If skill points are gone, then class sub-identities will suffer. For example, in D2 you could be a frozen orb sorc, nova sorc, meteor sorc, etc. With this system, you're just a sorc (or, in D3's case, Wizard).
dude did you actually read what was said? I've actually stated several times in this topic that runes are the only hope we have especially with the attunement feature they talked about. So why would you use that as a counter arguement? Try explaining the in validness of the Build A vs Build B thing i just posted not something the topic has already covered. This is a discussion if your going to say someones point is invalid don't do it by proposing an argument that has already been covered as our only hope (as I claim it to be). If you need assitance the last post is about 2 things
A
it is removing player customization
and B
Becasue everything through out the game is available to you and everyone else the best builds will be known in a rediculously(<--- this word is stressed) quick amount time , in comparrison.)
When you play a game like this your suppose to feel like the build you wanna make is getting better and better even if it's not the best. Build B promotes a feeling of wow I like playing blank build but if I use these skills I'm so much better. And the build B vs build A argument both have uses of runes so again can you please read a lil more critically and contribute to the conversation?
How exactly is it removing customization? Customization is not achieved through the distribution of the skill points it's achieved through the actual skills you choose to use and that is something that has not changed. The skill points were just a mechanism for gauging the strength of those skills compared to your character level.
The only "customization" functionality you're losing with the new system is the ability to make your characters weaker, either on purpose or otherwise. All other functionality is still intact.
In the new system you still have to choose which skills you want, but now you don't need to worry about which skills you want weaker then others. You just use all of your skills with the same amount of relative strength (your character level).
The depth of the system isn't dependent on the allocation of the skill points. It's dependent on the active skills chosen and why. You still need to think about how each of the skills affect your build and how they will interact. That's not to mention the fact that you will have runes, gear and passive skills to deal with too.
Why is this so hard to grasp for everyone? Step back a minute and really think about how this affects the system, because, it doesn't.
If skill points are gone, then class sub-identities will suffer. For example, in D2 you could be a frozen orb sorc, nova sorc, meteor sorc, etc. With this system, you're just a sorc (or, in D3's case, Wizard).
dude did you actually read what was said? I've actually stated several times in this topic that runes are the only hope we have especially with the attunement feature they talked about. So why would you use that as a counter arguement? Try explaining the in validness of the Build A vs Build B thing i just posted not something the topic has already covered. This is a discussion if your going to say someones point is invalid don't do it by proposing an argument that has already been covered as our only hope (as I claim it to be). If you need assitance the last post is about 2 things
A
it is removing player customization
and B
Becasue everything through out the game is available to you and everyone else the best builds will be known in a rediculously(<--- this word is stressed) quick amount time , in comparrison.)
When you play a game like this your suppose to feel like the build you wanna make is getting better and better even if it's not the best. Build B promotes a feeling of wow I like playing blank build but if I use these skills I'm so much better. And the build B vs build A argument both have uses of runes so again can you please read a lil more critically and contribute to the conversation?
How exactly is it removing customization? Customization is not achieved through the distribution of the skill points it's achieved through the actual skills you choose to use and that is something that has not changed. The skill points were just a mechanism for gauging the strength of those skills compared to your character level.
The only "customization" functionality you're losing with the new system is the ability to make your characters weaker, either on purpose or otherwise. All other functionality is still intact.
In the new system you still have to choose which skills you want, but now you don't need to worry about which skills you want weaker then others. You just use all of your skills with the same amount of relative strength (your character level).
The depth of the system isn't dependent on the allocation of the skill points. It's dependent on the active skills chosen and why. You still need to think about how each of the skills affect your build and how they will interact. That's not to mention the fact that you will have runes, gear and passive skills to deal with too.
Why is this so hard to grasp for everyone? Step back a minute and really think about how this affects the system, because, it doesn't.
Repost
Build A
You have 30 skills with 92 billion rune variants each of these 30 skills you have 60 (or what ever) points to put into them that make skills more effective as you lvl up. As u level up more and spend points the numbers of what the skills do become avaialable to you. you have barely any clue what more than 6,7, maybe even 8 skills really do when it comes to the math the numbers. You get a feel for the gear and what you need to do to ephasize the role your trying to play.
Build B
You have 30 skills with 92 billion rune variants each of theese 30 skills are available to you to switch out for you 6 active skills. As you lvl up all the ones available to you at that lvl lvl with you. the numbers are right there and it very quickly becomes apparent that the build you wanted to do is obsolete. You have 3 passive skills that you can use to customize things any maybe that will change things a bit you do maybe 2 mins of math and you realize your build isn't that bad and considering you know at this point in the game exactly what every skill does and with in the three options you can make to change it. You start playing the gear game that was available just as much in Build A.
Build A
players get to make choices about there character and make those choices develope and feel more powerful.
Build B
players get every skill then makes chioces on how they want to build there char but it becomes obvious extremely fast what the good skill choices are and everyone knows the best build(s) in 1 month becasue its all right there.
to quote a movie " When everybody is perfect....nobody is"
Your skill choices don't have to change on either build A or B but how your choices actually feel will as a direct result! Edit note and in comparison from build A to build B as the player YOU still have less control over the cards your handed less customization. But again the attunement system they have that they are trying to craft can still bring build B back to an acceptable balance and if they do do something very close to that I will no longer have a valid point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
to quote a movie " When everybody is perfect....nobody is"
Your skill choices don't have to change on either build A or B but how your choices actually feel will as a direct result!
Ok, double posting doesn't really enhance you're argument. I read your first post.
I'm not going to argue your "feelings" about a system because I can't, it'd be silly. We all can feel a certain way about things. But just because we feel something doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
My skill choices are still going to "grow in power and develop" from level to level like they would have before, so, again, what you're really saying is you want the option for your character (or other people's characters) to suck more because they allocate their skill points wrong or differently. You like math for the sake of math, I get it.
Hey, if that's the system you want then I can't argue. But that's all you're getting from the old system compared to the new. I say focus on the stuff that really defines your character and let the system do all the stupid math for you.
The way a game feels is important to everyone. And when you get in the game build the char the way you want to build it if you didnt pick one of the best builds by luck or lets say you picked one of the worst you are going to know it the moment you test out another skill why because you didn't have a choice to be bad at anything. And when your playing an RPG the way you wanted to in your mind and you can find out that quickly that your build sucks it feels bad for everyone, not just me. Yes your powers are going to grow and be stronger but so is every single other skill. Do you have a build in mind how would it feel your at lvl 30 and you already found out it sucked? Unless your going with a build and your not even gonna try out other skills your going to know too much to create an illusion of supreme power unless of course the build you picked rocks and you lucked out on that. Part of every good RPGs char customization is having things you choose to be bad and that choice effects the feel of the game for everyone! And i double posted in hopes that you would be able to pull more info out of it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
The way a game feels is important to everyone. And when you get in the game build the char the way you want to build it if you didnt pick one of the best builds by luck or lets say you picked one of the worst you are going to know it the moment you test out another skill why because you didn't have a choice to be bad at anything. And when your playing an RPG the way you wanted to in your mind and you can find out that quickly that your build sucks it feels bad for everyone, not just me. Yes your powers are going to grow and be stronger but so is every single other skill. Do you have a build in mind how would it feel your at lvl 30 and you already found out it sucked? Unless your going with a build and your not even gonna try out other skills your going to know too much to create an illusion of supreme power unless of course the build you picked rocks and you lucked out on that. Part of every good RPGs char customization is having things you choose to be bad and that choice effects the feel of the game for everyone! And i double posted in hopes that you would be able to pull more info out of it.
Sheesh it is super hard to read your posts.
Ok, so I think we agree, even if you want to portray it as a conflicting idea, you're really saying you like to have the option to make sucky characters because it changes the gaming experience for you. It helps reinforce the fact that you made a good decision later, with different skills. I get that and I can respect that.
But that's completely different then saying the system limits your customization of the character. It might change the way you intend to "experience" the character, but the system is fundamentally the same.
What you really don't like is the ability to change your character so easily. And that sort of change was introduced with the idea of respecing characters much longer ago, not with the change to the skill system.
The good news is you can still mess characters up. I haven't really looked to much at the skills, mainly because they keep changing, so I don't have an example ready. But, given the number of skill combinations, you can still pair up skills that just don't work well together.
Yea I think your hitting the nail on the head pretty much but in my opinion choosing what skills your bad/good at is customization and in the respec build while your building your char you don't know how awesome all the other skills until you put points into them so if it is bad it can still be fun. You still make choices that make the build your trying to make, feel awesome with out having to see that well another skill at the same level is 10 times better(or whatever). And respecing its self was a choice that you'd have to spend in game currency on and you don't really know if your going to make another build that is better or worse. I mean eventually after playing the game alot your are gonna start to know. but with how it is now that's all very different. (lol yea my articulation is atrocious at times)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
Yea I think your hitting the nail on the head pretty much but in my opinion choosing what skills your bad/good at is customization and in the respec build while your building your char you don't know how awesome all the other skills until you put points into them so if it is bad it can still be fun. You still make choices that make the build your trying to make, feel awesome with out having to see that well another skill at the same level is 10 times better(or whatever). And respecing its self was a choice that you'd have to spend in game currency on and you don't really know if your going to make another build that is better or worse. I mean eventually after playing the game alot your are gonna start to know. but with how it is now that's all very different. (lol yea my articulation is atrocious at times)
Well most of that is also mitigated in a well balanced system where you don't have such wildly varying strengths of similar skills. Whether or not that can be achieved in D3 -we have no idea.
Yea I think your hitting the nail on the head pretty much but in my opinion choosing what skills your bad/good at is customization and in the respec build while your building your char you don't know how awesome all the other skills until you put points into them so if it is bad it can still be fun. You still make choices that make the build your trying to make, feel awesome with out having to see that well another skill at the same level is 10 times better(or whatever). And respecing its self was a choice that you'd have to spend in game currency on and you don't really know if your going to make another build that is better or worse. I mean eventually after playing the game alot your are gonna start to know. but with how it is now that's all very different. (lol yea my articulation is atrocious at times)
Well most of that is also mitigated in a well balanced system where you don't have such wildly varying strengths of similar skills. Whether or not that can be achieved in D3 -we have no idea.
It's definitely a very bold move and raises cause for concern but you are correct we don't have any Idea yet and if they do go through with something like the attunement system that would definitely bring back that level of mystery you got from the skill point system that I do think is detrimental to the feel of the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
The way a game feels is important to everyone. And when you get in the game build the char the way you want to build it if you didnt pick one of the best builds by luck or lets say you picked one of the worst you are going to know it the moment you test out another skill why because you didn't have a choice to be bad at anything. And when your playing an RPG the way you wanted to in your mind and you can find out that quickly that your build sucks it feels bad for everyone, not just me. Yes your powers are going to grow and be stronger but so is every single other skill. Do you have a build in mind how would it feel your at lvl 30 and you already found out it sucked? Unless your going with a build and your not even gonna try out other skills your going to know too much to create an illusion of supreme power unless of course the build you picked rocks and you lucked out on that. Part of every good RPGs char customization is having things you choose to be bad and that choice effects the feel of the game for everyone! And i double posted in hopes that you would be able to pull more info out of it.
Yeah, your posts are a bit hard to read.
The wall of text strikes the eye for a crit.
I think I want to add a few things that I've said in other posts:
"Besides, isn't leveling up reward enough. You grow stronger, can equip better gear, unlock skill slots, unlock skills, gain the chance to get better drops, and your skills improve. In my mind it's still rewards being given, even though it's not points being thrown your way.
In Diablo 1 there wasn't even skills, you only had spells dependent on book drops, and they were the same for each class. Your power was technically randomly generated.
In Diablo 2 skills became differentiated and had purpose behind them. They were still limiting, allowing only so much progression and allowing a lot of room for mistakes. It widened the space between casual and expert play by such a huge margin that to advance you almost needed guides for help.
In Diablo 3 everything revolves around deeper customization. With skills you can fine tune your line up, and then further customize them with runes to fit your play style perfectly. You can further enchant your gear, and you can add sockets, remove gems, upgrade gems, all to your liking. The game is all about fine tuned play and I think this allow Blizzard to really focus on making Nightmare and Hell (and Inferno??) as difficult as possible. Diablo 3 feels more and more like the natural evolution of the Diablo series."
"With respeccing you will need to take the long way around. Pay over and over for trial and error. It's a lame penalization for getting your desired build. And the monetary restriction isn't even that much of a compelling decision making device, it's merely an annoying hurdle. Some people will use real world currency, but most will simply grind away to get the desired amount of gold so they can do trial and error runs to get to their desired build. If you refer to this as a challenging gameplay experience then sadly you've got it backwards.
Freeing skills removes that long way around crap. Respec just makes it difficult and annoying to get to the fun part of actually playing the game. At least now you wont need to spend cash needlessly to play around with the skills. Now you can build your character and learn his system, while still playing through the actual game."
Basically, Diablo 3 will bring you a true level of customization. Think about it. Blizzard can go crazy with difficulties, they can really push Nightmare and Hell without considering those who mucked up their skill builds. If you're struggling, you can now just swop around some skills, fitting in what you feel is lacking. This will still differentiate between casual and experienced players. Casuals will fiddle around, while skilled players will see, know and feel what works and where.
If they make all skills viable and even work well together, then you will see a lot of builds. Instead of 4 Sorcerer builds, maybe now we will get 16 Wizard builds. The great part is you can switch around between them, experiment to find new builds without a lame mechanic penalizing you and holding you back.
Yea I think you make some good points there. I strongly disagree with what you say about respeccing and customization.
So against your respec statement, Let's say we were playing an action RPG about real life. I roled a nurse. I'm half way into the game I want to switch to a nuclear physicist(we will say that is the difference between a damage barb and a defensive barb if there was such a thing). I should'nt be able to do that with out consequence period, it's silly. You as the character are suppose to make choices that dictate you'r role and its effectiveness. Would you be doing the job your doing right now in life if you were good at everything? Probably not. You would test out other things and very quickly realize what the best thing was, making the way you originally wanted to build your character(aka live your life) seem silly and less fulfilling.
For this very same reason the customization is less and I mentioned it earlier in this topic. Being bad at things and not knowing things is customization and a part of anyone anwhere who is going to specialize in somethings life, and we are building a character in this world of sanctuary. That is a big part of where the word RPG came from in this action RPG game.
this is what I mentioned I posted earlier so you don't have to go digging
"Yea I think your hitting the nail on the head pretty much but in my opinion choosing what skills your bad/good at is customization and in the respec build while your building your char you don't know how awesome all the other skills until you put points into them so if it is bad it can still be/feel fun. You still make choices that make the build your trying to make, feel awesome with out having to see that well another skill at the same level is 10 times better(or whatever). And respecing its self was a choice that you'd have to spend in game currency on and you don't really know if your going to make another build that is better or worse. I mean eventually after playing the game alot your are gonna start to know. but with how it is now that's all very different. (lol yea my articulation is atrocious at times)"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
I think you are assuming that builds will become obsolete. That's dangerous thinking, because you don't know that. You don't know that at all.
The problem with your claims that people will give up this or that move for stronger ones until everyone has the same build is that it is a flawed claim based on simplified arguments. An earlier example you used was, and I may not have these skill names right, "You can't use a Black Ice wizard in PvP, you need the damage output of a Disintegrate wizard." Well that's an overly simplified argument. Because it's not a Black Ice wizard, it's a Black Ice/Magic Missile/Shock Armor/Disintegrate/Teleport/Arcane Orb wizard. The beauty of the current system is that if there is not a one-skill fix to every battle situation, then every build has inherent weaknesses that can be exploited by someone of the same class with a different skillset. Maybe this Wizard goes for pure mobility and damage output, but this other one sacrifices that same mobility for moves that freeze or slow the enemy. Well now we've got someone who uses easy to aim moves because they're jumping around so much, and someone who plans on keeping you in one spot and doing way more damage. Which one is better, because if their specialties (mobility and immobilizing) are so at odds, there's not a better and worse build, there's just a better and worse player.
Now that no one of our six moves is weak by the time we're level 60, the idea of "better" and "worse" builds fades. Yes, obviously there are high level moves that do high level effects and high level damage. But those moves take up high level resource and have high level cooldowns, and I can see someone who relies on these moves getting steamrolled by a player who uses enough rapidfire moves with small resource cost to basically never stop hitting you.
Reality check: there is just no such thing as a wrong way to play in this new system. I think it was you who said earlier that if everyone's perfect, then no one is. Well, that's true in this case, because if everyone can play their own style and have it be viable in the arena, then no one can inherently be better than the others.
Really, I can't take you arguments very heavily when none of us have played the game yet until you can provide arguments on your side that account for the facts that
A. everyone will be forced to use their entire skill pool (6 skills) to be effective in high level arenas.
B. no one can spam the most powerful moves in the game thanks to cooldowns and smart resource systems.
C. anyone who uses X or Y move as their staple is vulnerable to someone who utilizes in any way a move or fighting style that exploits the weakness of that staple.
Reposting as a topic because it's that darn important.
Ok so is no one worried about the big chunk of customization blizzard took out of skills????????? You can't specialize and feel like your the most powerful wiz or wahtever because there will be only like one or two builds per class that are really the best at destroying things.
How do you figure that?
Each class has 20 active skills and 15 passive skills, unless you have played the game you cant comment on that.
I think there will be quite a few good builds in the game, at least as much variety like Diablo 2 if not more, i guess time will tell.... but until then all this whining is a moot point.
Do you really believe that out of 15 passive (u can pick 3) and 20 active (you can pick 6) there would only be 1-2 builds that are enjoyable?
Thats like saying that only 1 build per sorc tree was viable in Diablo 2, only 1 frost, only 1 fire and only 1 lightening.
I think you are assuming that builds will become obsolete. That's dangerous thinking, because you don't know that. You don't know that at all.
The problem with your claims that people will give up this or that move for stronger ones until everyone has the same build is that it is a flawed claim based on simplified arguments. An earlier example you used was, and I may not have these skill names right, "You can't use a Black Ice wizard in PvP, you need the damage output of a Disintegrate wizard." Well that's an overly simplified argument. Because it's not a Black Ice wizard, it's a Black Ice/Magic Missile/Shock Armor/Disintegrate/Teleport/Arcane Orb wizard. The beauty of the current system is that if there is not a one-skill fix to every battle situation, then every build has inherent weaknesses that can be exploited by someone of the same class with a different skillset. Maybe this Wizard goes for pure mobility and damage output, but this other one sacrifices that same mobility for moves that freeze or slow the enemy. Well now we've got someone who uses easy to aim moves because they're jumping around so much, and someone who plans on keeping you in one spot and doing way more damage. Which one is better, because if their specialties (mobility and immobilizing) are so at odds, there's not a better and worse build, there's just a better and worse player.
Now that no one of our six moves is weak by the time we're level 60, the idea of "better" and "worse" builds fades. Yes, obviously there are high level moves that do high level effects and high level damage. But those moves take up high level resource and have high level cooldowns, and I can see someone who relies on these moves getting steamrolled by a player who uses enough rapidfire moves with small resource cost to basically never stop hitting you.
Reality check: there is just no such thing as a wrong way to play in this new system. I think it was you who said earlier that if everyone's perfect, then no one is. Well, that's true in this case, because if everyone can play their own style and have it be viable in the arena, then no one can inherently be better than the others.
Really, I can't take you arguments very heavily when none of us have played the game yet until you can provide arguments on your side that account for the facts that
A. everyone will be forced to use their entire skill pool (6 skills) to be effective in high level arenas.
B. no one can spam the most powerful moves in the game thanks to cooldowns and smart resource systems.
C. anyone who uses X or Y move as their staple is vulnerable to someone who utilizes in any way a move or fighting style that exploits the weakness of that staple.
why can't I make that claim? Jay him self said they were noticing a trend where people would take points out of a skill to put it it in "better" one. The arcane missle vs arcane orb comment. taking away skills hasn't changed the fact that arcane orb is better than arcane missle other wise why would people have wanted to dump all the points into it. And the new system where you are good at everything promotes you figuring out the sucky skills way to quickly
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
why can't I make that claim? Jay him self said they were noticing a trend where people would take points out of a skill to put it it in "better" one. The arcane missle vs arcane orb comment. taking away skills hasn't changed the fact that arcane orb is better than arcane missle other wise why would people have wanted to dump all the points into it. And the new system where you are good at everything promotes you figuring out the sucky skills way to quickly
Actually, the skills still has customization. Each skill actually has 7 skill ranks, and five different ways of being customized. If you haven't guessed it yet, I'm talking about runes. Skill runes are supposed to act as the next level of customization in the game. It's loose, but just as penalizing as before, since you cant control what runes drop, so it has the random element of the Diablo series added to it.
You need to build your actives and passives collectively with the idea that they will function together. It doesn't help your character if you have some melee and then some ranged runes, for example. It might work, but in later acts you'd probably struggle.
And if they go forth with the whole locking runes into skills, then that would really bring it to the next level of decision making. If you lock a level 7 rune onto a skill, then you better be prepared to stick with it.
I'm just dumbfounded by all the garbage that keeps getting posted. Why are people who haven't bothered to read blue posts (or just read a snippet of one) or watch the community vids even bothering to do it?
"Good at everything."
"No customization."
"Game is over at X."
"No replayablitiy."
Seriously, none of those things is even remotely true. It would take an astoundingly incompetent individual to read, watch, and listen to the resources this community has avalible and still draw those conclusions.
I'm just dumbfounded by all the garbage that keeps getting posted. Why are people who haven't bothered to read blue posts (or just read a snippet of one) or watch the community vids even bothering to do it?
"Good at everything."
"No customization."
"Game is over at X."
"No replayablitiy."
Seriously, none of those things is even remotely true. It would take an astoundingly incompetent individual to read, watch, and listen to the resources this community has avalible and still draw those conclusions.
really I wacthed all the videos b4 posting this topic and if you've read the topic at all you will see numerous references to them the arcane missle vs arcane orb statment, the statements on the rune attunement system. The fact that yes you will be good at everything based on the fact from before where armor and gear have always been there to "specialize"(that didn't change when they took skills away) So do some more reading and make a valid argument or better yet shove these links in our face that say "you won't be good at every skill"
I've never claimed "no customization" but less ....
I'm actually curious about the game is over at X comment I'm not sure I heard that argument be fore, where can I find that at?
"No replayability" I would have to say anyone who says no replayablity is just exaggerating for effect , but I disagree I think there will be replayabilty but not as much.
If you take the time to read the topic fully there are some actually good points that are made not the majority but there there are still some really good ones made by different people.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
OK, so everything will still be there: "but less."
How about we use a definable metric for "less," then? Are we going to use those obscene build combination numbers we saw in blue posts? Will we poll everyone who alpha tested the game and played diablo 2?
My point is, there's nothing from the evidence we have to suggest (and i've seen the "good" posts here) the game has been left bereft of a challenge or more than enough customization at launch. The system has been changed, people are reacting poorly because it's a relatively unknown method compared to the tried and true "YOU JUST LEVEL'D UP, HERE'S SOME POINTS." That's about all there is to it.
I feel, with not an ounce of uncertainty, that if customization really DOES suffer, there will be iteration on that issue long before most players ever become aware of it.
why can't I make that claim? Jay him self said they were noticing a trend where people would take points out of a skill to put it it in "better" one. The arcane missle vs arcane orb comment. taking away skills hasn't changed the fact that arcane orb is better than arcane missle other wise why would people have wanted to dump all the points into it. And the new system where you are good at everything promotes you figuring out the sucky skills way to quickly
Because that's how player psychology works. Who said that Arcane Orb was better? Maybe it's stronger, and if I'm not mistaken, I think it may do splash or something along those lines. But it is, by merit of being higher on the tree, more costly. But that doesn't matter in the head of a player. All that matters is "it's stronger, so it deserves the most points." Is that not a fair statement? I think that's what you were getting at too. But what I think Jay Wilson and his crew are getting at is that while it was indeed possible to maximize the capabilities of a move, that meant that you had committed to not using other moves. That meant that while the system "worked" and one might beat the game on all difficulties with that one beefy skill... that's not what the design team wanted. The design team wanted to make a game where you had to creatively use multiple skills together. A tree system limits the number of builds to approximately the number of skills there are available, including rune changes. That's not customization. That's "I'm a Whirlwind Barbarian, but look, I'm totally using my other skills... level 1 leap, level 1 bash, level 1 shout... etc."
In short, then, yes. Arcane Orb is better than Magic Missile. I bet we all agree. I find that likely. What skill will you use when you can't afford Arcane Orb, then? Or will you stop and wait for your energy to regenerate so you can just Orb again? That's the idea. Big moves kill big enemies or big groups. Little moves kill little enemies or little groups. You waste your resources and cooldowns, and you'll get surrounded and taken down fast, and no potions or town portals to save your hide this time.
why can't I make that claim? Jay him self said they were noticing a trend where people would take points out of a skill to put it it in "better" one. The arcane missle vs arcane orb comment. taking away skills hasn't changed the fact that arcane orb is better than arcane missle other wise why would people have wanted to dump all the points into it. And the new system where you are good at everything promotes you figuring out the sucky skills way to quickly
Actually, the skills still has customization. Each skill actually has 7 skill ranks, and five different ways of being customized. If you haven't guessed it yet, I'm talking about runes. Skill runes are supposed to act as the next level of customization in the game. It's loose, but just as penalizing as before, since you cant control what runes drop, so it has the random element of the Diablo series added to it.
You need to build your actives and passives collectively with the idea that they will function together. It doesn't help your character if you have some melee and then some ranged runes, for example. It might work, but in later acts you'd probably struggle.
And if they go forth with the whole locking runes into skills, then that would really bring it to the next level of decision making. If you lock a level 7 rune onto a skill, then you better be prepared to stick with it.
Yea your totally right in fact that has been mentioned about 12 times(exaggerated) already in this post and has been mentioned previously on the in the discussion chain to my comment you replied to but runes were there b4 skills were removed so that still means we have less customization only the aforementioned attunement system or something to that sort will give us any of that lost customization back. I'll never say no customization because that is a dumb argument to make(lol unless I get caught up in the spirit and exaggerate by accident) You do what a lot of people do and only read the like last post or two made take your time and read a lil more I think whats on pages 3- this one, best articulate my POV if you want to actually discuss this
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"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
TheSkaBoss
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How exactly is it removing customization? Customization is not achieved through the distribution of the skill points it's achieved through the actual skills you choose to use and that is something that has not changed. The skill points were just a mechanism for gauging the strength of those skills compared to your character level.
The only "customization" functionality you're losing with the new system is the ability to make your characters weaker, either on purpose or otherwise. All other functionality is still intact.
In the new system you still have to choose which skills you want, but now you don't need to worry about which skills you want weaker then others. You just use all of your skills with the same amount of relative strength (your character level).
The depth of the system isn't dependent on the allocation of the skill points. It's dependent on the active skills chosen and why. You still need to think about how each of the skills affect your build and how they will interact. That's not to mention the fact that you will have runes, gear and passive skills to deal with too.
Why is this so hard to grasp for everyone? Step back a minute and really think about how this affects the system, because, it doesn't.
Repost
Build A
You have 30 skills with 92 billion rune variants each of these 30 skills you have 60 (or what ever) points to put into them that make skills more effective as you lvl up. As u level up more and spend points the numbers of what the skills do become avaialable to you. you have barely any clue what more than 6,7, maybe even 8 skills really do when it comes to the math the numbers. You get a feel for the gear and what you need to do to ephasize the role your trying to play.
Build B
You have 30 skills with 92 billion rune variants each of theese 30 skills are available to you to switch out for you 6 active skills. As you lvl up all the ones available to you at that lvl lvl with you. the numbers are right there and it very quickly becomes apparent that the build you wanted to do is obsolete. You have 3 passive skills that you can use to customize things any maybe that will change things a bit you do maybe 2 mins of math and you realize your build isn't that bad and considering you know at this point in the game exactly what every skill does and with in the three options you can make to change it. You start playing the gear game that was available just as much in Build A.
Build A
players get to make choices about there character and make those choices develope and feel more powerful.
Build B
players get every skill then makes chioces on how they want to build there char but it becomes obvious extremely fast what the good skill choices are and everyone knows the best build(s) in 1 month becasue its all right there.
to quote a movie " When everybody is perfect....nobody is"
Your skill choices don't have to change on either build A or B but how your choices actually feel will as a direct result! Edit note and in comparison from build A to build B as the player YOU still have less control over the cards your handed less customization. But again the attunement system they have that they are trying to craft can still bring build B back to an acceptable balance and if they do do something very close to that I will no longer have a valid point.
TheSkaBoss
Ok, double posting doesn't really enhance you're argument. I read your first post.
I'm not going to argue your "feelings" about a system because I can't, it'd be silly. We all can feel a certain way about things. But just because we feel something doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
My skill choices are still going to "grow in power and develop" from level to level like they would have before, so, again, what you're really saying is you want the option for your character (or other people's characters) to suck more because they allocate their skill points wrong or differently. You like math for the sake of math, I get it.
Hey, if that's the system you want then I can't argue. But that's all you're getting from the old system compared to the new. I say focus on the stuff that really defines your character and let the system do all the stupid math for you.
TheSkaBoss
TheSkaBoss
Sheesh it is super hard to read your posts.
Ok, so I think we agree, even if you want to portray it as a conflicting idea, you're really saying you like to have the option to make sucky characters because it changes the gaming experience for you. It helps reinforce the fact that you made a good decision later, with different skills. I get that and I can respect that.
But that's completely different then saying the system limits your customization of the character. It might change the way you intend to "experience" the character, but the system is fundamentally the same.
What you really don't like is the ability to change your character so easily. And that sort of change was introduced with the idea of respecing characters much longer ago, not with the change to the skill system.
The good news is you can still mess characters up. I haven't really looked to much at the skills, mainly because they keep changing, so I don't have an example ready. But, given the number of skill combinations, you can still pair up skills that just don't work well together.
TheSkaBoss
Well most of that is also mitigated in a well balanced system where you don't have such wildly varying strengths of similar skills. Whether or not that can be achieved in D3 -we have no idea.
It's definitely a very bold move and raises cause for concern but you are correct we don't have any Idea yet and if they do go through with something like the attunement system that would definitely bring back that level of mystery you got from the skill point system that I do think is detrimental to the feel of the game.
TheSkaBoss
Yeah, your posts are a bit hard to read.
The wall of text strikes the eye for a crit.
I think I want to add a few things that I've said in other posts:
"Besides, isn't leveling up reward enough. You grow stronger, can equip better gear, unlock skill slots, unlock skills, gain the chance to get better drops, and your skills improve. In my mind it's still rewards being given, even though it's not points being thrown your way.
In Diablo 1 there wasn't even skills, you only had spells dependent on book drops, and they were the same for each class. Your power was technically randomly generated.
In Diablo 2 skills became differentiated and had purpose behind them. They were still limiting, allowing only so much progression and allowing a lot of room for mistakes. It widened the space between casual and expert play by such a huge margin that to advance you almost needed guides for help.
In Diablo 3 everything revolves around deeper customization. With skills you can fine tune your line up, and then further customize them with runes to fit your play style perfectly. You can further enchant your gear, and you can add sockets, remove gems, upgrade gems, all to your liking. The game is all about fine tuned play and I think this allow Blizzard to really focus on making Nightmare and Hell (and Inferno??) as difficult as possible. Diablo 3 feels more and more like the natural evolution of the Diablo series."
"With respeccing you will need to take the long way around. Pay over and over for trial and error. It's a lame penalization for getting your desired build. And the monetary restriction isn't even that much of a compelling decision making device, it's merely an annoying hurdle. Some people will use real world currency, but most will simply grind away to get the desired amount of gold so they can do trial and error runs to get to their desired build. If you refer to this as a challenging gameplay experience then sadly you've got it backwards.
Freeing skills removes that long way around crap. Respec just makes it difficult and annoying to get to the fun part of actually playing the game. At least now you wont need to spend cash needlessly to play around with the skills. Now you can build your character and learn his system, while still playing through the actual game."
Basically, Diablo 3 will bring you a true level of customization. Think about it. Blizzard can go crazy with difficulties, they can really push Nightmare and Hell without considering those who mucked up their skill builds. If you're struggling, you can now just swop around some skills, fitting in what you feel is lacking. This will still differentiate between casual and experienced players. Casuals will fiddle around, while skilled players will see, know and feel what works and where.
If they make all skills viable and even work well together, then you will see a lot of builds. Instead of 4 Sorcerer builds, maybe now we will get 16 Wizard builds. The great part is you can switch around between them, experiment to find new builds without a lame mechanic penalizing you and holding you back.
So against your respec statement, Let's say we were playing an action RPG about real life. I roled a nurse. I'm half way into the game I want to switch to a nuclear physicist(we will say that is the difference between a damage barb and a defensive barb if there was such a thing). I should'nt be able to do that with out consequence period, it's silly. You as the character are suppose to make choices that dictate you'r role and its effectiveness. Would you be doing the job your doing right now in life if you were good at everything? Probably not. You would test out other things and very quickly realize what the best thing was, making the way you originally wanted to build your character(aka live your life) seem silly and less fulfilling.
For this very same reason the customization is less and I mentioned it earlier in this topic. Being bad at things and not knowing things is customization and a part of anyone anwhere who is going to specialize in somethings life, and we are building a character in this world of sanctuary. That is a big part of where the word RPG came from in this action RPG game.
this is what I mentioned I posted earlier so you don't have to go digging
"Yea I think your hitting the nail on the head pretty much but in my opinion choosing what skills your bad/good at is customization and in the respec build while your building your char you don't know how awesome all the other skills until you put points into them so if it is bad it can still be/feel fun. You still make choices that make the build your trying to make, feel awesome with out having to see that well another skill at the same level is 10 times better(or whatever). And respecing its self was a choice that you'd have to spend in game currency on and you don't really know if your going to make another build that is better or worse. I mean eventually after playing the game alot your are gonna start to know. but with how it is now that's all very different. (lol yea my articulation is atrocious at times)"
TheSkaBoss
The problem with your claims that people will give up this or that move for stronger ones until everyone has the same build is that it is a flawed claim based on simplified arguments. An earlier example you used was, and I may not have these skill names right, "You can't use a Black Ice wizard in PvP, you need the damage output of a Disintegrate wizard." Well that's an overly simplified argument. Because it's not a Black Ice wizard, it's a Black Ice/Magic Missile/Shock Armor/Disintegrate/Teleport/Arcane Orb wizard. The beauty of the current system is that if there is not a one-skill fix to every battle situation, then every build has inherent weaknesses that can be exploited by someone of the same class with a different skillset. Maybe this Wizard goes for pure mobility and damage output, but this other one sacrifices that same mobility for moves that freeze or slow the enemy. Well now we've got someone who uses easy to aim moves because they're jumping around so much, and someone who plans on keeping you in one spot and doing way more damage. Which one is better, because if their specialties (mobility and immobilizing) are so at odds, there's not a better and worse build, there's just a better and worse player.
Now that no one of our six moves is weak by the time we're level 60, the idea of "better" and "worse" builds fades. Yes, obviously there are high level moves that do high level effects and high level damage. But those moves take up high level resource and have high level cooldowns, and I can see someone who relies on these moves getting steamrolled by a player who uses enough rapidfire moves with small resource cost to basically never stop hitting you.
Reality check: there is just no such thing as a wrong way to play in this new system. I think it was you who said earlier that if everyone's perfect, then no one is. Well, that's true in this case, because if everyone can play their own style and have it be viable in the arena, then no one can inherently be better than the others.
Really, I can't take you arguments very heavily when none of us have played the game yet until you can provide arguments on your side that account for the facts that
A. everyone will be forced to use their entire skill pool (6 skills) to be effective in high level arenas.
B. no one can spam the most powerful moves in the game thanks to cooldowns and smart resource systems.
C. anyone who uses X or Y move as their staple is vulnerable to someone who utilizes in any way a move or fighting style that exploits the weakness of that staple.
How do you figure that?
Each class has 20 active skills and 15 passive skills, unless you have played the game you cant comment on that.
I think there will be quite a few good builds in the game, at least as much variety like Diablo 2 if not more, i guess time will tell.... but until then all this whining is a moot point.
Do you really believe that out of 15 passive (u can pick 3) and 20 active (you can pick 6) there would only be 1-2 builds that are enjoyable?
Thats like saying that only 1 build per sorc tree was viable in Diablo 2, only 1 frost, only 1 fire and only 1 lightening.
why can't I make that claim? Jay him self said they were noticing a trend where people would take points out of a skill to put it it in "better" one. The arcane missle vs arcane orb comment. taking away skills hasn't changed the fact that arcane orb is better than arcane missle other wise why would people have wanted to dump all the points into it. And the new system where you are good at everything promotes you figuring out the sucky skills way to quickly
TheSkaBoss
Actually, the skills still has customization. Each skill actually has 7 skill ranks, and five different ways of being customized. If you haven't guessed it yet, I'm talking about runes. Skill runes are supposed to act as the next level of customization in the game. It's loose, but just as penalizing as before, since you cant control what runes drop, so it has the random element of the Diablo series added to it.
You need to build your actives and passives collectively with the idea that they will function together. It doesn't help your character if you have some melee and then some ranged runes, for example. It might work, but in later acts you'd probably struggle.
And if they go forth with the whole locking runes into skills, then that would really bring it to the next level of decision making. If you lock a level 7 rune onto a skill, then you better be prepared to stick with it.
"Good at everything."
"No customization."
"Game is over at X."
"No replayablitiy."
Seriously, none of those things is even remotely true. It would take an astoundingly incompetent individual to read, watch, and listen to the resources this community has avalible and still draw those conclusions.
really I wacthed all the videos b4 posting this topic and if you've read the topic at all you will see numerous references to them the arcane missle vs arcane orb statment, the statements on the rune attunement system. The fact that yes you will be good at everything based on the fact from before where armor and gear have always been there to "specialize"(that didn't change when they took skills away) So do some more reading and make a valid argument or better yet shove these links in our face that say "you won't be good at every skill"
I've never claimed "no customization" but less ....
I'm actually curious about the game is over at X comment I'm not sure I heard that argument be fore, where can I find that at?
"No replayability" I would have to say anyone who says no replayablity is just exaggerating for effect , but I disagree I think there will be replayabilty but not as much.
If you take the time to read the topic fully there are some actually good points that are made not the majority but there there are still some really good ones made by different people.
TheSkaBoss
How about we use a definable metric for "less," then? Are we going to use those obscene build combination numbers we saw in blue posts? Will we poll everyone who alpha tested the game and played diablo 2?
My point is, there's nothing from the evidence we have to suggest (and i've seen the "good" posts here) the game has been left bereft of a challenge or more than enough customization at launch. The system has been changed, people are reacting poorly because it's a relatively unknown method compared to the tried and true "YOU JUST LEVEL'D UP, HERE'S SOME POINTS." That's about all there is to it.
I feel, with not an ounce of uncertainty, that if customization really DOES suffer, there will be iteration on that issue long before most players ever become aware of it.
Because that's how player psychology works. Who said that Arcane Orb was better? Maybe it's stronger, and if I'm not mistaken, I think it may do splash or something along those lines. But it is, by merit of being higher on the tree, more costly. But that doesn't matter in the head of a player. All that matters is "it's stronger, so it deserves the most points." Is that not a fair statement? I think that's what you were getting at too. But what I think Jay Wilson and his crew are getting at is that while it was indeed possible to maximize the capabilities of a move, that meant that you had committed to not using other moves. That meant that while the system "worked" and one might beat the game on all difficulties with that one beefy skill... that's not what the design team wanted. The design team wanted to make a game where you had to creatively use multiple skills together. A tree system limits the number of builds to approximately the number of skills there are available, including rune changes. That's not customization. That's "I'm a Whirlwind Barbarian, but look, I'm totally using my other skills... level 1 leap, level 1 bash, level 1 shout... etc."
In short, then, yes. Arcane Orb is better than Magic Missile. I bet we all agree. I find that likely. What skill will you use when you can't afford Arcane Orb, then? Or will you stop and wait for your energy to regenerate so you can just Orb again? That's the idea. Big moves kill big enemies or big groups. Little moves kill little enemies or little groups. You waste your resources and cooldowns, and you'll get surrounded and taken down fast, and no potions or town portals to save your hide this time.
Yea your totally right in fact that has been mentioned about 12 times(exaggerated) already in this post and has been mentioned previously on the in the discussion chain to my comment you replied to but runes were there b4 skills were removed so that still means we have less customization only the aforementioned attunement system or something to that sort will give us any of that lost customization back. I'll never say no customization because that is a dumb argument to make(lol unless I get caught up in the spirit and exaggerate by accident) You do what a lot of people do and only read the like last post or two made take your time and read a lil more I think whats on pages 3- this one, best articulate my POV if you want to actually discuss this
TheSkaBoss