I'm not sure if anybody knows this yet or not but has there been any talks of how loot tables are going to work in Diablo 3?
I mainly ask because I'm wondering if D3 is going to be completely random just like D2 where any boss (within same difficulty) could almost drop the same items.. Or could each boss has a very specific loot?
I would love to see each mini-boss & final act bosses all have specific items they could drop. I feel this would avoid the D3 end game to be the equilivant of D2 "baal runs". The worst part of D2 at the moment (for me) is there really isn't any incentive to running act 1-4 other than getting rushed through and then doing baal runs from there.
Maybe in Diablo 3 only the first act boss drops that end game sword you need and maybe he has a 1% change to drop it.. Maybe only act 5 normal enemies can drop a specific set ring and act 2 mini bosses are the only ones who drop this helm.
I would prefer to see a loot table structured around encouraging players to run each act over and over.. increasing the reply value of the game and each act.
I would even love to see it taken further. Maybe if you cleared the entire area before a mini boss your chances of good loot from the mini-boss would go up. Maybe if you clear the entire act + mini bosses then the % chance to get a legendary item from the end act boss goes up! That way there is more incentive to clear content and just not skip to boss fight after boss fight.
Do you think the d2 loot system was successful? Would you prefer to have specific loot tables so you knew where to farm? Would you want incentives to clear content or do you like the d2 way of teleporting to bosses, maybe getting blue item drops or maybe getting this awesome unique item?
There are no set loot tables in Diablo 3. Although you said otherwise, it would actually encourage players to do boss runs because they know what they are trying to get from that boss. The only thing it would do is cut down the number of times you do boss runs because with a set loot table, you only have run it so many times until you get what you need from that boss.
I do think boss runs is a horrible mechanic. I like the idea that the more content you clear before you kill the boss, the better tue loot drop is. However, they don't need set loot tables for this. Just an increase in chance of rare,set, or legendary items will work within the pure randomness.
I also hope that this endgame they have planned gets rid of most temptation to boss run in the first place.
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Frankly, I miss the magic I had in some old games where when you wanted a certain kind of items, you would go to certain areas to get it. Even if say, going to Act 2 in some of the random dungeons, it had more chance to drop certain items. So if you wanted one of them, going there would be a good idea.
I have kind of a double feeling about boss runs. On the one hand the endless mephi runs I've done over the years could have been spent in a better way (as described by previous posters). On the other hand though, it was nice to have a place where you could quickly get some rare or unique items. For example, whenever I played through the game with a fresh character without any exterior help, I'd redo andariel a couple of times just to get some rare items (maybe a poleaxe for act2 merc..).
I actually prefer the item system from Titan Quest though. All monsters just drop whatever they are weilding. Sometimes you'd actually see a monster holding a unique looking weapon, and if you killed him, he'd drop it. So if you were looking for a good bow, you'd have to kill a lot of ranged enemies (which makes sense). Bosses on the other hand, spanwed an orb upon dying, which could contain any kind of items (with increased chances for uniques of course). So that's what I'd prefer: monsters drop whatever items make sense for them to drop, while bosses drop whatever treasures they have been hoarding. After the first time you kill a certain boss, his drop chances should decrease significantly to discourage endless runs, but also to still allow for a couple of extra runs if the player wishes to do so. If the game is well designed, we won't feel the need to do boss runs though, there should be more interesting things to do.
You make a good point about having to do the same MF run countless times, and a look table would kinda fix that... But I feel that a loot table is bandaid to that problem. The real problem is giving specific bosses a much greater loot drop then others. I like completely random drops because that will increase trading/economy, but I will find it boring if the only person you should kill to find items to trade is Baal.
I played classic mostly. My MF runs always included High Counsil -> Mephisto -> Diablo which is a bit nicer than Baal -> Baal -> Baal but that could still be improved.
I don't like the idea of heavily structured loot tables. That creates problems where different classes prefer to kill different monsters. That means it becomes hard for a party to agree on a dungeon or region to kill monsters in. Everyone wants to go to a different place.
I think there's two things Blizzard can do:
1. Lower the boss drop rate after the first kill. - The first time players kill a boss, let them get an awesome item. Then change the drop rate to be about the same as any other monster. Players will be okay with magic find and monster killing pretty much anywhere now. Blizzard originally planned this in one of the D2 patches but ended up scrapping it.
2. Remove bosses after your character kills them. - Bosses never reappear in your game after you have killed it. There is no way to farm it anymore. So of course everyone will just want to kill whatever monsters are around and not farm bosses. I think this is the most likely option for Blizzard just because it makes sense from a lore side. When your character killed Baal in D2 why is he back in your next game. He's dead. He shouldn't be there.
I don't like the idea of heavily structured loot tables. That creates problems where different classes prefer to kill different monsters. That means it becomes hard for a party to agree on a dungeon or region to kill monsters in. Everyone wants to go to a different place.
That's why they would have to make the loot tables diverse. One boss might drop 50 unique things, 10 favoring each class. + random rares + random magic with small % chance of dropping. That way maybe you have to run one boss 30 times before you get your drop.. or it could take 100 times.. but at least you know where you have a chance at getting it.
Another example.. Creatures in act 3 might have a chance to drop X number of uniques that will only ever drop from creatures in act 3, not from anything else. Now you have to run act 3 over and over if you want to find it... but you know where to find it.
If loot was organized correctly there would most likely always be enough items for each class in each act/boss run... so groups would be plentiful! I would bet that if the loot was spread out over all 5 acts you might just have full games running the full difficulty and not just baal -> baal -> baal -> type runs.
I don't see why a loot table is so much better than just having a guaranteed legendary drop or something of the sort. You'd still have the random loot of Diablo, while guaranteeing that the boss run is worth your while, even if it isn't the legendary you were looking for. Obviously that wouldn't work as well if there were only a few legendaries, but that probably won't be the case and even if it is they could just have legendaries/magic items be favored for a boss. It would basically be a broader, random, and ultimately more Diablo appropriate loot table.
The last thing I recall was that they were looking into ways to discourage repetitive farming. To me that implies they're trying something more radical than just boss loot tables.
Compared to D2 I do think they need to either deflate boss drops vs normal drops, or else make it substantially harder to "run" to bosses. Teleporting past all the lesser mobs just to kill the boss gets kinda dumb.
I dislike set loot tables like WoW. It made it really predictable of which bosses gave you what, which made runs quite boring. And if I knew I didn't need anything, I wouldn't try very hard. However, a mixed system could work very well in Diablo III, in my opinion. I think there are two types of mixed drop systems that could work pretty well; I am calling one of them "related drop system" and "small loot tables system".
A related drop system(has no loot tables) would just simply convert dropped items depending on what enemy dropped it at a certain percentage chance. This would make a little more sense in prolonged monster killing, but still give that "HEY! I found this heavy armor off this ghost" moment that D2 players are expecting. For instance, if you would normally get 5 light armor pieces and 5 heavy armor pieces from an enemy, then you would instead get something like 6 L.armor and 4 H.armor instead. Enemies and bosses clad in heavy armor are more likely to drop heavier types of armor and weapons, and talismans? Enemies and bosses in robes or are magic based may tend to drop magic weapons, light armors, and accessories?
A small loot tables system would basically use a purely random drop system based on monster item levels or w/e they plan to use, but give special loot tables to certain bosses, creature types, or other groupings of monsters. This can be especially useful(and I personally believe it's how D2 worked), where set items drop from certain creatures(think Cow King set). For example, if they had a unique amulet named "The Skeleton Key", it would have a slightly higher chance to drop off skeleton-like enemies than normal enemies of the same drop level, but could still drop from anything.
I played WoW since vanilla up until like 4/12 in Cata. I completely agree with you about how the itemized loot can get extremely frustrating when a boss that takes 15 minutes to kill only has a loot table of like 5 items... and you can only kill that boss once a week...
As long as they make the loot tables in Diablo 3 much bigger then it would work wonders. If act 1 boss had 50 items he could drop (all with end game potential) then chances are you will need to kill him a lot more than ONE time.
I am all for a structured loot table because I like to know where to farm for gear I want for my build.. rather than having some 0.00035% chance it could drop anywhere in the world and I may never see it for months if Ever.. and the only way I may ever see it is through trades.
I am all for a structured loot table because I like to know where to farm for gear I want for my build.. rather than having some 0.00035% chance it could drop anywhere in the world and I may never see it for months if Ever.. and the only way I may ever see it is through trades.
This is precisely what I like about Diablo games, that even in your entire playing time, there are some items you may never find yourself. It's what makes the legendary (unique) items so good. WoW does the same by having some items only available to high end raiders. I don't want to get to level 60 in Diablo 3, farm items for a week, and be done with my character. I want it to be a long term thing.
However they decide to do it, I just hope there is an incentive to kill all the bosses and clear all areas after you hit 60. I really hope that there isn't one boss with a much greater % chance to drop the "good stuff" and we are reduced to endless single boss runs.
I do think boss runs is a horrible mechanic. I like the idea that the more content you clear before you kill the boss, the better tue loot drop is. However, they don't need set loot tables for this. Just an increase in chance of rare,set, or legendary items will work within the pure randomness.
I also hope that this endgame they have planned gets rid of most temptation to boss run in the first place.
I totally agree with you on this one. Clearing all the minions before the boss to increase the chances for dropping rare, set or legendary items is really the way to do it on all Acts of the game on all level of difficulties. :thumbsup:
I mainly ask because I'm wondering if D3 is going to be completely random just like D2 where any boss (within same difficulty) could almost drop the same items.. Or could each boss has a very specific loot?
I would love to see each mini-boss & final act bosses all have specific items they could drop. I feel this would avoid the D3 end game to be the equilivant of D2 "baal runs". The worst part of D2 at the moment (for me) is there really isn't any incentive to running act 1-4 other than getting rushed through and then doing baal runs from there.
Maybe in Diablo 3 only the first act boss drops that end game sword you need and maybe he has a 1% change to drop it.. Maybe only act 5 normal enemies can drop a specific set ring and act 2 mini bosses are the only ones who drop this helm.
I would prefer to see a loot table structured around encouraging players to run each act over and over.. increasing the reply value of the game and each act.
I would even love to see it taken further. Maybe if you cleared the entire area before a mini boss your chances of good loot from the mini-boss would go up. Maybe if you clear the entire act + mini bosses then the % chance to get a legendary item from the end act boss goes up! That way there is more incentive to clear content and just not skip to boss fight after boss fight.
Do you think the d2 loot system was successful? Would you prefer to have specific loot tables so you knew where to farm? Would you want incentives to clear content or do you like the d2 way of teleporting to bosses, maybe getting blue item drops or maybe getting this awesome unique item?
Share your thoughs.
I do think boss runs is a horrible mechanic. I like the idea that the more content you clear before you kill the boss, the better tue loot drop is. However, they don't need set loot tables for this. Just an increase in chance of rare,set, or legendary items will work within the pure randomness.
I also hope that this endgame they have planned gets rid of most temptation to boss run in the first place.
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Frankly, I miss the magic I had in some old games where when you wanted a certain kind of items, you would go to certain areas to get it. Even if say, going to Act 2 in some of the random dungeons, it had more chance to drop certain items. So if you wanted one of them, going there would be a good idea.
I actually prefer the item system from Titan Quest though. All monsters just drop whatever they are weilding. Sometimes you'd actually see a monster holding a unique looking weapon, and if you killed him, he'd drop it. So if you were looking for a good bow, you'd have to kill a lot of ranged enemies (which makes sense). Bosses on the other hand, spanwed an orb upon dying, which could contain any kind of items (with increased chances for uniques of course). So that's what I'd prefer: monsters drop whatever items make sense for them to drop, while bosses drop whatever treasures they have been hoarding. After the first time you kill a certain boss, his drop chances should decrease significantly to discourage endless runs, but also to still allow for a couple of extra runs if the player wishes to do so. If the game is well designed, we won't feel the need to do boss runs though, there should be more interesting things to do.
I played classic mostly. My MF runs always included High Counsil -> Mephisto -> Diablo which is a bit nicer than Baal -> Baal -> Baal but that could still be improved.
I think there's two things Blizzard can do:
1. Lower the boss drop rate after the first kill. - The first time players kill a boss, let them get an awesome item. Then change the drop rate to be about the same as any other monster. Players will be okay with magic find and monster killing pretty much anywhere now. Blizzard originally planned this in one of the D2 patches but ended up scrapping it.
2. Remove bosses after your character kills them. - Bosses never reappear in your game after you have killed it. There is no way to farm it anymore. So of course everyone will just want to kill whatever monsters are around and not farm bosses. I think this is the most likely option for Blizzard just because it makes sense from a lore side. When your character killed Baal in D2 why is he back in your next game. He's dead. He shouldn't be there.
That's why they would have to make the loot tables diverse. One boss might drop 50 unique things, 10 favoring each class. + random rares + random magic with small % chance of dropping. That way maybe you have to run one boss 30 times before you get your drop.. or it could take 100 times.. but at least you know where you have a chance at getting it.
Another example.. Creatures in act 3 might have a chance to drop X number of uniques that will only ever drop from creatures in act 3, not from anything else. Now you have to run act 3 over and over if you want to find it... but you know where to find it.
If loot was organized correctly there would most likely always be enough items for each class in each act/boss run... so groups would be plentiful! I would bet that if the loot was spread out over all 5 acts you might just have full games running the full difficulty and not just baal -> baal -> baal -> type runs.
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Compared to D2 I do think they need to either deflate boss drops vs normal drops, or else make it substantially harder to "run" to bosses. Teleporting past all the lesser mobs just to kill the boss gets kinda dumb.
A related drop system(has no loot tables) would just simply convert dropped items depending on what enemy dropped it at a certain percentage chance. This would make a little more sense in prolonged monster killing, but still give that "HEY! I found this heavy armor off this ghost" moment that D2 players are expecting. For instance, if you would normally get 5 light armor pieces and 5 heavy armor pieces from an enemy, then you would instead get something like 6 L.armor and 4 H.armor instead. Enemies and bosses clad in heavy armor are more likely to drop heavier types of armor and weapons, and talismans? Enemies and bosses in robes or are magic based may tend to drop magic weapons, light armors, and accessories?
A small loot tables system would basically use a purely random drop system based on monster item levels or w/e they plan to use, but give special loot tables to certain bosses, creature types, or other groupings of monsters. This can be especially useful(and I personally believe it's how D2 worked), where set items drop from certain creatures(think Cow King set). For example, if they had a unique amulet named "The Skeleton Key", it would have a slightly higher chance to drop off skeleton-like enemies than normal enemies of the same drop level, but could still drop from anything.
As long as they make the loot tables in Diablo 3 much bigger then it would work wonders. If act 1 boss had 50 items he could drop (all with end game potential) then chances are you will need to kill him a lot more than ONE time.
I am all for a structured loot table because I like to know where to farm for gear I want for my build.. rather than having some 0.00035% chance it could drop anywhere in the world and I may never see it for months if Ever.. and the only way I may ever see it is through trades.
This is precisely what I like about Diablo games, that even in your entire playing time, there are some items you may never find yourself. It's what makes the legendary (unique) items so good. WoW does the same by having some items only available to high end raiders. I don't want to get to level 60 in Diablo 3, farm items for a week, and be done with my character. I want it to be a long term thing.
I totally agree with you on this one. Clearing all the minions before the boss to increase the chances for dropping rare, set or legendary items is really the way to do it on all Acts of the game on all level of difficulties. :thumbsup:
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