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    posted a message on DiabloCast: Episode XXV
    I'll second that co-op and commentary is the way to go.
    Posted in: News & Announcements
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    posted a message on Skill System Discussion
    Quote from Seluhir

    Well flaw, it's simple. The more you use any magic, your total magical power grows. Thus, since you know HOW to cast fireball, since you now have more overall magic, your ability to put more power into fireball grows as well.


    Think of it not as a person who has 5 reservoirs(one for fire one for ice one for arcane one for lightning one for force) but rather as a person who has one reservoir: Arcane Power. And that reservoir can be channeled into any form of magic they need as long as they know how to perform that magic. So as that reservoir grows, so does the power of each spell cast from it.

    Same goes for a barbarian... if he uses Bash 10000 times his muscles are gonna grow. So when he goes to throw that spear, his muscles are gonna be able to throw it that much harder.

    Or a monk, whose power comes from his attunement with his god, if my memory serves me correctly. The more he achieves that level of attunement, the more all of his powers will grow, thus explaining why even the abilities he doesn't use become more potent.

    etc.

    Yea I like what your saying there youre speaking in terms of synergy. But I feel it is still unreasonable to think that all skills are mastered to max possible currently. I mean a barbarian grows his muscles by using bash so he can put more more power behind his weapon throw. It doesnt mean he can aim his throws well. A mage uses fire balls and arcane missiles and learns to use more power into their spells doesn't mean they've masterd magic enough to keep a prolonged casing of diamonds around they're body. I'm just saying it would be cool if they added a system that tracked use of skills maybe they could put synergies in that as well like using fire ball also helps build some skill to skills that are related I.E. meteor, but I think synergies in that would cause some other logic issues with the rune system saying how much that can change skills.

    So do you think its a horrible Idea or were you just trying to help me expand my imagination lol
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill System Discussion
    Yea im not gonna lie I feel that giving us all the skills was not the best answer for the problem in skill trees, but since then I've dipped my head in acceptance. I will say that after watching all of these videos it still doesn't feel right. I just can't fathom how these characters we are rolling just level every single skill up as they kill. I mean how in the world am I getting any better with fireballs if I am shooting force blast and electric beams at everything. This said I really have gotten the over the fact that we are gonna get every skill.

    Skills have still lost a level of immersion as they currently are and I'll get over it if they don't change anything on them...maybe lol ... but I was thinking of a way that they could bring that lil bit of immersion back Tell me what you guys think.

    What if we have to use the skills to level them up? So say I am a lvl 1 wizard and I start with arcane missles and frost nova. So I am using the skills. and some system similar to like the weapon skills and fishing skill in the game that shall not be mentioned has keeps track of all of that so when you level up to lvl 2 if you had enough points or whatever system would track that info the skills level up with you like they already do. Now at level 3 I have level Ice armor unlocked but only currently do I have 2 active skills. So I test it out and I decide I am going to use ice armor and arcane missles and for the entire level I never use Ice Nova. So when I hit level three my ice armor goes up one because I used it, and my arcane missles go up because I used them, but my nova stays level 2 until I use it enough to catch it up. Now this will be even greater when you have all 6 active skills open and will bring a greater level of immersion back to the skill game with out them having to scrap the current system completely.

    Hopefully I worded that well enough what do you guys think?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from rexbo88

    I don't understand why people say that fact that you don't feel the need to look at a guide good is a positive attribute. I feel like Jay Wilson uses this as a cop-out instead of realizing that maybe it's easy to use because its so over simplified you cannot make a mistake.

    I'm pretty sure you can still make mistakes such as use the wrong skills in the wrong combinations. As I went over with flawk, theres more to choice than clicking a button in a skill tree once every level.

    Quote from rexbo88

    I also still think that the reason they made these changes was a quick way out of balancing, instead of saying everyone is taking arcane orb over arcane missle maybe we should make arcane missle more attractive, they just say "OK lets just make it easier to respec to skip this ability".

    I'm not sure if this new system will be good as I havent played the game, but it sounds like it will make the game really shallow when making each character.

    I think you completely missed what Jay meant, since you're paraphrasing his story. He said if you were a newb and stuck points in your t1 skill, you used it because it was marginally better than whatever new skill you got at 6 or whatever. He wasn't saying "we made this one spell OP, gotta remove skills for it lolol!" The commentary was about player choice. How you technically only got to "choose" whatever had skill points invested in it and everything else was hardly worth looking at. Whereas if you were "smart" (d2) and hoarded skills for good things later on, you used whatever until you got to uber-spell and then you reverted to 2-button faceroll.

    pretty sure you can still use the wrong skill lol whats the consequence of using the wrong skill none ...o wait sorry I meant go back to town and switch out. And as I went over with you having the option to be bad at something is choice and clicking a skill tree gave you the option to be bad at something and you had to live with it and again In action rpg any rpg you should be roleing a char an individual who makes choices with consequences. But truth is we fight tooth and nail about this because you really don't care if it looses that rpg element. (my side as always coming from if they don't add some system to add the mystery back to build options)
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from proletaria

    I feel like that was a great opportunity to lock this thread. =/

    It truly was but then again you never read the whole thread anyway.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from flawkstawker45

    Quote from theSkaBoss

    In the end, I just think that Blizzard wants each player to be defined by the player rather than the tree. Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds. Or a Fire Sorc that likes to freeze stuff before he does his heavy-hitting fire moves. And frankly, in a group of 100, there might be 20 or so players who like to freeze stuff and then hurl fireballs too. But that's better than the alternative, where maybe 50 players are all Fire Sorcs, and that's the end of that story, you know what I mean? I think there are valid concerns out there about how this is all going to play out, but I don't see how anyone could disagree that the new system is Blizzard's gift to people who want to play the game and be different from everybody else if they so choose.

    I need to start making a list of things we agree on so I know what we're discussing. ;)
    LOL that statement is the best statement I've ever read lol. You just made my night.

    Can I take a quote from that for my signature?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from theSkaBoss

    In the end, I just think that Blizzard wants each player to be defined by the player rather than the tree. Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds. Or a Fire Sorc that likes to freeze stuff before he does his heavy-hitting fire moves. And frankly, in a group of 100, there might be 20 or so players who like to freeze stuff and then hurl fireballs too. But that's better than the alternative, where maybe 50 players are all Fire Sorcs, and that's the end of that story, you know what I mean? I think there are valid concerns out there about how this is all going to play out, but I don't see how anyone could disagree that the new system is Blizzard's gift to people who want to play the game and be different from everybody else if they so choose.

    I need to start making a list of things we agree on so I know what we're discussing. ;)
    LOL that statement is the best statement I've ever read lol. You just made my night.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from theSkaBoss

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    sorry ska let me back up and read what I missed

    Maybe it'd help if I got me an avatar. lol

    O Ska I have one reply to you on page five maybe you missed it. Was there a different comment I missed?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Prep the coffee maker agian lol that's pretty good but you are saying "The semanitcs don't mean anything when you're talking about an unknown or unclassified objective. If I call a UFO an "alien space craft," and you call it "Herr Kringle's Sleigh," we have a semantic diffirence of opinion, neither of which defines the object as we haven't actually identified it yet." and I am saying that Diablo 3 is defined as Action RPG so can you fill me in on what I'm missing?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    Yea I can see alot of what your saying there. But the last little bit bothers me if you are playing a fire sorc frost sorc or whatever you should be playing the entire game as one of those that's what it means to play a RPG. pick a role and live with. This is becoming less of an action rpg and more of an action strategy with some rpg elements

    I think you're forgetting that the game is balanced around these realities. ie. when more skills are avalible to you, then you can be expected to use more of them. I think you're stuck on the idea we're going to get D2 with a facelift. For all we know the monsters will be much more of a challenge and that face-rolling old-school 2-button (so many hypenated words) style of gameplay is out.

    As for the game becoming more of an X than a Y; honestly, do you really care about semantics? If you're that bent out of shape by not having a skill tree, by all means just pretend you have one. It'll make the game much more challenging i'm sure. The bottom line here is that the game is going to be more enjoyable, have more variety, and still feature as much customization as you want; and that's party due to the skill change.

    (would /thread be too pretentious here?)
    I don't know how to use the selcta quote thing but the quote is in here first sentence from u in last quote
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from theSkaBoss

    You responded to, like, everyone but me. :(

    But anyway, it's not like you had a skill tree in D2, so I don't see what the deal is. Yeah, it looked like a tree, was called a tree, and in many ways, even worked like a tree. But the entire tree system of D2 ended up making people skill dump in some high-level skill. What kind of tree is that? It's not a tree, it's more like Skill Balloon. I follow this tiny, tiny thread of no major importance up and up and up... until I get to the top where the big round object is. It's where the fun is. It's what will carry me. So more or less, if you think about it, you're mourning the loss of Skill Balloons. D3 has more potential to behave like a tree than D2 ever really had, because if I pull all of my six skills out of a single tree, is that not playing with a skill tree? And am I not utilizing the skills in such a way that it really feels like I'm armed with skills from a tree?

    But then, of course, as you are noting, we don't have to pull from one tree. But I like that, because I feel like that will immerse me in the world better. I find it easy to believe that there will be a Wizard out there who dabbles in all fields of magic. It's realistic, and it strengthens the lore a bit, don't you think?

    sorry ska let me back up and read what I missed
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    The semantics you refer mean a change in the style of game we are playing so yes I think atleast in this instance I will let "semantics" effect how I feel about this.

    Now in terms of realizing the realities of what the games was balanced around. You need to realize that up until this announcement was made, this games was balanced around a system that used skill points in a similar way to D2 and many many many many many many other RPGS.

    Pretentious yes but only cause your getting as tired of this convo as I am lol

    The semanitcs don't mean anything when you're talking about an unknown or unclassified objective. If I call a UFO an "alien space craft," and you call it "Herr Kringle's Sleigh," we have a semantic diffirence of opinion, neither of which defines the object as we haven't actually identified it yet. We can see some videos of gameplay, some screenshots, and a rought list of abilities, but we know almost nothing about how the game actually plays as it relates to the skills avalible.

    Thusly, when we are talking about the "reality" of diablo2, sure, we can speak in definite terms and with verfiable experience. However; when we are speaking of D3 we have to be careful NOT to do this.

    You need to realize that the history of skillpoint systems and even it's previous iteration in D3's alpha... is totally meaningless to us. For all intents and purposes, we absolutely have to take the devs at their word on this. They've done a fine job for us before, so I think the only thing we CAN safely infer is that they're making an intelligent decision this time around too.

    So now that i've covered why there is still the potential for ample (perhaps more than ever?) customization, refuted the proposition that the game is totally dependant on the (removed) skill system, and put the semanitcs to rest... what is next?

    (no /thread, I swear.. oops)

    ummm so Diablo isn't identified as an Action RPG good to know I didn't realize that.

    So taking away a choice to be bad at skills doesn't take away customization hmmmm good to know.

    You have the same skill choices as b4 except now you can't be bad at any of them your right when your roleing a character in any rpg game deciding what skills your bad at is not part of that customization

    O and for the record your the one the brought up the fact that how important the way the build has been created thus far is.

    But in all seriousness you are right to put your faith in the devs I know I'm going to and if you had read the topic discussion before the last page or whatever you had decided to skip ahead to you would have seen me say that it is just a cause for concern mutiple times.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from Lemmingrad

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    Quote from KargosofUldum

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    So what your saying is you don't want to role a character in an action RPG game? Choice is suppose to have consequence so yeah you'd rather be like o crap something I can't defeat easily I know back to town switch. At least that's how it sounds in your fire sorc story. Every one came across moments like that you didn't quit playing you continued on and in the next area you flames were destroying everything and the game was still fun. And the illusion you dismiss so lightly is what makes skills feel powerful even if they are not and that is crucial.

    Now in terms of internet you misunderstood completely. I'm saying in the skill system there was only 2 ways to know how awesome skills were. You either put points in them and found out or you looked it up online. Now they are all just given to you. Im not a big fan of using walkthroughs or looking online but now I can just see it its right there

    You are right your not going to know at face value about the skills and synergies but you'll know it 30 seconds later(exaggeration) after you swapped em out real quick to try.

    O the asterik thing was because I know that word can't be correct.

    Maybe the solution lay somewhere between our 2 opinions.

    Your first sentence is inane. All the choices one will make in Diablo 3 will have consequences, many of which have already been covered in this thread and more that we'll discover when we play. If one comes across immunities in the harder difficulties we'll have the option of switching skills to fit the demand of the situation instead of having to resort to a skill that is lacking in every aspect (i.e. the low level frost spell). Having to do that is no fun and very annoying, frustrating, and takes away from gameplay.

    Do you like being able to see it all right there? I can't tell, context is lost to me.

    The word you're looking for is disincentive. Close!

    First sentence is insane? It's a RPG your suppose to role a character and there are suppose to be draw backs to your characters choices are you saying that the draw back of awww man I have to go back to town to switch skills is enough consequence? I never once was so annoyed by immunities that I thought Diablo 2 was dumb I loved that game( and I built some bad sorcs).


    The solution is definitely not just giving the character everything maybe give them more so you don't run into issues where people are so annoyed because their build can't handle an immunity but don't give everything. Or as I stated b4 if you have to give them everything give them a system that makes it harder to realize which skills are better ok worst and what not so the level of illusion that all the skills are awesome can be maintained thus giving us the incentive to stick to the build we are hopeing to make.

    If you would though please inlighten me to the consequences you speak of, maybe I'm just not seeing what you mean in terms of that.


    They said inane, not insane.

    lol woops thanks man
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    Yea I can see alot of what your saying there. But the last little bit bothers me if you are playing a fire sorc frost sorc or whatever you should be playing the entire game as one of those that's what it means to play a RPG. pick a role and live with. This is becoming less of an action rpg and more of an action strategy with some rpg elements

    I think you're forgetting that the game is balanced around these realities. ie. when more skills are avalible to you, then you can be expected to use more of them. I think you're stuck on the idea we're going to get D2 with a facelift. For all we know the monsters will be much more of a challenge and that face-rolling old-school 2-button (so many hypenated words) style of gameplay is out.

    As for the game becoming more of an X than a Y; honestly, do you really care about semantics? If you're that bent out of shape by not having a skill tree, by all means just pretend you have one. It'll make the game much more challenging i'm sure. The bottom line here is that the game is going to be more enjoyable, have more variety, and still feature as much customization as you want; and that's party due to the skill change.

    (would /thread be too pretentious here?)

    The semantics you refer mean a change in the style of game we are playing so yes I think atleast in this instance I will let "semantics" effect how I feel about this.

    Now in terms of realizing the realities of what the games was balanced around. You need to realize that up until this announcement was made, this games was balanced around a system that used skill points in a similar way to D2 and many many many many many many other RPGS.

    Pretentious yes but only cause your getting as tired of this convo as I am lol
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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    posted a message on Skill customization in ruin?
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from flawkstawker45

    So what your saying is you don't want to role a character in an action RPG game? Choice is suppose to have consequence so yeah you'd rather be like o crap something I can't defeat easily I know back to town switch. At least that's how it sounds in your fire sorc story. Every one came across moments like that you didn't quit playing you continued on and in the next area you flames were destroying everything and the game was still fun. And the illusion you dismiss so lightly is what makes skills feel powerful even if they are not and that is crucial.

    Now in terms of internet you misunderstood completely. I'm saying in the skill system there was only 2 ways to know how awesome skills were. You either put points in them and found out or you looked it up online. Now they are all just given to you. Im not a big fan of using walkthroughs or looking online but now I can just see it its right there

    You are right your not going to know at face value about the skills and synergies but you'll know it 30 seconds later(exaggeration) after you swapped em out real quick to try.

    O the asterik thing was because I know that word can't be correct.

    Maybe the solution lay somewhere between our 2 opinions.

    I think the implication is, the old system required pre-meditated choice (read the guide: make the character to fit it) and the new system requires de-facto choices (read the walk-through: use the appropriate skills). As I said, seeking a second opinion on what to do is a universal. We can't simply isolate that as a "cheat," prone only to one scenario.

    Furthermore, how awsome something is: that's variable. Unless you comb over every monster and pre-select your optimal choices ahead of time, you have a lot of customization in terms of how you deal with X as opposed to Y with your skills. You no longer have to use fireball and god-help you if your monster doesn't take damage from it. You peruse the skill choices you've got and see what works. Trial and error if you didn't take the "~what do," rout and simply google it.

    The moral of the story is: customization is not being harmed in the making of this new system. There are still a multitude of optimal, suboptimal, and downright stupid ways to go about slaying X and Y. Plenty of opportunity to play as though you were a firesorc, frostsorc, or any other vanilla-icecream variant you like. And plenty more opportunity to go all neopolitan on their asses and use whatever skill combos you want.

    Yea I can see alot of what your saying there. But the last little bit bothers me if you are playing a fire sorc frost sorc or whatever you should be playing the entire game as one of those that's what it means to play a RPG. pick a role and live with. This is becoming less of an action rpg and more of an action strategy with some rpg elements
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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