Lots of good advice in this thread. I started CM wiz about 4 months ago and have been going through the upgrade struggle ever since, can be super frustrating at times but it's a lot more fun then my barb was.
I would say your biggest problem is your armor/LoH, I run SNS in a mp10 group with a couple cyclone monks with a 4574-armor/47k-life/766-Res/1121-LOH/2.76-AS and I'm still not satisfied with my survivability. You have nice resist but 3372 armor is much too low and I assume that's why your using crystal shell and not shards. Easy partial solution would be to replace your BT pants with a pair with 800+ armor. for the LOH I'd start crafting ammy's, I'm over a 1000 crafts now and have made about 12 that are good (no trifecta yet...) the one I'm currently wearing gives me the best balance for high mp so far.
I also agree with those suggesting IC+rare ring over the Zuni set, at your amount of vit the 12% life bonus on IC's will give you more life then the vit on your Zuni's and it's fairly cheap to find a 245+ int pair that when socketed will completely replace the int you get from the set bonus, you can also get armor and vit rolls.
If you look at the IC+rare ring in currently wearing (http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/richtko-1182/EXLAND/19256100#) which there still has of room for upgrading.
I'm getting; intelligence 394 (vs 338 on your Zuni set), vit 130 (78), res 146 (143), life 12% (0), as 8% (6%), CC 5.5% (4%), CD 0 (34%), avg dmg 32 (0), armor 519 (331) and of course I don't have the elemental damage but for the price of your pox you could do considerably better then your current setup.
A shape shifting elite would be fun, like it can change or disguise itself as something else. Imagine running up to a gob or treasure chest then it changes into an elite.
I'd also like to see unique mobs be much harder, even harder then single elites. Right now their kinda a joke, don't even feel like killing them most the time.
^^ I don't disagree that CM wiz can be built rather cheaply, it's a lot like barbs and getting the mechanics of the build working doenst take a lot of gold. I've seen CM wizards in mp8+ pub games with under 60k dps so i know they can servive, how much help they are is dubious with that kind of dps deficiency.
But I don't disagree with you just maybe interpret resonable killing speed differently, to me resonable it close to max efficiency when farming solo, so under 10 seconds for elite packs and chain reaction or storm armor should 1shot weaker mobs. Your not going to do that on mp3-4 with 60k dps.
Agree with you about CM wiz being cheaper to gear for high mp's though, the steepest jump is in the mid gear range from my experience when you go from low 5mil range in each slot to 50-100 mil.
Not the most original ideas but id like to see something like a pair of gloves that increases cc by 1% with each mob killed till 100% and then is resets. Or a wiz OH with 0.25 to weapon attack speed which would open up a huge amount of weapon choices.
Been thinking it might be fun to do a full inferno clear, thinking mp6 a1 all the way to diablo. It would take a few hours so I will probably put this off till the weekend, if anyone's up to join please post your btag here and the time you will be on this weekend.
I couple of conditions.
- similarly geared as myself, ehp and dps (I'm 430kehp and 160k unbuffed dps), glass cannon DH's are ok if your skilled and have good dps.
- I'm a CM wiz so pleeeeaaaaasssseeee don't use knock back skills, I sometimes run into monks (who I love playing with as a class btw) that use some skill that keeps throwing and scattering mobs everywhere and it sucks seriously.
- Stick together! Sprinting off, sitting in town crafting or whatever, not cool.
I agree that there's a lot of similarities between the build mechanics, both rely on secondary skills to proc resource generation and also mitigate damage through a constant stream of incoming life from those same skills. If a ww barb or cm wiz stop's they die.
I played barb from a couple weeks after release till December (up to p75) then sold him for 1.5 bil and rolled a CM wiz (now p57) IMO barbs are easier and cheaper to build initially and more effective because their gearing is more linear but as you progress to higher mp it becomes increasingly harder and expensive to be effective. 25 mil is enough to build a solid mp1 barb, figure doubling that for each mp. There might be people who are going to disagree with me here but when I say effective I don't mean dance around in mp10 molten pools for an hour without dying, I mean being able to kill stuff at an acceptable speed and contributing in groups. This is the tricky part of both these builds, invulnerability comes at a relatively cheap price but dps doesn't.
As for CM wiz, there's no point in building an mp1 cm wiz, your better off going archon so if your building one you really gearing for mp3-4 which means the cost of entry is higher 100+ million. But since a CM wiz effective dps is much higher then a barbs moving to higher mp lvl's is easier. When I hit 150k unbuffed dps on my wiz I could basically run through mp5 without stopping for my barb it wasn't till I hit 200k unbuffed that I saw similar results. And this is where I think CM wiz wins out, with a barb you buff skills br+ks+wrath (if not on cooldown) then stack skills sprint+ww or use hota for single targets, with wiz your stacking ww+cr+shards+sa and using bone chill+cold blooded+possible magic weapon to buff dmg. There's simply more skills doing more dmg and everythings stunlocked so your effective dps is much higher, especially against multiple targets.
The downside of CM wiz is your spamming skills constantly, 123,123,123 which can get tiring, also once you reach a certain gear lvl gearing choices get very limited and hard to find. I've been looking for an ammy upgrade for a month for example.
For me mp9-10 is the best even though it takes much longer to kill mobs, but playing CM wiz on high mp is tiring so I prefer mp7-8.
You don't need to 1shot mobs to be efficient, your kill speed just needs to outpace the exp bonus. You also got to consider that part of the run is dead time where your not in combat and killing mobs and regardless of the mp lvl this time always stays the same, say its 30% of a 10 min mp0 run for arguments sake. that's 3 min a run or 18 min an hour on mp0, on mp10 you might only do 2 runs which would be 6 min an hour. So just because your going slower doesn't necessarily mean your going too slow. Ultimately you just need to time each run and figure out what works best for you.
Agree with Jaetch. Played ww barb for about 500 hours and the build can get unbalanced if you stack too much damage before the rest of your gear is ready for it. You want mobs to stay alive long enough for your nado's to proc fury otherwise your walking around fury starved. I play CMWW now and play style aside there's a lot of similarities in the way the builds work, IAS and CC are mandatory stats for the builds to work correctly. If you just wanted to stack huge CC/CD it's not that hard, what's hard is balancing dps with other stats to increase you effective dps, and it should be IMO.
Please tell me what you think these are worth. I originally paid over 100 mil for them because I wanted the MS and pickup radius but thinking of selling them. Been checking the auction but nothing has come up with these stats.
Stats are;
335 - armor
55 - Str
245 - int
80 - All res
10% - life
12% - MS
7 - Yards PU
10% - cold reduction
You can see them in my profile bnet - Richtko#1182
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I would say your biggest problem is your armor/LoH, I run SNS in a mp10 group with a couple cyclone monks with a 4574-armor/47k-life/766-Res/1121-LOH/2.76-AS and I'm still not satisfied with my survivability. You have nice resist but 3372 armor is much too low and I assume that's why your using crystal shell and not shards. Easy partial solution would be to replace your BT pants with a pair with 800+ armor. for the LOH I'd start crafting ammy's, I'm over a 1000 crafts now and have made about 12 that are good (no trifecta yet...) the one I'm currently wearing gives me the best balance for high mp so far.
I also agree with those suggesting IC+rare ring over the Zuni set, at your amount of vit the 12% life bonus on IC's will give you more life then the vit on your Zuni's and it's fairly cheap to find a 245+ int pair that when socketed will completely replace the int you get from the set bonus, you can also get armor and vit rolls.
If you look at the IC+rare ring in currently wearing (http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/richtko-1182/EXLAND/19256100#) which there still has of room for upgrading.
I'm getting; intelligence 394 (vs 338 on your Zuni set), vit 130 (78), res 146 (143), life 12% (0), as 8% (6%), CC 5.5% (4%), CD 0 (34%), avg dmg 32 (0), armor 519 (331) and of course I don't have the elemental damage but for the price of your pox you could do considerably better then your current setup.
Nice wand btw!
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I'd also like to see unique mobs be much harder, even harder then single elites. Right now their kinda a joke, don't even feel like killing them most the time.
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Edit - got a 飲み会 after work so wont be online for about 10hr's
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Grievous Emblem
71 strength
325 intelligence
29 lightning res
10% life
62% cd
10% cc
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But I don't disagree with you just maybe interpret resonable killing speed differently, to me resonable it close to max efficiency when farming solo, so under 10 seconds for elite packs and chain reaction or storm armor should 1shot weaker mobs. Your not going to do that on mp3-4 with 60k dps.
Agree with you about CM wiz being cheaper to gear for high mp's though, the steepest jump is in the mid gear range from my experience when you go from low 5mil range in each slot to 50-100 mil.
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If not (its not worth it IMO) sell that Nats and buy a nice IAS litany!
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I couple of conditions.
- similarly geared as myself, ehp and dps (I'm 430kehp and 160k unbuffed dps), glass cannon DH's are ok if your skilled and have good dps.
- I'm a CM wiz so pleeeeaaaaasssseeee don't use knock back skills, I sometimes run into monks (who I love playing with as a class btw) that use some skill that keeps throwing and scattering mobs everywhere and it sucks seriously.
- Stick together! Sprinting off, sitting in town crafting or whatever, not cool.
Cheers
Richtko#1182
Edit, this is the US server.
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I played barb from a couple weeks after release till December (up to p75) then sold him for 1.5 bil and rolled a CM wiz (now p57) IMO barbs are easier and cheaper to build initially and more effective because their gearing is more linear but as you progress to higher mp it becomes increasingly harder and expensive to be effective. 25 mil is enough to build a solid mp1 barb, figure doubling that for each mp. There might be people who are going to disagree with me here but when I say effective I don't mean dance around in mp10 molten pools for an hour without dying, I mean being able to kill stuff at an acceptable speed and contributing in groups. This is the tricky part of both these builds, invulnerability comes at a relatively cheap price but dps doesn't.
As for CM wiz, there's no point in building an mp1 cm wiz, your better off going archon so if your building one you really gearing for mp3-4 which means the cost of entry is higher 100+ million. But since a CM wiz effective dps is much higher then a barbs moving to higher mp lvl's is easier. When I hit 150k unbuffed dps on my wiz I could basically run through mp5 without stopping for my barb it wasn't till I hit 200k unbuffed that I saw similar results. And this is where I think CM wiz wins out, with a barb you buff skills br+ks+wrath (if not on cooldown) then stack skills sprint+ww or use hota for single targets, with wiz your stacking ww+cr+shards+sa and using bone chill+cold blooded+possible magic weapon to buff dmg. There's simply more skills doing more dmg and everythings stunlocked so your effective dps is much higher, especially against multiple targets.
The downside of CM wiz is your spamming skills constantly, 123,123,123 which can get tiring, also once you reach a certain gear lvl gearing choices get very limited and hard to find. I've been looking for an ammy upgrade for a month for example.
Anyways that's my 2c
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You don't need to 1shot mobs to be efficient, your kill speed just needs to outpace the exp bonus. You also got to consider that part of the run is dead time where your not in combat and killing mobs and regardless of the mp lvl this time always stays the same, say its 30% of a 10 min mp0 run for arguments sake. that's 3 min a run or 18 min an hour on mp0, on mp10 you might only do 2 runs which would be 6 min an hour. So just because your going slower doesn't necessarily mean your going too slow. Ultimately you just need to time each run and figure out what works best for you.
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Stats are;
335 - armor
55 - Str
245 - int
80 - All res
10% - life
12% - MS
7 - Yards PU
10% - cold reduction
You can see them in my profile bnet - Richtko#1182
Thx