I believe we all play RPGs to include ourselves in a story. Often time a dungeon master for DnD will also be a writer, or an avid WoW fan will also be a diehard Tolkien follower. I myself am a reader and writer, although the fantasy genre stays out of my bookshelves and my notepads. Of course I understand this is not always the case, but there must be something in the story that attracts each of us, or else that mind is easily amused by pushing buttons and in reaction having pretty lights or sounds appear (With that as a possibility, we should all cling to the hope of the opposite). The Diablo atmosphere and story has long been the meat between hacking and slashing. It overshadows all other features and components in the original, and continues wonderfully in it’s sequel. The point of all this though, is that in each story there are characters and we can only play one. Character development makes the difference between the plight of a plain with statues, and an emotional center for flesh and blood in the acts. The living, breathing souls create the story and are affected by everything that happens. It should be more real to them than anyone, real enough to them to make us believe. When we are without a doubt compelled to fight for the world of sanctuary, we are experiencing more than a game and what I believe Blizzard, above any other company, is capable of.
The characters I feel need the most attention are the non-playable ones. The NPCs in the Diablo series should never be just vessels to guide us to the next quest, for this war spans realms, not just towns. We could all feel the grief and the concern for the NPCs in the original, but that was relatively simple to do with the span of the troubles and the known story at that time. We interacted, and hearing about the nightmares of the tavern owner, or the drunken memories of Farnham struck a certain point home to the player. After that lone warrior, filled with boiling blood struck the soulstone into himself, the world of sanctuary and everyone inside should have grown much, much more complex.
Diablo II served it’s purpose, and the storyline fit perfectly, don’t get me wrong. There are no characters however, save Deckard Cain (due to his constant presence) that I can recall. The languid, careless tone of the NPCs and the small, bare actions taken by them to preserve they’re own existence was equivalent to a blush of white against the face of putrid demise. Reactions should show from the quests we complete, and people should be swayed by the guardians above or the pike-wielding devils below. Our actions should inspire NPCs to take up arms in a fight that won’t end after they die, and at least be in a state of awareness and defensive posture. During my single player runs, I often make rounds to each character in the act to hear what they say about the latest achievement or progress I’ve made, and little sticks to mind. The denizens of Harrogath were the most interactive, but that isn’t saying much. In this next Diablo whenever it comes, I want to know that all is at stake not by the color of the goat warrior coming at me, but by the pressure I feel racing even after I’ve stepped through a TP back home. Diablo needs to stop being a franchise, and grow into the world it’s being called to, by the background lore, the books, and the players.
I agree that it would be nice to have more "emotional investment" made by the NPCs, but...
I think that the effect of interacting with the NPCs upon one's capacity to enjoy the game depends on how well-developed your ability is to inject yourself into a story; your ability, and desire, to role-play.
You referred to the D2 NPCs not having much of an impact upon you. I, on the other hand, while having agreed that more would be better, had no problem being inspired by my interactions with them.
Charsi laments over a desire to tag along that she can't fulfuill because of her commitment to the Encampment... Hellz, yeah! Would love to have ya, girl! But I understand why you can't.
Akara states that our success is a debt the Rogues can never repay... Thank you, Mistress. That really means a lot...
Kashya finally melts and calls you "Friend..." Hehe *sniffle* I knew I'd win you over, eventually! *brotherly headlock/noogie*
And by Act IV, with the "Hail to you, Champion..." haHA! They like me! They really like me!
I get immersed in the story. It works, if you let it. I guess that's why I don't do multi-player very often, or have never had a level 90+ character -- I don't get in there just to lay waste to my mouse-button and get better gear than the next guy.
I'm there to be in the moment, as part of the story.
Diablo II served it’s purpose, and the storyline fit perfectly, don’t get me wrong. There are no characters however, save Deckard Cain (due to his constant presence) that I can recall. The languid, careless tone of the NPCs and the small, bare actions taken by them to preserve they’re own existence was equivalent to a blush of white against the face of putrid demise. Reactions should show from the quests we complete, and people should be swayed by the guardians above or the pike-wielding devils below. Our actions should inspire NPCs to take up arms in a fight that won’t end after they die, and at least be in a state of awareness and defensive posture. During my single player runs, I often make rounds to each character in the act to hear what they say about the latest achievement or progress I’ve made, and little sticks to mind. The denizens of Harrogath were the most interactive, but that isn’t saying much. In this next Diablo whenever it comes, I want to know that all is at stake not by the color of the goat warrior coming at me, but by the pressure I feel racing even after I’ve stepped through a TP back home. Diablo needs to stop being a franchise, and grow into the world it’s being called to, by the background lore, the books, and the players.
Interesting point. I haven't played Diablo I seriously, so I cannpt really comment on that part. But I do remember all NPC, and I don't think that's because of the multiple reruns of the game that I've done. To me, they were quite memorable, but perhaps as you say not very important. They were just characters you interacted with and listened to, but that was that.
To a large degree I think this comes from D2s segregated design. Everything in the first game too place in one town, with very few NPCs. That inevitably forces you to remember them, while in D2 you could easily brease through Act 1 without ever even talking to Gheed.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Baldur's Gate II would be impossible to finish without talking to the over whelming large majority of NPCs you came across. There is only one way to raise the 20,000gp you need to go to chapter 3. How do you do that? go do some quests. Who gives you quests? NPCs do. Many of the NPCs give you a small quest first, then send you on much larger chains, some of which are infact story related, or you cannot access the next chapter without finishing them.
I don't know how vital most of the WOW NPCs are to that story.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
Thank you for the feedback so far. What I wrote was understandably dependent on the indivdual, but I'm glad we can all agree on certain points. I admit what I want to see in the next installment is a tad hard for me to describe accurately. No matter what happens, D3 will be successful.
I don't know how vital most of the WOW NPCs are to that story.
With some exceptions, most notably the "Rescue the King" questline in Dustwallow marsh, it doesn't really come into play until end-game raiding.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
Thank you for the feedback so far. What I wrote was understandably dependent on the indivdual, but I'm glad we can all agree on certain points. I admit what I want to see in the next installment is a tad hard for me to describe accurately. No matter what happens, D3 will be successful.
At least for me, it's hard to put any energy into this kind of speculation when you know there's solid material for analyze just around the corner
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
With some exceptions, most notably the "Rescue the King" questline in Dustwallow marsh, it doesn't really come into play until end-game raiding.
At least for me, it's hard to put any energy into this kind of speculation when you know there's solid material for analyze just around the corner
I may be misreading your sentence, but do you mean to imply there is solid evidence and reason for someone to get a certain level of atmospheric satisfaction by way of involvement in the current gameplay/storyline bond?
Baldur's Gate II would be impossible to finish without talking to the over whelming large majority of NPCs you came across. There is only one way to raise the 20,000gp you need to go to chapter 3. How do you do that? go do some quests. Who gives you quests? NPCs do. Many of the NPCs give you a small quest first, then send you on much larger chains, some of which are infact story related, or you cannot access the next chapter without finishing them.
I don't know how vital most of the WOW NPCs are to that story.
My point was not how important NPCs are to the progression of the game in straight terms of start to finish, but they're level of significance to the immersion of the player to the world and story of Diablo.
My point was not how important NPCs are to the progression of the game in straight terms of start to finish, but they're level of significance to the immersion of the player to the world and story of Diablo.
That is part of my point too. If you're not forced to talk to NPCs they are hardly going to leave an impression on you, nor are you likely to get to know them. Where as if in order to finish the game you have to talk to NPCs, you will get to to know them better, understand their pains, where they come from? have then seen things you have? do they share your pain too?
How many here actually talk to Gheed and Natalya? I imagine a fair few of you talk to Cain.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
The Diablo atmosphere and story has long been the meat between hacking and slashing. It overshadows all other features and components in the original, and continues wonderfully in it’s sequel. The point of all this though, is that in each story there are characters and we can only play one. Character development makes the difference between the plight of a plain with statues, and an emotional center for flesh and blood in the acts. The living, breathing souls create the story and are affected by everything that happens. It should be more real to them than anyone, real enough to them to make us believe.
Part of that believing for me is really feeling that there are things at stake, that I could lose, and there would terrible consequences for failing.
One thing that makes the danger feel all the more real realizing the enemy. Understanding that these demons cannot be reasoned with, they have no empathy for anything, you cannot stall them. But that is about as far as I can understand the enemy in the first Diablo game. Everything else is trying to comprehend the mind of a demon who is the antithesis of everything that seems normal to me. We catch disturbing glimpses of the psyche even during the brief moments of dialogue with Snotspill, Gharbad, and Zhar.
What we also gradually start to realize is that while all of this evil we are encountering may seem for a moment like an isolated and contained incident within a small town, it is in fact a struggle bigger than the mortal world, beyond mortal realm. And the more we learn about the Sin War, we learn how all the conflict taking place on Sanctuary is akin to a proxy war between Heaven and Hell. Except for that the winner of that particular war may be the winner of the overall Great Conflict.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
The characters I feel need the most attention are the non-playable ones. The NPCs in the Diablo series should never be just vessels to guide us to the next quest, for this war spans realms, not just towns. We could all feel the grief and the concern for the NPCs in the original, but that was relatively simple to do with the span of the troubles and the known story at that time. We interacted, and hearing about the nightmares of the tavern owner, or the drunken memories of Farnham struck a certain point home to the player. After that lone warrior, filled with boiling blood struck the soulstone into himself, the world of sanctuary and everyone inside should have grown much, much more complex.
Yes, everything that happens in Diablo is like the tip of the iceberg. But being on the smaller scale that it is, the NPC dialogue stilly really conveys the horrible dread and dismay and morale of the town. And all of this makes playing the game a much richer experience.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
Diablo II served it’s purpose, and the storyline fit perfectly, don’t get me wrong. There are no characters however, save Deckard Cain (due to his constant presence) that I can recall. The languid, careless tone of the NPCs and the small, bare actions taken by them to preserve they’re own existence was equivalent to a blush of white against the face of putrid demise.
Agreed. This could be for a number of reasons though. For one thing, you really get the feeling in Diablo II more than Diablo that time is against you. In the first Diablo, sure, time is always against you. But with Diablo underneath the city, brooding and gradually regaining power, it doesn't feel quite as urgent as he walking the world of Sanctuary looking to free his brothers. But the personalities of the NPCs in Diablo II seem to just reflect what their services are. Not totally, but there isn't much individual history with each one. A lot of what they say and how they act seems consistent with what their professions are. In the first Diablo, the NPCs seemed to act a certain way almost regardless of their profession. At the same time, they were acting as a precarious community, traumatized by their ordeal and barely struggling to survive.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
Reactions should show from the quests we complete
Agreed. But at times, this seems almost too idealistic now for some game developers.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
and people should be swayed by the guardians above or the pike-wielding devils below.
Not necessarily. I've often enjoyed the notion in the Diablo universe that some mortals act completely independent in spite of the High Heavens and Burning Hells.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
Our actions should inspire NPCs to take up arms in a fight that won’t end after they die, and at least be in a state of awareness and defensive posture. During my single player runs, I often make rounds to each character in the act to hear what they say about the latest achievement or progress I’ve made, and little sticks to mind.
You could attribute some of this to mass denial. Like global warming sort of. Some might believe in it, but feel it's better to try and deny or ignore it. It just feels better for some people to downplay a threat. The rest of it I would attribute to the scale of Diablo II. The more NPCs you got, the more difficult it is to properly develop each one's character.
Quote from "USAFNBC" »
The denizens of Harrogath were the most interactive, but that isn’t saying much.
Still was an admirable attempt at a return to form. Act V is the most personal of all acts. The town itself has lots of history relative to the others. And there is this classic native land violated, natives want revenge kind of feel to it. And even the way Cain talks about these fabled warriors in their homelands, you feel like despite being heavily outnumbered by Baal's minions, there is this tenacity and pride in the Barbarians that is fun to connect with and makes the entire endeavor more worth your while.
Well, not all NPCs necessarily need to be that super interactive with the player. You could just made one more special than the other just like Tyrael. Still I agree that there should be more interactions between the player and the NPCs. What about if you could choose the topics you want to talk about with them (besides the quests) like in what we saw from the Starcraft Terran Campaign.
You know what would also be really great, seeing more NPCs in action, like seeing them casting spells or attacking monsters. Oh what about if one NPC suddenly turned against another NPC and then you're force to stop him. I think I'm going to turn nuts only to think about all the possibilities.
Another thing that I think could be a lot more interesting for the interaction between the player and the environment would be to give more personality to each heroes and to the Unique monsters. Having mini-cinematic before fighting demons like Duriel or Andariel a la Devil May Cry would be really sweet :thumbsup:.
Ah, I can't wait for tomorrow announcement, so that we can finally have a better idea of what has been on Blizzard's mind for all these years.
I agree, it would be nice to have NPC's who you got to know and love. You had that a lot more in the original game, with Griswold, Farnam, etc. That said, I think we'll get it. We have Cain (and he must be getting old), and from the pic on the main page of the official website I'd say we can bet on Tyrael. That and who is that chick hanging with Cain in the trailer, who I assume is doing to talking? Then in his journal there's a whole page for Adria (which causes me to speculate far more than I'm going to write down here). I think we have some interresting characters coming.
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I believe we all play RPGs to include ourselves in a story. Often time a dungeon master for DnD will also be a writer, or an avid WoW fan will also be a diehard Tolkien follower. I myself am a reader and writer, although the fantasy genre stays out of my bookshelves and my notepads. Of course I understand this is not always the case, but there must be something in the story that attracts each of us, or else that mind is easily amused by pushing buttons and in reaction having pretty lights or sounds appear (With that as a possibility, we should all cling to the hope of the opposite). The Diablo atmosphere and story has long been the meat between hacking and slashing. It overshadows all other features and components in the original, and continues wonderfully in it’s sequel. The point of all this though, is that in each story there are characters and we can only play one. Character development makes the difference between the plight of a plain with statues, and an emotional center for flesh and blood in the acts. The living, breathing souls create the story and are affected by everything that happens. It should be more real to them than anyone, real enough to them to make us believe. When we are without a doubt compelled to fight for the world of sanctuary, we are experiencing more than a game and what I believe Blizzard, above any other company, is capable of.
The characters I feel need the most attention are the non-playable ones. The NPCs in the Diablo series should never be just vessels to guide us to the next quest, for this war spans realms, not just towns. We could all feel the grief and the concern for the NPCs in the original, but that was relatively simple to do with the span of the troubles and the known story at that time. We interacted, and hearing about the nightmares of the tavern owner, or the drunken memories of Farnham struck a certain point home to the player. After that lone warrior, filled with boiling blood struck the soulstone into himself, the world of sanctuary and everyone inside should have grown much, much more complex.
Diablo II served it’s purpose, and the storyline fit perfectly, don’t get me wrong. There are no characters however, save Deckard Cain (due to his constant presence) that I can recall. The languid, careless tone of the NPCs and the small, bare actions taken by them to preserve they’re own existence was equivalent to a blush of white against the face of putrid demise. Reactions should show from the quests we complete, and people should be swayed by the guardians above or the pike-wielding devils below. Our actions should inspire NPCs to take up arms in a fight that won’t end after they die, and at least be in a state of awareness and defensive posture. During my single player runs, I often make rounds to each character in the act to hear what they say about the latest achievement or progress I’ve made, and little sticks to mind. The denizens of Harrogath were the most interactive, but that isn’t saying much. In this next Diablo whenever it comes, I want to know that all is at stake not by the color of the goat warrior coming at me, but by the pressure I feel racing even after I’ve stepped through a TP back home. Diablo needs to stop being a franchise, and grow into the world it’s being called to, by the background lore, the books, and the players.
I agree that it would be nice to have more "emotional investment" made by the NPCs, but...
I think that the effect of interacting with the NPCs upon one's capacity to enjoy the game depends on how well-developed your ability is to inject yourself into a story; your ability, and desire, to role-play.
You referred to the D2 NPCs not having much of an impact upon you. I, on the other hand, while having agreed that more would be better, had no problem being inspired by my interactions with them.
Charsi laments over a desire to tag along that she can't fulfuill because of her commitment to the Encampment... Hellz, yeah! Would love to have ya, girl! But I understand why you can't.
Akara states that our success is a debt the Rogues can never repay... Thank you, Mistress. That really means a lot...
Kashya finally melts and calls you "Friend..." Hehe *sniffle* I knew I'd win you over, eventually! *brotherly headlock/noogie*
And by Act IV, with the "Hail to you, Champion..." haHA! They like me! They really like me!
I get immersed in the story. It works, if you let it. I guess that's why I don't do multi-player very often, or have never had a level 90+ character -- I don't get in there just to lay waste to my mouse-button and get better gear than the next guy.
I'm there to be in the moment, as part of the story.
To a large degree I think this comes from D2s segregated design. Everything in the first game too place in one town, with very few NPCs. That inevitably forces you to remember them, while in D2 you could easily brease through Act 1 without ever even talking to Gheed.
Baldur's Gate II would be impossible to finish without talking to the over whelming large majority of NPCs you came across. There is only one way to raise the 20,000gp you need to go to chapter 3. How do you do that? go do some quests. Who gives you quests? NPCs do. Many of the NPCs give you a small quest first, then send you on much larger chains, some of which are infact story related, or you cannot access the next chapter without finishing them.
I don't know how vital most of the WOW NPCs are to that story.
At least for me, it's hard to put any energy into this kind of speculation when you know there's solid material for analyze just around the corner
I may be misreading your sentence, but do you mean to imply there is solid evidence and reason for someone to get a certain level of atmospheric satisfaction by way of involvement in the current gameplay/storyline bond?
My point was not how important NPCs are to the progression of the game in straight terms of start to finish, but they're level of significance to the immersion of the player to the world and story of Diablo.
I apologize for the double post.
That is part of my point too. If you're not forced to talk to NPCs they are hardly going to leave an impression on you, nor are you likely to get to know them. Where as if in order to finish the game you have to talk to NPCs, you will get to to know them better, understand their pains, where they come from? have then seen things you have? do they share your pain too?
How many here actually talk to Gheed and Natalya? I imagine a fair few of you talk to Cain.
One thing that makes the danger feel all the more real realizing the enemy. Understanding that these demons cannot be reasoned with, they have no empathy for anything, you cannot stall them. But that is about as far as I can understand the enemy in the first Diablo game. Everything else is trying to comprehend the mind of a demon who is the antithesis of everything that seems normal to me. We catch disturbing glimpses of the psyche even during the brief moments of dialogue with Snotspill, Gharbad, and Zhar.
What we also gradually start to realize is that while all of this evil we are encountering may seem for a moment like an isolated and contained incident within a small town, it is in fact a struggle bigger than the mortal world, beyond mortal realm. And the more we learn about the Sin War, we learn how all the conflict taking place on Sanctuary is akin to a proxy war between Heaven and Hell. Except for that the winner of that particular war may be the winner of the overall Great Conflict.
Yes, everything that happens in Diablo is like the tip of the iceberg. But being on the smaller scale that it is, the NPC dialogue stilly really conveys the horrible dread and dismay and morale of the town. And all of this makes playing the game a much richer experience.
Agreed. This could be for a number of reasons though. For one thing, you really get the feeling in Diablo II more than Diablo that time is against you. In the first Diablo, sure, time is always against you. But with Diablo underneath the city, brooding and gradually regaining power, it doesn't feel quite as urgent as he walking the world of Sanctuary looking to free his brothers. But the personalities of the NPCs in Diablo II seem to just reflect what their services are. Not totally, but there isn't much individual history with each one. A lot of what they say and how they act seems consistent with what their professions are. In the first Diablo, the NPCs seemed to act a certain way almost regardless of their profession. At the same time, they were acting as a precarious community, traumatized by their ordeal and barely struggling to survive.
Agreed. But at times, this seems almost too idealistic now for some game developers.
Not necessarily. I've often enjoyed the notion in the Diablo universe that some mortals act completely independent in spite of the High Heavens and Burning Hells.
You could attribute some of this to mass denial. Like global warming sort of. Some might believe in it, but feel it's better to try and deny or ignore it. It just feels better for some people to downplay a threat. The rest of it I would attribute to the scale of Diablo II. The more NPCs you got, the more difficult it is to properly develop each one's character.
Still was an admirable attempt at a return to form. Act V is the most personal of all acts. The town itself has lots of history relative to the others. And there is this classic native land violated, natives want revenge kind of feel to it. And even the way Cain talks about these fabled warriors in their homelands, you feel like despite being heavily outnumbered by Baal's minions, there is this tenacity and pride in the Barbarians that is fun to connect with and makes the entire endeavor more worth your while.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
You know what would also be really great, seeing more NPCs in action, like seeing them casting spells or attacking monsters. Oh what about if one NPC suddenly turned against another NPC and then you're force to stop him. I think I'm going to turn nuts only to think about all the possibilities.
Another thing that I think could be a lot more interesting for the interaction between the player and the environment would be to give more personality to each heroes and to the Unique monsters. Having mini-cinematic before fighting demons like Duriel or Andariel a la Devil May Cry would be really sweet :thumbsup:.
Ah, I can't wait for tomorrow announcement, so that we can finally have a better idea of what has been on Blizzard's mind for all these years.