TLDR: Currently, there's no cap on Core Stats in Paragon 2.0. Looking to get peoples' thoughts on how viable it might be, as a slow, long-term process, for a player to utilize Paragon Points as their main source of main stat and Vitality, moving away from having main stat and Vitality on their gear, and upgrading to gear with more class-specific affixes instead, at a high enough level.
I encourage you to read the whole piece, as there might be insight here that can add to the discussion, :-)
So, I'm no stat-hound or theorycrafter by any stretch...some might know that already...however, I was thinking about Paragon 2.0, did some rudimentary math, and I had a thought I'd like to share...
Currently, in Paragon "1.0," after quite a few hours of lengthy grinding, all each character can hope to gain for reaching Paragon Level 100 (on an individual character) is a total maximum of 300 extra main stat, 200 extra Vitality, and 100 to each minor stat. 700 extra stat points, which I believe (if my math is correct) equates to about Paragon Level 560 in 2.0 in order to get the same Core Stat benefit as Paragon Level 100 in "1.0" the earliest, as Paragon Points are gained in order from Level 1, going from Core Stats, Offense Stats, Defense Stats, and Adventure Stats at Level 4, and so on until Level 800.
At 800 Paragon 2.0 Levels, an account has done two things: 1) It has maxed all of the stats found in ALL their characters' Offense, Defense and Adventure tabs. 2) By completing the other tabs fully, every Paragon 2.0 level a player gains after that milestone will continue granting them points in their Core Stat tab, pretty much indefinitely (unless the devs change that between now and launch).
If we divide that up...the first 800 Paragon 2.0 Levels will grant 200 points to each of the four tabs, and if a player takes the 200 Core Stat points and dumps them all into a character's main stat, at Paragon Level 800, they will have gained 1000 additional main stat for that character.
In other words, AFTER Paragon Level 800 is achieved, every subsequent 200 Paragon 2.0 Levels can equate to another 1000 main stat. By Paragon Level 1000, a character can have 2000 extra main stat. Paragon 1200, 3000 mainstat. Paragon 1400, 4000 mainstat. And so on.
Okay, math over....speculation begins here....
Thus, I came up with this theory...while dumping Core Tab Paragon Points into main stat seems like a really shallow, obvious and/or "required" choice, it COULD prove to be an effective, long-term way for a dedicated player to move AWAY from needing main stat and/or Vitality on gear, depending on if they want to build defensive characters with more Life, characters that are balanced between Life and Damage, or more damage-based characters.
Don't believe me? Think about it.
Right now, we need main stat on literally every piece we wear, in an effort to squeeze every point of damage we can out of our output, mainly because aside from skill buffs, passives, gear, and the minute stat increases we get for Paragon levels now, there isn't any other reliable way of increasing damage, no matter how much time we invest. You pick up a Mighty Weapon with no Strength, a Cloak with no Dexterity, a Mojo or Voodoo Mask with no Intelligence, etc., it's deemed instant vendor trash, sometimes not even picked up. If it has main stat with no Vitality, it MIGHT be viable if it has a clump of other popular trifecta stat boosts. But it'll still be looked at as slightly not-as-good if it doesn't have Vitality.
However, with Paragon Levels soon to have NO cap on how high one can increase their Core Stats, a player could effectively gain enough Core Stats from Paragon Points to cause them to need Core Stats on gear far less.
Think of it this way...ALL the things found in the Paragon Point tabs can be found on gear. BUT...not every affix found on gear is in the Paragon Point tabs:
Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Vitality, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Attack Speed, overall Cooldown Reduction, %Life, Resist All, %Armor, Dodge Chance, Move Speed, Max Resource/Resource (Re)gen, Magic Find, Pickup Radius...those are ALL found on gear.
But Life Per Resource Spent? +Skill Damage? Reduced resource cost? Those are NOT found in the Paragon Point tabs. Those are increases and upgrades that can only be acquired through gear and skills alone.
This being the case, it leads me to believe Paragon 2.0 could end up making gear without any main stat on it completely viable at high enough Paragon Levels. Yes, there would be a reduction in the exact damage number or damage multiplier resulting from a lower main stat, but being free from NEEDING main stat on gear leaves a player open to find good gear with skill-adjusting affixes...while gaining more main stat and Vitality via subsequent Paragon Levels.
Sure, you can just stack additional main stat for better damage, and that will still likely be the easiest thing to do. But given the tradeoff of better skill utility...I may go with the latter, and grind for more main stat. It would certainly make gear options a lot more interesting.
Like I've said, it seems ultimately like a long-term goal, at best. Maybe a slow and steady replacement. You could either do it on your way to 800, by working in Point upgrades to Crit Damage and Attack Speed to make up for the lack of main stat you're losing on your gear, or you could hit a high enough Paragon level, and respec when you find the right gear to change to.
Point is...you reach a far enough milestone, and a big shift could happen...you'll end up with so much Core Stat points to deal with, items that lower Paragon level characters are busy dismissing because they NEED the main stat and Vitality to compete may end up becoming more viable for high Paragon Level characters who already have enough Core Stats to tackle most challenges.
I was thinking along these lines as well. I think it could be possible but as stated you need to be at an insane Plvl to eliminate a core stat from ALL of your gear. I believe eliminating secondary stats from gear is more realistic and viable at this time.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
As always, a lot of interesting, well-thought-out, and well-researched points. I completely agree and was thinking about the same thing the other day: with enough time invested, essentially main stats on gear become useless (again, as stated, assuming there aren't fundamental changes to the Paragon 2.0 system). Imagine the current AH price of gear that has several helpful stats, but no main stats: it is usually nil. Imagine that you've leveled your character to the point that a 10k gold piece of gear on the AH (again, currently) would be an upgrade for your character.
While my mind reels at the awesome possibilities, I have to pose this question: would leveling into the upper echelons of the Paragon 2.0 system essentially render the gear hunt null and void in the sense that you could customize each and every piece without worrying about "expensive" stats like VIT/main stat? This would, of course, only apply to the very top-end players, but it is definitely interesting to think about. Nice work here, CMDM.
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i would choose my own religion and worship my own spirit, but if he ever preached to me i wouldn't want to hear it. i'd drop him, a forgotten god, languishing in shame; and then if i hit stormy seas, i'd have myself to blame.
I have a feeling that the exponential increase in experience required for a new paragon level will essentially make this a pointless discussion, except for maybe some bots after a year of grinding.
This. It might be possible, for the upper-upper-upper-tier of players, but the vast majority of players are not going to go out of their way to readjust their gear based on paragon points. We'll find out for sure in a few years.
nice ,thought of that in similar way,also thought after many years of constant paragon 2.0 gaining we will go with like magic item in main hand if we want to,not to say half naked
The game has to end at some point. Just create a new character. People can't seriously expect infinite progression, it's just not possible.
VERY much agreed. It's a mistake to even attempt to create that.
@cardinalmdm
Maybe I'm taking a min/max approach to this, but I'm not sure pLvls have much to do with this. It will simply amount to whether or not X stat > str/dex/int as to whether or not you'd make that particular swap on an item. I don't think it's going to matter so much if you can stack strength to infinity (in theory, much less in practice) if thorns would be "better" than strength.
However, I would take your post and put a different spin on it: The availability of "infinite" primary stat would, theoretically, make it such that NOT having primary stats on your gear is less punitive than it currently is.
Which I guess is what you're saying, just a bit less... extreme?
OK so all i need to do is log about 3,000 hours into D3 and I should be able to change my gear to not have to depend on main stat rolls and opt for utility...
While my mind reels at the awesome possibilities, I have to pose this question: would leveling into the upper echelons of the Paragon 2.0 system essentially render the gear hunt null and void in the sense that you could customize each and every piece without worrying about "expensive" stats like VIT/main stat? This would, of course, only apply to the very top-end players, but it is definitely interesting to think about. Nice work here, CMDM.
The game has to end at some point. Just create a new character. People can't seriously expect infinite progression, it's just not possible.
@Zhaph
I don't think it would render the gear hunt null and void necessarily. Like I said, gaining Paragon Points for higher Core Stats can cover a lot of bases...mainstat and Vitality, obvious benefits...along with Strength for more Armor, Intelligence for more All Res, and Dexterity for more Dodge...but while Core Stats, and the other stat tabs, do cover a lot of bases, gear does do things the stat tabs won't. +Skill damage, for instance...reduced resource cost, as well as other skill modifications. Found an item last night on a run with some buddies that increased the duration of the Wizard's Blizzard spell. Paragon Points may be able to lower cooldowns and increase max resource, and possibly even regeneration, but that affix isn't something that simple grinding can accomplish.
That was one thing I definitely wanted to highlight in my post...the fact that, yes, Paragon Points and gaining them almost indefinitely, will have more reaching impacts on gear, BUT...even though an almost indefinite stream of Core Stat points may be able to cover the spread in the damage and life departments, gear will absolutely be able to do things simple grinding can't.
Thus, at higher echelons of Paragon leveling, I feel like it's not impossible to eventually see characters with a chestpiece, possibly even weapons, with no mainstat or Vitality, because they have "enough" via Paragon Points to handle what they want to handle.
Then again, that's kinda the nice thing about Paragon 2.0. It's going to give players more options. If a player wants, they can stack ONLY mainstat with their Core Stat points with a particular character, and not focus on Vitality or %Life at all. If they want, they can stack only Vitality with their Core Stat points, let their gear determine mainstat, and go from there.
Ultimately, players want options, and I think this system will open up a lot of them.
@Maka
When the game ends ultimately is up to you. Some players are salivating at the idea of more levels to gain, acquiring points to allocate, coming up with the smartest ways to create a healthy relationship between allocated points and gear, etc. Other players are looking more forward to getting insanely good loot and gear, and equipping the best stuff to make their characters play the most fun way possible.
And I respect both ways. I do feel, though, that Paragon 2.0 and Loot 2.0, TOGETHER, will open the game up vastly for both those schools of thought. :-D
OK so all i need to do is log about 3,000 hours into D3 and I should be able to change my gear to not have to depend on main stat rolls and opt for utility...
Paragon 2.0 lvl 1400 here I come.
You'll notice, CheehC, that I bolded the word "need" in your quote. I believe that's a huge part of why Paragon 2.0 is so important. Removing some of the NEED...
Right now, people NEED certain things on their gear. They NEED mainstat on their gear. They NEED Vitality on their gear. All I'm saying with this post is that, if a player decides to go that route (which is NOT NEEDED), they can attempt to move in a different direction. Will it be the best way? I don't know. Will it be the most "efficient" way? Probably not. But it's a possible avenue to shoot for, and I think that's one of the biggest things players have wanted for Diablo 3 for years...more options, more avenues to become godly, more unique pathways to gearing, powering up and so on.
Like I told Zhaph and Maka...
If a player WANTS to, they can stack ONLY mainstat via gear and Core Stats, and get way more damage output. They'll end up being way more of a "glass cannon" than a high Paragon Level character is now, but that will become a choice.
If a player WANTS to, they can stack ONLY Vitality via gear and Core Stats, and go in more of a defensive/tanky direction....which may end up opening up different gear desires than just doing damage, maybe working in a shield, maybe finding gear with minor stats to get more mileage out of the abundance of Vitality.
If a player WANTS to, they can balance mainstat and Vitality via gear and Core Stats, and work in enough utility via skill choices that mesh with gear.
Ultimately, Core Stats are reasonably shallow innately, as they represent the umbrella above which all the other substats in D3 live. So, choosing an emphasis/focus/leaning for where to put one's Core Stat points per character won't change the world, but the lack of a ceiling can provide a good foundation for people to build characters, long-term.
After a good long while of people gaining Paragon Levels, though...I do think the devs should think about what players can do AFTER they get to Paragon Level 800, and their other three tabs are maxed like everyone else's, to keep innate character progression feeling fresh from that point on...
I think i saw some bluepost regarding the conversion of current paragon lvl to paragon 2.0 conversion a while ago in which is was stated that at the time of writing that post an account with an overall 1.0 paragonlevel 1000 would have an accountwide 2.0 paragonlevel of about ~140 thus rendering any speculation of such a thing as paralvl 500+ worthless.
Dont take it as granted though, its just atop of my head.
Maybe I'm taking a min/max approach to this, but I'm not sure pLvls have much to do with this. It will simply amount to whether or not X stat > str/dex/int as to whether or not you'd make that particular swap on an item. I don't think it's going to matter so much if you can stack strength to infinity (in theory, much less in practice) if thorns would be "better" than strength.
However, I would take your post and put a different spin on it: The availability of "infinite" primary stat would, theoretically, make it such that NOT having primary stats on your gear is less punitive than it currently is.
Which I guess is what you're saying, just a bit less... extreme?
Well, admittedly, I may have been shooting a bit high, in terms of asking the question "could a source of infinite main stat replace main stat on ALL gear?" That, obviously, is a bit of a lofty goal, most certainly.
I have a feeling that the exponential increase in experience required for a new paragon level will essentially make this a pointless discussion, except for maybe some bots after a year of grinding.
This. It might be possible, for the upper-upper-upper-tier of players, but the vast majority of players are not going to go out of their way to readjust their gear based on paragon points. We'll find out for sure in a few years.
As a brief aside to what Mienta is claiming, I don't think that may be the case. If they were adding, say, another 100-200 levels onto Paragon, I might say it'd be exponential, sure. However, my prediction in that regard is that, at least the first few hundred "2.0" levels will probably work similar to games like Defiance...where you do need a lot of XP, and have to work for each upgrade, but each XP requirement for a new level is rather close together. So by the time you need what feels like "too much" XP, it doesn't feel like so much of a stretch.
But to bring it back with Miles claim, sure, a lot of people probably won't readjust ALL their gear based on Paragon Points. I can agree with that.
So...maybe it's more feasible to expect people to change out a slot or two in favor of the main stat they're getting from Paragon Points. Here...to put it in a bit more perspective...the Hellfire Ring craft guarantees a player 170-200 main stat. And the 1.0.7 crafting recipes can guarantee a slot around 200+. At only Paragon Level 400, a player can have around 710 main stat maximum (if all Core Stat points are put into main stat in Reaper of Souls). Which I know, seems like a long trek, but not everyone has hundreds of main stat on every slot. Sometimes, it just doesn't come together.
Thus, depending on the slot and the need, as well as one or more good enough gear replacements coming along for a particular slot, it could be more feasible to replace one slot here, maybe another there...maybe not having 0% main stat on gear fully...but shaggy, like you said, less punitive.
Like I was saying, right now, we NEED main stat on as many pieces as possible. With Paragon Points, the need is lessened depending on how long a player wants to spend. It's a long-term goal, certainly, but with much much higher Paragon Levels being gained, that need is lessened more.
I think i saw some bluepost regarding the conversion of current paragon lvl to paragon 2.0 conversion a while ago in which is was stated that at the time of writing that post an account with an overall 1.0 paragonlevel 1000 would have an accountwide 2.0 paragonlevel of about ~140 thus rendering any speculation of such a thing as paralvl 500+ worthless.
Dont take it as granted though, its just atop of my head.
I want to say I read the same thing...
Though, it is currently in development. While I understand the devs desire to make the highest areas of Paragon leveling hard to reach, I do think they'd benefit from making, like I said, the first few hundred 2.0 Paragon Levels at least be somewhat easy to gain. Even if they want to make Plvl 400 to 800 be slightly harder to reach, and 800 onward be ridiculously hard to get, they need to get the curve just right, which is arguably pretty hard.
They want to ensure that people that put in the time to get 10 Paragon Level 100 characters in the current system have a ways to go in the updates, but at the same time, not make the 2.0 levels require so little XP that the "Paragon 1000" folks aren't running around with Paragon 3000 accounts when the updates go live. :-)
It's a fine balance, but I do think when they work out the finer points, we'll get something of a happy medium. Like you and some others implied, if the amount of XP required is too high, we can cut this conversation short right now, because it's not going to be much of a goal for the bulk of players. I can agree with that much.
This is all idle speculation until we have some information on the conversion rate. If it continues with the same exponential coefficient, p300 is unreachable in the human lifetime even with 100% playtime. I don't see them doing this exactly, but experience in Diablo games has always been exponential. Thus plvl=Log[exp] and logarithms increase very very slowly. There will be some unreachable paragon level, its just a question of what it is unless there's a major change in experience mechanics.
Just to demonstrate. If you grind exp at approximately the current best rate for 30 hours, you have a p100. If you then grind 24/7 every day for 100 years without stopping, you'll just have gotten p400. p500 requires a little more than 10,000 years.
Its totally possible that there will be a major change in experience mechanics (some polynomial instead of an exponential, perhaps, or some strong damping term) but without knowing anything, talking about what happens after p800 is a little crazy.
There is no such thing as "making up for lack of mainstat" on gear. Assuming your character is set in terms of sustainability, its all about damage, and the more IAS and Crit you have, the more weight STR, DEX and INT carry. Ideally, your gear would have all offensive stats that are possible to roll on it actually present. If you do trade STR for some IAS (for example) and keep the same base damage, you'll get gains as you continue leveling, but assuming you're already PLvl800, your gear should be close to optimal in terms of realistic, self-acquired gear at that point.
The characters that can make the most of these trade-off are the ones that don't have high-end gear yet, so the whole situation becomes a bit of a paradox in itself, since characters with sub-optimal gear usually aren't leveled as far yet.
The only part where theory-crafting actually comes in is when you start involving your resource management into the equation. +Resource on hit/crit or whatever else makes sense when the end result means a higher output of sustained damage over time because you can spam your spells more often - the CM Wizard build is probably the most extreme, but easily understandable case of such an approach.
All math will involve having to deal with individual stat-weight, and that shifts all over the place early on, but once you start getting your hands on the gear you want at end-game, your gear should reflect that by having mainstat and secondary stats that boost damage. Even right now, losing only 250 mainstat on any single piece of gear means I'm dropping damage, no matter what other stat would take its place.
Well I know...pretty much all of that, I'm aware of.
But I think you're looking at a character rather shallowly if you think they're only useful if doing the most damage. That may be how it is currently, but with the looks of some of the legendary item effects they're testing that we saw in the datamining, the NEED for resource generators may be eliminated in specifically assembled builds, which would easily be a change in DPS that isn't reflected simply in a character's "damage" number in the details sheet. Which, truthfully, it really can't, seeing as two people could equip the same nine skills and play the build differently in battle. They could time their skills different, retreat more or less, etc.
So yeah, Resource management will play a huge part, that's kind of what I'm referring to here. As I said in the original post...things like mainstat can be gained from Paragon Points, but only certain aspects of one's resource is handled via Paragon Points, mainly Maximum and Regeneration. If one wants to reduce resource cost of a particular skill? They need to do that on gear. Luckily, many new item effects will be taking this into account, and a ton of new builds will arise leaning on various skills that can be cast many times quickly, and far more efficiently than they can be now.
For instance...TONS of DHs use (or have used) Ball Lightning, and I'm pretty sure I saw an item effect on the datamining list that causes Elemental Arrow to instead of costing Hatred, GENERATES 3 Hatred. So not only would one of the most popular Hatred Spenders in the game right now NOT cost Resource anymore, it would generate resource to be used in other ways. Like I said, that's not something that's likely to be factored into the "damage" stat on the details sheet. But it's a pretty important change, especially if elemental effects are put into play.
That's why I'm pointing out this aspect of utility over just having more mainstat. When one takes Loot 2.0 into consideration as well, wWhat it REALLY comes down to is...how much mainstat and/or total damage a character needs to complete all areas and challenges of the game. If their Paragon Points provide them enough mainstat, that they get enough of a damage multiplier from it, to cover all areas...then I'd say it's a viable option.
Admittedly, that's a huge IF. Obviously, they'd have to have gear that really does a lot to change their skills in important ways (lengthen duration of DoT skills, reduce resource cost, increase damage, etc.) in order to make up for the damage they'll be sacrificing. But on the off chance they get enough Paragon Points, from a high enough level, it MAY be possible.
Believe me...I realize how crazy this sounds. And all of this speculation comes down to XP per level. If, like some are saying, the amount to gain each Paragon 2.0 level past 100 is thoroughly exponential, then yes, this is pretty much a moot point. However, if even a few hundred are reasonably easy to gain, and 800 takes maybe a few months...this may not be so off base.
Remember...D2 has a 12+ year legacy to live up to, and there are some dedicated faithfuls that haven't stopped since it's launch. I may not know each in and out of the devs' motivations, but I'm positive they want to give players everything they can get to live up to that 12 year legacy.
This is all idle speculation until we have some information on the conversion rate. If it continues with the same exponential coefficient, p300 is unreachable in the human lifetime even with 100% playtime. I don't see them doing this exactly, but experience in Diablo games has always been exponential. Thus plvl=Log[exp] and logarithms increase very very slowly. There will be some unreachable paragon level, its just a question of what it is unless there's a major change in experience mechanics.
Just to demonstrate. If you grind exp at approximately the current best rate for 30 hours, you have a p100. If you then grind 24/7 every day for 100 years without stopping, you'll just have gotten p400. p500 requires a little more than 10,000 years.
Its totally possible that there will be a major change in experience mechanics (some polynomial instead of an exponential, perhaps, or some strong damping term) but without knowing anything, talking about what happens after p800 is a little crazy.
They could also keep parangon curve as it is now and make it linear after p100, or pretty much anything else actually
elQueso, fully agree. I happen to like making speculations, the crazier the better...especially when I feel like I have a decent reasoning behind it. But you and others are right, much of this particular speculation comes down to the XP curve, which the devs and CMs are yet to release.
In case I haven't mentioned it yet...something else to consider when thinking of the XP curve, though, is the potential they have to change XP rewards on particular challenges, or even just raise them on the newer challenges, like Nephalem Rifts and Trials, Bounties, things like that. Right now, two of my favorite Events in terms of XP are Forged in Battle (where you help the Ironsmith in the Keep Depths fend of Skeletons) and Matriarch's Bones (where you fend off Lord Dunhyld and retrieve his wife's remains from the 3 urns). Both, upon completion, are worth 64k XP. Granted, in terms of the last few levels my (now) Plvl 74 Monk gained (requiring around 146 million XP), only 64k is kind of a drop in the bucket.
But for the newer challenges, if there's greater XP reward (for potentially higher difficulty to complete)...or even if the revised difficulty levels play into XP gain in a way that yields more XP...then a curve similar to what we have now would be reasonable.
Though, I don't think they should make Paragon Level 800 too far off.
This is all idle speculation until we have some information on the conversion rate. If it continues with the same exponential coefficient, p300 is unreachable in the human lifetime even with 100% playtime. I don't see them doing this exactly, but experience in Diablo games has always been exponential. Thus plvl=Log[exp] and logarithms increase very very slowly. There will be some unreachable paragon level, its just a question of what it is unless there's a major change in experience mechanics.
Just to demonstrate. If you grind exp at approximately the current best rate for 30 hours, you have a p100. If you then grind 24/7 every day for 100 years without stopping, you'll just have gotten p400. p500 requires a little more than 10,000 years.
Its totally possible that there will be a major change in experience mechanics (some polynomial instead of an exponential, perhaps, or some strong damping term) but without knowing anything, talking about what happens after p800 is a little crazy.
Lvl 70 monsters give 500% more exp than lvl 63 monsters.... see what I did there? Obviously this isn't what lvl 70 monsters will give but one can assume that they will give more exp than 63 monsters so really any calculation on what the curve is based on right now is moot. If we can get X% more exp per hour than current levels your 10,000 year BS is now reduced drastically.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I like to try to speculate what is going to happen but there are just so many empty variables right now I can't wrap my head around it. If I try to say 'X' might happen then I think about 'Y' and 'Z' and there's just too many divergent outcomes.
His point still stands. The curve will probably still be exponential, which will mean that some plvls will be practically impossible to reach.
We don't have any idea of how much more flat (if at all) the curve will be, but it certainly won't be linear.
It's pretty safe to assume that some levels will just be ridiculous to achieve, but the idea of plvl 300 not being reachable is just silly (this statement nullifies the whole thread based on the idea that obtaining exp/hour will be the exact same in RoS). The main idea at hand is it is possible to level up all trees and obtain a realistic amount of core stats to reduce some core stats off of gear.
All I'm saying is any exponential curve planning for Plvl calculations is pointless to "plan" since level 70 monsters could give literally 1000X times the amount of exp we currently receive. Given that P800 has been thrown out a couple of times I would think p300 would be less than 10,000 years.
The main questions is (X)Plvl obtainable within X (reasonable) hours to allow build flexibility since enough stats can be obtained through Plvls instead of gear. After viewing a few posts I think it is possible; however maybe only replacing a couple pieces of gear rather than full sets.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
His point still stands. The curve will probably still be exponential, which will mean that some plvls will be practically impossible to reach.
We don't have any idea of how much more flat (if at all) the curve will be, but it certainly won't be linear.
It's pretty safe to assume that some levels will just be ridiculous to achieve, but the idea of plvl 300 not being reachable is just silly (this statement nullifies the whole thread based on the idea that obtaining exp/hour will be the exact same in RoS). The main idea at hand is it is possible to level up all trees and obtain a realistic amount of core stats to reduce some core stats off of gear.
All I'm saying is any exponential curve planning for Plvl calculations is pointless to "plan" since level 70 monsters could give literally 1000X times the amount of exp we currently receive. Given that P800 has been thrown out a couple of times I would think p300 would be less than 10,000 years.
If Blizzard does increase level 70 XP by a large factor, but leaves the paragon curve untouched, it'll make all current paragon XP grinding completely pointless, as the post-RoS catchup will take a handful of hours, which would cause a massive and entirely justified shitstorm... so it's safe to assume they won't do that.
Secondly, getting paragon 100 was designed to be a deeptimesink for hardcore players, with a deliberately steep curve especially near the end (which is, by the way, quadratic, not exponential). OTOH paragon 2.0 is being pitched as a core part of post-70 gameplay. I'd guess that Blizzard expects most people who play beyond level 70 to rack up several dozen levels, and the 800+ zone to become the domain of hardcore players.
To that end, I actually expect them to soften the curve by quite a bit, turning from a quadratic into a fairly gentle curve at around 60 which only really starts looking like p100's time-per-level at the 600-700 mark, which would mean people at around plvl 60 would stay where they were, those with a few hundred paragon 1.0 levels could end up doubling their level, and the 800+ crowd would wind up also pretty much exactly where they are now... all of which seems pretty fair.
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I encourage you to read the whole piece, as there might be insight here that can add to the discussion, :-)
So, I'm no stat-hound or theorycrafter by any stretch...some might know that already...however, I was thinking about Paragon 2.0, did some rudimentary math, and I had a thought I'd like to share...
Currently, in Paragon "1.0," after quite a few hours of lengthy grinding, all each character can hope to gain for reaching Paragon Level 100 (on an individual character) is a total maximum of 300 extra main stat, 200 extra Vitality, and 100 to each minor stat. 700 extra stat points, which I believe (if my math is correct) equates to about Paragon Level 560 in 2.0 in order to get the same Core Stat benefit as Paragon Level 100 in "1.0" the earliest, as Paragon Points are gained in order from Level 1, going from Core Stats, Offense Stats, Defense Stats, and Adventure Stats at Level 4, and so on until Level 800.
At 800 Paragon 2.0 Levels, an account has done two things: 1) It has maxed all of the stats found in ALL their characters' Offense, Defense and Adventure tabs. 2) By completing the other tabs fully, every Paragon 2.0 level a player gains after that milestone will continue granting them points in their Core Stat tab, pretty much indefinitely (unless the devs change that between now and launch).
If we divide that up...the first 800 Paragon 2.0 Levels will grant 200 points to each of the four tabs, and if a player takes the 200 Core Stat points and dumps them all into a character's main stat, at Paragon Level 800, they will have gained 1000 additional main stat for that character.
In other words, AFTER Paragon Level 800 is achieved, every subsequent 200 Paragon 2.0 Levels can equate to another 1000 main stat. By Paragon Level 1000, a character can have 2000 extra main stat. Paragon 1200, 3000 mainstat. Paragon 1400, 4000 mainstat. And so on.
Okay, math over....speculation begins here....
Thus, I came up with this theory...while dumping Core Tab Paragon Points into main stat seems like a really shallow, obvious and/or "required" choice, it COULD prove to be an effective, long-term way for a dedicated player to move AWAY from needing main stat and/or Vitality on gear, depending on if they want to build defensive characters with more Life, characters that are balanced between Life and Damage, or more damage-based characters.
Don't believe me? Think about it.
Right now, we need main stat on literally every piece we wear, in an effort to squeeze every point of damage we can out of our output, mainly because aside from skill buffs, passives, gear, and the minute stat increases we get for Paragon levels now, there isn't any other reliable way of increasing damage, no matter how much time we invest. You pick up a Mighty Weapon with no Strength, a Cloak with no Dexterity, a Mojo or Voodoo Mask with no Intelligence, etc., it's deemed instant vendor trash, sometimes not even picked up. If it has main stat with no Vitality, it MIGHT be viable if it has a clump of other popular trifecta stat boosts. But it'll still be looked at as slightly not-as-good if it doesn't have Vitality.
However, with Paragon Levels soon to have NO cap on how high one can increase their Core Stats, a player could effectively gain enough Core Stats from Paragon Points to cause them to need Core Stats on gear far less.
Think of it this way...ALL the things found in the Paragon Point tabs can be found on gear. BUT...not every affix found on gear is in the Paragon Point tabs:
Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Vitality, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Attack Speed, overall Cooldown Reduction, %Life, Resist All, %Armor, Dodge Chance, Move Speed, Max Resource/Resource (Re)gen, Magic Find, Pickup Radius...those are ALL found on gear.
But Life Per Resource Spent? +Skill Damage? Reduced resource cost? Those are NOT found in the Paragon Point tabs. Those are increases and upgrades that can only be acquired through gear and skills alone.
This being the case, it leads me to believe Paragon 2.0 could end up making gear without any main stat on it completely viable at high enough Paragon Levels. Yes, there would be a reduction in the exact damage number or damage multiplier resulting from a lower main stat, but being free from NEEDING main stat on gear leaves a player open to find good gear with skill-adjusting affixes...while gaining more main stat and Vitality via subsequent Paragon Levels.
Sure, you can just stack additional main stat for better damage, and that will still likely be the easiest thing to do. But given the tradeoff of better skill utility...I may go with the latter, and grind for more main stat. It would certainly make gear options a lot more interesting.
Like I've said, it seems ultimately like a long-term goal, at best. Maybe a slow and steady replacement. You could either do it on your way to 800, by working in Point upgrades to Crit Damage and Attack Speed to make up for the lack of main stat you're losing on your gear, or you could hit a high enough Paragon level, and respec when you find the right gear to change to.
Point is...you reach a far enough milestone, and a big shift could happen...you'll end up with so much Core Stat points to deal with, items that lower Paragon level characters are busy dismissing because they NEED the main stat and Vitality to compete may end up becoming more viable for high Paragon Level characters who already have enough Core Stats to tackle most challenges.
Thoughts anyone?
While my mind reels at the awesome possibilities, I have to pose this question: would leveling into the upper echelons of the Paragon 2.0 system essentially render the gear hunt null and void in the sense that you could customize each and every piece without worrying about "expensive" stats like VIT/main stat? This would, of course, only apply to the very top-end players, but it is definitely interesting to think about. Nice work here, CMDM.
This. It might be possible, for the upper-upper-upper-tier of players, but the vast majority of players are not going to go out of their way to readjust their gear based on paragon points. We'll find out for sure in a few years.
VERY much agreed. It's a mistake to even attempt to create that.
@cardinalmdm
Maybe I'm taking a min/max approach to this, but I'm not sure pLvls have much to do with this. It will simply amount to whether or not X stat > str/dex/int as to whether or not you'd make that particular swap on an item. I don't think it's going to matter so much if you can stack strength to infinity (in theory, much less in practice) if thorns would be "better" than strength.
However, I would take your post and put a different spin on it: The availability of "infinite" primary stat would, theoretically, make it such that NOT having primary stats on your gear is less punitive than it currently is.
Which I guess is what you're saying, just a bit less... extreme?
Paragon 2.0 lvl 1400 here I come.
@Zhaph
I don't think it would render the gear hunt null and void necessarily. Like I said, gaining Paragon Points for higher Core Stats can cover a lot of bases...mainstat and Vitality, obvious benefits...along with Strength for more Armor, Intelligence for more All Res, and Dexterity for more Dodge...but while Core Stats, and the other stat tabs, do cover a lot of bases, gear does do things the stat tabs won't. +Skill damage, for instance...reduced resource cost, as well as other skill modifications. Found an item last night on a run with some buddies that increased the duration of the Wizard's Blizzard spell. Paragon Points may be able to lower cooldowns and increase max resource, and possibly even regeneration, but that affix isn't something that simple grinding can accomplish.
That was one thing I definitely wanted to highlight in my post...the fact that, yes, Paragon Points and gaining them almost indefinitely, will have more reaching impacts on gear, BUT...even though an almost indefinite stream of Core Stat points may be able to cover the spread in the damage and life departments, gear will absolutely be able to do things simple grinding can't.
Thus, at higher echelons of Paragon leveling, I feel like it's not impossible to eventually see characters with a chestpiece, possibly even weapons, with no mainstat or Vitality, because they have "enough" via Paragon Points to handle what they want to handle.
Then again, that's kinda the nice thing about Paragon 2.0. It's going to give players more options. If a player wants, they can stack ONLY mainstat with their Core Stat points with a particular character, and not focus on Vitality or %Life at all. If they want, they can stack only Vitality with their Core Stat points, let their gear determine mainstat, and go from there.
Ultimately, players want options, and I think this system will open up a lot of them.
@Maka
When the game ends ultimately is up to you. Some players are salivating at the idea of more levels to gain, acquiring points to allocate, coming up with the smartest ways to create a healthy relationship between allocated points and gear, etc. Other players are looking more forward to getting insanely good loot and gear, and equipping the best stuff to make their characters play the most fun way possible.
And I respect both ways. I do feel, though, that Paragon 2.0 and Loot 2.0, TOGETHER, will open the game up vastly for both those schools of thought. :-D
You'll notice, CheehC, that I bolded the word "need" in your quote. I believe that's a huge part of why Paragon 2.0 is so important. Removing some of the NEED...
Right now, people NEED certain things on their gear. They NEED mainstat on their gear. They NEED Vitality on their gear. All I'm saying with this post is that, if a player decides to go that route (which is NOT NEEDED), they can attempt to move in a different direction. Will it be the best way? I don't know. Will it be the most "efficient" way? Probably not. But it's a possible avenue to shoot for, and I think that's one of the biggest things players have wanted for Diablo 3 for years...more options, more avenues to become godly, more unique pathways to gearing, powering up and so on.
Like I told Zhaph and Maka...
If a player WANTS to, they can stack ONLY mainstat via gear and Core Stats, and get way more damage output. They'll end up being way more of a "glass cannon" than a high Paragon Level character is now, but that will become a choice.
If a player WANTS to, they can stack ONLY Vitality via gear and Core Stats, and go in more of a defensive/tanky direction....which may end up opening up different gear desires than just doing damage, maybe working in a shield, maybe finding gear with minor stats to get more mileage out of the abundance of Vitality.
If a player WANTS to, they can balance mainstat and Vitality via gear and Core Stats, and work in enough utility via skill choices that mesh with gear.
Ultimately, Core Stats are reasonably shallow innately, as they represent the umbrella above which all the other substats in D3 live. So, choosing an emphasis/focus/leaning for where to put one's Core Stat points per character won't change the world, but the lack of a ceiling can provide a good foundation for people to build characters, long-term.
After a good long while of people gaining Paragon Levels, though...I do think the devs should think about what players can do AFTER they get to Paragon Level 800, and their other three tabs are maxed like everyone else's, to keep innate character progression feeling fresh from that point on...
Dont take it as granted though, its just atop of my head.
Well, admittedly, I may have been shooting a bit high, in terms of asking the question "could a source of infinite main stat replace main stat on ALL gear?" That, obviously, is a bit of a lofty goal, most certainly.
As a brief aside to what Mienta is claiming, I don't think that may be the case. If they were adding, say, another 100-200 levels onto Paragon, I might say it'd be exponential, sure. However, my prediction in that regard is that, at least the first few hundred "2.0" levels will probably work similar to games like Defiance...where you do need a lot of XP, and have to work for each upgrade, but each XP requirement for a new level is rather close together. So by the time you need what feels like "too much" XP, it doesn't feel like so much of a stretch.
But to bring it back with Miles claim, sure, a lot of people probably won't readjust ALL their gear based on Paragon Points. I can agree with that.
So...maybe it's more feasible to expect people to change out a slot or two in favor of the main stat they're getting from Paragon Points. Here...to put it in a bit more perspective...the Hellfire Ring craft guarantees a player 170-200 main stat. And the 1.0.7 crafting recipes can guarantee a slot around 200+. At only Paragon Level 400, a player can have around 710 main stat maximum (if all Core Stat points are put into main stat in Reaper of Souls). Which I know, seems like a long trek, but not everyone has hundreds of main stat on every slot. Sometimes, it just doesn't come together.
Thus, depending on the slot and the need, as well as one or more good enough gear replacements coming along for a particular slot, it could be more feasible to replace one slot here, maybe another there...maybe not having 0% main stat on gear fully...but shaggy, like you said, less punitive.
Like I was saying, right now, we NEED main stat on as many pieces as possible. With Paragon Points, the need is lessened depending on how long a player wants to spend. It's a long-term goal, certainly, but with much much higher Paragon Levels being gained, that need is lessened more.
I want to say I read the same thing...
Though, it is currently in development. While I understand the devs desire to make the highest areas of Paragon leveling hard to reach, I do think they'd benefit from making, like I said, the first few hundred 2.0 Paragon Levels at least be somewhat easy to gain. Even if they want to make Plvl 400 to 800 be slightly harder to reach, and 800 onward be ridiculously hard to get, they need to get the curve just right, which is arguably pretty hard.
They want to ensure that people that put in the time to get 10 Paragon Level 100 characters in the current system have a ways to go in the updates, but at the same time, not make the 2.0 levels require so little XP that the "Paragon 1000" folks aren't running around with Paragon 3000 accounts when the updates go live. :-)
It's a fine balance, but I do think when they work out the finer points, we'll get something of a happy medium. Like you and some others implied, if the amount of XP required is too high, we can cut this conversation short right now, because it's not going to be much of a goal for the bulk of players. I can agree with that much.
Just to demonstrate. If you grind exp at approximately the current best rate for 30 hours, you have a p100. If you then grind 24/7 every day for 100 years without stopping, you'll just have gotten p400. p500 requires a little more than 10,000 years.
Its totally possible that there will be a major change in experience mechanics (some polynomial instead of an exponential, perhaps, or some strong damping term) but without knowing anything, talking about what happens after p800 is a little crazy.
Well I know...pretty much all of that, I'm aware of.
But I think you're looking at a character rather shallowly if you think they're only useful if doing the most damage. That may be how it is currently, but with the looks of some of the legendary item effects they're testing that we saw in the datamining, the NEED for resource generators may be eliminated in specifically assembled builds, which would easily be a change in DPS that isn't reflected simply in a character's "damage" number in the details sheet. Which, truthfully, it really can't, seeing as two people could equip the same nine skills and play the build differently in battle. They could time their skills different, retreat more or less, etc.
So yeah, Resource management will play a huge part, that's kind of what I'm referring to here. As I said in the original post...things like mainstat can be gained from Paragon Points, but only certain aspects of one's resource is handled via Paragon Points, mainly Maximum and Regeneration. If one wants to reduce resource cost of a particular skill? They need to do that on gear. Luckily, many new item effects will be taking this into account, and a ton of new builds will arise leaning on various skills that can be cast many times quickly, and far more efficiently than they can be now.
For instance...TONS of DHs use (or have used) Ball Lightning, and I'm pretty sure I saw an item effect on the datamining list that causes Elemental Arrow to instead of costing Hatred, GENERATES 3 Hatred. So not only would one of the most popular Hatred Spenders in the game right now NOT cost Resource anymore, it would generate resource to be used in other ways. Like I said, that's not something that's likely to be factored into the "damage" stat on the details sheet. But it's a pretty important change, especially if elemental effects are put into play.
That's why I'm pointing out this aspect of utility over just having more mainstat. When one takes Loot 2.0 into consideration as well, wWhat it REALLY comes down to is...how much mainstat and/or total damage a character needs to complete all areas and challenges of the game. If their Paragon Points provide them enough mainstat, that they get enough of a damage multiplier from it, to cover all areas...then I'd say it's a viable option.
Admittedly, that's a huge IF. Obviously, they'd have to have gear that really does a lot to change their skills in important ways (lengthen duration of DoT skills, reduce resource cost, increase damage, etc.) in order to make up for the damage they'll be sacrificing. But on the off chance they get enough Paragon Points, from a high enough level, it MAY be possible.
Believe me...I realize how crazy this sounds. And all of this speculation comes down to XP per level. If, like some are saying, the amount to gain each Paragon 2.0 level past 100 is thoroughly exponential, then yes, this is pretty much a moot point. However, if even a few hundred are reasonably easy to gain, and 800 takes maybe a few months...this may not be so off base.
Remember...D2 has a 12+ year legacy to live up to, and there are some dedicated faithfuls that haven't stopped since it's launch. I may not know each in and out of the devs' motivations, but I'm positive they want to give players everything they can get to live up to that 12 year legacy.
elQueso, fully agree. I happen to like making speculations, the crazier the better...especially when I feel like I have a decent reasoning behind it. But you and others are right, much of this particular speculation comes down to the XP curve, which the devs and CMs are yet to release.
In case I haven't mentioned it yet...something else to consider when thinking of the XP curve, though, is the potential they have to change XP rewards on particular challenges, or even just raise them on the newer challenges, like Nephalem Rifts and Trials, Bounties, things like that. Right now, two of my favorite Events in terms of XP are Forged in Battle (where you help the Ironsmith in the Keep Depths fend of Skeletons) and Matriarch's Bones (where you fend off Lord Dunhyld and retrieve his wife's remains from the 3 urns). Both, upon completion, are worth 64k XP. Granted, in terms of the last few levels my (now) Plvl 74 Monk gained (requiring around 146 million XP), only 64k is kind of a drop in the bucket.
But for the newer challenges, if there's greater XP reward (for potentially higher difficulty to complete)...or even if the revised difficulty levels play into XP gain in a way that yields more XP...then a curve similar to what we have now would be reasonable.
Though, I don't think they should make Paragon Level 800 too far off.
Lvl 70 monsters give 500% more exp than lvl 63 monsters.... see what I did there? Obviously this isn't what lvl 70 monsters will give but one can assume that they will give more exp than 63 monsters so really any calculation on what the curve is based on right now is moot. If we can get X% more exp per hour than current levels your 10,000 year BS is now reduced drastically.
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It's pretty safe to assume that some levels will just be ridiculous to achieve, but the idea of plvl 300 not being reachable is just silly (this statement nullifies the whole thread based on the idea that obtaining exp/hour will be the exact same in RoS). The main idea at hand is it is possible to level up all trees and obtain a realistic amount of core stats to reduce some core stats off of gear.
All I'm saying is any exponential curve planning for Plvl calculations is pointless to "plan" since level 70 monsters could give literally 1000X times the amount of exp we currently receive. Given that P800 has been thrown out a couple of times I would think p300 would be less than 10,000 years.
The main questions is (X)Plvl obtainable within X (reasonable) hours to allow build flexibility since enough stats can be obtained through Plvls instead of gear. After viewing a few posts I think it is possible; however maybe only replacing a couple pieces of gear rather than full sets.
If Blizzard does increase level 70 XP by a large factor, but leaves the paragon curve untouched, it'll make all current paragon XP grinding completely pointless, as the post-RoS catchup will take a handful of hours, which would cause a massive and entirely justified shitstorm... so it's safe to assume they won't do that.
Secondly, getting paragon 100 was designed to be a deep timesink for hardcore players, with a deliberately steep curve especially near the end (which is, by the way, quadratic, not exponential). OTOH paragon 2.0 is being pitched as a core part of post-70 gameplay. I'd guess that Blizzard expects most people who play beyond level 70 to rack up several dozen levels, and the 800+ zone to become the domain of hardcore players.
To that end, I actually expect them to soften the curve by quite a bit, turning from a quadratic into a fairly gentle curve at around 60 which only really starts looking like p100's time-per-level at the 600-700 mark, which would mean people at around plvl 60 would stay where they were, those with a few hundred paragon 1.0 levels could end up doubling their level, and the 800+ crowd would wind up also pretty much exactly where they are now... all of which seems pretty fair.