So here's the question: - What is your opinion on spending real-life currency on virtual entertainment goods?
Waist of time. I want to find my loot while playing. I have already paid for Diablo 3 and I never liked WoW for the monthly cost. Things that cost extra is something I take a distance from. I just want things I really need in life, and "virtual goods" does not make my life any easier or happier. This is why I do not spend on useless things, both in-game and outside of games.
For me it's not about the subtraction of money from my wallet. It's about the subtraction of the challenge of gearing up.
So here's the question: - What is your opinion on spending real-life currency on virtual entertainment goods?
Waist of time. I want to find my loot while playing. I have already paid for Diablo 3 and I never liked WoW for the monthly cost. Things that cost extra is something I take a distance from. I just want things I really need in life, and "virtual goods" does not make my life any easier or happier. This is why I do not spend on useless things, both in-game and outside of games.
For me it's not about the subtraction of money from my wallet. It's about the subtraction of the challenge of gearing up.
For the sake of Diablo 3 gameplay, you are totally right. As a general note, I do keep my statement as before.
First of all, it's your money, you worked for it. Sounds to me Trail might be young kid hating on the more 'adult' players for beeing able to put money in the game. Anyways... @ the end of the line you choose what to do with your money...
I wouldn't make that assumption. Many old school RPG'ers like myself frown on short-cuts, no matter what your excuse is. I work too, only part time but I own several rental properties that consume much of my time, not to mention being a single father.
No matter what your excuse is... well, there here's my excuse:
I waited for Diablo 3 for years. Then Diablo 3 release date was just exactly at a time where I couldn't play for 3 months. When I started playing mid-September, all my friends with whom I played Diablo 1+2 for 15 years and waited eagerly for D3, were already geared up and started progress on paragon levels. They had piled up some gear for me, but it wasn't really enough to even survive in Inferno. Since they have more time than I do, I would have never been able to catch up with them. So, I ended up spending some real money (D'OH!) to close the gear gap - but only a bit to get some gold and not a big amount of money.
If I hadn't done this, I just wouldn't be playing today, because the only time I played D2 was with them, and it's the same for D3. Given that I just don't have the time to farm all that stuff, there was no other way (remember, they play more hours/week than I do). However, I only did this shortly after I hit 60 and ever since then, I haven't put any real money into the game and don't intend to do so - I even thought about cashing out to get my money back, but to be honest, I don't care.
True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.
In seconds, you achieve what takes me weeks, even months to reach.
It is your own business how you game, as well, how you achieve prominence in-game. But do not pretend that there is any sense of pride to be gleamed from a bought character.
Actually, I agree with all that progress thing and that it's nice to spend weeks in order to achieve something. However, in my personal opinion, "pride" is the wrong word. In the end, whether you spend a lot of time or money, it's either of that which lets you achieve something in D3. I don't feel any pride about that. In the end, I know that if I play a certain amount of time, I'm gonna find some items that I can sell or wear myself as an upgrade. I don't know how to describe the feeling, but "pride" sounds wrong to me. It does feel good to find a nice item, but I think for me it's more like playing the lottery and winning it; and of course I wouldn't be proud about that. When in our group one of us is on a bad streak and doesn't get any legendary drops, we even cross our fingers that this person gets a nice item drop soon, because we all know how it feels if you play for several hours/days and don't get a legendary. Therefore, I would treat the RMAH and the pride discussion separately here.
On the topic, what's my personal opinion about this (as someone who once used the RMAH but quit the RMAH business weeks ago):
1) I was a student once and would have loved the opportunity to get money out of the time that I invested in the game. Therefore, if someone has the money and buys stuff, it only helps those "poor students", I like that.
2) Some people buy stupid games for 60 bucks every month, play it for 5-10 hours (complete campaign once) and throw them away. If you play a game for years, why not spend the same money on that game and just treat it like "instead of buying Call of Duty #58374, let's put that money in the game that actually has some new content every now and then". In D2, I never used any trading (I only played and traded with my friends, so within our group we always played "self-found") - but I spent actual money because we run out of storage space and bought some more D2 keys... it was also nice as host for games, using a shared stash among our friends, or a separate account if someone who didn't own D2 wanted to play with us on a night when they came over.
3) Like Küken and Cryomatic said, D3 is not competitive (it will never be an e-sports game, even when PvP arrives, just like Blizzard recently announced). In a non-competitive game, and especially in a game which involves so much luck like D3, I don't see why real money would be considered cheating. IMHO, there's not much difference between using the AH and the RMAH, but it's just my personal view.
Much of the bitterness that 'straight edge' players like myself have toward people whom buy gear/gold comes from the bad apples that buy all their gear and then make fun of others (whom don't buy gears) for having less than elite gears.
Jaetch seems like the type of player that would never do this.
I couldn't agree more.
If you think people who spend real money on a game are jerks, just look at Jaetch, he's the perfect example of the opposite. He is completely aware that his gear is over the top and he is able to reflect on that. Even though his wizard is geared beyond insanity, he is able to give people useful advice who have 10% of his DPS. I hate it when people who just scratched the 100k DPS mark act as if they had beaten the game and almost spit at people looking for help ("rofl, your weapon is crap, you're so stupid, ..."). We all once were at this point - whether we used money, gold, or grinding items to proceed, is a different topic.
We all try to help these people here (well, at least most of us), and Jaetch has done so not only with lots of helpful posts, but also by giving them gear. Some of his real money is probably by now distributed over the US realm on poor wizards who progress a bit better just because he decided to help them. If you never use the (RM)AH but you don't respect other people, you're more of a jerk than anyone who put real money into the AH.
The fun part is that people make too much of a fuss about real money. Whether you buy stuff for gold or for real money - it doesn't matter. Both are, in essence, your time. The key difference is - gold is less convertible, meaning you generally can't buy real stuff for it. All the other things which matter - how much you overcomplicate things, in which currency you earn the same worth of diablo gear faster, and whether you want to take a shortcut to better gear and smoother farming, or not.
Can't really call this a philosophical question.. Most people just tend to value money more than it's worth.
IMHO, there's not much difference between using the AH and the RMAH, but it's just my personal view.
I must STRONGLY disagree with that.
There is no difference between the GAH and trade games via D2. It's just a different vehicle for the same transaction method. You have to play, hustle, save your scratch and spend smart to gear up intelligently. It is just a more accommodating, efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.
The difference between the GAH and the RMAH are striking when considering to what end they can be taken.
Via the GAH; You must play to earn wealth/commodities/items in order to enter the GAH and leave having progressed.
Via the RMAH; You could literally have never played, install the game, enter the RMAH and walk out with the best gear in the game (of course you have to level before using it). <<<This is what makes a lot of people act angry about RMAH'ers. Not me, just sayin. Some people cannot stand to have others be "better" than them.
Honestly, I think the most vocal haters of the RMAH are people whom have no means to participate in the RMAH, but they want to.
Much of the bitterness that 'straight edge' players like myself have toward people whom buy gear/gold comes from the bad apples that buy all their gear and then make fun of others (whom don't buy gears) for having less than elite gears.
Jaetch seems like the type of player that would never do this.
I couldn't agree more.
If you think people who spend real money on a game are jerks, just look at Jaetch, he's the perfect example of the opposite. He is completely aware that his gear is over the top and he is able to reflect on that. Even though his wizard is geared beyond insanity, he is able to give people useful advice who have 10% of his DPS. I hate it when people who just scratched the 100k DPS mark act as if they had beaten the game and almost spit at people looking for help ("rofl, your weapon is crap, you're so stupid, ..."). We all once were at this point - whether we used money, gold, or grinding items to proceed, is a different topic.
We all try to help these people here (well, at least most of us), and Jaetch has done so not only with lots of helpful posts, but also by giving them gear. Some of his real money is probably by now distributed over the US realm on poor wizards who progress a bit better just because he decided to help them. If you never use the (RM)AH but you don't respect other people, you're more of a jerk than anyone who put real money into the AH.
+1 to that.
Jaetch is a cool cat. Good point about the redistribution of wealth.
Myself, I have yet to hit that lottery drop. My top three net gold sales are 49.5mil for a 410 damage 8.5CC Gory Fetch, 42mil for IK boots w/ pickup and 15mil for some rare pants back in 1.04. Aside from that, a litany of 5-12mil sales. My most expensive item (that I use) is my amulet (Monk linked in my siggy) and that is self-found. Worth more than all my other gear combined.
True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.
Working in real life to make real money is not doing things the hard way? If you work a real job, make money then use some of that money to advance your game play experience then you are actually doing it in the oldest of fashions. This mentality that if you spend money for in-game items then you are not doing it right is a mentality that is only seen by those who think money falls off of trees. People have to work for the same money that paid for the game right? So if they are spending less money on other games and using that money to forward their personal experience in one game then is that just to new of a concept to be recognizes by the purist "old fashioned" folks? Some folks don’t have time to grind in-game all day because they are grinding all day at a real job and the money they make at their real job lets them get to the point they want to reach in-game by buying some upgrades that they would have otherwise never had the time to find. You’re going to spend your time somewhere, in-game or in a job and how you spend the money you make is of no concern to others.
I have spent some cash in-game and find it rewarding. I like having a few extra bucks that might have otherwise been spent on fast food and spending on my game so that I can enjoy a new piece of gear. Heck, it not only affects my game experience but my waistline as well!
The way I see it, there should be two ways of playing the game (just like hardcore and softcore) for softcore: one that allows both the auction houses and one that only allows gah. I have nothing against people buying stuff for real money, you can do as you please. Life is all about doing whatever the fuck you want, right? But I'd honestly prefer to be ranked among those that don't buy items with real life money. Mainly because I'm not interested in investing cash into a game I might not be playing tomorrow, nor do I like receiving "free stuff" in game. I mean, I could probably go with it and buy some godly Echoing fury for my monk, but then I'd probably be hella bored.
//please note that the way the game is right now is not something that effects me profoundly. I would like to have it the other way, but I'm fine with it.
True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.
Working in real life to make real money is not doing things the hard way?
lol.....with all due respect, you're going to break your arm reaching like that. NO...just ....no. What you do in life is entirely external to the gaming realm.
how you spend the money you make is of no concern to others.
It's not that it's my "concern". I'm just sayin......if you buy items you inarguabley have chosen a shortcut. Nevermind where or how you garnered the money. Nevermind how much time you have. When you enter the RMAH to buy items/gold, you are making a choice to circumvent effort by monetary means.
You are buying something that other people play the game to earn. We all work....OK...maybe not all of us :Thumbs Up: ....but I know I do. I have a daughter, friends, many interests like fishing, hunting and 4-wheeling (did I mention bitches?) and I hold myself to no excuses as to why I would even think of cheating myself of the experience to earn my gears.
I've canceled my wow subscription and pumped some of that money into D3, after trying to find/finance upgrades for several month without RL cash. It did not work out, so I was really glad when I finally had the funds to make a big upgrade. It really improved my game experience and was worth it.
On the other hand I had to play ubers/keyruns with a friend of a friend who invested tons of cash into his newly leveled char. His paperdoll stats were amazing but he was close to useless when doing ubers. He had five times the EHP and ten times the life steal/life on hit than me. Nevertheless he kept dying. And I really despise that type of players.
Hmm, I'm a bit concerned about the "buy in order to have a better experience" tidbit... which goes to show what's wrong with the itemization/drop quality rate in this game. I started using cash to kickstart my wizard project; but then again, you spending money to give yourself a boost is no different than me boosting my leaderboard efforts.
True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.
Working in real life to make real money is not doing things the hard way?
lol.....with all due respect, you're going to break your arm reaching like that. NO...just ....no. What you do in life is entirely external to the gaming realm.
how you spend the money you make is of no concern to others.
It's not that it's my "concern". I'm just sayin......if you buy items you inarguabley have chosen a shortcut. Nevermind where or how you garnered the money. Nevermind how much time you have. When you enter the RMAH to buy items/gold, you are making a choice to circumvent effort by monetary means.
You are buying something that other people play the game to earn. We all work....OK...maybe not all of us :Thumbs Up: ....but I know I do. I have a daughter, friends, many interests like fishing, hunting and 4-wheeling (did I mention bitches?) and I hold myself to no excuses as to why I would even think of cheating myself of the experience to earn my gears.
Saying that you are cheating yourself of the gaming experience (or gear) is one of the biggest dumbass things I have heard yet. Coming from you that is not too much of a stretch though since most of what you say here is based off of a very simplistic way of thinking... or should I say a "high off your ass" way of thinking.
Using real money in a game that has that option as a viable way of furthering your experience in the game is far from cheating yourself of a gaming experience since that money had to come from somewhere and might represent a small sacrifice elsewhere. If you choose to call it cheating yourself out of anything then you are simply giving up on the argument and taking a more narrow minded view.
Most narrow minded folks think that the end game is farming for that next item or gear that will gain you a few hundred DPS or life and it ends there... Others who have a more open mind tend to see the end game in a few other ways. One being the end game of slaughtering monsters on higher levels with no issues without having 3 to 4 hours a day to get there. Earning in-game gold by helping others achieve their Hellfire rings by having a character that can run MP10 with no issues. Leveling up faster on all characters without having to spend the next 10 years doing so by buying a few items on the AH with XP increase... The game is as you want it to be and tossing out stupid derogatory remarks about cheating yourself is just a showing of how simplistic your outlook is.
This entire thread is the epitome of douche! You wrote a whole tl;dr post about how one guy antagonized you over something, which is all good and fine, but then you go ahead and say you PITY him?! Isn't that a little hypocritical at the very least? If you want to act all high and mighty about something, at least be the bigger man and take the high road. Saying you understand his opinion and pity him for it is extremely presumptuous. This trail kid could've easily posted his own thing about how he understands the opinion of this Jaetch kid he argued with on bnet and pities Jaetch for having elementary incorrect opinions which are easily understood. Your tunnel vision is evidently blinding you since you can't see this!
Anyway I'm with whoever said the game genie bit. But I have no problem with people who spend on the rmah! Without them I wouldn't be able to sell my digital stuff for irl cash money!
Flame on
QFT.
I was reading the posts and was going to add something until I read this and shit... this dude just took the words out of my mouth.
Saying that you are cheating yourself of the gaming experience (or gear) is one of the biggest dumbass things I have heard yet. Coming from you that is not too much of a stretch though since most of what you say here is based off of a very simplistic way of thinking... or should I say a "high off your ass" way of thinking.
Whoa ...settle down there cowboy. Let's not turn this thread ugly.
I'm trying to be careful to not put anybody down while giving my personal opinion.
Let me make myself clear, to address my comment about "cheating myself". If I had 200 million dollars in the bank, I would not buy items or gold, ever. I'm not saying people whom feel differently are wrong, I'm just saying that's how I feel about these sorts of games and how I wish to approach them.
Much of this is reflected in my actual play style, as I do not play MP1 speed runs. Instead, I keep it challenging by farming always on MP7. I want the challenge to always be present, and this ideal translates to how I acquire gear as well.
Call it "simplistic thinking" or whatever you wish. I have never been the short-cheese player.
The game is as you want it to be and tossing out stupid derogatory remarks about cheating yourself is just a showing of how simplistic your outlook is.
I said "cheating myself", as in ME.......I did not call you or the OP a "cheater". There was nothing derogatory about my comments. The only derogatory comments being fired off are from your side, brother.
I'm not sure why you cannot conceptualize what I'm talking about? The pride of building a top-tier character without spending real money, without botting, just from long-term play and smart decisions, is a tangible thing.
It will take me much longer to accomplish than a RMAH'er. I will have to pour in hours over a much longer period of real-time. But I WILL build a first-class Monk the old fuckin fashioned way. If you cannot understand how that leads one to a much more fulfilling sense of accomplishment, I have no idea what to say.
I'm enjoying the excuses as to why people "have to" use the RMAH.
IMHO, there's not much difference between using the AH and the RMAH, but it's just my personal view.
I must STRONGLY disagree with that.
There is no difference between the GAH and trade games via D2. It's just a different vehicle for the same transaction method. You have to play, hustle, save your scratch and spend smart to gear up intelligently. It is just a more accommodating, efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.
The difference between the GAH and the RMAH are striking when considering to what end they can be taken.
Via the GAH; You must play to earn wealth/commodities/items in order to enter the GAH and leave having progressed.
Via the RMAH; You could literally have never played, install the game, enter the RMAH and walk out with the best gear in the game (of course you have to level before using it). <<<This is what makes a lot of people act angry about RMAH'ers. Not me, just sayin. Some people cannot stand to have others be "better" than them.
Honestly, I think the most vocal haters of the RMAH are people whom have no means to participate in the RMAH, but they want to.
you dont need to play to make gold, i am not saying that you dont need any gold to start but just in the same way..you cant use the gear before 60 as you stated for rmah, you could just stop at 60 and play the ah and make million of gold without playing at all, sure wouldnt be that fun either of course but then again it wouldnt be a rmah discussion either.
It is just a more accommodating, efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.(pretty sure it can be applied to rmah too), didnt you earned that money?. I know you meant earned wealth in-game...what if you spend into rmah and then you remake your money using this gear? afterall all of this is just trading (time-money-gold) for (time-money-gold).
yes it can be unfair for others who cant afford it, but you play for yourself and the only person you want to compete in this game is yourself, how you choose to play is a personnal choice i think
you dont need to play to make gold, i am not saying that you dont need any gold to start but just in the same way..you cant use the gear before 60 as you stated for rmah, you could just stop at 60 and play the ah and make million of gold without playing at all, sure wouldnt be that fun either of course but then again it wouldnt be a rmah discussion either.
It is just a more accommodating, efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.(pretty sure it can be applied to rmah too), didnt you earned that money?. I know you meant earned wealth in-game...what if you spend into rmah and then you remake your money using this gear? afterall all of this is just trading (time-money-gold) for (time-money-gold).
yes it can be unfair for others who cant afford it, but you play for yourself and the only person you want to compete in this game is yourself, how you choose to play is a personnal choice i think
That's an interesting take, I'll give ya that.
I suppose you could flip until you had hundreds of millions to properly gear an endgame quality character. Again, personal taste trumps all. Myself, I would rather masturbate with shards of glass than to do that (and only that), but I'm sure there are folks out there that would get into the whole AH broker game.
This entire thread is the epitome of douche! You wrote a whole tl;dr post about how one guy antagonized you over something, which is all good and fine, but then you go ahead and say you PITY him?! Isn't that a little hypocritical at the very least? If you want to act all high and mighty about something, at least be the bigger man and take the high road. Saying you understand his opinion and pity him for it is extremely presumptuous. This trail kid could've easily posted his own thing about how he understands the opinion of this Jaetch kid he argued with on bnet and pities Jaetch for having elementary incorrect opinions which are easily understood. Your tunnel vision is evidently blinding you since you can't see this!
Anyway I'm with whoever said the game genie bit. But I have no problem with people who spend on the rmah! Without them I wouldn't be able to sell my digital stuff for irl cash money!
Flame on
QFT.
I was reading the posts and was going to add something until I read this and shit... this dude just took the words out of my mouth.
Excuse me, but apparently you did not read and/or understand the whole thing. The reason why I pitied the guy was because he could not understand the whole point of the argument, which is the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on how to manage their personal finances. It's opinion about people's own lives. I understood where he was coming from in terms of being against spending money on virtual items and skipping progression, much like ruksak here is. And I understand that. However, I do not understand why someone will berate others solely because they don't agree with other people's interests.
No one else was there with me during the actual discussion, so there's no way you'd know all the details. However, the majority of the time was spent trying to convince Trail that it's essentially "to each his own," "whatever floats your boat," "whatever tickles your pickle." And he could not accept that. It's purely philosophical. I'm fine with him being irritated that I'm blowing money on game items, I'm also fine with him not accepting other people's way of doing things (as I've stated, I wasn't offended the entire time until he put my friends and family into the argument). I say I pity him because he's closed-minded and will not acknowledge that people have opinions that differ from his.
I just leave the Text posted by WishboneTheDog (from Reddit) here...
You cant really explain it any better for the narrow minded people who think spending cash is stupid :
But yes, I will elaborate. People think that paying "real money" in a video game is a huge leap from paying in gold or from grinding for an item. What people don't realize is that currencies are only a numerical representation of value. As soon as there is a collective demand for goods, both virtual and "real," value is created. Humans developed currencies to represent this value in a tangible way, and to make the exchange of these goods more liquid.
When there is collective demand from real people for an item within a game market, the same value is created as anything else in the world, and you can put a number on it. That number can be different depending on the currency you are using to represent the value. You need a lot more Yen than Euros to represent the same value. The same goes for gold.
Gold is like a foreign currency. It represents value, but only within the specific game world. You can't use gold to buy things in stores in the US, just like you can't use Yen to buy things in those stores. If, however, you can convert that currency to a usable one, it has an "exchange rate." Gold has an exchange rate exactly like a foreign currency has. (Except gold is more easily exchanged than 90% of the currencies in the world) This is why botting should not only be against the rules, it should be illegal. (Korea kinda gets it)
So items are just exchanged at the value that demand sets. Regardless of whether it is in gold or real money. Or even in bartering. People demand, the market supplies.
It will get long, but bear with me.
The concept of "pay to win."
You always pay to win. I just explained how gold and USD are very much the same within a game economy, but there is something even less tangible that is also the same: time. Time is the most valuable currency there is. There is an exchange rate for time to money, but there is no exchange rate back.
Gamers who play within economies create the value of the currency (gold) when they take time to accumulate that currency, and the rarity of an item contributes to the item's value equal to the amount of time a person would have to play to statistically obtain it. This is very similar to any currency and wage labor. (I would love to hear Marx's thoughts on Diablo gold) This is time being converted into a currency. (THIS IS REALLY WHY BOTTING SHOULD BE ILLEGAL Through dilution, bots destroy real value that gamers create by playing.)
You always pay to win because you either pay in time or in a currency. Some people are rich in time, and some people are rich in currency. And anyone who spends more time will also have the skills to back it up. Plus, why not let people with a lot of money give your game time real-world value?
The only problem with Diablo in this regard IMO is that gear is possibly too much of a factor in terms of your heroes ability. Not that it shouldn't be significant, but it should be balanced with skill. This is a difficult balance for a dev team.
With this balance, paying money for the gear is the equivalent of purchasing nice golf clubs, or high tech running/climbing/basketball shoes. It's purchasing gear that gives you an edge on the competition in the game that you play. A thousand dollars for a good set of golf clubs gives you the ability to play the game of golf better than someone of equal skill playing with a $10 garage sale set. It doesn't automatically make you good, but it helps you get there. And if you love that game, then by all means play your best.
For me it's not about the subtraction of money from my wallet. It's about the subtraction of the challenge of gearing up.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
For the sake of Diablo 3 gameplay, you are totally right. As a general note, I do keep my statement as before.
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
No matter what your excuse is... well, there here's my excuse:
I waited for Diablo 3 for years. Then Diablo 3 release date was just exactly at a time where I couldn't play for 3 months. When I started playing mid-September, all my friends with whom I played Diablo 1+2 for 15 years and waited eagerly for D3, were already geared up and started progress on paragon levels. They had piled up some gear for me, but it wasn't really enough to even survive in Inferno. Since they have more time than I do, I would have never been able to catch up with them. So, I ended up spending some real money (D'OH!) to close the gear gap - but only a bit to get some gold and not a big amount of money.
If I hadn't done this, I just wouldn't be playing today, because the only time I played D2 was with them, and it's the same for D3. Given that I just don't have the time to farm all that stuff, there was no other way (remember, they play more hours/week than I do). However, I only did this shortly after I hit 60 and ever since then, I haven't put any real money into the game and don't intend to do so - I even thought about cashing out to get my money back, but to be honest, I don't care.
Actually, I agree with all that progress thing and that it's nice to spend weeks in order to achieve something. However, in my personal opinion, "pride" is the wrong word. In the end, whether you spend a lot of time or money, it's either of that which lets you achieve something in D3. I don't feel any pride about that. In the end, I know that if I play a certain amount of time, I'm gonna find some items that I can sell or wear myself as an upgrade. I don't know how to describe the feeling, but "pride" sounds wrong to me. It does feel good to find a nice item, but I think for me it's more like playing the lottery and winning it; and of course I wouldn't be proud about that. When in our group one of us is on a bad streak and doesn't get any legendary drops, we even cross our fingers that this person gets a nice item drop soon, because we all know how it feels if you play for several hours/days and don't get a legendary. Therefore, I would treat the RMAH and the pride discussion separately here.
On the topic, what's my personal opinion about this (as someone who once used the RMAH but quit the RMAH business weeks ago):
1) I was a student once and would have loved the opportunity to get money out of the time that I invested in the game. Therefore, if someone has the money and buys stuff, it only helps those "poor students", I like that.
2) Some people buy stupid games for 60 bucks every month, play it for 5-10 hours (complete campaign once) and throw them away. If you play a game for years, why not spend the same money on that game and just treat it like "instead of buying Call of Duty #58374, let's put that money in the game that actually has some new content every now and then". In D2, I never used any trading (I only played and traded with my friends, so within our group we always played "self-found") - but I spent actual money because we run out of storage space and bought some more D2 keys... it was also nice as host for games, using a shared stash among our friends, or a separate account if someone who didn't own D2 wanted to play with us on a night when they came over.
3) Like Küken and Cryomatic said, D3 is not competitive (it will never be an e-sports game, even when PvP arrives, just like Blizzard recently announced). In a non-competitive game, and especially in a game which involves so much luck like D3, I don't see why real money would be considered cheating. IMHO, there's not much difference between using the AH and the RMAH, but it's just my personal view.
I couldn't agree more.
If you think people who spend real money on a game are jerks, just look at Jaetch, he's the perfect example of the opposite. He is completely aware that his gear is over the top and he is able to reflect on that. Even though his wizard is geared beyond insanity, he is able to give people useful advice who have 10% of his DPS. I hate it when people who just scratched the 100k DPS mark act as if they had beaten the game and almost spit at people looking for help ("rofl, your weapon is crap, you're so stupid, ..."). We all once were at this point - whether we used money, gold, or grinding items to proceed, is a different topic.
We all try to help these people here (well, at least most of us), and Jaetch has done so not only with lots of helpful posts, but also by giving them gear. Some of his real money is probably by now distributed over the US realm on poor wizards who progress a bit better just because he decided to help them. If you never use the (RM)AH but you don't respect other people, you're more of a jerk than anyone who put real money into the AH.
Can't really call this a philosophical question.. Most people just tend to value money more than it's worth.
I must STRONGLY disagree with that.
There is no difference between the GAH and trade games via D2. It's just a different vehicle for the same transaction method. You have to play, hustle, save your scratch and spend smart to gear up intelligently. It is just a more accommodating, efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.
The difference between the GAH and the RMAH are striking when considering to what end they can be taken.
Via the GAH; You must play to earn wealth/commodities/items in order to enter the GAH and leave having progressed.
Via the RMAH; You could literally have never played, install the game, enter the RMAH and walk out with the best gear in the game (of course you have to level before using it). <<<This is what makes a lot of people act angry about RMAH'ers. Not me, just sayin. Some people cannot stand to have others be "better" than them.
Honestly, I think the most vocal haters of the RMAH are people whom have no means to participate in the RMAH, but they want to.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
+1 to that.
Jaetch is a cool cat. Good point about the redistribution of wealth.
Myself, I have yet to hit that lottery drop. My top three net gold sales are 49.5mil for a 410 damage 8.5CC Gory Fetch, 42mil for IK boots w/ pickup and 15mil for some rare pants back in 1.04. Aside from that, a litany of 5-12mil sales. My most expensive item (that I use) is my amulet (Monk linked in my siggy) and that is self-found. Worth more than all my other gear combined.
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Working in real life to make real money is not doing things the hard way? If you work a real job, make money then use some of that money to advance your game play experience then you are actually doing it in the oldest of fashions. This mentality that if you spend money for in-game items then you are not doing it right is a mentality that is only seen by those who think money falls off of trees. People have to work for the same money that paid for the game right? So if they are spending less money on other games and using that money to forward their personal experience in one game then is that just to new of a concept to be recognizes by the purist "old fashioned" folks? Some folks don’t have time to grind in-game all day because they are grinding all day at a real job and the money they make at their real job lets them get to the point they want to reach in-game by buying some upgrades that they would have otherwise never had the time to find. You’re going to spend your time somewhere, in-game or in a job and how you spend the money you make is of no concern to others.
I have spent some cash in-game and find it rewarding. I like having a few extra bucks that might have otherwise been spent on fast food and spending on my game so that I can enjoy a new piece of gear. Heck, it not only affects my game experience but my waistline as well!
//please note that the way the game is right now is not something that effects me profoundly. I would like to have it the other way, but I'm fine with it.
lol.....with all due respect, you're going to break your arm reaching like that. NO...just ....no. What you do in life is entirely external to the gaming realm.
It's not that it's my "concern". I'm just sayin......if you buy items you inarguabley have chosen a shortcut. Nevermind where or how you garnered the money. Nevermind how much time you have. When you enter the RMAH to buy items/gold, you are making a choice to circumvent effort by monetary means.
You are buying something that other people play the game to earn. We all work....OK...maybe not all of us :Thumbs Up: ....but I know I do. I have a daughter, friends, many interests like fishing, hunting and 4-wheeling (did I mention bitches?) and I hold myself to no excuses as to why I would even think of cheating myself of the experience to earn my gears.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Hmm, I'm a bit concerned about the "buy in order to have a better experience" tidbit... which goes to show what's wrong with the itemization/drop quality rate in this game. I started using cash to kickstart my wizard project; but then again, you spending money to give yourself a boost is no different than me boosting my leaderboard efforts.
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Saying that you are cheating yourself of the gaming experience (or gear) is one of the biggest dumbass things I have heard yet. Coming from you that is not too much of a stretch though since most of what you say here is based off of a very simplistic way of thinking... or should I say a "high off your ass" way of thinking.
Using real money in a game that has that option as a viable way of furthering your experience in the game is far from cheating yourself of a gaming experience since that money had to come from somewhere and might represent a small sacrifice elsewhere. If you choose to call it cheating yourself out of anything then you are simply giving up on the argument and taking a more narrow minded view.
Most narrow minded folks think that the end game is farming for that next item or gear that will gain you a few hundred DPS or life and it ends there... Others who have a more open mind tend to see the end game in a few other ways. One being the end game of slaughtering monsters on higher levels with no issues without having 3 to 4 hours a day to get there. Earning in-game gold by helping others achieve their Hellfire rings by having a character that can run MP10 with no issues. Leveling up faster on all characters without having to spend the next 10 years doing so by buying a few items on the AH with XP increase... The game is as you want it to be and tossing out stupid derogatory remarks about cheating yourself is just a showing of how simplistic your outlook is.
QFT.
I was reading the posts and was going to add something until I read this and shit... this dude just took the words out of my mouth.
Whoa ...settle down there cowboy. Let's not turn this thread ugly.
I'm trying to be careful to not put anybody down while giving my personal opinion.
Let me make myself clear, to address my comment about "cheating myself". If I had 200 million dollars in the bank, I would not buy items or gold, ever. I'm not saying people whom feel differently are wrong, I'm just saying that's how I feel about these sorts of games and how I wish to approach them.
Much of this is reflected in my actual play style, as I do not play MP1 speed runs. Instead, I keep it challenging by farming always on MP7. I want the challenge to always be present, and this ideal translates to how I acquire gear as well.
Call it "simplistic thinking" or whatever you wish. I have never been the short-cheese player.
I said "cheating myself", as in ME.......I did not call you or the OP a "cheater". There was nothing derogatory about my comments. The only derogatory comments being fired off are from your side, brother.
I'm not sure why you cannot conceptualize what I'm talking about? The pride of building a top-tier character without spending real money, without botting, just from long-term play and smart decisions, is a tangible thing.
It will take me much longer to accomplish than a RMAH'er. I will have to pour in hours over a much longer period of real-time. But I WILL build a first-class Monk the old fuckin fashioned way. If you cannot understand how that leads one to a much more fulfilling sense of accomplishment, I have no idea what to say.
I'm enjoying the excuses as to why people "have to" use the RMAH.
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you dont need to play to make gold, i am not saying that you dont need any gold to start but just in the same way..you cant use the gear before 60 as you stated for rmah, you could just stop at 60 and play the ah and make million of gold without playing at all, sure wouldnt be that fun either of course but then again it wouldnt be a rmah discussion either.
It is just a more accommodating, efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.(pretty sure it can be applied to rmah too), didnt you earned that money?. I know you meant earned wealth in-game...what if you spend into rmah and then you remake your money using this gear? afterall all of this is just trading (time-money-gold) for (time-money-gold).
yes it can be unfair for others who cant afford it, but you play for yourself and the only person you want to compete in this game is yourself, how you choose to play is a personnal choice i think
That's an interesting take, I'll give ya that.
I suppose you could flip until you had hundreds of millions to properly gear an endgame quality character. Again, personal taste trumps all. Myself, I would rather masturbate with shards of glass than to do that (and only that), but I'm sure there are folks out there that would get into the whole AH broker game.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Excuse me, but apparently you did not read and/or understand the whole thing. The reason why I pitied the guy was because he could not understand the whole point of the argument, which is the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on how to manage their personal finances. It's opinion about people's own lives. I understood where he was coming from in terms of being against spending money on virtual items and skipping progression, much like ruksak here is. And I understand that. However, I do not understand why someone will berate others solely because they don't agree with other people's interests.
No one else was there with me during the actual discussion, so there's no way you'd know all the details. However, the majority of the time was spent trying to convince Trail that it's essentially "to each his own," "whatever floats your boat," "whatever tickles your pickle." And he could not accept that. It's purely philosophical. I'm fine with him being irritated that I'm blowing money on game items, I'm also fine with him not accepting other people's way of doing things (as I've stated, I wasn't offended the entire time until he put my friends and family into the argument). I say I pity him because he's closed-minded and will not acknowledge that people have opinions that differ from his.
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You cant really explain it any better for the narrow minded people who think spending cash is stupid :
Smart Guy