk of changes to OWE.
Those stats you listed are all cheap together... One weapon will have nearly 100% crit dmg!
Cost is hardly the issue anyways.
Whats expensive is getting high dps, but not being a glass canon. Any item with +Vitality or +AR on it doubles, triples, or more in price. Even if its not much.
What is OWE?