To be honest the pvp modes/challenges stuff could come in via patches (not late ones though), as long as they have a few modes available at release imo.
Should have just left it like diablo 2. If you wanna fight, do it outside of town, and if you die go pick up your body. The diablo universe does not need arenas and mini games.
I like Conax's points, one big thing that ive heard is that Blizzard is trying not to draw players away from PVE but in order to get gear and make your way to the top if they had a better PVP system is to PVE and get the best gear because its not like WoW where you do bgs and get just the PvP specific gear you need the PVE gear.
Sixen and Force, thanks for being there for this community. At the moment what blizzard has implemented for PvP is just crap. There is no way to put it in a constructive critical manner. Whatever you guys decide to do to make PvP a bigger and more awsome part of D3, i'm riding your train.
Lets write a petition! givf competetiveness to D3, otherwise PvP aint PvP. Ty DF.
the arena system is already a huge thing for pvp that no other diablo game has had. the have a matchmaking system which will pit you against players of equal skillXgear. You already have competitive pvp.
Blizzard could do nothing more and there would be more, competitive pvp features than in both of the previous diablo games combined. they even have an alternatve set of balance-able figures so that once pvp gets settled, they can make adjustments to it separately from pve abilities.
what more do you want? leagues? that can be community driven, like it was in d2 (and as mentioned above, it already has more support). I don't know if they've said one way or another, but as long as you can make a custom pvp match against another team, blizzard has already given the tools to the pvp community to do whatever they would like with pvp.
If all you want is custom match-making capability, then petition for that, and stop complaining about how "PVP MAED D@ LAST THIS LONG!!@#!!!" (i haven't read that from you, but its a common argument, that i think doesn't hold water)
d2 pvp was crap. it was an afterthought. d3 has pvp as an actually balancable medium. no pvp will be meaningful until max level anyway. including pvp features at launch will just delay the game.
**incoming hyperbole**
I would rather kill any children or pets you may have than allow pvp features to delay the release of this game by 1 minute more than it already has.
**/end hyperbole**
Sixen and Force, thanks for being there for this community. At the moment what blizzard has implemented for PvP is just crap. There is no way to put it in a constructive critical manner. Whatever you guys decide to do to make PvP a bigger and more awsome part of D3, i'm riding your train.
Lets write a petition! givf competetiveness to D3, otherwise PvP aint PvP. Ty DF.
the arena system is already a huge thing for pvp that no other diablo game has had. the have a matchmaking system which will pit you against players of equal skillXgear. You already have competitive pvp.
Blizzard could do nothing more and there would be more, competitive pvp features than in both of the previous diablo games combined. they even have an alternatve set of balance-able figures so that once pvp gets settled, they can make adjustments to it separately from pve abilities.
what more do you want? leagues? that can be community driven, like it was in d2 (and as mentioned above, it already has more support). I don't know if they've said one way or another, but as long as you can make a custom pvp match against another team, blizzard has already given the tools to the pvp community to do whatever they would like with pvp.
If all you want is custom match-making capability, then petition for that, and stop complaining about how "PVP MAED D@ LAST THIS LONG!!@#!!!" (i haven't read that from you, but its a common argument, that i think doesn't hold water)
d2 pvp was crap. it was an afterthought. d3 has pvp as an actually balancable medium. no pvp will be meaningful until max level anyway. including pvp features at launch will just delay the game.
**incoming hyperbole**
I would rather kill any children or pets you may have than allow pvp features to delay the release of this game by 1 minute more than it already has.
**/end hyperbole**
D2 PvP wasn't crap, you were just ill informed or out of the loop, because most PvP communities were private.
"the arena system is already a huge thing for pvp that no other diablo game has had. the have a matchmaking system which will pit you against players of equal skillXgear. You already have competitive pvp."
Arenas in D3 could be a great idea, but in there current state they are hurting us. They limited to 1 mode of style limited to their matchmaking system.
Last man standing and custom matchmaking are 2 significant things that are required for the sake of the PvP community.
Last man standing and custom matchmaking are 2 significant things that are required for the sake of the PvP community.
Well LMS is not exaxctly required, but it makes things so much complicated. You can easily confess that once dead during duelling, you may not participate anymore in given "round". And play it like it was LMS.
Thank you Omega for making that point even more clear. PantheraOca obviously dsnt see that there is nothing at all competetive with the current arena system they're using. I've been to repetetive in my posts and im sorry for that.
If they dont fix their shit i probably wont buy the game and.. i can say thats pretty heavy coming from me. Diablo is one of the very few things i have to look forward to in my sorry life. Atleast im being honest about it^^
When I say pvp was crap, i mean that the game was not designed for it, not that there wasn't good gameplay to be had.
Re: the current arena game-type.
There is no real difference between the current system and a series of last man standing matches. If you're better than the other team you will kill them more than they will kill you.
Is football, baseball, or pretty much any other sport not competitive because once one team scores a point (getting a kill) the game keeps going?
Since you are obviously so pro Conax, lets say that we fought in the arena and you killed me 10 times in a match and i got you 2 times. Does that not show you won?
Lets say it were close, and you killed me 6 times and i killed you 5. I'm sure in this case there would be a lot of "oooh, he nailed him" and "i cannot believe he countered that!" in this situation than in the first. This would be a more competitive match than the first.
How does the number of kills needed to determine a victor make the game less competitive? A victor still needs to be decided. You will need to be better than your opponents to kill them (assuming equal power) more often than they kill you.
(the RMAH isn't going to make nubs win at pvp, you need a certain level of gear to expect to compete, there is a cap on the power level of the gear, the RMAH is just going to make the potential pool of adequately geared pvpers larger, which gives you a healthier competitive environment)
How interesting that people are so into the pvp, in my Diablo 2 experience I really never got into it, it just seemed pointless to me. Its possible I'll participate in a bit in D3 seeing as it can expand your banner and possibly unlock some achievements.
It seems like pvp battles might take a bit longer than the ones I saw/rarely participated in back in the day. But I wasn't really aware that it was such a big thing in 2 that people are making a ruckus over now.
I think of it more of a supplement to the actual game than something important?
Instead of being the end game jewel it was for Diablo 2, it is now simply another way to test your character with friends.
This comment I don't get, and I think it's implicit in a number of people's complaints. Just how much effort did you think D2 put into PvP? They stuck in a broad damage divider, made players immune to AI curses that had no effect on them anyway, and put a custom scaler on thorns. That's it. No other effort put into balancing D2. Lets see what D3 offers?
- Some kind of matchmaking based on performance, other than "duelz join now"
- Some kind of progression in achivements/titles, other than worthless gold and ears people never see.
- Automatic limits on consumeable use, not "on your honor no pots"
- Support for team games, instead of hostile "team" players killing each other with friendly fire. (Not that people ever seemed to do anything but duels)
- Adjustment of a wide number of skills on CC durations, possibly damage and range also
- Completely equipment-based build making swap between PvP/PvE setups effortless
Other than a convenient way to duel your friends (would be nice) and the ability to PK (not nice), I don't see how anyone can view D3 PvP as lesser than D2. It's not the truly competitive e-sport it might have been, but then D2 never was either, and with D3 they really are at least throwing PvP a bone that D2 never had.
Instead of being the end game jewel it was for Diablo 2-
I simply meant PvP in Diablo 3 isn't being developed to drive Diablo 3's endgame. The fact stands that through the lack of PvP support in Diablo 2, PvP is a main reason, if not the main reason the game has remained so popular. I understand how you could have thought I was talking about design effort, to which Diablo 2 obviously had almost none regarding PvP. Through this all Diablo 2's PvP was the majority of players endgame, missing feature sets and all. Diablo 3's PvP isn't being developed with this endgame supporting role in mind, (Again, not saying D2's PvP was) but instead to give players another means to use their characters. If players use PvP as their endgame challenge of choice great, but as stated by Blizz they have plans for PvE endgame which should keep players satisfied in the PvE world.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I simply meant PvP in Diablo 3 isn't being developed to drive Diablo 3's endgame. The fact stands that through the lack of PvP support in Diablo 2, PvP is a main reason, if not the main reason the game has remained so popular. I understand how you could have thought I was talking about design effort, to which Diablo 2 obviously had almost none regarding PvP. Through this all Diablo 2's PvP was the majority of players endgame, missing feature sets and all. Diablo 3's PvP isn't being developed with this endgame supporting role in mind, (Again, not saying D2's PvP was) but instead to give players another means to use their characters. If players use PvP as their endgame challenge of choice great, but as stated by Blizz they have plans for PvE endgame which should keep players satisfied in the PvE world.
I'm curious as to the numbers of people who played d2 compared to those that "seriously" pvp'd.
D2 wasn't really designed with an "endgame" in mind for pve or pvp. By that I mean, there was only gearing up, nothing to do once geared up.
Between achievements and inferno and banners, D3 will be designed with an endgame in mind for pve certainly.
If the matchmaking system remotely works, there will be an endgame for pvp in constantly fighting opponents of your skill level.
If they made the MMR public, would that satisfy the need for "competition"?
2. PKing other players without their consent (or running for your life).
I do not understand where the mentality that PKing is "not nice" originated, but you see a clear message coming from the D3 Devs that PKing is only fun for one side, which is untrue; the game of cat and mouse is exhilarating for both parties, especially when the prey has alternate characters to switch to and become the hunter on.
Without the ability to casually fight other players, or to hunt other players for sport, what is the point of getting stronger? So we can team up to fight other teams?
People around my age buying Diablo III will remember Diablo II and after a few hours of gameplay will be disappointed that there is nothing unpredicted, nothing dangerous - just mellow co-op dungeon crawling.
Unpredictability, and the possibility of having an unfun time, is what makes having fun fun
Ok, so I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
I did not find your "2." fun. It was a hassle. I do not want to deal with that shit. If I want to deal with pvp, I'll queue up for a match. I don't want to have my fun (yes, you can have fun pve) impeded upon because someone thinks it would be fun to pick on the low level or non-pvp-geared character.
PKing is not nice. It's not something they agreed to do. If you do that to someone else, you're imposing yourself on them. That is generally considered bad form.
If someone agrees to that playstyle, that's fine. I won't be.
If not being able to PK people makes playing the game pointless for you, I can't help you. And I don't want to.
You don't know that there will be nothing unpredictable or dangerous from the pve game.
I disagree with your view on the necessity of suffering, but that doesn't matter.
Players with your gaming preference can be accommodated with the choice of choosing to join friendly games where there is no hostile option.
PVE is fun for me as well, but eventually I end up grinding for the gamble of loot to drop, doing that for hours on end - the unexpected appearance of a griefer breaks up the monotony (or switching to a duel game, though I am not sure a duel game could even work with a four person game room cap)(perhaps a dueler chat room, where duelers then set up their own games to duel in).
If the business model for Diii, necessary to keep new content flowing, is based solely on the real money auction house fees, I can see why they would be reluctant to give us anything to do other than grind items to sell on the RMAH - but if they want to make a game that accommodates fans of the previous game, and of Blizzard generally, they should at least try to give us a choice in how we play with and against each other.
We can fight each other in Diablo II, Warcraft, Starcraft, and in World of Warcraft, but all of a sudden, in Diablo III, we have to play cooperatively with absolutely no competition from clicking/rolling on drops or from engaging in hostile combat (unless we get friends and join a mini game)?
The default game style is my gaming preference. Your preference is accommodated by joining a random arena game, i'm almost certain you won't need to make a team to join the MM queue.
D2 was monotonous as hell. D3 will have more variety in mob behavior and capability, not to mention boss fights.
You want pvp in the pve. I am fairly certain you are not in the majority in that. I think most PvPers want their pvp separate from the pve, and any strict PvEers want no pvp in their pve.
@conax, u need to stop being so anal and relax. learn to enjoy things. everyone that wants to play d2 can play d2 but i want to play something new. thats why i am getting d3. d3 is better in every way to d2. people are so stuck in their ways its embarrassing.
@Conax Pretty sure they said that the win/loss ratio is hidden, so just the fact that you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Or if not that, at least this: the more you PvP (and I assume win) the harder opponents you will be up against. Therefore you can PvP for fun and fight tougher players as you go, giving you more of a challenge. Also, seeing how the current no-builds are going, your strategies against players is going to be constantly changing because X player might love using XX skill but Y player uses YY skill. It won't be the same game everytime. Also Jay already stated a thousand times it isn't an e-sport.
Good joke.
the arena system is already a huge thing for pvp that no other diablo game has had. the have a matchmaking system which will pit you against players of equal skillXgear. You already have competitive pvp.
Blizzard could do nothing more and there would be more, competitive pvp features than in both of the previous diablo games combined. they even have an alternatve set of balance-able figures so that once pvp gets settled, they can make adjustments to it separately from pve abilities.
what more do you want? leagues? that can be community driven, like it was in d2 (and as mentioned above, it already has more support). I don't know if they've said one way or another, but as long as you can make a custom pvp match against another team, blizzard has already given the tools to the pvp community to do whatever they would like with pvp.
If all you want is custom match-making capability, then petition for that, and stop complaining about how "PVP MAED D@ LAST THIS LONG!!@#!!!" (i haven't read that from you, but its a common argument, that i think doesn't hold water)
d2 pvp was crap. it was an afterthought. d3 has pvp as an actually balancable medium. no pvp will be meaningful until max level anyway. including pvp features at launch will just delay the game.
**incoming hyperbole**
I would rather kill any children or pets you may have than allow pvp features to delay the release of this game by 1 minute more than it already has.
**/end hyperbole**
D2 PvP wasn't crap, you were just ill informed or out of the loop, because most PvP communities were private.
"the arena system is already a huge thing for pvp that no other diablo game has had. the have a matchmaking system which will pit you against players of equal skillXgear. You already have competitive pvp."
Arenas in D3 could be a great idea, but in there current state they are hurting us. They limited to 1 mode of style limited to their matchmaking system.
Last man standing and custom matchmaking are 2 significant things that are required for the sake of the PvP community.
Well LMS is not exaxctly required, but it makes things so much complicated. You can easily confess that once dead during duelling, you may not participate anymore in given "round". And play it like it was LMS.
When I say pvp was crap, i mean that the game was not designed for it, not that there wasn't good gameplay to be had.
Re: the current arena game-type.
There is no real difference between the current system and a series of last man standing matches. If you're better than the other team you will kill them more than they will kill you.
Is football, baseball, or pretty much any other sport not competitive because once one team scores a point (getting a kill) the game keeps going?
Since you are obviously so pro Conax, lets say that we fought in the arena and you killed me 10 times in a match and i got you 2 times. Does that not show you won?
Lets say it were close, and you killed me 6 times and i killed you 5. I'm sure in this case there would be a lot of "oooh, he nailed him" and "i cannot believe he countered that!" in this situation than in the first. This would be a more competitive match than the first.
How does the number of kills needed to determine a victor make the game less competitive? A victor still needs to be decided. You will need to be better than your opponents to kill them (assuming equal power) more often than they kill you.
(the RMAH isn't going to make nubs win at pvp, you need a certain level of gear to expect to compete, there is a cap on the power level of the gear, the RMAH is just going to make the potential pool of adequately geared pvpers larger, which gives you a healthier competitive environment)
It seems like pvp battles might take a bit longer than the ones I saw/rarely participated in back in the day. But I wasn't really aware that it was such a big thing in 2 that people are making a ruckus over now.
I think of it more of a supplement to the actual game than something important?
This comment I don't get, and I think it's implicit in a number of people's complaints. Just how much effort did you think D2 put into PvP? They stuck in a broad damage divider, made players immune to AI curses that had no effect on them anyway, and put a custom scaler on thorns. That's it. No other effort put into balancing D2. Lets see what D3 offers?
- Some kind of matchmaking based on performance, other than "duelz join now"
- Some kind of progression in achivements/titles, other than worthless gold and ears people never see.
- Automatic limits on consumeable use, not "on your honor no pots"
- Support for team games, instead of hostile "team" players killing each other with friendly fire. (Not that people ever seemed to do anything but duels)
- Adjustment of a wide number of skills on CC durations, possibly damage and range also
- Completely equipment-based build making swap between PvP/PvE setups effortless
Other than a convenient way to duel your friends (would be nice) and the ability to PK (not nice), I don't see how anyone can view D3 PvP as lesser than D2. It's not the truly competitive e-sport it might have been, but then D2 never was either, and with D3 they really are at least throwing PvP a bone that D2 never had.
I believe you misunderstood my statement.
I simply meant PvP in Diablo 3 isn't being developed to drive Diablo 3's endgame. The fact stands that through the lack of PvP support in Diablo 2, PvP is a main reason, if not the main reason the game has remained so popular. I understand how you could have thought I was talking about design effort, to which Diablo 2 obviously had almost none regarding PvP. Through this all Diablo 2's PvP was the majority of players endgame, missing feature sets and all. Diablo 3's PvP isn't being developed with this endgame supporting role in mind, (Again, not saying D2's PvP was) but instead to give players another means to use their characters. If players use PvP as their endgame challenge of choice great, but as stated by Blizz they have plans for PvE endgame which should keep players satisfied in the PvE world.
Thank you Cherub, means a lot!
I'm curious as to the numbers of people who played d2 compared to those that "seriously" pvp'd.
D2 wasn't really designed with an "endgame" in mind for pve or pvp. By that I mean, there was only gearing up, nothing to do once geared up.
Between achievements and inferno and banners, D3 will be designed with an endgame in mind for pve certainly.
If the matchmaking system remotely works, there will be an endgame for pvp in constantly fighting opponents of your skill level.
If they made the MMR public, would that satisfy the need for "competition"?
Ok, so I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
I did not find your "2." fun. It was a hassle. I do not want to deal with that shit. If I want to deal with pvp, I'll queue up for a match. I don't want to have my fun (yes, you can have fun pve) impeded upon because someone thinks it would be fun to pick on the low level or non-pvp-geared character.
PKing is not nice. It's not something they agreed to do. If you do that to someone else, you're imposing yourself on them. That is generally considered bad form.
If someone agrees to that playstyle, that's fine. I won't be.
If not being able to PK people makes playing the game pointless for you, I can't help you. And I don't want to.
You don't know that there will be nothing unpredictable or dangerous from the pve game.
You don't need to have to suffer to have fun.
The default game style is my gaming preference. Your preference is accommodated by joining a random arena game, i'm almost certain you won't need to make a team to join the MM queue.
D2 was monotonous as hell. D3 will have more variety in mob behavior and capability, not to mention boss fights.
You want pvp in the pve. I am fairly certain you are not in the majority in that. I think most PvPers want their pvp separate from the pve, and any strict PvEers want no pvp in their pve.