but... isn't that why the Tier 7 skills will have longer cooldowns? It seems like it's a choice - less damage more often or more damage less often.
But it shouldn't be so op'ed that you need a 2 min cooldown to compensate.
Why not? If there isn't a cooldown or something to prevent it being spammed, THEN it would be overpowered. The cooldown prevents that.
I'm talking overpowered in terms of damage and stuff. like if you have a skill that makes you invulnerable for a minute thats just too Op'ed and its a bunch of Bs i'd rather have normal skills that aren't op'ed like that but a wide variety to choose from so i can tailor my build to my liking.
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Anything >= 10 sec just doesn't sit right for me. Diablo is a hack and slash game, not grand strategy.
While it's a good way to 'pigeonhole' people into using/getting the low tier skills as well and not just switch over to the high tier ones as soon as you can, I think D2 does a good job at that as well with synergies. Especially if you can expand on that idea.
Diablo and Diablo 2 were both hack n' slash but Diablo 3 is different as far as I know. It might not be all about strategy but thinking you can run into a group of monsters and just hack n' slash your way through them might be possible but sometimes you have to use certain "OH SH*T" skills to get rid of them and spamming those 2 minute CD skills as if they have no cooldown what would be the fun in using them if you continuously spam them, doesn't make them all high & mighty anymore now does it?
Also if they were no CD on those skills they would make your lower tier skills obsolete and you'll never want to use those skills again.
Yeah, I really don't see what's fun about spamming the same skill all the time
I just had to sign up and make an account so I could reply to the rubbish that has been stated above.
One of the MAIN things that made Diablo 2 fun was SPAMMING your strongest skills. Oh the nostalgia of running around with your high level sorceress and SPAMMING ice orb was the most fun I have had in any game I have ever played. What the hell are you talking about that it is not fun!!!!
And second of all - the Diablo series is foremost and primarily a HACK'N'SLASH game... That means plowing through mobs with ease and comfort!!! That is what made Diablo 2 so successful!!! No one would have been playing Diablo 2 for freaking 8 years if you couldn't do these things mentioned above. THEY WERE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN THE GAMEPLAY OF DIABLO FFS!
It is this total pwnage gameplay that makes Diablo, Diablo.
PS: I don't mean any offence, just personal opinion.
That's just not possible how can a spell you get at level 1 be as powerful as a skill you get at level 30? The level 30 skill has to be powerful enough at skill lvl 1 to kill the current monsters. The skill from lvl 1 will need to have it's level raised to be effective at clvl 30. With both skills at lvl 15, the one you got at lvl 30 will always be stronger.
Logic FTW.
That is incomplete logic
Its a matter of scaling. Remember there are 2 ways to increase the power of any given skill and each has a different way of promoting scaling and that is without including gear
-1 is by adding ranks. Everyone is comfortable with this as it is very familiar. The scaling factor Blizz had for this was the temporary skill rank max (from 5 to 15 later) which meant that at Clevel X you could re-set the power of all spells available at that point so that each one is equal at rank 6.
-->An example Wanda the Wizard has Magic Missile, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Arcane orb, and Disintegrate. and is level 19. Any skill here can be at level 5 but only at level 20 can any skill go above level 5. all of the firs 5 tiers can have their power at rank 6 be similar to the tier 6 skills. Wanda levels and can can a higher DPS skill equally from one of the soft maxed early skills or take a new skill that is at that level. Do this again with a soft limit at 10 after getting all possible tiers and any spell at rank 11 (at maybe clevel 35-40) can be of similar power.
-2 is runes! Everyone seems to forget that there are 7 tiers of runes that you can add to skills and not just 1. Why is that? probably so Blizz can use them to balance out the skills in different tiers. Even a rank 1 rune in a skill makes it more powerful in addition to changing it, so if they use the 7 ranks effectively then they can make even the skills you put 1 rank into viable at the end of Hell in some way, especially if these tend to be the low/no damage abilities. (remember skill ranks are limited runes are not
Also, cool-downs != loss of strategy. They do not necessarily promote strategy, but Blizz is trying to make the higher level skills more strategic (this is also why they are not available at earlier levels along with the idea of easing players into the game). All of this is dependent on implementation which Beta will hopefully address. A lot of the high tier skills also tend to be duration effectively reducing the cooldown anyway (imagine a 3 min. cool-down on thunderstorm. its actually less than 20 sec). Again with the play-testing.
AS I type this, I believe it was entity that had an example of Locust swarm, Pit of Fire, or parasite. To that I say Locus swarm is not static (it moves with the monsters)AoE, Pit of Fire is Static AoE and Parasit is single target. I would never use parasite on a group of fallen, nor (because they flee) would I use Pit of fire. Pit of Fire would work just fine on Goatmen, but Parasite I would use on the leader who stands in the back. All useful (assuming the damage is scaled intelligently) and all ineffective at a job the others excel at. I would also like to point out that the lowest tier skill(as far as we know), is the simplest to use.
I may rant more later, but I feel this post got away from me
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
Raptorbonz I like you. Very well written and totally hits it in the nail, especially the part about leading a player in to how to use their character. Bravo
That's just not possible how can a spell you get at level 1 be as powerful as a skill you get at level 30? The level 30 skill has to be powerful enough at skill lvl 1 to kill the current monsters. The skill from lvl 1 will need to have it's level raised to be effective at clvl 30. With both skills at lvl 15, the one you got at lvl 30 will always be stronger.
Logic FTW.
That is incomplete logic
Its a matter of scaling. Remember there are 2 ways to increase the power of any given skill and each has a different way of promoting scaling and that is without including gear
-1 is by adding ranks. Everyone is comfortable with this as it is very familiar. The scaling factor Blizz had for this was the temporary skill rank max (from 5 to 15 later) which meant that at Clevel X you could re-set the power of all spells available at that point so that each one is equal at rank 6.
-->An example Wanda the Wizard has Magic Missile, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Arcane orb, and Disintegrate. and is level 19. Any skill here can be at level 5 but only at level 20 can any skill go above level 5. all of the firs 5 tiers can have their power at rank 6 be similar to the tier 6 skills. Wanda levels and can can a higher DPS skill equally from one of the soft maxed early skills or take a new skill that is at that level. Do this again with a soft limit at 10 after getting all possible tiers and any spell at rank 11 (at maybe clevel 35-40) can be of similar power.
-2 is runes! Everyone seems to forget that there are 7 tiers of runes that you can add to skills and not just 1. Why is that? probably so Blizz can use them to balance out the skills in different tiers. Even a rank 1 rune in a skill makes it more powerful in addition to changing it, so if they use the 7 ranks effectively then they can make even the skills you put 1 rank into viable at the end of Hell in some way, especially if these tend to be the low/no damage abilities. (remember skill ranks are limited runes are not
Also, cool-downs != loss of strategy. They do not necessarily promote strategy, but Blizz is trying to make the higher level skills more strategic (this is also why they are not available at earlier levels along with the idea of easing players into the game). All of this is dependent on implementation which Beta will hopefully address. A lot of the high tier skills also tend to be duration effectively reducing the cooldown anyway (imagine a 3 min. cool-down on thunderstorm. its actually less than 20 sec). Again with the play-testing.
AS I type this, I believe it was entity that had an example of Locust swarm, Pit of Fire, or parasite. To that I say Locus swarm is not static (it moves with the monsters)AoE, Pit of Fire is Static AoE and Parasit is single target. I would never use parasite on a group of fallen, nor (because they flee) would I use Pit of fire. Pit of Fire would work just fine on Goatmen, but Parasite I would use on the leader who stands in the back. All useful (assuming the damage is scaled intelligently) and all ineffective at a job the others excel at. I would also like to point out that the lowest tier skill(as far as we know), is the simplest to use.
I may rant more later, but I feel this post got away from me
Skills don't scale if they have a set range of attack. Of Course if they are all percentage base then they scale but no matter what you say the tier 6 will always have more percentage than a tier 1 skill, therefore making the lower tiered skills obsolete compared to the hgiher tiered ones, thus, making them less viable. And i know what you are going to say, that oh locust swarm is useful here but not here just as pit of fire is useful here but not here, and to an extent you are right. But not completely being that if tier 6 has no Cd which as of now i believe they don't i can just spam pit of fire around fallen groups and have the fetishes kill them all by surrounding instead of a directly underneath attack. So instead of using locust swarm to easily spread to every victim, i could spam up pit of fire. And a second counter to this claim is there is probably a better dynamic AoE spell from the witchdoctor, just like parasite is better than poison dart.
2. You misunderstand runes i see. Runes don't necessarily increase damage. There are a few that do but not all do, mostly runes are there to change the way a skill works. I know for ray of frost there is one that makes it build up to a higher max damage percent but the trade off is it starts lower, but if you put indigo in it it becomes an AoE vortex that has no increased damage. So runing a skill will not make it better per se but it will change the way you use the skill and the playstyle.
3. there is only one thing i agree with cooldowns that most of the time the skill will be in effect already while the cooldown is in effect thus making it a slower time. But i would still like to cast multiple thunderstorms or blizzards over a wide range of areas so even in their futile attempt to escape they freeze and die.
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What people seem to be missing is how much this limits build choices. The presence of OP skills, limitations of one skill per tier, and cooldowns, will lead to lines, e.g., builds will compose of a set of skills from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, with careful balance of the line, removing builds within tier or multiples of tiers, thus drastically lowering build diversity to each tier x number of skills x number of tiers - side effect of balancing, vs a permutation of # of skills per class.
I am not sure why we're coming back to DII really...
I honestly never liked the tiered system that much to begin with, but they seemed to have wanted to genuinely balance them this time around. Now, why does Locust Swarm even exist? To spam something before I get my tier 7's? Disgusting.
What people seem to be missing is how much this limits build choices.
Yes, maybe I'm too dumb (a definite possibility) but I really can't comprehend you on that.
You want all the builds to be different but still viable in the same way because otherwise some builds will be more effective than others? Don't you like the challenge of beating the game in an unusual way? Just to prove you can do it? Are you jealous of people who prefer to play the perfect build and you feel compelled to play the same build they have?
I like the challenge to find out which are the better builds as much as I like to explore different builds just to test out how they work and try to beat the game with them.
Lower tier skills exist because they will give you a feeling of progression through the game.
You level up and your character grow stronger and get stronger skills.
In order to attempt to make lower tier skills viable they added cooldowns.
All skills unlocked at level one? I'm against it. I would be forced to pick up 7 skills in the beginning and play them through all Acts in each difficulty level.....boring.
Skills don't scale if they have a set range of attack. Of Course if they are all percentage base then they scale but no matter what you say the tier 6 will always have more percentage than a tier 1 skill, therefore making the lower tiered skills obsolete compared to the hgiher tiered ones, thus, making them less viable.
2. You misunderstand runes i see. Runes don't necessarily increase damage. There are a few that do but not all do, mostly runes are there to change the way a skill works. I
3. there is only one thing i agree with cooldowns that most of the time the skill will be in effect already while the cooldown is in effect thus making it a slower time. But i would still like to cast multiple thunderstorms or blizzards over a wide range of areas so even in their futile attempt to escape they freeze and die.
As for 1, they can have a set range +mods, but more to the point, I am not saying that the damage is equal. I tried to specifically say the skill was comparable; so damage, resource, cool-down, utility, etc, all factor into that.
As for 2, Yea, I saw the RoF vids as well, and at one point I specifically asked if all runes added damage including the ones that had major changes to how the skill functioned, because I thought it would be cool If runes did not typically affect damage, however the different levels of runes made this seem less likely, and indeed the answer I got back was 'yes, all runes to damage skills add to the damage to some degree as well as the other changes they grant.' So one of us is mistaken and we will have to wait on further info in order to know (or more likely we are both right, just at different stages of development.)
As for 3 Thunderstorms didn't stack in D2...?
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
What people seem to be missing is how much this limits build choices.
Yes, maybe I'm too dumb (a definite possibility) but I really can't comprehend you on that.
You want all the builds to be different but still viable in the same way because otherwise some builds will be more effective than others? Don't you like the challenge of beating the game in an unusual way? Just to prove you can do it? Are you jealous of people who prefer to play the perfect build and you feel compelled to play the same build they have?
I like the challenge to find out which are the better builds as much as I like to explore different builds just to test out how they work and try to beat the game with them.
Lower tier skills exist because they will give you a feeling of progression through the game.
You level up and your character grow stronger and get stronger skills.
In order to attempt to make lower tier skills viable they added cooldowns.
All skills unlocked at level one? I'm against it. I would be forced to pick up 7 skills in the beginning and play them through all Acts in each difficulty level.....boring.
Equinox is right here to a point. If Blizz falls on its face and fail to balance the lower tier skills with the higher tier skills and put some hack job cool-down 'balance' (not real balance but claimed balance) then you will need the lower tier skills to 'fill the space' as it were. However, I am sure that there is a way to do it 'right' being that I can go the entire game with my primary damage skill being what I want and have precisely what I want for my other 6 skills (regardless of tier rank) and be viable. In response to Pikke, Try going through D2 with the only skill you want to use being Fissure on the Druid. Ok. now you did that with your 4 friends because they were a pally 2 sorcs and a barb. Now do it solo. might as well punch everything because that will be more effective. What Both Equinox and I want to avoid is having dud spells and filler spells. These are not fun, they remove from the complexity and interest of the game, and lead to drudgery. If I want all of my skills to be from below or above tier 4 those builds should be ok. Maybe not the best, but usable. This was not the case in D2.
I don't want OP skills, but I think and hope (because I'm an optimist you see) that they have found a way to incorporate cool-downs intelligently and without forcing you to take anything you don't want to. Simply put if you have to take 1 skill from each tier in order to be viable the number of possible builds goes from that 9sum billion or whatever down to something like 2200 is what he was saying. And another thing, I think there might be some misconceptions as to why the cool-downs are there in the first place. Some dev insight on this would be amazing!
Oh and P.S. I quoted it, however, I don't think anyone here is stupid or anything. Just need to stretch their imaginations beyond what they are accustomed to. For example higher tiers may only be graphically impressive and not strictly 'stronger' (this word gets thrown around a lot, but we don't actually know if its true nor precisely what it means (damage or is there more to it than that?)
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
What people seem to be missing is how much this limits build choices. The presence of OP skills, limitations of one skill per tier, and cooldowns, will lead to lines, e.g., builds will compose of a set of skills from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, with careful balance of the line, removing builds within tier or multiples of tiers, thus drastically lowering build diversity to each tier x number of skills x number of tiers - side effect of balancing, vs a permutation of # of skills per class.
I am not sure why we're coming back to DII really...
I honestly never liked the tiered system that much to begin with, but they seemed to have wanted to genuinely balance them this time around. Now, why does Locust Swarm even exist? To spam something before I get my tier 7's? Disgusting.
What exactly is wrong with limits? I like Chess you know but I really wish I could just move every piece like the queen. All these limits are holding back my ability to play thhe game the way I want to.
Hope you saw what I just did there.
On a totally unrelated note, you do realize that we left the original purpose of this conversation back some where in Alaska. Right now we're arguing about how Tier systems depreciate the value of entry level skills when we are suppose to be talking about the introduction of massive CDs in the Diablo game system.
What people seem to be missing is how much this limits build choices. The presence of OP skills, limitations of one skill per tier, and cooldowns, will lead to lines, e.g., builds will compose of a set of skills from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, with careful balance of the line, removing builds within tier or multiples of tiers, thus drastically lowering build diversity to each tier x number of skills x number of tiers - side effect of balancing, vs a permutation of # of skills per class.
I am not sure why we're coming back to DII really...
I honestly never liked the tiered system that much to begin with, but they seemed to have wanted to genuinely balance them this time around. Now, why does Locust Swarm even exist? To spam something before I get my tier 7's? Disgusting.
What exactly is wrong with limits? I like Chess you know but I really wish I could just move every piece like the queen. All these limits are holding back my ability to play thhe game the way I want to.
Hope you saw what I just did there.
On a totally unrelated note, you do realize that we left the original purpose of this conversation back some where in Alaska. Right now we're arguing about how Tier systems depreciate the value of entry level skills when we are suppose to be talking about the introduction of massive CDs in the Diablo game system.
Wed didn't leave it in alaska lol, Its here in a form. We are talking about how they used cooldowns to somehow balance out lower tiered skills to higher tiered skills but its complete BS and won't work very well in my opinion. To people saying oh it won't be fun to get every skill at lvl 1, yeah it would be. If they provide a nice variety of different skills ,limit you to 7 of these 50 something skills, and allow you to choose any single of of them at lvl 1 then all you are doing is allowing the player to choose his style of play instead of being forced into a cookie cutter build. Assuming all the skills are basically balanced and what not. This just leaves it up to the player weather he decides to go with locust swarm/pit of fire/parasite/zombie wall/spirit walk/zombie dogs/poison dart OR spirit walk/gargantuan/plague of toads/hex/soul harvest/mass confusion and firebats. And with both builds being equal in value and allow you to beat the game with somewhat of a challenge. In my opinion this accomplishes more customization and diversity than the current tiered model of skills and allows for a more fun gameplay.
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Ok a good point in a way, but I think it leaves out some things. Lets stay first with the WD shall we.
Now if I wanted I could say pick Poison Dart, Zombie Charge, Locust swarm, Firebomb, Pit of Fire, Spirit Barrage, and Parasite. Now since each ability is totally equal at any level I've just destroyed the idea of amassing a ton of undead. I'm not using the staple of the class the Zombie dog, or the frogs. I'm picking as much direct damage as I can.
Why not play a Wizard? Bet I could do that with a DH as well. How do you get players to use the class like it is intended is my question. Your right that players are "forced" to play the classes in a few different ways. My argument is that from a developers stand point, how can they really keep the classes different.
All these limits cause is a set amount of variety. Case in point, if your going to play a WD your going to either have Plague Frogs or Zombie Dogs, that is a massive flavor component. Are you going to continue with the army of critters with Corpse Spiders, maybe get a Zombie Charger, or do you want to get some DoT with a Haunting spirit?
Games are fun because they offer you choices, but limitless choices leads to a one way build in the end of everything. An average build around the absolutely best abilities will exist. Don't know if this analogy works but Superman is not as popular as Batman for a reason, he works with limits. If you let me choose abilities that every class has that destroy things in the safest way possible, then I would likely do that. (hypothetically, not really, I live on the edge)
Ok a good point in a way, but I think it leaves out some things. Lets stay first with the WD shall we.
Now if I wanted I could say pick Poison Dart, Zombie Charge, Locust swarm, Firebomb, Pit of Fire, Spirit Barrage, and Parasite. Now since each ability is totally equal at any level I've just destroyed the idea of amassing a ton of undead. I'm not using the staple of the class the Zombie dog, or the frogs. I'm picking as much direct damage as I can.
Why not play a Wizard? Bet I could do that with a DH as well. How do you get players to use the class like it is intended is my question. Your right that players are "forced" to play the classes in a few different ways. My argument is that from a developers stand point, how can they really keep the classes different.
All these limits cause is a set amount of variety. Case in point, if your going to play a WD your going to either have Plague Frogs or Zombie Dogs, that is a massive flavor component. Are you going to continue with the army of critters with Corpse Spiders, maybe get a Zombie Charger, or do you want to get some DoT with a Haunting spirit?
Games are fun because they offer you choices, but limitless choices leads to a one way build in the end of everything. An average build around the absolutely best abilities will exist. Don't know if this analogy works but Superman is not as popular as Batman for a reason, he works with limits. If you let me choose abilities that every class has that destroy things in the safest way possible, then I would likely do that. (hypothetically, not really, I live on the edge)
It is what keeps us coming back to the same class, do you like dark voodoo magic, do you like magic of different elements, are you a ranged melee person who is into gadgets, are you a quick combo type of guy or do you just like smashing all shit to hell. that is what will separate the classes. And by providing a wide enough variety of skills for each class will have players choosing a class they enjoy playing as but keeping a lot more variety by leading to no absolute one build because each build is equally as viable. that is all i ask from diablo 3 allow me to play the way I want and intend to so that i can enjoy it as much as possible without having to look online for skill guides, and when to save up SP and when to spend it in what skill. It is cookie cutter and I am against cookie cutter builds. They kill half the fun of the game.
To the WD, What if i don't want Zombie dogs, or plague of frogs, say i choose my build as skip tier 1, go straight to corpse spiders and haunt, then go with hex and grasp of the dead, then to firebats, then wall of zombies, then spirit walk
Perfectly viable build don't ya think, eh WRONG. Because obviously going up in tiers will increase damage why would i choose corpse spider when i choose pit of fire? It makes no sense to choose corpse spiders anymore because the spiders will go and attack enemies i set them loose upon same with he fetishes spawned by pit of fire, yet pit of fire will inevitably do more damage, thus creating an imbalance between all the spells.
This makes me frustrated because i'd rather have spiders, but due to blizzards tiered skill system which is in almost every game these days, I'm forced to either use corpse spider as a stepping stone or wait it out and get pit of fire, because it will inevitable be a "better build" which will result in a cookie cutter type scenario which is exactly what I am against.
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It may be true that higher tier skills do more damage. Are you forgetting about resource. In the case of the wd. Could be pit of fire uses 4x the mana that the tier 1 skill does. Yes it does double damage (Could balance out with runes but I'll discount that for now). So you cast pit of fire twice and have no mana and can't cast it again.
There is no potion spamming, yes there are orbs but I doubt they'll balance it so you can use a high tier spell endlessly regardless of cool downs.
So what do you do then? Die because your high tier spell is to resource heavy?
Orbs are out, potions are in, Not spammable but there, and I'm sure pit of fire doesn't cost that much by the time you actually get it, plus with traits and runes you can get it to cost as much as a tier 1 skill probably.
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Well with the WD we already have two choices that will have us go back at least once Plague or Dogs. This isn't including how the runes can alter these, just think of how we've seen Plague of Frogs change. Now I agree that cookie cutting builds suck, but I don't think the tiered choices make or break that fear. If you can just choose whatever by waiting that doesn't mean there won't be an optimal build. It just means you have to play in basic melee combat longer till you get the skill you want, that is something blizzard has stated they wanted to avoid.
Another point worth bring up is that Blizzard has some design around every class with these abilities. You are either a Dog or Frog, a Bola Shot, Grenades, a Magic Missle, or Spectral blades, and more of course. These are your foundation skills. You pick Toads and that will affect your choice of the next tier. I seem to remember it once being said that tiers are more about the choice of an ability more than the grade of power of it.
WD is my last choice of a class but looking at what is the suppose tiers I will try and show you what I mean.
If I go Dogs I think I would go Charger, then Sacrifice, then Fire Bats, then Fire Bomb, Gargantuan, and Fetish Army
If I go Frogs I woud go spiders, then Grasp of the Dead (something about holding a mob while creepy crawlies kill him sounds fun,) locust swarm, then Horrify, and Mass Confusion, and then Spirit Barrage.
That is just two builds not even accounting for Runes. One is an army of what I imagine to be heavy hitters, the other a massive DoT army that rips apart massive army of confused and scared demons. It is limited but hardly cookie cutter.
In response to Pikke, Try going through D2 with the only skill you want to use being Fissure on the Druid. Ok. now you did that with your 4 friends because they were a pally 2 sorcs and a barb. Now do it solo. might as well punch everything because that will be more effective.
Actually I tried it and in SP (I was not much in MP) and as you stated it doesn't work and it's not funny.
But you have to remember that Blizzard is willing to have people cooperate in MP so a bunch of the builds not viable in SP would be viable in MP since in MP you can be a big hitter or a support or a crowd control or anything else, right?
What Both Equinox and I want to avoid is having dud spells and filler spells
I agree and have to point out that in the first post I made I tried to explain (rather inefficiently, I guess) how we may be able to use Traits, Gems, Runes and Items stats to meddle with skills damage amount and CD, so we can balance things out and go for many different builds.
I don't want OP skills, but I think and hope (because I'm an optimist you see) that they have found a way to incorporate cool-downs intelligently and without forcing you to take anything you don't want to.
Quote from "Equinox" »
The presence of OP skills, limitations of one skill per tier, and cooldowns, will lead to lines, e.g., builds will compose of a set of skills from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, with careful balance of the line, removing builds within tier or multiples of tiers, thus drastically lowering build diversity to each tier x number of skills x number of tiers - side effect of balancing, vs a permutation of # of skills per class.
I think an intelligently incorporated use of cooldowns (using your words since I agree on this) can help to achieve more variety, not reduce it.
I have to admit I don't know if we are limited to one skill x tier, I thought hirelings have this limitation not our characters. My fault.
Oh and P.S. I quoted it, however, I don't think anyone here is stupid or anything. Just need to stretch their imaginations beyond what they are accustomed to. For example higher tiers may only be graphically impressive and not strictly 'stronger' (this word gets thrown around a lot, but we don't actually know if its true nor precisely what it means (damage or is there more to it than that?)
Having "less powerful" skills in the beginning and achieving "stronger" ones while you play through the game is a way to let you feel you are improving and your character is growing stronger and even gives you an "intermediate goal" to achieve on the way to get your "perfect build"
Last but not least, Blizz has the tricky job to balance stuff so that you and I are satisfied with the game and would buy it. There are people which likes to have UberPowerfullAwesomeLookingSkills and people which likes to have a more balanced approach, so you have to give a biscuit each.
If we are down to "just" 2200 builds (honestly the 96andso billions is just for show) I know I won't be able to try out half of them.
Not being a "melee" player I think I will play more WD, DH and Wizard than Monk or Barbarian, so this will cut a lot from that 96 billions stuff.
I dunno how much time you or equinox have to play but I think not even putting all your chars togheter you will be able to play all the 96billions possible (if not viable) builds (otherwise I'll envy you sooooooooo much). Have fun!
Orbs are out, potions are in, Not spammable but there, and I'm sure pit of fire doesn't cost that much by the time you actually get it, plus with traits and runes you can get it to cost as much as a tier 1 skill probably.
Timeout! When did they announce potions are back in the game?
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I'm talking overpowered in terms of damage and stuff. like if you have a skill that makes you invulnerable for a minute thats just too Op'ed and its a bunch of Bs i'd rather have normal skills that aren't op'ed like that but a wide variety to choose from so i can tailor my build to my liking.
I just had to sign up and make an account so I could reply to the rubbish that has been stated above.
One of the MAIN things that made Diablo 2 fun was SPAMMING your strongest skills. Oh the nostalgia of running around with your high level sorceress and SPAMMING ice orb was the most fun I have had in any game I have ever played. What the hell are you talking about that it is not fun!!!!
And second of all - the Diablo series is foremost and primarily a HACK'N'SLASH game... That means plowing through mobs with ease and comfort!!! That is what made Diablo 2 so successful!!! No one would have been playing Diablo 2 for freaking 8 years if you couldn't do these things mentioned above. THEY WERE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN THE GAMEPLAY OF DIABLO FFS!
It is this total pwnage gameplay that makes Diablo, Diablo.
PS: I don't mean any offence, just personal opinion.
Its a matter of scaling. Remember there are 2 ways to increase the power of any given skill and each has a different way of promoting scaling and that is without including gear
-1 is by adding ranks. Everyone is comfortable with this as it is very familiar. The scaling factor Blizz had for this was the temporary skill rank max (from 5 to 15 later) which meant that at Clevel X you could re-set the power of all spells available at that point so that each one is equal at rank 6.
-->An example Wanda the Wizard has Magic Missile, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Arcane orb, and Disintegrate. and is level 19. Any skill here can be at level 5 but only at level 20 can any skill go above level 5. all of the firs 5 tiers can have their power at rank 6 be similar to the tier 6 skills. Wanda levels and can can a higher DPS skill equally from one of the soft maxed early skills or take a new skill that is at that level. Do this again with a soft limit at 10 after getting all possible tiers and any spell at rank 11 (at maybe clevel 35-40) can be of similar power.
-2 is runes! Everyone seems to forget that there are 7 tiers of runes that you can add to skills and not just 1. Why is that? probably so Blizz can use them to balance out the skills in different tiers. Even a rank 1 rune in a skill makes it more powerful in addition to changing it, so if they use the 7 ranks effectively then they can make even the skills you put 1 rank into viable at the end of Hell in some way, especially if these tend to be the low/no damage abilities. (remember skill ranks are limited runes are not
Also, cool-downs != loss of strategy. They do not necessarily promote strategy, but Blizz is trying to make the higher level skills more strategic (this is also why they are not available at earlier levels along with the idea of easing players into the game). All of this is dependent on implementation which Beta will hopefully address. A lot of the high tier skills also tend to be duration effectively reducing the cooldown anyway (imagine a 3 min. cool-down on thunderstorm. its actually less than 20 sec). Again with the play-testing.
AS I type this, I believe it was entity that had an example of Locust swarm, Pit of Fire, or parasite. To that I say Locus swarm is not static (it moves with the monsters)AoE, Pit of Fire is Static AoE and Parasit is single target. I would never use parasite on a group of fallen, nor (because they flee) would I use Pit of fire. Pit of Fire would work just fine on Goatmen, but Parasite I would use on the leader who stands in the back. All useful (assuming the damage is scaled intelligently) and all ineffective at a job the others excel at. I would also like to point out that the lowest tier skill(as far as we know), is the simplest to use.
I may rant more later, but I feel this post got away from me
2. You misunderstand runes i see. Runes don't necessarily increase damage. There are a few that do but not all do, mostly runes are there to change the way a skill works. I know for ray of frost there is one that makes it build up to a higher max damage percent but the trade off is it starts lower, but if you put indigo in it it becomes an AoE vortex that has no increased damage. So runing a skill will not make it better per se but it will change the way you use the skill and the playstyle.
3. there is only one thing i agree with cooldowns that most of the time the skill will be in effect already while the cooldown is in effect thus making it a slower time. But i would still like to cast multiple thunderstorms or blizzards over a wide range of areas so even in their futile attempt to escape they freeze and die.
I am not sure why we're coming back to DII really...
I honestly never liked the tiered system that much to begin with, but they seemed to have wanted to genuinely balance them this time around. Now, why does Locust Swarm even exist? To spam something before I get my tier 7's? Disgusting.
Yes, maybe I'm too dumb (a definite possibility) but I really can't comprehend you on that.
You want all the builds to be different but still viable in the same way because otherwise some builds will be more effective than others? Don't you like the challenge of beating the game in an unusual way? Just to prove you can do it? Are you jealous of people who prefer to play the perfect build and you feel compelled to play the same build they have?
I like the challenge to find out which are the better builds as much as I like to explore different builds just to test out how they work and try to beat the game with them.
Lower tier skills exist because they will give you a feeling of progression through the game.
You level up and your character grow stronger and get stronger skills.
In order to attempt to make lower tier skills viable they added cooldowns.
All skills unlocked at level one? I'm against it. I would be forced to pick up 7 skills in the beginning and play them through all Acts in each difficulty level.....boring.
What? There's no limitations of one skill per tier. That would suck balls.
As for 1, they can have a set range +mods, but more to the point, I am not saying that the damage is equal. I tried to specifically say the skill was comparable; so damage, resource, cool-down, utility, etc, all factor into that.
As for 2, Yea, I saw the RoF vids as well, and at one point I specifically asked if all runes added damage including the ones that had major changes to how the skill functioned, because I thought it would be cool If runes did not typically affect damage, however the different levels of runes made this seem less likely, and indeed the answer I got back was 'yes, all runes to damage skills add to the damage to some degree as well as the other changes they grant.' So one of us is mistaken and we will have to wait on further info in order to know (or more likely we are both right, just at different stages of development.)
As for 3 Thunderstorms didn't stack in D2...?
Equinox is right here to a point. If Blizz falls on its face and fail to balance the lower tier skills with the higher tier skills and put some hack job cool-down 'balance' (not real balance but claimed balance) then you will need the lower tier skills to 'fill the space' as it were. However, I am sure that there is a way to do it 'right' being that I can go the entire game with my primary damage skill being what I want and have precisely what I want for my other 6 skills (regardless of tier rank) and be viable. In response to Pikke, Try going through D2 with the only skill you want to use being Fissure on the Druid. Ok. now you did that with your 4 friends because they were a pally 2 sorcs and a barb. Now do it solo. might as well punch everything because that will be more effective. What Both Equinox and I want to avoid is having dud spells and filler spells. These are not fun, they remove from the complexity and interest of the game, and lead to drudgery. If I want all of my skills to be from below or above tier 4 those builds should be ok. Maybe not the best, but usable. This was not the case in D2.
I don't want OP skills, but I think and hope (because I'm an optimist you see) that they have found a way to incorporate cool-downs intelligently and without forcing you to take anything you don't want to. Simply put if you have to take 1 skill from each tier in order to be viable the number of possible builds goes from that 9sum billion or whatever down to something like 2200 is what he was saying. And another thing, I think there might be some misconceptions as to why the cool-downs are there in the first place. Some dev insight on this would be amazing!
Oh and P.S. I quoted it, however, I don't think anyone here is stupid or anything. Just need to stretch their imaginations beyond what they are accustomed to. For example higher tiers may only be graphically impressive and not strictly 'stronger' (this word gets thrown around a lot, but we don't actually know if its true nor precisely what it means (damage or is there more to it than that?)
What exactly is wrong with limits? I like Chess you know but I really wish I could just move every piece like the queen. All these limits are holding back my ability to play thhe game the way I want to.
Hope you saw what I just did there.
On a totally unrelated note, you do realize that we left the original purpose of this conversation back some where in Alaska. Right now we're arguing about how Tier systems depreciate the value of entry level skills when we are suppose to be talking about the introduction of massive CDs in the Diablo game system.
Wed didn't leave it in alaska lol, Its here in a form. We are talking about how they used cooldowns to somehow balance out lower tiered skills to higher tiered skills but its complete BS and won't work very well in my opinion. To people saying oh it won't be fun to get every skill at lvl 1, yeah it would be. If they provide a nice variety of different skills ,limit you to 7 of these 50 something skills, and allow you to choose any single of of them at lvl 1 then all you are doing is allowing the player to choose his style of play instead of being forced into a cookie cutter build. Assuming all the skills are basically balanced and what not. This just leaves it up to the player weather he decides to go with locust swarm/pit of fire/parasite/zombie wall/spirit walk/zombie dogs/poison dart OR spirit walk/gargantuan/plague of toads/hex/soul harvest/mass confusion and firebats. And with both builds being equal in value and allow you to beat the game with somewhat of a challenge. In my opinion this accomplishes more customization and diversity than the current tiered model of skills and allows for a more fun gameplay.
Now if I wanted I could say pick Poison Dart, Zombie Charge, Locust swarm, Firebomb, Pit of Fire, Spirit Barrage, and Parasite. Now since each ability is totally equal at any level I've just destroyed the idea of amassing a ton of undead. I'm not using the staple of the class the Zombie dog, or the frogs. I'm picking as much direct damage as I can.
Why not play a Wizard? Bet I could do that with a DH as well. How do you get players to use the class like it is intended is my question. Your right that players are "forced" to play the classes in a few different ways. My argument is that from a developers stand point, how can they really keep the classes different.
All these limits cause is a set amount of variety. Case in point, if your going to play a WD your going to either have Plague Frogs or Zombie Dogs, that is a massive flavor component. Are you going to continue with the army of critters with Corpse Spiders, maybe get a Zombie Charger, or do you want to get some DoT with a Haunting spirit?
Games are fun because they offer you choices, but limitless choices leads to a one way build in the end of everything. An average build around the absolutely best abilities will exist. Don't know if this analogy works but Superman is not as popular as Batman for a reason, he works with limits. If you let me choose abilities that every class has that destroy things in the safest way possible, then I would likely do that. (hypothetically, not really, I live on the edge)
It is what keeps us coming back to the same class, do you like dark voodoo magic, do you like magic of different elements, are you a ranged melee person who is into gadgets, are you a quick combo type of guy or do you just like smashing all shit to hell. that is what will separate the classes. And by providing a wide enough variety of skills for each class will have players choosing a class they enjoy playing as but keeping a lot more variety by leading to no absolute one build because each build is equally as viable. that is all i ask from diablo 3 allow me to play the way I want and intend to so that i can enjoy it as much as possible without having to look online for skill guides, and when to save up SP and when to spend it in what skill. It is cookie cutter and I am against cookie cutter builds. They kill half the fun of the game.
To the WD, What if i don't want Zombie dogs, or plague of frogs, say i choose my build as skip tier 1, go straight to corpse spiders and haunt, then go with hex and grasp of the dead, then to firebats, then wall of zombies, then spirit walk
Perfectly viable build don't ya think, eh WRONG. Because obviously going up in tiers will increase damage why would i choose corpse spider when i choose pit of fire? It makes no sense to choose corpse spiders anymore because the spiders will go and attack enemies i set them loose upon same with he fetishes spawned by pit of fire, yet pit of fire will inevitably do more damage, thus creating an imbalance between all the spells.
This makes me frustrated because i'd rather have spiders, but due to blizzards tiered skill system which is in almost every game these days, I'm forced to either use corpse spider as a stepping stone or wait it out and get pit of fire, because it will inevitable be a "better build" which will result in a cookie cutter type scenario which is exactly what I am against.
There is no potion spamming, yes there are orbs but I doubt they'll balance it so you can use a high tier spell endlessly regardless of cool downs.
So what do you do then? Die because your high tier spell is to resource heavy?
Another point worth bring up is that Blizzard has some design around every class with these abilities. You are either a Dog or Frog, a Bola Shot, Grenades, a Magic Missle, or Spectral blades, and more of course. These are your foundation skills. You pick Toads and that will affect your choice of the next tier. I seem to remember it once being said that tiers are more about the choice of an ability more than the grade of power of it.
WD is my last choice of a class but looking at what is the suppose tiers I will try and show you what I mean.
If I go Dogs I think I would go Charger, then Sacrifice, then Fire Bats, then Fire Bomb, Gargantuan, and Fetish Army
If I go Frogs I woud go spiders, then Grasp of the Dead (something about holding a mob while creepy crawlies kill him sounds fun,) locust swarm, then Horrify, and Mass Confusion, and then Spirit Barrage.
That is just two builds not even accounting for Runes. One is an army of what I imagine to be heavy hitters, the other a massive DoT army that rips apart massive army of confused and scared demons. It is limited but hardly cookie cutter.
Actually I tried it and in SP (I was not much in MP) and as you stated it doesn't work and it's not funny.
But you have to remember that Blizzard is willing to have people cooperate in MP so a bunch of the builds not viable in SP would be viable in MP since in MP you can be a big hitter or a support or a crowd control or anything else, right?
I agree and have to point out that in the first post I made I tried to explain (rather inefficiently, I guess) how we may be able to use Traits, Gems, Runes and Items stats to meddle with skills damage amount and CD, so we can balance things out and go for many different builds.
Also I agree with this statement.
I think an intelligently incorporated use of cooldowns (using your words since I agree on this) can help to achieve more variety, not reduce it.
I have to admit I don't know if we are limited to one skill x tier, I thought hirelings have this limitation not our characters. My fault.
Having "less powerful" skills in the beginning and achieving "stronger" ones while you play through the game is a way to let you feel you are improving and your character is growing stronger and even gives you an "intermediate goal" to achieve on the way to get your "perfect build"
Last but not least, Blizz has the tricky job to balance stuff so that you and I are satisfied with the game and would buy it. There are people which likes to have UberPowerfullAwesomeLookingSkills and people which likes to have a more balanced approach, so you have to give a biscuit each.
If we are down to "just" 2200 builds (honestly the 96andso billions is just for show) I know I won't be able to try out half of them.
Not being a "melee" player I think I will play more WD, DH and Wizard than Monk or Barbarian, so this will cut a lot from that 96 billions stuff.
I dunno how much time you or equinox have to play but I think not even putting all your chars togheter you will be able to play all the 96billions possible (if not viable) builds (otherwise I'll envy you sooooooooo much). Have fun!
Timeout! When did they announce potions are back in the game?