So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Supposedly they are useful for characters now. Each character can increase damage significantly (1% per point dealing with point values ine the 200 range on individual items), vitality significantly at 10 HP per point, etc., etc. Now one thing I am concerned about is that each stat also adds to a type of defense (str=Armor; dex=Dodge; int=resistance; vit=Health Pool) so I don't know how that will work out in terms of choice viability. Will a character be more of a glass cannon if they focus on their primary stat and more of a tank if they spread points out evenly? or will the choice be Primary stat or Vitality and the other 2 don't matter? or some other outcome that I haven't come up wit yet? Lets hope that its not the second one at least...
In short they do matter, but how much each one matters for each class is up for debate.
So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Stats themselves aren't useless, the way they were handled in D2 made them so
In D3 all stat points have some use to all characters, be it Str on a Wiz increasing armour or Int on a Barb increasing resistances. As is, if I want to create a 'tank' barb I have to rely on items to do so. Why can I not create the character I want with stat point distribution and then 'round off the edges' with items? If I choose to make a Vit heavy build on my character I can then compensate if I feel the need, with items that do more damage or have Str on. If I choose to make a Str heavy Barb with limited points in Int for res, Dex for dodge and Vit for health pool and make more of a 'reckless beserker' approach, then why can't I?
Say I choose to make a shield block Barb and decide I don't care for dodge chances, then why would I ever want a point in Dex?
You guys are right and thats what i meant, i must have lost my train of thought somewhere, coupled with the fact that english is not my native tongue i ended up saying something completely different that what i meant.
D2 :
-Linear talent tree, you end up with 2 - 3 skills.
-Characteristics kind of useless, it's only used to gain more mana, health and be able to wear the best stuff.
If you want to get your point across, don't exaggerate the other side please.
in D2 the amount of skills varied between what class and build you used(However it was usually more than 2-3), in D3, the amount of skills will always remain at 6 at any one time.
Statistics were definitly NOT useless, you had to plan your character if you played hardcore.
Infact the only stat you didn't want on hardcore was Energy.
Thats good because is the only stat you won't get in D3 :D.
On a more serious note, as they corrected me earlier stats are still there, you want more dexterity, gear it up!
Besides that, now you have your primary atribute, which you're always want to max, and the secondary or derived stats (dodge, armor , resistance and life) which should be you focus.
You want more dodge, look for dodge and dex in your items. If its resistances you need, go find more res and int gear.
And its true with atribute points as rewards for leveling, you could boost those stats to further differientiate your character. but given the current system the most logical route would be to dump everything in your main stat, which will give you damage and some sort of defense.
Furthermore we need to realize (or realise) that one of the reasons stat points per level were removed from the game is because a a level 60 barbarian with 200 points of strenght will play in exactly the same way than a level 60 barbarian with 300 points of strenght.
Basically what Diablo III does is replace a bunch of semi-powerful specialists with just one uber-badass character. No need to have 20 different barbarians, cause just one is as powerful as any number of them you can create (gear aside, of course). To me, that will help foster a deeper relationship between player and character.
All that aside, he still pointed out the lack of skills you use at any given point in D2 was lower than in D3, when in reality it is higher.
Higher?
Name 1 build that actively used 6 skills or more in d2. Maybe one of the necro builds reach 6, but it was usually 1-2 skills spammed, with a few others for very, very rare occasions
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I can see what you see not. Vision milky, then eyes rot.
When you turn, they will be gone. Whispering their hidden song.
Then you see what cannot be. Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind. Cast down into the Halls of the Blind
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct?
Correct. But that's fine because there was no choice in where to put the attributes in D2. There was a right way and a wrong way. Any variation served only to weaken your character. STR to wear the gear you need and VIT.
Bottom line, there wasn't any real customization there, just the illusion.
...And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited.
What's the difference between clicking a skill once to get it and clicking it 100 times? Nothing.
Adding skill points to a skill increased it's power by A TINY ammount each time. It's very underwhelming and a bunch of skills aren't worth shit until you get enough points into them, where's the fun in that?
It's a much better feeling to simply acquire a skill in all it's glory, immediately powerful and useful, giving you more CHOICES since you don't have to pool up skill points or wait for the "right skills" to become powerful.
Talent trees have the same "illusion" of choice that the attributes had. The choices are rarely difficult to make, unlike in D3 where it's tough to decide exactly how you want to play because every skill has a use and is powerful from the get go. That's not counting how runes can completely alter the usage of a skill to your needs (CUSTOMIZATION!).
Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
First of all, controll over attributes has NO bearing on making a Melee Wizard if you choose. INT is your primary stat, it's your damage, whether you swing with an Axe or shoot a Magic Missile.
Also, playing in the Beta for 3 months now, I have seen SO many different builds (with overlapping skill choices of course) between players. I played with 5 different Monks in a matter of 2 hours one night and they ALL had 2 different skill/runes than each other.
This is in the beta, where we have EXTREMELY little to choose from and people are STILL choosing things differently. There is MUCH more diversity in builds in the beta of D3 than there was in D2 (I'm talking viable, not gimp variants).
The fact that you can access any skill doesn't take away the meaning of your choice. If you create a set of runes/skills tha allow you to kill faster and more efficiently, or to survive what kills most others, then YOUR CHOICES MATTERED.
People will have tons of different builds, it will be DIFFICULT to find people with the same skill/rune choices. THat's not taking gear into account yet either, which plays a huge role in what skills to use (crit, APS, etc...). I know this because it's already happening in the beta.
Bottom line:
THe POTENTIAL for everyone to be the same DOES NOT MEAN that everyone WILL be the same.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
I think you, and anyone else who thinks that way has stuff immensely wrong.
D3 customization trumps D2 in every way.
D3 replayability trumps D2 in every way (another complaint I hear).
Replay value won't come from FORCED REROLLS to experiement with new builds, it will come from the COMABT ITSELF.
The areas to farm are much larger now, the mobs to fight are more diverse. Hunting for large packs of rares/champs with 4 affixes making them incredibly different encounters with different strategies needed is awesome compared to D2 boss runs.
Then add in random events and Inferno monsters being higher level than players.
The combat is more strategic and challenging than ever in D3 compared to D2. You have more tools at your disposal (compared to D2's 2-3 skills maybe) and more things to fight against.
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But.....
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand /thread
No, I admitted that I didn't fully understand what I was talking about from the start. Then I asked some questions - and got 3 pages of discussion and answers. I've read every post and let me tell you, I'm completely convinced. xD After reading all this, looking at D3 website and videos, I understand how everything works. D3 is going to be epic to play, I can't wait for May 15th.
Someone above said that you could just have one Barbarian at level 60 now, and you would never have to start another one. You can just swap skills and change how he plays. So for example, could I have a level 60 wizard who had different gear sets? Like one gear set purely for a spellcaster, another gear set for melee wizard? (Plus different skills and runes)? So with the single character, I can change builds without needing to create another wizard? If so, that's sick.
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But.....
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand /thread
No, I admitted that I didn't fully understand what I was talking about from the start. Then I asked some questions - and got 3 pages of discussion and answers. I've read every post and let me tell you, I'm completely convinced. xD After reading all this, looking at D3 website and videos, I understand how everything works. D3 is going to be epic to play, I can't wait for May 15th.
Someone above said that you could just have one Barbarian at level 60 now, and you would never have to start another one. You can just swap skills and change how he plays. So for example, could I have a level 60 wizard who had different gear sets? Like one gear set purely for a spellcaster, another gear set for melee wizard? (Plus different skills and runes)? So with the single character, I can change builds without needing to create another wizard? If so, that's sick.
Yes. as long as you have the gear to support that build. If not, you would have to go farm gear, more than likely, to bring that character to be a viable option for Inferno gameplay.
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct? And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited. Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
In my view, the people bitching about Diablo 2 stat and skill points being removed are to be ignored. Most games have gone this route actually and until some renesaince in gaming "hardcorism" returns, this is what to expect.
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct? And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited. Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
In my view, the people bitching about Diablo 2 stat and skill points being removed are to be ignored. Most games have gone this route actually and until some renesaince in gaming "hardcorism" returns, this is what to expect.
Good riddance.
Dude relax and read the whole thread before flaming like that, the OP said at least twice in the thread the he understands the system now. He also said from the beginning that he doesn't know about it and really wanted to know.
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct? And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited. Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
The customization lost from the old skill tree has been enhanced by the customization gained through the new one, or rather from having to pick a few skills from many, and also because despite the fact you have fewer open slots for skills than skills in the first place by far, you also have many varients of each skill to choose from in the form of runes.
Attributes being gone is fine. Everyone just got the amount of stats they needed to equip gear, or get max block, and went pure vitality and that was that, if they knew anything at all. That really wasn't a way to customize your character for any half-decent player.
You still have a lot of things you can customize such as gear, dyes, banner and other elements still. The horadric cube is gone but we have new ways of crafting and the process is somewhat random all the same.
Don't worry friend, diablo 3 is going to be sick. Just two and a half weeks longer.
I was just going to link this but you beat me to it! +1 for you anyway!
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Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct?
Correct. But that's fine because there was no choice in where to put the attributes in D2. There was a right way and a wrong way. Any variation served only to weaken your character. STR to wear the gear you need and VIT.
Some people are just plain dense. You guys act like Diablo 3 would be "poorly designed" if they allowed you to allocate points a second time around.
SPOILER ALERT! They COULD HAVE DESIGNED THE GAME to make so that there WASN'T a RIGHT choice or a WRONG choice when it came to attributes. They could have different types of scaling with skills, gear or monsters this time around to make it so, let's say, a barb wanting to build intellect to do make magical spell damage with his attacks. That's just one simple example. Just because it was stupid to, let's say, dump points into mana in Diablo 2, doesn't mean it had to be that way in Diablo 3.
Some of you guys act like the game should be as close to Diablo 2 as possible, but then you RELIGIOUSLY avoid certain aspects of Diablo 2 and treat them like they were the plague. Then when the developers tell you "Herp, we couldn't do that because it ended up being an issue in D2 so we felt it would be an issue in D3," you blindly defend them and allow them not to be creatively or think outside of the box. You then think that letting them dumb down the game or keep very old game mechanics is a stroke of genius. Really now? It just lets this dev team be lazy and keeps you blissfully ignorant to what the 3rd game in this series could have been. You're encouraging lazy game design.
It really blows my mind how some people think letting them automate health, skills or stats is somehow advanced game design. WoW only let itself automate the players stats while leveling and slightly automated what skills you got, but in the game there was still more customization and WoW was infinitely more complex as a world and in its gameplay as well. Diablo 3 is ONLY PvM (players versus monsters) or PvE if you want to see it that way. It's a hell of a lot more simple than WoW was. You grind waves of monsters and there's a little crafting on the side.
I mean, for goodness sake, they at least had 10 or so different types of faces you could select for each WoW race to slightly alter your appearance. All you have in D3 is a male and female version. That seems extremely lazy and I know a handful of people that randomly said to me "Uh... you can't change what your character looks likes? That's pretty dumb..." I'm not even expecting them to have 5 different sliders to change how your damn nose looks like. It just comes off as really lazy!
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Some people tell me I'm going to hell. I just let them know that I've already packed my bags!
This horribly formed, ill-conceived argument... again?
"Customization" in Diablo II is a lie. Period.
When it came to stats you either did it the right way, i.e. enough str/dex to wear gear and the rest into vitality, or your character sucked. Having a choice between doing it one way or sucking is not really customization.
As for skills, so many were broken or pointless that there was only a handle of builds for each class. No one pumped lower level skills except as synergies, and anything worth taking was worth putting 20 points into 99% of the time, so skill points were fairly trivial as well. Almost every viable spec in Diablo II was based around 1 or 2 skills, so for all those dozens of skills spread out over three skill trees you used... one. Maybe two. Plus whatever was needed to get to them.
Enter Diablo III, where each class has 25~ viable skills, X5 skill runes for each, and six slots to put them in. That's a few billion possible combinations for each class without even talking about the 13~ passives for each class that will be quite game changing. But with a few billion ways to do it decently and conceivably thousands of way to do it really well, we're already talking about more customization than Diablo II ever dreamed of.
And did I mention that all of Diablo III's skills will work, and have working resource systems that are class appropriate to back them up?
Now enter in Diablo III's item pool. I'm betting it will be larger than Diablo II's anyway, but as we've already seen, the real defining factor here is that even the level 60 legendaries in Diablo III have randomized stats on them. Not randomized within a pre-existing selection of stats like the Diablo II items, but mod pools that will actually make two of the same legendary items essentially different items. Most customization in Diablo II was gleaned from the item selection, period. Enigma changed the game forever, entire specs were designed around it, etc. So instead of people determining the value of nice items in an asinine way like the defense on a Shako (aka Harlequin Crest), we'll actually be seeing trades done based on relevant things, and more importantly, we'll have a ton of customization options based on the randomized items we're finding. Not that there won't be tons of reason to stick to items that drastically increase our current character's primary attribute, but there will be tons of other things to consider as well.
I could expand on the consideration you posed as well as my answer, but since I've already fought and won this battle, I'll simply refer you to my blog post about it that was taken off the D3 forums:
This should be the never ending topic that will continue even after release no matter how much it is discussed debated and argued to the ground. And no one will ever listen to the other side save for some weirdos who can re access their views after hearing from someone with a different point of view [really weird].
So from now on, whenever I see 'this topic', I will simply nod my head and say 'yes'
what I meant was how many different ww builds will there be? what game doesnt have a linear progression?
d3 will last until d4 is released just as d2 has done. and the part about "if" is kinda hard for me to deal with. Ive been following the creation of d3 since pretty much the beginning and I know that it is everything d2 was and could ever dream to become. d2 has been in our heart for so many years, but its time to say goodbye.
Tto all of u out there who wants d2 back. spend a little time learning about d3 and u'll see that it is supperior.
I understood that, but what I'm saying is that if it would turn out in the same way as in D2, then you won't be seeing WW barbarians because in the long run, their build won't be viable, the only real difference between the 2 games are that in D2 you made a build and you had to commit fully to it, in D3 you can alter your build.
I don't want D2 back, I've done everything in that game atleast once,
I do however expect its successor to be just as good or better.
I definitly dont think D3 is superior to D2, they actually removed a really good system from D2 rather than build and improve it(The runes + runewords). It'll still be a fun game tho so don't worry.
Why won't you see a WW barbarian? You can't even tangibly debate that yet as we haven't had the skill in our hands as of yet. The skill looks plenty viable to me, however. But if you're suggesting that someone won't be able to use just a single skill, then you're both right, and disproving your own point. In fact, if the game is designed correctly, you shouldn't be able to just use one skill. That's the beauty of having a couple dozen skills that work for each class, we don't have to be one-hit wonders like in Diablo II.
Diablo III's skill system >>>>>>>>>>>> Diablo II's skill system.
How is Diablo III not superior? In every way? The skill system and proper design of resource systems alone is enough for me to say that it's light-years beyond. Nostalgia is not a factor here, the fact is that this game is better designed. Diablo II is a great game, and was ground-breaking... ten years ago. But it has also always been in a constant state of broken. From one patch to the next entire builds became unviable or just outright broken. In almost every major patch, I can think of at least one popular build that was based around things being bugged, such as the Iron Maiden Blood Golem Necro that ruled D2 Classic for quite a while.
Runewords? Omg no. Don't even go there. Engima pretty much ruined the game. They NEVER intended for every class to teleport through content. Ever. The godly 1.1 runewords were pretty much implemented to counteract how ridiculously hard they had made hell, so in one sense of the word they were "necessary". Overall though, they should have just found better ways to balance the harder difficulties. But if you really think about it, runewords are still just an extension of item customization and in that way, they can easily be replaced by a larger pool of better-designed items, which I believe we'll have.
As to committing to a build, permanence does not equal value. They've said multiple times that they agree with that, and don't find anything to be added simply by making someone remake a character if they make a mistake. I agree.
You know lots of people, including famous and well respected scientists, profesionals and academicians in theor respectful fields said at one point or another that the airplane, radio, telephone, automobile and electric lighting would not have any practical uses and would not be succesful.
it happens all the time. People are afraid of change, people like things to stay the same. But thing always change and many times for the best.
People who want to keep some or all the mechanics of d2 are just like the conservative individuals that though this new inventions wouldn't work. All of this inventions and the systems of d3 have gone throu lot sof though and are what have been found to be most optimal backed by empirical evidence. They run models of this systems. They hire ecnomists to tell them how to mantain the ecnomy of te game and the way people make choices. They hire matemathians and game theorist to develop content and balance the game. THey hire psychologist to inform them that the average individual doesn't like permanent choices, even if they say they do.
It'll be ok. the game will be great, we will enjoy it. relax, Allow yourself to enjoy the game, as in the end,it'll be your preconceptions and prejudices will be what wont allow you to enjoy it, not the systems and changes from D2.
Why do people want stats? Most went to vitality anyway, some into dex, enough for gear in strength and none at all in energy. That was how 99% of stats in builds were distributed. I fail to see the customization in that. Maybe because D2 never had any at all, however people are fooled to believe that there was. I guess people like clicking those 5 times each level (+1 for skill points).
EDIT: stat points in D2 were so boring anyway, almost nothing happened when you distributed them.
Oh how I love posts like yours.
Ok where do I start? First off you are severely wrong about D2 stats and builds. "Most" people did that build because they sucked to bad at the game to make their own and they just pose others.
Secondly, that build you stated is not required nor is it the only solution. You can easily play the game and have fun with 10+ skills and have like 160 str and 150 dex and rest in vita or energy with any class.
You fail to see the customization in that because you obviously were a poser and couldn't handle the game on your own. I know it is harsh, but that is the truth.
Now your argument that D2 stats didn't do much, I kinda agree with you to an extent. So instead of correcting that and making them useful why not just throw em all out because that is easier right?
Just because something didn't work in D2 doesn't mean it couldn't work in D3.
IMVHO, if it's broken then fix it, don't just throw it away
now where di you guys come up with the idea that Stats are thrown away? they are just pre allocated your just mad you can't put all your stats in Energy! lol
Why do people want stats? Most went to vitality anyway, some into dex, enough for gear in strength and none at all in energy. That was how 99% of stats in builds were distributed. I fail to see the customization in that. Maybe because D2 never had any at all, however people are fooled to believe that there was. I guess people like clicking those 5 times each level (+1 for skill points).
EDIT: stat points in D2 were so boring anyway, almost nothing happened when you distributed them.
Oh how I love posts like yours.
Ok where do I start? First off you are severely wrong about D2 stats and builds. "Most" people did that build because they sucked to bad at the game to make their own and they just pose others.
Secondly, that build you stated is not required nor is it the only solution. You can easily play the game and have fun with 10+ skills and have like 160 str and 150 dex and rest in vita or energy with any class.
You fail to see the customization in that because you obviously were a poser and couldn't handle the game on your own. I know it is harsh, but that is the truth.
Now your argument that D2 stats didn't do much, I kinda agree with you to an extent. So instead of correcting that and making them useful why not just throw em all out because that is easier right?
Just because something didn't work in D2 doesn't mean it couldn't work in D3.
IMVHO, if it's broken then fix it, don't just throw it away
now where di you guys come up with the idea that Stats are thrown away? they are just pre allocated your just mad you can't put all your stats in Energy! lol
Imho and in most game developers opinion, a game where most people suck and some where good at its a poorly designed game.
almost everybody should be good at it and some people should excel. Even at university, if most the group fails an item in a test, the item is removed from the test.
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You guys are right and thats what i meant, i must have lost my train of thought somewhere, coupled with the fact that english is not my native tongue i ended up saying something completely different that what i meant.
Thats good because is the only stat you won't get in D3 :D.
On a more serious note, as they corrected me earlier stats are still there, you want more dexterity, gear it up!
Besides that, now you have your primary atribute, which you're always want to max, and the secondary or derived stats (dodge, armor , resistance and life) which should be you focus.
You want more dodge, look for dodge and dex in your items. If its resistances you need, go find more res and int gear.
And its true with atribute points as rewards for leveling, you could boost those stats to further differientiate your character. but given the current system the most logical route would be to dump everything in your main stat, which will give you damage and some sort of defense.
Furthermore we need to realize (or realise) that one of the reasons stat points per level were removed from the game is because a a level 60 barbarian with 200 points of strenght will play in exactly the same way than a level 60 barbarian with 300 points of strenght.
Higher?
Name 1 build that actively used 6 skills or more in d2. Maybe one of the necro builds reach 6, but it was usually 1-2 skills spammed, with a few others for very, very rare occasions
Correct. But that's fine because there was no choice in where to put the attributes in D2. There was a right way and a wrong way. Any variation served only to weaken your character. STR to wear the gear you need and VIT.
Bottom line, there wasn't any real customization there, just the illusion.
What's the difference between clicking a skill once to get it and clicking it 100 times? Nothing.
Adding skill points to a skill increased it's power by A TINY ammount each time. It's very underwhelming and a bunch of skills aren't worth shit until you get enough points into them, where's the fun in that?
It's a much better feeling to simply acquire a skill in all it's glory, immediately powerful and useful, giving you more CHOICES since you don't have to pool up skill points or wait for the "right skills" to become powerful.
Talent trees have the same "illusion" of choice that the attributes had. The choices are rarely difficult to make, unlike in D3 where it's tough to decide exactly how you want to play because every skill has a use and is powerful from the get go. That's not counting how runes can completely alter the usage of a skill to your needs (CUSTOMIZATION!).
First of all, controll over attributes has NO bearing on making a Melee Wizard if you choose. INT is your primary stat, it's your damage, whether you swing with an Axe or shoot a Magic Missile.
Also, playing in the Beta for 3 months now, I have seen SO many different builds (with overlapping skill choices of course) between players. I played with 5 different Monks in a matter of 2 hours one night and they ALL had 2 different skill/runes than each other.
This is in the beta, where we have EXTREMELY little to choose from and people are STILL choosing things differently. There is MUCH more diversity in builds in the beta of D3 than there was in D2 (I'm talking viable, not gimp variants).
The fact that you can access any skill doesn't take away the meaning of your choice. If you create a set of runes/skills tha allow you to kill faster and more efficiently, or to survive what kills most others, then YOUR CHOICES MATTERED.
People will have tons of different builds, it will be DIFFICULT to find people with the same skill/rune choices. THat's not taking gear into account yet either, which plays a huge role in what skills to use (crit, APS, etc...). I know this because it's already happening in the beta.
Bottom line:
THe POTENTIAL for everyone to be the same DOES NOT MEAN that everyone WILL be the same.
I think you, and anyone else who thinks that way has stuff immensely wrong.
D3 customization trumps D2 in every way.
D3 replayability trumps D2 in every way (another complaint I hear).
Replay value won't come from FORCED REROLLS to experiement with new builds, it will come from the COMABT ITSELF.
The areas to farm are much larger now, the mobs to fight are more diverse. Hunting for large packs of rares/champs with 4 affixes making them incredibly different encounters with different strategies needed is awesome compared to D2 boss runs.
Then add in random events and Inferno monsters being higher level than players.
The combat is more strategic and challenging than ever in D3 compared to D2. You have more tools at your disposal (compared to D2's 2-3 skills maybe) and more things to fight against.
That's why you'll keep replaying.
No, I admitted that I didn't fully understand what I was talking about from the start. Then I asked some questions - and got 3 pages of discussion and answers. I've read every post and let me tell you, I'm completely convinced. xD After reading all this, looking at D3 website and videos, I understand how everything works. D3 is going to be epic to play, I can't wait for May 15th.
Someone above said that you could just have one Barbarian at level 60 now, and you would never have to start another one. You can just swap skills and change how he plays. So for example, could I have a level 60 wizard who had different gear sets? Like one gear set purely for a spellcaster, another gear set for melee wizard? (Plus different skills and runes)? So with the single character, I can change builds without needing to create another wizard? If so, that's sick.
Yes. as long as you have the gear to support that build. If not, you would have to go farm gear, more than likely, to bring that character to be a viable option for Inferno gameplay.
In my view, the people bitching about Diablo 2 stat and skill points being removed are to be ignored. Most games have gone this route actually and until some renesaince in gaming "hardcorism" returns, this is what to expect.
Good riddance.
http://www.wowhq.com
Dude relax and read the whole thread before flaming like that, the OP said at least twice in the thread the he understands the system now. He also said from the beginning that he doesn't know about it and really wanted to know.
Attributes being gone is fine. Everyone just got the amount of stats they needed to equip gear, or get max block, and went pure vitality and that was that, if they knew anything at all. That really wasn't a way to customize your character for any half-decent player.
You still have a lot of things you can customize such as gear, dyes, banner and other elements still. The horadric cube is gone but we have new ways of crafting and the process is somewhat random all the same.
Don't worry friend, diablo 3 is going to be sick. Just two and a half weeks longer.
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
Some people are just plain dense. You guys act like Diablo 3 would be "poorly designed" if they allowed you to allocate points a second time around.
SPOILER ALERT! They COULD HAVE DESIGNED THE GAME to make so that there WASN'T a RIGHT choice or a WRONG choice when it came to attributes. They could have different types of scaling with skills, gear or monsters this time around to make it so, let's say, a barb wanting to build intellect to do make magical spell damage with his attacks. That's just one simple example. Just because it was stupid to, let's say, dump points into mana in Diablo 2, doesn't mean it had to be that way in Diablo 3.
Some of you guys act like the game should be as close to Diablo 2 as possible, but then you RELIGIOUSLY avoid certain aspects of Diablo 2 and treat them like they were the plague. Then when the developers tell you "Herp, we couldn't do that because it ended up being an issue in D2 so we felt it would be an issue in D3," you blindly defend them and allow them not to be creatively or think outside of the box. You then think that letting them dumb down the game or keep very old game mechanics is a stroke of genius. Really now? It just lets this dev team be lazy and keeps you blissfully ignorant to what the 3rd game in this series could have been. You're encouraging lazy game design.
It really blows my mind how some people think letting them automate health, skills or stats is somehow advanced game design. WoW only let itself automate the players stats while leveling and slightly automated what skills you got, but in the game there was still more customization and WoW was infinitely more complex as a world and in its gameplay as well. Diablo 3 is ONLY PvM (players versus monsters) or PvE if you want to see it that way. It's a hell of a lot more simple than WoW was. You grind waves of monsters and there's a little crafting on the side.
I mean, for goodness sake, they at least had 10 or so different types of faces you could select for each WoW race to slightly alter your appearance. All you have in D3 is a male and female version. That seems extremely lazy and I know a handful of people that randomly said to me "Uh... you can't change what your character looks likes? That's pretty dumb..." I'm not even expecting them to have 5 different sliders to change how your damn nose looks like. It just comes off as really lazy!
Really?
This horribly formed, ill-conceived argument... again?
"Customization" in Diablo II is a lie. Period.
When it came to stats you either did it the right way, i.e. enough str/dex to wear gear and the rest into vitality, or your character sucked. Having a choice between doing it one way or sucking is not really customization.
As for skills, so many were broken or pointless that there was only a handle of builds for each class. No one pumped lower level skills except as synergies, and anything worth taking was worth putting 20 points into 99% of the time, so skill points were fairly trivial as well. Almost every viable spec in Diablo II was based around 1 or 2 skills, so for all those dozens of skills spread out over three skill trees you used... one. Maybe two. Plus whatever was needed to get to them.
Enter Diablo III, where each class has 25~ viable skills, X5 skill runes for each, and six slots to put them in. That's a few billion possible combinations for each class without even talking about the 13~ passives for each class that will be quite game changing. But with a few billion ways to do it decently and conceivably thousands of way to do it really well, we're already talking about more customization than Diablo II ever dreamed of.
And did I mention that all of Diablo III's skills will work, and have working resource systems that are class appropriate to back them up?
Now enter in Diablo III's item pool. I'm betting it will be larger than Diablo II's anyway, but as we've already seen, the real defining factor here is that even the level 60 legendaries in Diablo III have randomized stats on them. Not randomized within a pre-existing selection of stats like the Diablo II items, but mod pools that will actually make two of the same legendary items essentially different items. Most customization in Diablo II was gleaned from the item selection, period. Enigma changed the game forever, entire specs were designed around it, etc. So instead of people determining the value of nice items in an asinine way like the defense on a Shako (aka Harlequin Crest), we'll actually be seeing trades done based on relevant things, and more importantly, we'll have a ton of customization options based on the randomized items we're finding. Not that there won't be tons of reason to stick to items that drastically increase our current character's primary attribute, but there will be tons of other things to consider as well.
I could expand on the consideration you posed as well as my answer, but since I've already fought and won this battle, I'll simply refer you to my blog post about it that was taken off the D3 forums:
http://www.diablofans.com/blog/181/entry-603-my-answer-to-diablo-vets-who-hate-diablo-iii/
This should be the never ending topic that will continue even after release no matter how much it is discussed debated and argued to the ground. And no one will ever listen to the other side save for some weirdos who can re access their views after hearing from someone with a different point of view [really weird].
So from now on, whenever I see 'this topic', I will simply nod my head and say 'yes'
'yes'
Why won't you see a WW barbarian? You can't even tangibly debate that yet as we haven't had the skill in our hands as of yet. The skill looks plenty viable to me, however. But if you're suggesting that someone won't be able to use just a single skill, then you're both right, and disproving your own point. In fact, if the game is designed correctly, you shouldn't be able to just use one skill. That's the beauty of having a couple dozen skills that work for each class, we don't have to be one-hit wonders like in Diablo II.
Diablo III's skill system >>>>>>>>>>>> Diablo II's skill system.
How is Diablo III not superior? In every way? The skill system and proper design of resource systems alone is enough for me to say that it's light-years beyond. Nostalgia is not a factor here, the fact is that this game is better designed. Diablo II is a great game, and was ground-breaking... ten years ago. But it has also always been in a constant state of broken. From one patch to the next entire builds became unviable or just outright broken. In almost every major patch, I can think of at least one popular build that was based around things being bugged, such as the Iron Maiden Blood Golem Necro that ruled D2 Classic for quite a while.
Runewords? Omg no. Don't even go there. Engima pretty much ruined the game. They NEVER intended for every class to teleport through content. Ever. The godly 1.1 runewords were pretty much implemented to counteract how ridiculously hard they had made hell, so in one sense of the word they were "necessary". Overall though, they should have just found better ways to balance the harder difficulties. But if you really think about it, runewords are still just an extension of item customization and in that way, they can easily be replaced by a larger pool of better-designed items, which I believe we'll have.
As to committing to a build, permanence does not equal value. They've said multiple times that they agree with that, and don't find anything to be added simply by making someone remake a character if they make a mistake. I agree.
it happens all the time. People are afraid of change, people like things to stay the same. But thing always change and many times for the best.
People who want to keep some or all the mechanics of d2 are just like the conservative individuals that though this new inventions wouldn't work. All of this inventions and the systems of d3 have gone throu lot sof though and are what have been found to be most optimal backed by empirical evidence. They run models of this systems. They hire ecnomists to tell them how to mantain the ecnomy of te game and the way people make choices. They hire matemathians and game theorist to develop content and balance the game. THey hire psychologist to inform them that the average individual doesn't like permanent choices, even if they say they do.
It'll be ok. the game will be great, we will enjoy it. relax, Allow yourself to enjoy the game, as in the end,it'll be your preconceptions and prejudices will be what wont allow you to enjoy it, not the systems and changes from D2.
now where di you guys come up with the idea that Stats are thrown away? they are just pre allocated your just mad you can't put all your stats in Energy! lol
Imho and in most game developers opinion, a game where most people suck and some where good at its a poorly designed game.
almost everybody should be good at it and some people should excel. Even at university, if most the group fails an item in a test, the item is removed from the test.