Hey guys, today I do a follow-up to a video I released almost a year ago on why D3 becomes boring and why each patch/season 'dies' after 1-2 months. Since then, the major issues still persist. I discuss where this stems from - starting with the initial release of the game and snowballing afterwards, the reason for botting, and some possible solutions - including a rework of the paragon system to boost complexity and a runeword system. I wanted to make this before BlizzCon so we can see what, if anything, Blizzard has in store for us. Enjoy & discuss!
And yet on PC, Seasonal and non and on Console the game is very much still alive as is the community years afte release.
Even with modding on consoles and botters on PC I don't really agree the game is dying off because it is "boring"...
Some of your issues in the video are fair but I don't think Blizzard will change anything as significant or major like what you mention.
2.4 and 2.5 will come with new sets and revamped items and I can't see much more for D3...hope I'm wrong and at Blizzcon we shall see.
I'm not saying the game is dying overall, but that's because it keeps being developed. If nothing changed after 2.0 for example, few would continue playing. And that's the point of the video, there are some underlying issues which make it 'die' after 1-2 months into a season for a lot of players, who just stop playing until the next patch.
I think D3 just doesn't get enough frequent updates. It's a grinding game, fine but blizzard just kinda gives it the dicking and d3 is now basically a small side project (especially now because they are launching overwatch).
The game get's easy once you are past a certain level and just revolves about farming paragon levels (zzzzzZZZZZzzzzZZ) and everyone just get's fed off after a couple of weeks. No one buys the game. Not enough financial incentive to make regular new content. Hell we can't even play it offline. I'm not even going to bring up all the botting/exploit shitstorms. There is not enough new content in between seasons + the game is too expensive.
The problem really is how easy the made most of the game, leaving a tiny fraction of it (when you consider the entirety of content in the game) - most of it. And they can't go back now and make gear HARDER to get or make leveling HARDER, people would QQ to no end. So that tiny fraction (grift progression) needs to increase in scope and complexity.
As for the frequency of updates, aside from new game sales and 'paying it forward' so people will buy the next xpac, Blizz doesn't make any money from continuously patching the game. People seem to think they pay for a game once and are entitled to free lifetime updates, when that simply doesn't make sense from a business standpoint (if you get paid do a job, you don't keep doing it for free after it's complete just because you got paid once).
This is why I (along with quite a few others) have been asking for micro transactions for over a year now. Stash tabs, cosmetics, character slots, etc.
This is why I (along with quite a few others) have been asking for micro transactions for over a year now. Stash tabs, cosmetics, character slots, etc.
I agree. Microtransactions will fill in the monetization gap that the RMAH left when it was pulled. I'm for them as long as they don't allow for a play-to-win kind of shift.
I think everyone agrees it's no longer about the loot, but unfortunately at this point there is NO solution to this particular problem. I talked about it in the video - the whole progression process became quicker and quicker with each patch because people whined and Blizz caved. There is only a solution to replay value via non-loot. You know how ancient items were introduced by Blizzard to put some feelers out there and see how people responded? Paramount QQ about 'I didn't get mine'. And the funny thing is, now they made ANCIENT items easier to get via the cube. Can you IMAGINE what would happen if Inferno-drop rate legendary gear was introduced?? Pssh. Game would be done. Nah, you can kiss the loot hunt goodbye.
I think D3 just doesn't get enough frequent updates. It's a grinding game, fine but blizzard just kinda gives it the dicking and d3 is now basically a small side project (especially now because they are launching overwatch).
The game get's easy once you are past a certain level and just revolves about farming paragon levels (zzzzzZZZZZzzzzZZ) and everyone just get's fed off after a couple of weeks. No one buys the game. Not enough financial incentive to make regular new content. Hell we can't even play it offline. I'm not even going to bring up all the botting/exploit shitstorms. There is not enough new content in between seasons + the game is too expensive.
The problem really is how easy the made most of the game, leaving a tiny fraction of it (when you consider the entirety of content in the game) - most of it. And they can't go back now and make gear HARDER to get or make leveling HARDER, people would QQ to no end. So that tiny fraction (grift progression) needs to increase in scope and complexity.
As for the frequency of updates, aside from new game sales and 'paying it forward' so people will buy the next xpac, Blizz doesn't make any money from continuously patching the game. People seem to think they pay for a game once and are entitled to free lifetime updates, when that simply doesn't make sense from a business standpoint (if you get paid do a job, you don't keep doing it for free after it's complete just because you got paid once).
This is why I (along with quite a few others) have been asking for micro transactions for over a year now. Stash tabs, cosmetics, character slots, etc.
I think everyone agrees it's no longer about the loot, but unfortunately at this point there is NO solution to this particular problem. I talked about it in the video - the whole progression process became quicker and quicker with each patch because people whined and Blizz caved. There is only a solution to replay value via non-loot. You know how ancient items were introduced by Blizzard to put some feelers out there and see how people responded? Paramount QQ about 'I didn't get mine'. And the funny thing is, now they made ANCIENT items easier to get via the cube. Can you IMAGINE what would happen if Inferno-drop rate legendary gear was introduced?? Pssh. Game would be done. Nah, you can kiss the loot hunt goodbye.
In the quotes above you mention that
1. you cant make the game "harder" or getting gear harder or people would QQ to no end...
2. the whole progression process became quicker and quicker with each patch because people whined and Blizz caved. and that any regression back to that challenge would be met with ENDLESS whining...
One has to contend with the fact that if the creators of D3 shaped the game around pleasing its players then it would cease to exist.
Why?
For 2 reasons:
1. Because at a primal level the whole world wants things to be "easier" and to be acquired with less effort. who doesn't enjoy acquiring things and acquiring wealth and sleeping more and eating better and doing less work for it all....its almost as basic and expected as breathing....
2. roleplaying games at their absolute core are about taking any concept in your mind and expanding it into a convoluted number system. getting stronger performing tasks to greater effect. in D3's case you level slowly and develop stats and stumble over better and better items.
Making things easier on players and rewarding them sooner...takes the fibre of the roleplaying game and flushes it down the toilet.
on top of that, streamlining and simplifying the number system and boiling it down into damage healing and toughness....steers the game away from players who admire the layered number systems above, namely, RPG fans....and towards those who don't really give a shit. namely the huge majority of gamers the world over....
This is why there was this subtle coat of "frustration paint" over the game when items and leveling was so boring and flavorless...because Blizzard was built on the backs of players who enjoy roleplaying strategy anything basically...they don't want to just hit max level in a few hours, have the end game set placed at their feet so they can go smash some zombies...they generally want something more...
This is basically why the devs have so ferociously tried for the past 3+ years to pile back on the sugar and the spice. they have made leveling and items and character development more and more and more flavourful with the umpteen patches since the release and since the expansion...
But they are not geniuses for doing it. They are numpties for taking so long to realize.
And now even its most devoted fans are making videos like the one above and websites like the whole D3cab situation in an attempt to right the ship.
Making something easy and making it too easy are separate things. Look at WoW. Acquiring gear to level from 1-100 is easy, but the process takes quite a bit of time. And it was like that from day 1, going 1-60 wasn't something you could do in a day. I understand it's not exactly a fair comparison since WoW is sub-based, but still - from the very beginning it was this way. As I said, they just can't make stuff harder to get, there's no going back now. The only solution is a more interesting endgame.
OH I think comparisons to WoW are absolutely justified and beyond that...extremely healthy for Diablo 3...so thanks for bringing them into the spot light...Arguments otherwise have almost no merit, because in my mind when I view WoW and speak of WoW, I see a game that has attracted some of the most hardcore professional elitist jerk raid master 5000's ever born. And it did so with a big enough bone for them to chew on for years, never mind the sub fee and how many hundreds of millions of dollars it made along the way. I would predict you have about 10 times the play time and about 10 times the skill in WoW as I do, so you and I could probably harp on about it over drinks for hours on end...Along side that, WoW created a piddly little child's adventure while they trip over their shoelaces on the way up through Razor Fen Downs. In short when I view wow I see the strengths of it, that were not respected nearly as much as they should have been, and could have been, with the departments probably being within shouting distance...
WoW was the embodiment of a game that invited 5 year olds and within the exact same game engine and rule-set demanded players to devote, if they so wished it, several thousand actual hours logged in game, and god only knows how many out of game doing calculations and discussing arena comps.
And you are very correct in being wary of making things easy and perhaps making them to easy and drawing a line of distinction. And you are correct about it being hard to level either from 1-60 or from 1-100. But you are only correct WITH that wariness and WITH that consideration and WITH this discussion. Wariness and consideration and discussion that the team down in California either never had or completely failed to capitalize on.
I am not correct when I assert they need to take element X from WoW or difficulty Y. But I am correct when I choose to discuss and draw from it and think about it....the elements that one can be correct on, are things like your statement of "interesting" and my statement of "exciting"
if the devs realized this, We would not all be wearing the same boring as fuck predictable endgame set with emeralds in our weapons with zero alternative, with piles of skills and runes sitting almost completely ignored for months if not years on end, when the entire foundation of Diablo 3 is the exciting growth and exploration of skills and items. Everyone dressing the same way farming infinite paragon levels that grant +5 dexterity 2 thousand times in a row forever...as if thats how far APRGs have come in the past 15 years....such a ridiculous premise should have been laughed out of the meeting room years before the game ever hit the shelf.....to think we just barely got here.....just think about that.
I've said this before and I will say it again. it makes me sick and sad to see how easily the playerbase drums up good ideas that easily destroy the shit baked into D3, and your video does exactly that; you and your cronies, and the mods here and the pro players over there and the devoted fans over in official GD, they come up with amazing ideas and have great debates and coin up these ideas that would serve D3 until the end of time....and here we all sit waiting for Blizzcon to give us a tavern talk that will almost certainly be a let down.
for some reason the devs allowed the absolute entirety of levels 1-69 both inside and outside of seasons to become completely trivialized. it is boring and predictable and pointless. So yes you are correct in your assessment that the only solution is endgame...it appears they have sadly made it so...
@Shurgosa - well put! I'm also crossing my fingers for something big (beyond set revamps and some item previews and a couple new monster types) at BlizzCon, but not holding my breath for it. We'll see I suppose.
@ZimmZFrog - creating a built-in bot of sorts (see: Warlords of Draenor) will turn D3 into a Facebook game. I don't think that's the solution. Botting is becoming more prevalent because a) nothing is being done about it, it's more lucrative/easy to do it now, and c) it injects at least some fun into the game. Grinding 20 grifts for 1 paragon level is bad enough ... now imaging grinding 20 regular rifts on top of that just to be able to do those grifts ... or have a bot do it for you while you sleep.
@Shurgosa - well put! I'm also crossing my fingers for something big (beyond set revamps and some item previews and a couple new monster types) at BlizzCon, but not holding my breath for it. We'll see I suppose.
@ZimmZFrog - creating a built-in bot of sorts (see: Warlords of Draenor) will turn D3 into a Facebook game. I don't think that's the solution. Botting is becoming more prevalent because a) nothing is being done about it, it's more lucrative/easy to do it now, and c) it injects at least some fun into the game. Grinding 20 grifts for 1 paragon level is bad enough ... now imaging grinding 20 regular rifts on top of that just to be able to do those grifts ... or have a bot do it for you while you sleep.
I have often wondered if adding a system such as the pets from Torchlight might reduce the need where some people feel they need to bot for mats, keys, etc. I don't bot, but if I could send a runner of sorts to town to salvage my items and throw stuff in my stash for me, it would free up some time that I could use to personally play to farm those things. Doesn't sound like much time saved, but it would add up for those who play often...
The thing is, if you have to add an in-game mechanic to automate an in-game task, you can argue that task shouldn't exist to begin with. It's like a car leaking oil - instead of fixing the pan, you keep pouring in more oil.
The thing is, if you have to add an in-game mechanic to automate an in-game task, you can argue that task shouldn't exist to begin with. It's like a car leaking oil - instead of fixing the pan, you keep pouring in more oil.
But then you also wouldn't have to make trips to the repair shop either. :-). But I see your point...
1) 'Time = progress'. That's true of anything in life, not just games, and not just ARPG games. The idea is to make that time more interesting.
2) Regarding no ias/crit as it makes paragon 'much stronger'. Not if you scale it properly. There's a mathematical point where 5 main stat = X% crit or X% IAS. The idea is to provide options. Some may want to hit a breakpoint at the expense of a LOT of damage/toughness, others not so much. The scaling/balancing part is up to Blizzard.
3) There's no 'going back'. Ancients are here to stay and the 'loot grind' was over a long time ago and won't be coming back (do you really think Blizz will make stuff HARDER to find again?!).
Again, only solution is something new, complex, and which includes longevity, along with regular/large scale botting ban waves.
Thing is, at this point nothing global (like drop rates) will get nerfed, it would cause too much QQ. The best Blizz can do next patch, sans introducing some new feature, is:
1) Massive bot ban wave(s), on a regular basis.
2) Make the reworked sets competitive with current reworked sets, not stronger. Ditto for seasonal items and new gem(s). Otherwise power creep will .. creep in once again. It already will just based on player knowledge and optimization, especially non season where there will be ~P2500 players. This patch saw massive creep because of the cube. Hopefully next patch it only goes slightly higher due to the reasons mentioned, not because Blizz adds something even more OP.
3) Completely unrelated, but they really need to buff solo play. Make followers do 100% damage instead of 20% for instance. Yes yes 'Asheara's', well you can either adjust the set or leave it as is, since you can't use it with most 6 piece sets anyway and it has an ICD, so you won't get more than 50% uptime.
Hey guys, today I do a follow-up to a video I released almost a year ago on why D3 becomes boring and why each patch/season 'dies' after 1-2 months. Since then, the major issues still persist. I discuss where this stems from - starting with the initial release of the game and snowballing afterwards, the reason for botting, and some possible solutions - including a rework of the paragon system to boost complexity and a runeword system. I wanted to make this before BlizzCon so we can see what, if anything, Blizzard has in store for us. Enjoy & discuss!
https://youtu.be/FXmHDpn44A4
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
I miss that maps were random. Now it's just a handful of tilesets,
and in story mode there is only one.
If you compare RedX's bot on stream to Meathead Mikhail playing you would realize MHM is not botting because the bot plays 10x better than he does.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
The problem really is how easy the made most of the game, leaving a tiny fraction of it (when you consider the entirety of content in the game) - most of it. And they can't go back now and make gear HARDER to get or make leveling HARDER, people would QQ to no end. So that tiny fraction (grift progression) needs to increase in scope and complexity.
As for the frequency of updates, aside from new game sales and 'paying it forward' so people will buy the next xpac, Blizz doesn't make any money from continuously patching the game. People seem to think they pay for a game once and are entitled to free lifetime updates, when that simply doesn't make sense from a business standpoint (if you get paid do a job, you don't keep doing it for free after it's complete just because you got paid once).
This is why I (along with quite a few others) have been asking for micro transactions for over a year now. Stash tabs, cosmetics, character slots, etc.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
You hit the nail on the head srpqqq! (And: welcome to the non-lurker existence on Diablofans ;-))
@srpqqq -
I think everyone agrees it's no longer about the loot, but unfortunately at this point there is NO solution to this particular problem. I talked about it in the video - the whole progression process became quicker and quicker with each patch because people whined and Blizz caved. There is only a solution to replay value via non-loot. You know how ancient items were introduced by Blizzard to put some feelers out there and see how people responded? Paramount QQ about 'I didn't get mine'. And the funny thing is, now they made ANCIENT items easier to get via the cube. Can you IMAGINE what would happen if Inferno-drop rate legendary gear was introduced?? Pssh. Game would be done. Nah, you can kiss the loot hunt goodbye.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
In the quotes above you mention that
1. you cant make the game "harder" or getting gear harder or people would QQ to no end...
2. the whole progression process became quicker and quicker with each patch because people whined and Blizz caved. and that any regression back to that challenge would be met with ENDLESS whining...
One has to contend with the fact that if the creators of D3 shaped the game around pleasing its players then it would cease to exist.
Why?
For 2 reasons:
1. Because at a primal level the whole world wants things to be "easier" and to be acquired with less effort. who doesn't enjoy acquiring things and acquiring wealth and sleeping more and eating better and doing less work for it all....its almost as basic and expected as breathing....
2. roleplaying games at their absolute core are about taking any concept in your mind and expanding it into a convoluted number system. getting stronger performing tasks to greater effect. in D3's case you level slowly and develop stats and stumble over better and better items.
Making things easier on players and rewarding them sooner...takes the fibre of the roleplaying game and flushes it down the toilet.
on top of that, streamlining and simplifying the number system and boiling it down into damage healing and toughness....steers the game away from players who admire the layered number systems above, namely, RPG fans....and towards those who don't really give a shit. namely the huge majority of gamers the world over....
This is why there was this subtle coat of "frustration paint" over the game when items and leveling was so boring and flavorless...because Blizzard was built on the backs of players who enjoy roleplaying strategy anything basically...they don't want to just hit max level in a few hours, have the end game set placed at their feet so they can go smash some zombies...they generally want something more...
This is basically why the devs have so ferociously tried for the past 3+ years to pile back on the sugar and the spice. they have made leveling and items and character development more and more and more flavourful with the umpteen patches since the release and since the expansion...
But they are not geniuses for doing it. They are numpties for taking so long to realize.
And now even its most devoted fans are making videos like the one above and websites like the whole D3cab situation in an attempt to right the ship.
@Shurgosa -
Making something easy and making it too easy are separate things. Look at WoW. Acquiring gear to level from 1-100 is easy, but the process takes quite a bit of time. And it was like that from day 1, going 1-60 wasn't something you could do in a day. I understand it's not exactly a fair comparison since WoW is sub-based, but still - from the very beginning it was this way. As I said, they just can't make stuff harder to get, there's no going back now. The only solution is a more interesting endgame.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
OH I think comparisons to WoW are absolutely justified and beyond that...extremely healthy for Diablo 3...so thanks for bringing them into the spot light...Arguments otherwise have almost no merit, because in my mind when I view WoW and speak of WoW, I see a game that has attracted some of the most hardcore professional elitist jerk raid master 5000's ever born. And it did so with a big enough bone for them to chew on for years, never mind the sub fee and how many hundreds of millions of dollars it made along the way. I would predict you have about 10 times the play time and about 10 times the skill in WoW as I do, so you and I could probably harp on about it over drinks for hours on end...Along side that, WoW created a piddly little child's adventure while they trip over their shoelaces on the way up through Razor Fen Downs. In short when I view wow I see the strengths of it, that were not respected nearly as much as they should have been, and could have been, with the departments probably being within shouting distance...
WoW was the embodiment of a game that invited 5 year olds and within the exact same game engine and rule-set demanded players to devote, if they so wished it, several thousand actual hours logged in game, and god only knows how many out of game doing calculations and discussing arena comps.
And you are very correct in being wary of making things easy and perhaps making them to easy and drawing a line of distinction. And you are correct about it being hard to level either from 1-60 or from 1-100. But you are only correct WITH that wariness and WITH that consideration and WITH this discussion. Wariness and consideration and discussion that the team down in California either never had or completely failed to capitalize on.
I am not correct when I assert they need to take element X from WoW or difficulty Y. But I am correct when I choose to discuss and draw from it and think about it....the elements that one can be correct on, are things like your statement of "interesting" and my statement of "exciting"
if the devs realized this, We would not all be wearing the same boring as fuck predictable endgame set with emeralds in our weapons with zero alternative, with piles of skills and runes sitting almost completely ignored for months if not years on end, when the entire foundation of Diablo 3 is the exciting growth and exploration of skills and items. Everyone dressing the same way farming infinite paragon levels that grant +5 dexterity 2 thousand times in a row forever...as if thats how far APRGs have come in the past 15 years....such a ridiculous premise should have been laughed out of the meeting room years before the game ever hit the shelf.....to think we just barely got here.....just think about that.
I've said this before and I will say it again. it makes me sick and sad to see how easily the playerbase drums up good ideas that easily destroy the shit baked into D3, and your video does exactly that; you and your cronies, and the mods here and the pro players over there and the devoted fans over in official GD, they come up with amazing ideas and have great debates and coin up these ideas that would serve D3 until the end of time....and here we all sit waiting for Blizzcon to give us a tavern talk that will almost certainly be a let down.
for some reason the devs allowed the absolute entirety of levels 1-69 both inside and outside of seasons to become completely trivialized. it is boring and predictable and pointless. So yes you are correct in your assessment that the only solution is endgame...it appears they have sadly made it so...
blizzard will never back-pedal on loot 2.0 and you all know it
@Shurgosa - well put! I'm also crossing my fingers for something big (beyond set revamps and some item previews and a couple new monster types) at BlizzCon, but not holding my breath for it. We'll see I suppose.
@ZimmZFrog - creating a built-in bot of sorts (see: Warlords of Draenor) will turn D3 into a Facebook game. I don't think that's the solution. Botting is becoming more prevalent because a) nothing is being done about it, it's more lucrative/easy to do it now, and c) it injects at least some fun into the game. Grinding 20 grifts for 1 paragon level is bad enough ... now imaging grinding 20 regular rifts on top of that just to be able to do those grifts ... or have a bot do it for you while you sleep.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
The thing is, if you have to add an in-game mechanic to automate an in-game task, you can argue that task shouldn't exist to begin with. It's like a car leaking oil - instead of fixing the pan, you keep pouring in more oil.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
Interesting replies, here's what I think:
1) 'Time = progress'. That's true of anything in life, not just games, and not just ARPG games. The idea is to make that time more interesting.
2) Regarding no ias/crit as it makes paragon 'much stronger'. Not if you scale it properly. There's a mathematical point where 5 main stat = X% crit or X% IAS. The idea is to provide options. Some may want to hit a breakpoint at the expense of a LOT of damage/toughness, others not so much. The scaling/balancing part is up to Blizzard.
3) There's no 'going back'. Ancients are here to stay and the 'loot grind' was over a long time ago and won't be coming back (do you really think Blizz will make stuff HARDER to find again?!).
Again, only solution is something new, complex, and which includes longevity, along with regular/large scale botting ban waves.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
Thing is, at this point nothing global (like drop rates) will get nerfed, it would cause too much QQ. The best Blizz can do next patch, sans introducing some new feature, is:
1) Massive bot ban wave(s), on a regular basis.
2) Make the reworked sets competitive with current reworked sets, not stronger. Ditto for seasonal items and new gem(s). Otherwise power creep will .. creep in once again. It already will just based on player knowledge and optimization, especially non season where there will be ~P2500 players. This patch saw massive creep because of the cube. Hopefully next patch it only goes slightly higher due to the reasons mentioned, not because Blizz adds something even more OP.
3) Completely unrelated, but they really need to buff solo play. Make followers do 100% damage instead of 20% for instance. Yes yes 'Asheara's', well you can either adjust the set or leave it as is, since you can't use it with most 6 piece sets anyway and it has an ICD, so you won't get more than 50% uptime.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web