I've posted what I wrote here in the official forums and I'm writing it here as well for people that browse only this forum and no the official forums
the link to the post on official forums: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13660806275?page=1
As you all know most people will use a RoRG whether they need it or not to optimize their gear as much as possible making the RoRG a mandatory part of it.
While some people aren't lucky enough to find a RoRG and therefore their gear will be less optimized then the ones that do have a RoRG.
The problem with this is that people confuse the Legendary affix of the ring to the ring itself being mandatory. While in reality the ring itself isn't worth anything and only its set reduction legendary affix is what people look for.
So a suggestion I want to make is adding the set reduction bonus from the ring into paragon(replacing the gold find since compared to all the other paragon points it's the only one that won't help you in fights, aside from using the Goldwrap legendary belt).
In order to get the bonus you will have to invest 50 points in it(the minimum paragon lvl to get it will be 200) as each point will give you 0.02 towards the bonus for a maximum of 1 at 50 points invested.
However I'm not asking for the RoRG or its bonus to be removed instead I will ask for it to remain as it is and just add the bonus to paragon as well. HOWEVER the bonuses from the ring and the paragon WON'T STACK so it won't be too op for people that reached lvl 200 AND got the ring as well. i.e. if you use both the ring and the paragon bonus you will still get only 1 set reduction bonus and not 2.
It will instead be an alternative for people that didn't get any ring by the time they reached paragon lvl 200.
And for people that did get the ring, they will have an option to replace it with a different ring to further customize their gear. i.e. a DH will be able to use a SoJ AND a Natalya's Reflection ring for the extra set bonuses of the Natalya set. Or people will start using the set jewelries such as the Focus and Restraint set.
Or in other cases replacing a badly rolled RoRG for a better rolled legendary ring that the player was able to find.
Also considering the fact that some people will start using the new legendary gems they will simply get the option to replace a RoRG for another ring with a socket without the need to spend gold to reroll one of the stats on a RoRG to a socket.
By adding the RoRG bonus to paragon while not removing the RoRG itself will give people 3 more options as well:
1) Not farm the ring at all and play the game until they reach paragon lvl 200. This case is for people that don't like the grinding aspect of getting a RoRG, which currently most people don't.
2) Farm the ring from the start and start to lvl to paragon 200 after they got the ring, and replace it with another once they hit paragon 200. This case is for people that were lucky enough to get the set pieces that they needed before reaching paragon 200.
3) Farm the ring from the start and use it until they reach paragon 800. Since it's paragon, people can choose to get the set reduction once they hit 200 or at a later level instead.
Since it's PTR I hope Blizzard will see this thread and consider adding it to the game as it will solve lots of issues for those that did get the ring and for those that didn't get it.
Also people that wish to get the ring removed, it is a bad idea since some of the builds require to have it. i.e. Jade WD requires having the Quetzalcoatl Voodoo Mask and 5 parts of jade set for the full dmg of the bonus(without the mask they deal half the dmg). Or a Crusader with perma Akarat(that is using a 2-h weapon and not a 1-h one) will need to use the capt. crimson set in combination with akkhan to get the perma akarat.
Please write your opinion about my suggestion and any suggestions if it can be improved. And if most opinions are positive, then with some hope Blizzard will see it and add it to the game
P.S.
Before people will start saying that I'm one of the whiners that didn't get a RoRG after countless hours of farming, I already found 11 RoRGs so your argument is invalid.
IMO the damn thing was brain-damaged to start with, mainly because it applies to all sets that you're currently wearing. Ideally, it'd only apply to one set at a time, but there's really no elegant way for the player to choose which set it should apply to. IMO they should just retcon the affix out of existence... at which point their numbers will show that only 6 people and a single incredibly smart parrot are still doing bounties.
I don't think the 0.02 set item requirement reduction is the perfect idea, since it isn't really appealing to the random casual noob at paragon level 18 to invest points into. I'm not trying to say that gold is attractive, just that the set item requirement reduction is completely useless until paragon 200, if done this way.
This.
By your suggestion, it would essentially be 49 points of Utility tab Paragon points that are utterly useless. You'd be pumping a point into this every fourth Paragon level until 200, when, *poof*, all of a sudden, it gives you something. That's totally counter to the way the Paragon system works now. Even if you're only getting +1% gold find, or +0.1% Crit Chance, you're gettingsomething for each point you spend. Combine that with the fact that given the way things are currently structured, people are going to feel obligated to put those first 50 points in Utility into Set Reduction, and you're still not getting away from the feeling of "this is mandatory, if you don't have/do this, you're wrong".
Frankly, I see no issue with the RoRG as it currently stands, and I say that not because I have mine covered. I do, in fact, have RoRG's on the characters I want/need them on, but I still run bounties, for a couple reasons. 1) I want better rolls on a couple of my RoRG's. 2) I like keeping a steady stock of key fragments (which, granted, will be less of a concern come 2.1, but still). 3) It's fun. Granted, this is "to each their own", but running bounties is a nice break from the repeated rift runs from time to time. I also don't spend all my play time JUST farming for RoRG's, if you feel that you're bogged down in the search for one, do something else, play a different character, go outside, whatever the case may be. But for me, bounties are something I can do easy enough when also doing something else like watching TV.
The only alternative that would eliminate the "farm" mentality of the RoRG would be to make it crafted instead, but if you do that, then it's "too easy" to get, and people will complain about that, and say "why not just adjust all set bonuses down one, and make the effect native?", and that really gets us nowhere.
There will always be a BiS item (mathematical fact guys) and the sooner we stop fighting, the sooner we will have peace.
Yeah, but if that BiS item is the same for every class and every build, you've got problems, and RROG is particularly problematic, because not only is it a tough slot to upgrade, it also makes other slots hard to upgrade.
Why not just make it drop from all bounty caches? Remove the A1 exclusivity. Hell, make it drop out in the world, too! It'd still obviously be rare as piss. I've never seen a Thunderfury or Shard of Hate, so it's not like this is going to magically make everyone get them instantly.
There will always be a BiS item (mathematical fact guys) and the sooner we stop fighting, the sooner we will have peace.
Yeah, but if that BiS item is the same for every class and every build, you've got problems, and RROG is particularly problematic, because not only is it a tough slot to upgrade, it also makes other slots hard to upgrade.
This.
I'm OK with BiS items, but I think it's healthier for the game if they're on a spec-by-spec basis. I'm not fond of items that are across-the-board BiS. It makes me think back to Enigma in D2 and why it was bad.
That being said RoRG is particularly difficult to balance because its bonus means that it has to be balanced against other rings but that every other slot has to be balanced against itself. One of the reasons that Zunis and JH WDs use RoRG is because both Mask of Jeram and Quetzalcoatl are significantly stronger than the set helms. So even if RoRG was balanced against other rings, it would still be "necessary" for those builds because there's a fundamental power differential between those helms.
Quote fromClyphord
Why not just make it drop from all bounty caches? Remove the A1 exclusivity. Hell, make it drop out in the world, too! It'd still obviously be rare as piss. I've never seen a Thunderfury or Shard of Hate, so it's not like this is going to magically make everyone get them instantly.
Allowing it to drop in any act would be a decent start. The fact that such a powerful item is obtainable only from bounties in a specific act means that bounties in other acts are, instantly, less-interesting. I've started to do all A1-4 bounties per game now instead of just doing A1 bounties and it's actually more enjoyable because I'm repeating less content. It keeps everything feeling "fresher."
I can do this because, at the moment, I'm not looking for a RoRG. It's liberating. It makes the game feel significantly more fun even though bounties aren't as rewarding as they should be as compared with rifts. Adding variety is the single biggest thing they can do to encourage longevity. RoRG, unfortunately, removes variety.
RORG is mandatory and that sucks.. but you're making it sound as if it's a hard ring to farm. It's not. Especially not now that caches scale with torment difficulties.
I don't think the 0.02 set item requirement reduction is the perfect idea, since it isn't really appealing to the random casual noob at paragon level 18 to invest points into. I'm not trying to say that gold is attractive, just that the set item requirement reduction is completely useless until paragon 200, if done this way.
Alternatively it could be a flat out bonus for paragon 500 or whatever. I'd put it above 200, but I guess my opinion of low paragon levels is utterly ruined because I was 400 before ROS even came out...
I don't think the 0.02 set item requirement reduction is the perfect idea, since it isn't really appealing to the random casual noob at paragon level 18 to invest points into. I'm not trying to say that gold is attractive, just that the set item requirement reduction is completely useless until paragon 200, if done this way.
This.
By your suggestion, it would essentially be 49 points of Utility tab Paragon points that are utterly useless. You'd be pumping a point into this every fourth Paragon level until 200, when, *poof*, all of a sudden, it gives you something. That's totally counter to the way the Paragon system works now. Even if you're only getting +1% gold find, or +0.1% Crit Chance, you're gettingsomething for each point you spend. Combine that with the fact that given the way things are currently structured, people are going to feel obligated to put those first 50 points in Utility into Set Reduction, and you're still not getting away from the feeling of "this is mandatory, if you don't have/do this, you're wrong".
Frankly, I see no issue with the RoRG as it currently stands, and I say that not because I have mine covered. I do, in fact, have RoRG's on the characters I want/need them on, but I still run bounties, for a couple reasons. 1) I want better rolls on a couple of my RoRG's. 2) I like keeping a steady stock of key fragments (which, granted, will be less of a concern come 2.1, but still). 3) It's fun. Granted, this is "to each their own", but running bounties is a nice break from the repeated rift runs from time to time. I also don't spend all my play time JUST farming for RoRG's, if you feel that you're bogged down in the search for one, do something else, play a different character, go outside, whatever the case may be. But for me, bounties are something I can do easy enough when also doing something else like watching TV.
The only alternative that would eliminate the "farm" mentality of the RoRG would be to make it crafted instead, but if you do that, then it's "too easy" to get, and people will complain about that, and say "why not just adjust all set bonuses down one, and make the effect native?", and that really gets us nowhere.
I'm not saying I 100% agree with this plan, though it does have merit, but you wouldn't need to "waste" any points investing in it along the way, as you could easily reset your paragon once you hit level 200. Its not like people would be sitting there stacking points in it before then as it wouldn't do a damn thing prior to hitting 200 and throwing all 50 points at it.
There will always be a BiS item (mathematical fact guys) and the sooner we stop fighting, the sooner we will have peace.
Yeah for most classes / builds it will be hands down. Kind of sad but then again I did put in the time to farm mine for all my toons and then rebuilt two of my classes to not use it.
Solution: Quit farming on low difficulties. Crank that shit to T6 run a handful of bounties and you will have your ring. This is not a hard item to get, it's like farming kadala. You know where it drops, it's not like it's a random world drop. In the time it took you to make the two topics you could have probably farmed multiple T6 games and had your ring.
Quote fromAurpona
Solution: Quit farming on low difficulties. Crank that shit to T6 run a handful of bounties and you will have your ring. This is not a hard item to get, it's like farming kadala. You know where it drops, it's not like it's a random world drop. In the time it took you to make the two topics you could have probably farmed multiple T6 games and had your ring.
Quote fromAurpona Solution: Quit farming on low difficulties. Crank that shit to T6 run a handful of bounties and you will have your ring. This is not a hard item to get, it's like farming kadala. You know where it drops, it's not like it's a random world drop. In the time it took you to make the two topics you could have probably farmed multiple T6 games and had your ring.
..lol you think you're farming t6 without a RRoG?
Neither of my chars even USE a RoRG for their builds. Both can do T6 rifts in sub 10 mins solo. Unity+SoJ > RoRG.
Just going to throw out an additional suggestion to support the OP's suggestion.
I like the idea of paragon set reduction, as it allows for greater build diversity. I think in order to make paragon reduction more of a choice, instead of an absolute must-have ASAP, you could implement some minor changes.
1. Some reshuffling of paragon bonuses. Currently the only time you actually stop and think which stat to spend on is in the offense tab. This is because the choices offered are CDR, Crit Chance, Crit Dmg and Atk Spd, which are the 4 most powerful non-legendary stats in the game. If these bonuses were split up somewhat, players would need to make less crucial choices, more often (crit chance or crit dmg / CDR or RCR / Atk spd or primary stat / adventuring bonus or move speed). I could write up a full table if anyone wants, but I think this makes it fairly clear.
2. This is intended to work in conjunction with suggestion 1. A min lvl lockout should be enforced on particular paragon choices (cannot begin to invest in X bonus until plvl 200, meaning plvl 400 required to max the 1st lot of powerful stats - CHD/CDR), so that early levels are less rewarding (still decent), while later levels would be more rewarding. I would personally opt for paragon set reduction to hold the highest lvl requirement, as it is agreed that this effect is more powerful than anything else in the game (albeit indirectly).
3.Consider modifying some of the paragon bonuses to be more competitive, I am looking at you gold find and mana pool bonus. These options could be swapped out for magic find and resource regen/generation (this would need some tinkering to balance effect for all classes, particularly barbarian).
4. An alternative option would be to simply add the set bonus reduction as a guaranteed bonus at plvl 800 (when everything is maxed, except for vit/primary). This is different to the OP's suggestion because this bonus would not be accessible through paragon, but simply bestowed like an achievement reward. The idea of this bonus is to provide end-game viable builds, and improved build diversity. The bonus itself may provide a reason for players to remain in game until plvl 800.
To clarify, points 1 - 3 are intended to be implemented together, with an additional option being to also include point 4. Alternatively points 1 - 3 could be ignored and only point 4 be implemented. It should also be noted that if point 4 is implemented, the presence of set reduction bonus in paragon should not be implemented, as this would otherwise cause overlaps/unnecessary paragon bonus.
This implementation would provide an advantage to end-game players, without interfering with a lower level player's interest in farming A1 caches.
Quote fromAurpona Solution: Quit farming on low difficulties. Crank that shit to T6 run a handful of bounties and you will have your ring. This is not a hard item to get, it's like farming kadala. You know where it drops, it's not like it's a random world drop. In the time it took you to make the two topics you could have probably farmed multiple T6 games and had your ring.
..lol you think you're farming t6 without a RRoG?
..lol you think you're required to have a RRoG to farm T6?
The rorg is very strong without any doubt, maybe too strong with the coming of improved sets in 2.1. But items with such strong and special bonus do have a great potential to work against theorycrafters' evil fotm propaganda.
IMO the damn thing was brain-damaged to start with, mainly because it applies to all sets that you're currently wearing. Ideally, it'd only apply to one set at a time, but there's really no elegant way for the player to choose which set it should apply to. IMO they should just retcon the affix out of existence... at which point their numbers will show that only 6 people and a single incredibly smart parrot are still doing bounties.
And how would you get rift keys without running bounties ?
And why crank it up torment levels to get the ring , aren't you adding more drops to the pool ? I have 15 RoRG's now , all from fast running normal bounties .
the link to the post on official forums: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13660806275?page=1
As you all know most people will use a RoRG whether they need it or not to optimize their gear as much as possible making the RoRG a mandatory part of it.
While some people aren't lucky enough to find a RoRG and therefore their gear will be less optimized then the ones that do have a RoRG.
The problem with this is that people confuse the Legendary affix of the ring to the ring itself being mandatory. While in reality the ring itself isn't worth anything and only its set reduction legendary affix is what people look for.
So a suggestion I want to make is adding the set reduction bonus from the ring into paragon(replacing the gold find since compared to all the other paragon points it's the only one that won't help you in fights, aside from using the Goldwrap legendary belt).
In order to get the bonus you will have to invest 50 points in it(the minimum paragon lvl to get it will be 200) as each point will give you 0.02 towards the bonus for a maximum of 1 at 50 points invested.
However I'm not asking for the RoRG or its bonus to be removed instead I will ask for it to remain as it is and just add the bonus to paragon as well. HOWEVER the bonuses from the ring and the paragon WON'T STACK so it won't be too op for people that reached lvl 200 AND got the ring as well. i.e. if you use both the ring and the paragon bonus you will still get only 1 set reduction bonus and not 2.
It will instead be an alternative for people that didn't get any ring by the time they reached paragon lvl 200.
And for people that did get the ring, they will have an option to replace it with a different ring to further customize their gear. i.e. a DH will be able to use a SoJ AND a Natalya's Reflection ring for the extra set bonuses of the Natalya set. Or people will start using the set jewelries such as the Focus and Restraint set.
Or in other cases replacing a badly rolled RoRG for a better rolled legendary ring that the player was able to find.
Also considering the fact that some people will start using the new legendary gems they will simply get the option to replace a RoRG for another ring with a socket without the need to spend gold to reroll one of the stats on a RoRG to a socket.
By adding the RoRG bonus to paragon while not removing the RoRG itself will give people 3 more options as well:
1) Not farm the ring at all and play the game until they reach paragon lvl 200. This case is for people that don't like the grinding aspect of getting a RoRG, which currently most people don't.
2) Farm the ring from the start and start to lvl to paragon 200 after they got the ring, and replace it with another once they hit paragon 200. This case is for people that were lucky enough to get the set pieces that they needed before reaching paragon 200.
3) Farm the ring from the start and use it until they reach paragon 800. Since it's paragon, people can choose to get the set reduction once they hit 200 or at a later level instead.
Since it's PTR I hope Blizzard will see this thread and consider adding it to the game as it will solve lots of issues for those that did get the ring and for those that didn't get it.
Also people that wish to get the ring removed, it is a bad idea since some of the builds require to have it. i.e. Jade WD requires having the Quetzalcoatl Voodoo Mask and 5 parts of jade set for the full dmg of the bonus(without the mask they deal half the dmg). Or a Crusader with perma Akarat(that is using a 2-h weapon and not a 1-h one) will need to use the capt. crimson set in combination with akkhan to get the perma akarat.
Please write your opinion about my suggestion and any suggestions if it can be improved. And if most opinions are positive, then with some hope Blizzard will see it and add it to the game
P.S.
Before people will start saying that I'm one of the whiners that didn't get a RoRG after countless hours of farming, I already found 11 RoRGs so your argument is invalid.
By your suggestion, it would essentially be 49 points of Utility tab Paragon points that are utterly useless. You'd be pumping a point into this every fourth Paragon level until 200, when, *poof*, all of a sudden, it gives you something. That's totally counter to the way the Paragon system works now. Even if you're only getting +1% gold find, or +0.1% Crit Chance, you're gettingsomething for each point you spend. Combine that with the fact that given the way things are currently structured, people are going to feel obligated to put those first 50 points in Utility into Set Reduction, and you're still not getting away from the feeling of "this is mandatory, if you don't have/do this, you're wrong".
Frankly, I see no issue with the RoRG as it currently stands, and I say that not because I have mine covered. I do, in fact, have RoRG's on the characters I want/need them on, but I still run bounties, for a couple reasons. 1) I want better rolls on a couple of my RoRG's. 2) I like keeping a steady stock of key fragments (which, granted, will be less of a concern come 2.1, but still). 3) It's fun. Granted, this is "to each their own", but running bounties is a nice break from the repeated rift runs from time to time. I also don't spend all my play time JUST farming for RoRG's, if you feel that you're bogged down in the search for one, do something else, play a different character, go outside, whatever the case may be. But for me, bounties are something I can do easy enough when also doing something else like watching TV.
The only alternative that would eliminate the "farm" mentality of the RoRG would be to make it crafted instead, but if you do that, then it's "too easy" to get, and people will complain about that, and say "why not just adjust all set bonuses down one, and make the effect native?", and that really gets us nowhere.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
I'm OK with BiS items, but I think it's healthier for the game if they're on a spec-by-spec basis. I'm not fond of items that are across-the-board BiS. It makes me think back to Enigma in D2 and why it was bad.
That being said RoRG is particularly difficult to balance because its bonus means that it has to be balanced against other rings but that every other slot has to be balanced against itself. One of the reasons that Zunis and JH WDs use RoRG is because both Mask of Jeram and Quetzalcoatl are significantly stronger than the set helms. So even if RoRG was balanced against other rings, it would still be "necessary" for those builds because there's a fundamental power differential between those helms.
Allowing it to drop in any act would be a decent start. The fact that such a powerful item is obtainable only from bounties in a specific act means that bounties in other acts are, instantly, less-interesting. I've started to do all A1-4 bounties per game now instead of just doing A1 bounties and it's actually more enjoyable because I'm repeating less content. It keeps everything feeling "fresher."
I can do this because, at the moment, I'm not looking for a RoRG. It's liberating. It makes the game feel significantly more fun even though bounties aren't as rewarding as they should be as compared with rifts. Adding variety is the single biggest thing they can do to encourage longevity. RoRG, unfortunately, removes variety.
..lol you think you're farming t6 without a RRoG?
I like the idea of paragon set reduction, as it allows for greater build diversity. I think in order to make paragon reduction more of a choice, instead of an absolute must-have ASAP, you could implement some minor changes.
1. Some reshuffling of paragon bonuses. Currently the only time you actually stop and think which stat to spend on is in the offense tab. This is because the choices offered are CDR, Crit Chance, Crit Dmg and Atk Spd, which are the 4 most powerful non-legendary stats in the game. If these bonuses were split up somewhat, players would need to make less crucial choices, more often (crit chance or crit dmg / CDR or RCR / Atk spd or primary stat / adventuring bonus or move speed). I could write up a full table if anyone wants, but I think this makes it fairly clear.
2. This is intended to work in conjunction with suggestion 1. A min lvl lockout should be enforced on particular paragon choices (cannot begin to invest in X bonus until plvl 200, meaning plvl 400 required to max the 1st lot of powerful stats - CHD/CDR), so that early levels are less rewarding (still decent), while later levels would be more rewarding. I would personally opt for paragon set reduction to hold the highest lvl requirement, as it is agreed that this effect is more powerful than anything else in the game (albeit indirectly).
3.Consider modifying some of the paragon bonuses to be more competitive, I am looking at you gold find and mana pool bonus. These options could be swapped out for magic find and resource regen/generation (this would need some tinkering to balance effect for all classes, particularly barbarian).
4. An alternative option would be to simply add the set bonus reduction as a guaranteed bonus at plvl 800 (when everything is maxed, except for vit/primary). This is different to the OP's suggestion because this bonus would not be accessible through paragon, but simply bestowed like an achievement reward. The idea of this bonus is to provide end-game viable builds, and improved build diversity. The bonus itself may provide a reason for players to remain in game until plvl 800.
To clarify, points 1 - 3 are intended to be implemented together, with an additional option being to also include point 4. Alternatively points 1 - 3 could be ignored and only point 4 be implemented. It should also be noted that if point 4 is implemented, the presence of set reduction bonus in paragon should not be implemented, as this would otherwise cause overlaps/unnecessary paragon bonus.
This implementation would provide an advantage to end-game players, without interfering with a lower level player's interest in farming A1 caches.
And why crank it up torment levels to get the ring , aren't you adding more drops to the pool ? I have 15 RoRG's now , all from fast running normal bounties .