I've been playing as a Crusader in Season 3 at T6 alone. Also lately I've been working on crafting Hellfire Amulets. It's a time consuming endeavor. I'm not thrilled with the idea of the key being a mere 50% at T6 but I do understand that it increases the chase a bit. The trouble for me is finding the Keywarden. I will not use the word “all” or "we" for the sake of avoiding hyperbole but many times I've caught myself having explored eighty to ninety percent of the map and miraculously no Keywarden. At which point I pull up the map. Find that one mote of obfuscation left. Trudge on over. “Yup, there's Sokahr. Anddd... no key.” Doubly frustrating. Where's this lame gripe going you're wondering?
My suggestion is the following: On Keywarden maps, after X% of the map is uncovered, a “here's the Keywarden” ping comes into existence. And much like that helpful “here's the bounty” arrow after X amount of time, it continues to illuminate the correct path until they are no longer necessary.
Points of rebuttal that I perceive:
Another Solo vs Group play discussion:
I admit that this mechanic is inspired wholly by my solitary playing habits. It would indeed be remedied by grouping but that solution is not ideal for me personally. I do not have the will or desire to group. It invokes a feeling of anxiousness. I do not see compromise of playstyles as much as I see acquiescence. I bear certain proclivities and I imagine them to be a detriment to others. It does not heighten my entertainment factor for me to play thinking that I'm hampering my group's enjoyment. I am aware this is petty, but that is me. My personal drawback's aside, there will always be times when finding a group may prove difficult.
Shortening the length of time it takes to craft an amulet:
Only marginally so. You are still combating the RNG monster when it comes to the key actually dropping. The specific number representing the percentage could also be variable or dependent on the amount of people.
Not looking for Keywarden:
What if you're not looking for the Keywarden? What if the icon is obtrusive/unnecessary? I can only suggest that this system be designed well enough to avoid such annoyances. That a bounty arrow, if applicable, takes precedence over the Keywarden hint for example. Or based on the multiplayer game tag "Key Warden", the reverse occurs.
Play as X to hunt faster:
Conformity for convenience. When Mara's set first hit it was absolutely too good to ignore. I gave up how I used to play and took on the role of a passive knife in the dark. I wasn't particularly fond of it but it was lucrative. It'll always be like that. Adjusting to the meta until I've forgotten what skills delivered a cathartic thwack to the mobs. My point is that conceding here doesn't have to be a necessary absolute.
Why not suggest using a timer like with the Bounty:
Incredibly it was not the first idea that occurred to me while I thought about this originally. The bounty timer came to mind while I was writing this post. So then I wondered why it didn't occur to me initially to just suggest using the timer mechanic from the Bounties. I believe using a timer is wrong. I do not want to propose a mechanic that could potentially remove exploration and replace it with an amenity. I only wish to shorten the exploration phase to avoid an aspect of Keywarden frustration.
Thank you for taking the time to read.
Sincerely,
Detruncate
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
The Keywarden isn't the problem. The wacky, unpredictable "reward" for completing the entire Uber event which gives you about a .05% chance at actually being rewarded is what the problem is.
An experienced keyhunter can find 4 machines (16 keys) in about an hour, every time. Making the key-hunt easier is like a short cut to a dead end.
The Keywarden isn't the problem. The wacky, unpredictable "reward" for completing the entire Uber event which gives you about a .05% chance at actually being rewarded is what the problem is.
An experienced keyhunter can find 4 machines (16 keys) in about an hour, every time. Making the key-hunt easier is like a short cut to a dead end.
Would you happen to know any links you could share with me? I can't find 16 keys in a day. I was a bit despondent about the whole affair, thus this topic's creation. What do you mean by unpredictable reward though? Organ drops are 100% on T6. Are you talking about the RNG involved in the amulet's creation? In which case, yeah. I've made more than a few laughable amulets.
Yes, the amulets.....argh. I've made so many, a few usable, but nothing better than other ammys I already have.
I'll have to dig around for links, I know ther's a guide on this site somewhere, but not sure what it covers as far as speed key farming.
What I do requires a crusader, a Swiftmount Flail and the use of the skill Steed Charge/Endurance. With 100% Steed Charge uptime, once you practice a few times, you should average 16 keys in about an hour, if you're really grinding it out. As far as I know, it's the fastest set-up for key hunting.
That's really all there is too it. Other classes can be set up for speed, and maybe someone here could help you with that. But for me, Swiftmount Crusader is the way to go.
Finally I see a topic that offers a solutions, with an explaination of the thoughts behind it. Many people just put out topics that it's bad, or come with solutions without any thought behind it. I enjoyed the read of this, thank you
However, while this would help a lot, I think it tries to hide some symptoms, it does not solve the core problems:
- Solo will never be as efficient as multiplayer. In the past, for rifts, 1 person had to pay 5 keys, the others went in for free. It got changed to 1 key from everyone. They could apply the same thing for this. While it would look silly, making key wardens drop 4 keys (when they drop, same chance as now), so you can craft 4 portals compared to 1 now, but everyone needs a portal to enter, would be a quick fix. Maybe they can find a prettier way, but you get the point. It would also prevent 3rd party sites from selling portals.
- Even when you know where to go for the key warden, you will be "forced" into certain builds, since speed is the primary factor how many keys you can farm.
- If the reward was better, more people would do it, trying to perfect their amulet. While a good HF amulet is the best amulet you can ever get, it is hard to get a good one. If you manage to get a good one, it's almost impossible to upgrade it. The time you spend farming keys/running ubers (once you have a half decent amulet) is probably nullified by the extra stats you could get from paragon in that time.
- The main problem with key warden farming (and bounties), is that it is just boring. You have a set target, try to run there as fast as possible (considered loosing time), to execute your mission, and maybe get a nice reward (key or bounty items you want). D3 is a game about action, if the road to your target would be a challenge or rewarding, it wouldn't feel that bad. Sadly they made rifts the most rewarding thing in the game, because everyone was running bounties when ROS came out (more drops because of bounty bag). "Increasing" the drop chance in bounties (to the level of rifts), put random vendors with special items (I heard about one in northern highland selling legendary plans, not sure if he really was in the game and still is, but things like that, maybe even random legendaries), make the mobs on the way more aggresive (and rewarding) so you have to fight them instead of outrun them, maybe put some achievements (even if you don't collect them, getting that popup feels rewarding in some way I think) like "explore dahlgur oasis for 95% x time" where they can make multiple achievements with increasing x value, ...
Again, I really thank you for a post with a problem, solution and reasoning behind it
Great response Riff, good write up good suggestions.
Can I ask a favor? Can you try and break up your posts a little? Paragraphs, even pseudo paragraphs, just break it up. I see a mountain of text and it makes my head hurt. Please don't be offended, just asking. I would rather read your stuff than not.
Yes, the amulets.....argh. I've made so many, a few usable, but nothing better than other ammys I already have.
I'll have to dig around for links, I know ther's a guide on this site somewhere, but not sure what it covers as far as speed key farming.
What I do requires a crusader, a Swiftmount Flail and the use of the skill Steed Charge/Endurance. With 100% Steed Charge uptime, once you practice a few times, you should average 16 keys in about an hour, if you're really grinding it out. As far as I know, it's the fastest set-up for key hunting.
That's really all there is too it. Other classes can be set up for speed, and maybe someone here could help you with that. But for me, Swiftmount Crusader is the way to go.
Coincidentally(thankfully :P) that is the class I am running on Season 3 and I had looked at that build. I've just never come up with a Swiftmount Flail. It's not the preferred or ideal solution for me but I will look more in earnest after the weekend. I say non-ideal because it falls in line with [sic] conformity for convenience. Regardless, I am thankful for the reply with an alternative.
Finally I see a topic that offers a solutions, with an explaination of the thoughts behind it. Many people just put out topics that it's bad, or come with solutions without any thought behind it. I enjoyed the read of this, thank you
However, while this would help a lot, I think it tries to hide some symptoms, it does not solve the core problems:
- Solo will never be as efficient as multiplayer. In the past, for rifts, 1 person had to pay 5 keys, the others went in for free. It got changed to 1 key from everyone. They could apply the same thing for this. While it would look silly, making key wardens drop 4 keys (when they drop, same chance as now), so you can craft 4 portals compared to 1 now, but everyone needs a portal to enter, would be a quick fix. Maybe they can find a prettier way, but you get the point. It would also prevent 3rd party sites from selling portals.
Thank you for the compliment. It's still very much a double edged sword I feel. Verbosity can kill an idea just as well as a poorly framed one.
I cannot argue that Single Player can be, will be, must be, as efficient as Multi Player. I accept that more people are capable of doing more things. I only wish to mitigate the stress it can place on an individual. As for your suggestion assuming I'm understanding it properly: Kill Keywarden (Drops 4 keys or none?), Every person needs a machine to enter? I don't mind the idea that every player participating must front some cost. The current infernal machine iteration does not reflect good faith. I had not made the connection in respect to the the rift keys until now. This is a good suggestion in its own right. I believe it has merit at the least.
- Even when you know where to go for the key warden, you will be "forced" into certain builds, since speed is the primary factor how many keys you can farm.
Without a doubt RiffSphere a truism that is. But again I am only offering mitigation for the interest of an individual's prerogative to enjoy their play through without as much emphasis on sacrifice. "Forced" as you put it can be swayed to a more palatable "ideally".
- If the reward was better, more people would do it, trying to perfect their amulet. While a good HF amulet is the best amulet you can ever get, it is hard to get a good one. If you manage to get a good one, it's almost impossible to upgrade it. The time you spend farming keys/running ubers (once you have a half decent amulet) is probably nullified by the extra stats you could get from paragon in that time.
- The main problem with key warden farming (and bounties), is that it is just boring. You have a set target, try to run there as fast as possible (considered loosing time), to execute your mission, and maybe get a nice reward (key or bounty items you want). D3 is a game about action, if the road to your target would be a challenge or rewarding, it wouldn't feel that bad. Sadly they made rifts the most rewarding thing in the game, because everyone was running bounties when ROS came out (more drops because of bounty bag). "Increasing" the drop chance in bounties (to the level of rifts), put random vendors with special items (I heard about one in northern highland selling legendary plans, not sure if he really was in the game and still is, but things like that, maybe even random legendaries), make the mobs on the way more aggresive (and rewarding) so you have to fight them instead of outrun them, maybe put some achievements (even if you don't collect them, getting that popup feels rewarding in some way I think) like "explore dahlgur oasis for 95% x time" where they can make multiple achievements with increasing x value, ...
Again, I really thank you for a post with a problem, solution and reasoning behind it
It does feel tedious. More so when the steps are boiled down like that. The reward as you say, and as ruksak agrees, makes it hard to justify the effort. I'm all for livening the avenues that lead to the end if it means adjusting the way RNG impacts the Hellfire Amulet. Crit damage please. So for either of our suggestions I hope for the best.
PS: I've never seen Dana Bright either.
Sincerely,
Detruncate
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
I wouldn't be against them adding a chance for keys to drop from bounty caches, at least then you would have another chance at a key.
What about, they turn the keywarden into a bounty? Giving the key a chance to drop from bounty caches, would make bounties feel more rewarding, but not make keyruns more fun.
Since you have to farm riftkeys from time to time anyway, turning the keywarden into a bounty would make the keyruns more rewarding (remake games until you have that bounty) since you also do a bounty, and make bounties more rewarding since you can get a "free" key.
And if they make it "kill 100 mobs+keywarden", it gives you something to do while looking for him, instead of just running around.
There are a lot of good things they could do to make this experience a little more tolerable. Before I get in to them, just a couple of tips on farming that may seem obvious, maybe not:
Sure, Swiftmount is "conformity for the sake of whatever you said" but honestly would you rather be cool to yourself or save yourself hours over the course your game play? Do you use your Paragon points for movement speed? Cuz that's so trendy right now, omg. Anyway: Swiftmount with Steed/Endurance is the only way to farm these keys for Crusader. You zip across the map in a zig-zag pattern, and if you've covered 80% of the map and haven't found the KW? Reload. Starting a new game and finding the KW in a new game on the A1/A2 maps is far faster over the long haul than spending so much time exploring the edges of the map.
Multiplayer is kind of how the keys were designed to be farmed and used. I know your pain with multiplayer, trust me I do. If it were anywhere close to as efficient to do this solo, I would be right there with you. Find a community devoted to split key farming. The players in there are much better than the pub games. Anyways, the benefit of this is that when you farm for a key, you're only farming 1 act. If you're in act 1 and the key drops in act 2 with someone else, you can go to them and pick up the key too. So instead of farming 4 acts, you're only farming 1. That's a 75% decrease in farming time right there. But it gets better. You need 4 keys to make a machine, 16 in total for 4 machines for 1 chance at an amulet. With a group of four, you only need 4 keys personally to have a chance at 1 amulet. That's a 75% increase there too. Trust me, I understand your pains on multiplayer, but for HF amulet farming, it is literally stupid not to do it with a good group. Instead of spending multiple days for 1 chance, you spend less than an hour.
On to my personal thoughts on how Bliz can make this experience better for us, In no particular order:
Have the keywarden show up on the map like the Rift Guardians do. You can't see them from across the map, but if you're running through quickly and miss them or if you are close to them, this would be a godsend.
Have the chat tell you when a key dropped. This should be easy as they already tell you that so-and-so killed the keywarden.
Put the dang key on the map. A quick icon like the legendary icons would be wonderful.
Ubers are too easy. If you're going to gear the game around RG35-40 then ubers at T6 are a joke. They aren't even fun, they just blow up. It's a non-event at this point.
Too many amulets are garbage. As someone said above, a guaranteed base stat and socket would go a long way.
If you aren't going to focus on making this experience better (because it's old and they want to focus on new) then give us a new BiS amulet. The only reason people are still doing these is because there's that 0.05% chance of getting something that's truly BiS.
There is no problem. The Hellfire Amulet is intentionally designed to be hard to get (easier than Star or other amulets though); it's the best in the game. There should be no derivation from its current procedure.
I would concede for icons where keys drop though. Makes it useful for pubs. Though I also want Ubers to be buffed with minion spawns, debuffs, and the like and bring their hp/damage up to par with Grifts (at this season I'd fathom something like 43-48).
Oh, one more thing with multiplayer, hopefully you're aware of the Town Portal trick. When you use the keyboard short cut to go back to town (or the blue vagina button on the screen) then you get that portal in town so that you can tp back to where you were, right? (we'll call this the way-back portal) Obviously, everyone knows that. What you may not know is that this portal only appears when you go to town using one of those methods. If you use the world map and click on the town you want to teleport to, it does NOT create a way back portal, and (here's the kicker) if you had one already, it doesn't overwrite it.
The way you can take advantage of this is that if you are searching Act 1 and don't want to lose your spot, you can TP back to town using one of the methods that gives you a way back portal, then teleport to someone (who just found a key), pick up your key, then use the MAP to TP back to town, and then use your way back portal to go right back to where you left off searching. This trick helps tremendously when farming keys. The people searching acts 3 and 4 almost always finish before acts 1 and 2, so they will "Save" their wayback portal to the key location and come to a1/2 to help search. Then when all the wardens are dead, they can zip back to where their key was so that everyone can pick it up.
While the farming of hellfire amulets (or keywardens) is tedious, it is one of the easiest farmable items, while being one of the most powerul ones. I'd say it's the second most powerful item after your weapon, but nonetheless - it's not something you get if you play 1h per week, it is meant to be the ultimate endgame item (especially with good rolls in mind).
That being said, I agree that it would feel better if you had a more consistent way of obtaining them, 50% in theory sounds good, but when we were farming for keys we ended up with 17xAct1, 28xAct2, 25xAct3 and 42xAct4. I the experience would feel better in general, if there was always a key, but you'd need 2 to craft a machine. It was like that before RoS hit with MP10 and a 100% dropchance, and that actually felt a lot more rewarding imo.
I don't think anyone is arguing that it's hard, it's just very tedious, time consuming, and most of all, not fun. In fact, I'd prefer if it were harder and they payoff was better. I really like the idea of having a fixed level grift for each of the ubers culminating in a guaranteed piece.
You already have guaranteed pieces from the Ubers (Nobody doesn't do them on t6); or do you mean ascending grift levels for the uber drop %s; or do you just mean stats on the amulets?
rhaepso's 100% key + 2 keys per machine idea is good as well, but it'd be better just to make the keys 100% again and buff the ubers to be extremely difficult. Of course since everything is easy-mode nowadays I'm sure it'll go 100% keys, difficulty same as the status quo has shown.
Thank you all for the feedback! A personal thank you for expounding on the importance of multiplayer JKlimek. I will do my best to stomach that guilty unhelpful feeling it engenders. *sigh* lol
I've read all the replies so far and I agree that making this process easier is not the best course of action. Here, however, are the recurring points:
- Key collection is monotonous
- Ubers are laughably easy
- Amulet RNG
These are a collection of those ideas and not mine but I do see wisdom in exploring each of them.
Key collection is monotonous!
1. Bounty Bags containing keys
2. Bounties for the Keywarden
3. Psuedo-Greater Rifts containing Keywardens
Ubers are easy.
I concur and I'm not a decent player.
1. Ubers spawn minions
2. Debuffs
3. Level them up to GR40+
4. Psudeo-Greater Rifts containing Ubers
Amulet RNG.
The great leviathan lurking in the undercurrent sweeping up to denigrate useful to abysmal.
1. Socket along with main stat.
Off center or otherwise related suggestions to the above:
1. Key Icon when dropped like Legendary
2. Key drop announced in chat for multiplayer games
3. 2 Keys of each required for Infernal Machines but 100% drop chance on T6.
Arduous the path was until at last revealing grandeur beyond known means.
There's something else people have in their minds at all time that has not been considered in this thread and that is: SEASONS; players who play Seasons regularly have an inclination for this farming to be "easier" or "less painfull" since they find themselves doing it repetedly, which is completely reasonable since if you wanna be really competitive, a HFA helps a ton, but we're talking about an item that; well itemized, is NOT ONLY the very best in its slot (neck) but HAS BEEN "immune" to new patches and content and STILL IS the undisputed king of necklaces since its release, (with, perhaps, the exception of immunity necks in the particular scenario of Greater Rift pushing) and this phenomena is without precedent in any other gear slot.
Now we have the (quite noticiable) group of people who dont play Seasons, the value of an item like HFA should be in fact; legendary and the difficult to get it should be even more, since once you finally get it; it's forever.
Where am I going with this? What I seek to explain is that; the "pain threshold" a non-seasonal character is willing to suffer through to get this item; is extremely higher than a seasonal, since in seasons your time is limited and if you were to spend your days looking for that perfectly itemized HFA, it'd be counterproductive, since in that time you could have gotten upgrades that would probably surpass the actual power that a single HFA can provide.
So to sum, up what I mean with this is that; HFA is the most epicly legendary item that exists in Diablo 3 since its (perfectly itemized) singularity; can push you ahead from the rest in unthinkable ways, so it should be an item that takes you AGES to get in a single 2,000+ /played hours non-seasonal character, if we translate that to -a single season- we're left with the current situation which is: Only an extremely reduced (lucky) group of individuals actually get a perfectly itemized HFA.
But then again: Seasons now exist and the Devs (which I cant blame) are on a dilemma; they've found themselves in between the abyssal disparity of what "hard to get" means in Seasons and what it means in non-season, when truth is; an item as epic as this one, should NOT be "gettable" every season because it has preserved its non-seasonal "rarity", which is exactly as it should be.
I think Blizz has 2 options:
Leave it as it is: So then SO FEW people get them in seasons that their progression "jump" is almost unperceivable (with this I mean that; although it's a BIG jump, so few people have it and even fewer use it to its full potential; that most of us cant "spreadsheet" its power enough to bother) which is (again) what is happening right now.
Make it easy enough for everyone (including casuals) to be able to get one.
Because guys, lets get real, perfectly itemized Hellfire Jewelry is pretty much the only reward: real no-lifing nerds can feel proud of and DAMN does it feel good.
I've been playing as a Crusader in Season 3 at T6 alone. Also lately I've been working on crafting Hellfire Amulets. It's a time consuming endeavor. I'm not thrilled with the idea of the key being a mere 50% at T6 but I do understand that it increases the chase a bit. The trouble for me is finding the Keywarden. I will not use the word “all” or "we" for the sake of avoiding hyperbole but many times I've caught myself having explored eighty to ninety percent of the map and miraculously no Keywarden. At which point I pull up the map. Find that one mote of obfuscation left. Trudge on over. “Yup, there's Sokahr. Anddd... no key.” Doubly frustrating. Where's this lame gripe going you're wondering?
My suggestion is the following: On Keywarden maps, after X% of the map is uncovered, a “here's the Keywarden” ping comes into existence. And much like that helpful “here's the bounty” arrow after X amount of time, it continues to illuminate the correct path until they are no longer necessary.
Points of rebuttal that I perceive:
Another Solo vs Group play discussion:
I admit that this mechanic is inspired wholly by my solitary playing habits. It would indeed be remedied by grouping but that solution is not ideal for me personally. I do not have the will or desire to group. It invokes a feeling of anxiousness. I do not see compromise of playstyles as much as I see acquiescence. I bear certain proclivities and I imagine them to be a detriment to others. It does not heighten my entertainment factor for me to play thinking that I'm hampering my group's enjoyment. I am aware this is petty, but that is me. My personal drawback's aside, there will always be times when finding a group may prove difficult.
Shortening the length of time it takes to craft an amulet:
Only marginally so. You are still combating the RNG monster when it comes to the key actually dropping. The specific number representing the percentage could also be variable or dependent on the amount of people.
Not looking for Keywarden:
What if you're not looking for the Keywarden? What if the icon is obtrusive/unnecessary? I can only suggest that this system be designed well enough to avoid such annoyances. That a bounty arrow, if applicable, takes precedence over the Keywarden hint for example. Or based on the multiplayer game tag "Key Warden", the reverse occurs.
Play as X to hunt faster:
Conformity for convenience. When Mara's set first hit it was absolutely too good to ignore. I gave up how I used to play and took on the role of a passive knife in the dark. I wasn't particularly fond of it but it was lucrative. It'll always be like that. Adjusting to the meta until I've forgotten what skills delivered a cathartic thwack to the mobs. My point is that conceding here doesn't have to be a necessary absolute.
Why not suggest using a timer like with the Bounty:
Incredibly it was not the first idea that occurred to me while I thought about this originally. The bounty timer came to mind while I was writing this post. So then I wondered why it didn't occur to me initially to just suggest using the timer mechanic from the Bounties. I believe using a timer is wrong. I do not want to propose a mechanic that could potentially remove exploration and replace it with an amenity. I only wish to shorten the exploration phase to avoid an aspect of Keywarden frustration.
Thank you for taking the time to read.
Sincerely,
Detruncate
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
The Keywarden isn't the problem. The wacky, unpredictable "reward" for completing the entire Uber event which gives you about a .05% chance at actually being rewarded is what the problem is.
An experienced keyhunter can find 4 machines (16 keys) in about an hour, every time. Making the key-hunt easier is like a short cut to a dead end.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Would you happen to know any links you could share with me? I can't find 16 keys in a day. I was a bit despondent about the whole affair, thus this topic's creation. What do you mean by unpredictable reward though? Organ drops are 100% on T6. Are you talking about the RNG involved in the amulet's creation? In which case, yeah. I've made more than a few laughable amulets.
[edit] grammar
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
Yes, the amulets.....argh. I've made so many, a few usable, but nothing better than other ammys I already have.
I'll have to dig around for links, I know ther's a guide on this site somewhere, but not sure what it covers as far as speed key farming.
What I do requires a crusader, a Swiftmount Flail and the use of the skill Steed Charge/Endurance. With 100% Steed Charge uptime, once you practice a few times, you should average 16 keys in about an hour, if you're really grinding it out. As far as I know, it's the fastest set-up for key hunting.
That's really all there is too it. Other classes can be set up for speed, and maybe someone here could help you with that. But for me, Swiftmount Crusader is the way to go.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Hi,
Finally I see a topic that offers a solutions, with an explaination of the thoughts behind it. Many people just put out topics that it's bad, or come with solutions without any thought behind it. I enjoyed the read of this, thank you
However, while this would help a lot, I think it tries to hide some symptoms, it does not solve the core problems:
- Solo will never be as efficient as multiplayer. In the past, for rifts, 1 person had to pay 5 keys, the others went in for free. It got changed to 1 key from everyone. They could apply the same thing for this. While it would look silly, making key wardens drop 4 keys (when they drop, same chance as now), so you can craft 4 portals compared to 1 now, but everyone needs a portal to enter, would be a quick fix. Maybe they can find a prettier way, but you get the point. It would also prevent 3rd party sites from selling portals.
- Even when you know where to go for the key warden, you will be "forced" into certain builds, since speed is the primary factor how many keys you can farm.
- If the reward was better, more people would do it, trying to perfect their amulet. While a good HF amulet is the best amulet you can ever get, it is hard to get a good one. If you manage to get a good one, it's almost impossible to upgrade it. The time you spend farming keys/running ubers (once you have a half decent amulet) is probably nullified by the extra stats you could get from paragon in that time.
- The main problem with key warden farming (and bounties), is that it is just boring. You have a set target, try to run there as fast as possible (considered loosing time), to execute your mission, and maybe get a nice reward (key or bounty items you want). D3 is a game about action, if the road to your target would be a challenge or rewarding, it wouldn't feel that bad. Sadly they made rifts the most rewarding thing in the game, because everyone was running bounties when ROS came out (more drops because of bounty bag). "Increasing" the drop chance in bounties (to the level of rifts), put random vendors with special items (I heard about one in northern highland selling legendary plans, not sure if he really was in the game and still is, but things like that, maybe even random legendaries), make the mobs on the way more aggresive (and rewarding) so you have to fight them instead of outrun them, maybe put some achievements (even if you don't collect them, getting that popup feels rewarding in some way I think) like "explore dahlgur oasis for 95% x time" where they can make multiple achievements with increasing x value, ...
Again, I really thank you for a post with a problem, solution and reasoning behind it
Great response Riff, good write up good suggestions.
Can I ask a favor? Can you try and break up your posts a little? Paragraphs, even pseudo paragraphs, just break it up. I see a mountain of text and it makes my head hurt. Please don't be offended, just asking. I would rather read your stuff than not.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?
I will try from now on
Coincidentally(thankfully :P) that is the class I am running on Season 3 and I had looked at that build. I've just never come up with a Swiftmount Flail. It's not the preferred or ideal solution for me but I will look more in earnest after the weekend. I say non-ideal because it falls in line with [sic] conformity for convenience. Regardless, I am thankful for the reply with an alternative.
Thank you for the compliment. It's still very much a double edged sword I feel. Verbosity can kill an idea just as well as a poorly framed one.
I cannot argue that Single Player can be, will be, must be, as efficient as Multi Player. I accept that more people are capable of doing more things. I only wish to mitigate the stress it can place on an individual. As for your suggestion assuming I'm understanding it properly: Kill Keywarden (Drops 4 keys or none?), Every person needs a machine to enter? I don't mind the idea that every player participating must front some cost. The current infernal machine iteration does not reflect good faith. I had not made the connection in respect to the the rift keys until now. This is a good suggestion in its own right. I believe it has merit at the least.
Without a doubt RiffSphere a truism that is. But again I am only offering mitigation for the interest of an individual's prerogative to enjoy their play through without as much emphasis on sacrifice. "Forced" as you put it can be swayed to a more palatable "ideally".
It does feel tedious. More so when the steps are boiled down like that. The reward as you say, and as ruksak agrees, makes it hard to justify the effort. I'm all for livening the avenues that lead to the end if it means adjusting the way RNG impacts the Hellfire Amulet. Crit damage please. So for either of our suggestions I hope for the best.
PS: I've never seen Dana Bright either.
Sincerely,
Detruncate
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
I wouldn't be against them adding a chance for keys to drop from bounty caches, at least then you would have another chance at a key.
dude, stop using the dictionary of synonyms
its ridiculous, if u didnt figured it out yet
if ure retarted u cant write properly
u get a bit smarter and u use a few different words
u get even smarter and u write as simple as u can
ty
What the fuck are you going on about now? You're criticizing him for grammar with that slurry of text-like juvenile garble? Really?
Learn to spell "retarded" if you're going to use it.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
What about, they turn the keywarden into a bounty? Giving the key a chance to drop from bounty caches, would make bounties feel more rewarding, but not make keyruns more fun.
Since you have to farm riftkeys from time to time anyway, turning the keywarden into a bounty would make the keyruns more rewarding (remake games until you have that bounty) since you also do a bounty, and make bounties more rewarding since you can get a "free" key.
And if they make it "kill 100 mobs+keywarden", it gives you something to do while looking for him, instead of just running around.
There are a lot of good things they could do to make this experience a little more tolerable. Before I get in to them, just a couple of tips on farming that may seem obvious, maybe not:
Sure, Swiftmount is "conformity for the sake of whatever you said" but honestly would you rather be cool to yourself or save yourself hours over the course your game play? Do you use your Paragon points for movement speed? Cuz that's so trendy right now, omg. Anyway: Swiftmount with Steed/Endurance is the only way to farm these keys for Crusader. You zip across the map in a zig-zag pattern, and if you've covered 80% of the map and haven't found the KW? Reload. Starting a new game and finding the KW in a new game on the A1/A2 maps is far faster over the long haul than spending so much time exploring the edges of the map.
Multiplayer is kind of how the keys were designed to be farmed and used. I know your pain with multiplayer, trust me I do. If it were anywhere close to as efficient to do this solo, I would be right there with you. Find a community devoted to split key farming. The players in there are much better than the pub games. Anyways, the benefit of this is that when you farm for a key, you're only farming 1 act. If you're in act 1 and the key drops in act 2 with someone else, you can go to them and pick up the key too. So instead of farming 4 acts, you're only farming 1. That's a 75% decrease in farming time right there. But it gets better. You need 4 keys to make a machine, 16 in total for 4 machines for 1 chance at an amulet. With a group of four, you only need 4 keys personally to have a chance at 1 amulet. That's a 75% increase there too. Trust me, I understand your pains on multiplayer, but for HF amulet farming, it is literally stupid not to do it with a good group. Instead of spending multiple days for 1 chance, you spend less than an hour.
On to my personal thoughts on how Bliz can make this experience better for us, In no particular order:
Have the keywarden show up on the map like the Rift Guardians do. You can't see them from across the map, but if you're running through quickly and miss them or if you are close to them, this would be a godsend.
Have the chat tell you when a key dropped. This should be easy as they already tell you that so-and-so killed the keywarden.
Put the dang key on the map. A quick icon like the legendary icons would be wonderful.
Ubers are too easy. If you're going to gear the game around RG35-40 then ubers at T6 are a joke. They aren't even fun, they just blow up. It's a non-event at this point.
Too many amulets are garbage. As someone said above, a guaranteed base stat and socket would go a long way.
If you aren't going to focus on making this experience better (because it's old and they want to focus on new) then give us a new BiS amulet. The only reason people are still doing these is because there's that 0.05% chance of getting something that's truly BiS.
There is no problem. The Hellfire Amulet is intentionally designed to be hard to get (easier than Star or other amulets though); it's the best in the game. There should be no derivation from its current procedure.
I would concede for icons where keys drop though. Makes it useful for pubs. Though I also want Ubers to be buffed with minion spawns, debuffs, and the like and bring their hp/damage up to par with Grifts (at this season I'd fathom something like 43-48).
Oh, one more thing with multiplayer, hopefully you're aware of the Town Portal trick. When you use the keyboard short cut to go back to town (or the blue vagina button on the screen) then you get that portal in town so that you can tp back to where you were, right? (we'll call this the way-back portal) Obviously, everyone knows that. What you may not know is that this portal only appears when you go to town using one of those methods. If you use the world map and click on the town you want to teleport to, it does NOT create a way back portal, and (here's the kicker) if you had one already, it doesn't overwrite it.
The way you can take advantage of this is that if you are searching Act 1 and don't want to lose your spot, you can TP back to town using one of the methods that gives you a way back portal, then teleport to someone (who just found a key), pick up your key, then use the MAP to TP back to town, and then use your way back portal to go right back to where you left off searching. This trick helps tremendously when farming keys. The people searching acts 3 and 4 almost always finish before acts 1 and 2, so they will "Save" their wayback portal to the key location and come to a1/2 to help search. Then when all the wardens are dead, they can zip back to where their key was so that everyone can pick it up.
While the farming of hellfire amulets (or keywardens) is tedious, it is one of the easiest farmable items, while being one of the most powerul ones. I'd say it's the second most powerful item after your weapon, but nonetheless - it's not something you get if you play 1h per week, it is meant to be the ultimate endgame item (especially with good rolls in mind).
That being said, I agree that it would feel better if you had a more consistent way of obtaining them, 50% in theory sounds good, but when we were farming for keys we ended up with 17xAct1, 28xAct2, 25xAct3 and 42xAct4. I the experience would feel better in general, if there was always a key, but you'd need 2 to craft a machine. It was like that before RoS hit with MP10 and a 100% dropchance, and that actually felt a lot more rewarding imo.
I don't think anyone is arguing that it's hard, it's just very tedious, time consuming, and most of all, not fun. In fact, I'd prefer if it were harder and they payoff was better. I really like the idea of having a fixed level grift for each of the ubers culminating in a guaranteed piece.
You already have guaranteed pieces from the Ubers (Nobody doesn't do them on t6); or do you mean ascending grift levels for the uber drop %s; or do you just mean stats on the amulets?
rhaepso's 100% key + 2 keys per machine idea is good as well, but it'd be better just to make the keys 100% again and buff the ubers to be extremely difficult. Of course since everything is easy-mode nowadays I'm sure it'll go 100% keys, difficulty same as the status quo has shown.
Thank you all for the feedback! A personal thank you for expounding on the importance of multiplayer JKlimek. I will do my best to stomach that guilty unhelpful feeling it engenders. *sigh* lol
I've read all the replies so far and I agree that making this process easier is not the best course of action. Here, however, are the recurring points:
- Key collection is monotonous
- Ubers are laughably easy
- Amulet RNG
These are a collection of those ideas and not mine but I do see wisdom in exploring each of them.
Key collection is monotonous!
1. Bounty Bags containing keys
2. Bounties for the Keywarden
3. Psuedo-Greater Rifts containing Keywardens
Ubers are easy.
I concur and I'm not a decent player.
1. Ubers spawn minions
2. Debuffs
3. Level them up to GR40+
4. Psudeo-Greater Rifts containing Ubers
Amulet RNG.
The great leviathan lurking in the undercurrent sweeping up to denigrate useful to abysmal.
1. Socket along with main stat.
Off center or otherwise related suggestions to the above:
1. Key Icon when dropped like Legendary
2. Key drop announced in chat for multiplayer games
3. 2 Keys of each required for Infernal Machines but 100% drop chance on T6.
Arduous the path was until at last revealing grandeur beyond known means.
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
There's something else people have in their minds at all time that has not been considered in this thread and that is: SEASONS; players who play Seasons regularly have an inclination for this farming to be "easier" or "less painfull" since they find themselves doing it repetedly, which is completely reasonable since if you wanna be really competitive, a HFA helps a ton, but we're talking about an item that; well itemized, is NOT ONLY the very best in its slot (neck) but HAS BEEN "immune" to new patches and content and STILL IS the undisputed king of necklaces since its release, (with, perhaps, the exception of immunity necks in the particular scenario of Greater Rift pushing) and this phenomena is without precedent in any other gear slot.
Now we have the (quite noticiable) group of people who dont play Seasons, the value of an item like HFA should be in fact; legendary and the difficult to get it should be even more, since once you finally get it; it's forever.
Where am I going with this? What I seek to explain is that; the "pain threshold" a non-seasonal character is willing to suffer through to get this item; is extremely higher than a seasonal, since in seasons your time is limited and if you were to spend your days looking for that perfectly itemized HFA, it'd be counterproductive, since in that time you could have gotten upgrades that would probably surpass the actual power that a single HFA can provide.
So to sum, up what I mean with this is that; HFA is the most epicly legendary item that exists in Diablo 3 since its (perfectly itemized) singularity; can push you ahead from the rest in unthinkable ways, so it should be an item that takes you AGES to get in a single 2,000+ /played hours non-seasonal character, if we translate that to -a single season- we're left with the current situation which is: Only an extremely reduced (lucky) group of individuals actually get a perfectly itemized HFA.
But then again: Seasons now exist and the Devs (which I cant blame) are on a dilemma; they've found themselves in between the abyssal disparity of what "hard to get" means in Seasons and what it means in non-season, when truth is; an item as epic as this one, should NOT be "gettable" every season because it has preserved its non-seasonal "rarity", which is exactly as it should be.
I think Blizz has 2 options:
Because guys, lets get real, perfectly itemized Hellfire Jewelry is pretty much the only reward: real no-lifing nerds can feel proud of and DAMN does it feel good.
Hem.