This is an awesome point. Using a 2 hander can nullify your need for resource generation under some circumstances because of the higher damage per resource point and lower rate of fire. It's a game changer.
It changes very little... there are still going to be circumstances where you must use your ability N times regardless of the strength of your weapon simply due to the number of targets and how spread out they may be. Also, by using a spender as all attacks, you remove the ability to reserve your resources for more critical moments.
My impression from beta streams and such is that 2h vs. dual seems to be pretty balanced.
So I will be making the choice just on drops.
If I find a good 2h (go 2h) or a good 1h (go shield) or 2 equally good 1h (go dual).
If they don't differ that much in power I will choose 2h or shield for style over dual.
A flat comparison of DPS is "easy."
For convenience sake, lets use a Monk who uses Hundred Fists unruned and Lashing Kick unruned on single targets to start. Using Monk because he has no non-item/skill Spirit regen.
Given the current ratios of rare weapons at 60 (which presumably scales true at all levels) according to d3db.com, the base damage of a Daibo is 35.93% higher, so I'll use 100 dps fist and 135.9 dps daibo. Fists have a speed of 1.4 APS, and when dual wielding, you have 1.61 after the bonus. Or in other words, you have 115 DPS. Just based on these values, the Daibo is doing 18.2% higher DPS.
You could calculate the damage of each skill or DPS of each skill, however, you have to take into account the Spirit regen, which is:
Fists: 1.61 * 6 = 9.66/s
Daibo: 1.1 * 6 = 6.6/s
In other words, on average after every 30 / [Spirit Regen] seconds, you can perform 1 Lashing Kick.
Fists: 3.11s
Daibo: 4.55s
It will take 1 / APS to actually perform the Ability, so we can add that time to the previous to find the average time of the rotation:
Fists: 3.727s
Daibo: 5.45s
For the end practical dps for Fists, you are doing 3.11s at 140% WD, and 1 instance of 200% for every 3.727s. Add the two damage values and divide by the time to get the overall dps:
Fists: 100 DPS / 1.4 APS = 71.4 Avg Dmg
Daibo: 135.9 DPS / 1.1 APS = 123.5 Avg Dmg
Fists: (3.11 * 115 * 1.4) + (71.4 * 2) = 172.5 DPS
Daibo: (4.55 * 135.9 * 1.4) + (123.5 * 2) = 203.9 DPS
So as a result, Daibo is doing 18.2% more dps, which is exactly what you expect.
The calculations get way more interesting when you add in additional sources of passive spirit regen, multiple targets, skill procs, and rotations beyond 2 skills. But yes, the more important point to be made is that it strongly depends on skill selection. The more passive spirit regen, the better the Daibo will be in using Spenders, while 1H/S and DW will remain the safer option due to requiring less time
Couple of points I am remembering, some of these may have changed:
For barbs massive, and maybe all 2handers get bonus fury generation.
Also, I want to say someone posted that they were planning on 2handers having more bonus attributes then 1handers
For the end practical dps for Fists, you are doing 3.11s at 140% WD, and 1 instance of 200% for every 3.727s. Add the two damage values and divide by the time to get the overall dps:
Fists: 100 DPS / 1.4 APS = 71.4 Avg Dmg
Daibo: 135.9 DPS / 1.1 APS = 123.5 Avg Dmg
Fists: (3.11 * 115 * 1.4) + (71.4 * 2) = 172.5 DPS
Daibo: (4.55 * 135.9 * 1.4) + (123.5 * 2) = 203.9 DPS
So as a result, Daibo is doing 18.2% more dps, which is exactly what you expect.
Why don't you use 1.61 APS for the fists and 1.1 for the daibo in your calc? You have defined it at the top, but appear to be using a different APS in the calc, I don't understand that.
It should bring the two weapons very close together and, very likely, actually show that fists are superior.
For the end practical dps for Fists, you are doing 3.11s at 140% WD, and 1 instance of 200% for every 3.727s. Add the two damage values and divide by the time to get the overall dps:
Fists: 100 DPS / 1.4 APS = 71.4 Avg Dmg
Daibo: 135.9 DPS / 1.1 APS = 123.5 Avg Dmg
Fists: (3.11 * 115 * 1.4) + (71.4 * 2) = 172.5 DPS
Daibo: (4.55 * 135.9 * 1.4) + (123.5 * 2) = 203.9 DPS
So as a result, Daibo is doing 18.2% more dps, which is exactly what you expect.
Why don't you use 1.61 APS for the fists and 1.1 for the daibo in your calc? You have defined it at the top, but appear to be using a different APS in the calc, I don't understand that.
It should bring the two weapons very close together and, very likely, actually show that fists are superior.
They're still working on numbers, but...you don't really need to go that far into calculations. It's more on playstyle than anything. Also - any items that give flat +attackspersecond instead of +% will scale far better with 2-handed weapons.
IE:
Level 60 normal Daibo
314.6 - 326.2 DPS
201 - 208 Min Damage
371 - 385 Max Damage
1.1 APS
Level 60 normal fist
242.2 - 248.5 DPS
104 - 107 Min Damage
242 - 248 Max Damage
1.4 APS
For the sake of dual wielding, let's change that to...1.61 APS?
Let's go with average damage stats...
Daibo:
204.5 Min
378 Max
291.25 Average Damage
320.38 DPS
Fist:
105.5 Min
245 Max
175.25 Average Damage
282.15 DPS (if dual wielding)
Obviously skills will have separate calculations...but yeah...what you should use is based on the gear you have. If you have more +% attack speed items: use one handers. If you have more +attacks per second items: Use a two hander. Let's compare one fist vs. a daibo if you have +.2 APS.
Adding +0.20 APS to the Daibo will take it from 320.38 DPS to 378.63 DPS.
Adding +0.20 APS to the Fist will take it from 245.35 to 280.4.
The Daibo gained 58.25 DPS whereas the Fist gained 35.05.
Daibo = 2.91 DPS per +.01 APS
Fist = 1.75 DPS per +.01 APS
Anyways...those are my thoughts about Daibo Vs Fists in plain white damage. Skills won't change too much I'm afraid. It's all about resource generation and spending - playstyle preference.
Edit: and yes, I know that items are being worked on. It was just an example of how the weapons will deliver different feels and play styles =).
I'm thinking that equal level one-handers and a two-hander will do roughly the same consistent damage, but each style has differences to it
Two-handers will probably be the best for PvP, since, for example as a Barbarian, your Fury spenders are going to hit for a lot more, thereby creating more burst damage. Over time, that two-hander and two one-handers would do the same DPS, but this is PvP and you want your damage now to kill this guy, not later.
You guys also forget that while, yes, one-handers hit more so their +Damage affixes will fire more, but two-handers will have higher +Damage affixes on them to compensate for slower speed.
I also like what someone said about the WD wanting slower weapons due to the risk of running out of mana, since his man regens at a fixed rate, and his spells don't have a variable cost based on speed, he wants the most bang for his buck.
In beta right now though, with us one-shotting most everything anyway, you'd want a fast weapon or two to maximize attack speed, and therefore maximizing killing speed. The extra damage on a two-hander is wasted in overkill. This won't be the case in release, since we aren't gonna be level 13 doing Cathedral Level 3.
Yes, agreed with both of the two most recent posts.
From an abilities perspective, logically, you're going to have DW that does less damage per hit but generates resources faster so you can hit more frequently. The opposite is true of 2H.
I guess we'll have to see how it balances out when we get access to top tier items and do real calculations over the span of a 30 second boss fight. That's where rotations come into play and we'll be able to start calculating damage per spirit/fury point, etc. I think it's too early to be discussing rotations without access to all the runes.
Yes, agreed with both of the two most recent posts.
From an abilities perspective, logically, you're going to have DW that does less damage per hit but generates resources faster so you can hit more frequently. The opposite is true of 2H.
I guess we'll have to see how it balances out when we get access to top tier items and do real calculations over the span of a 30 second boss fight. That's where rotations come into play and we'll be able to start calculating damage per spirit/fury point, etc. I think it's too early to be discussing rotations without access to all the runes.
Pretty much what I was saying. It's too early...and it's really just a play style choice. Well...that, and some passives change depending on what you use weapon-wise.
What is prefered (between fast weaker attacks and slow harder hitting attacks) is going to mostly depends on which Hero we are talking about and what build.
There is not going to be a overarching rule of thumb that states (2h is better than DW) or something like that.
You really can't assess DW vs 2H balance in the beta because there aren't nearly as many +Damage affixees in play as there will be in the full game.
Due to its superior attack speed, DW will always get a larger benefit from flat + damage increasers.
Also, DW gives you twice as many available affixes. As affixes scale, you'll gain a lot of extra Strength, Attack Speed, etc.
However, 2H has one MAJOR advantage over DW for melee characters, and that's superior reach. The reason that Cleaving with a big sword is so much more effective than cleaving with two 1hs is that the Cleave area of effect is much larger. Even with non-AoE melee abilities, the 2h's longer melee reach can be a significant advantage for fighting other melee creatures.
However, 2H has one MAJOR advantage over DW for melee characters, and that's superior reach. The reason that Cleaving with a big sword is so much more effective than cleaving with two 1hs is that the Cleave area of effect is much larger. Even with non-AoE melee abilities, the 2h's longer melee reach can be a significant advantage for fighting other melee creatures.
I don't think there's been any evidence of this so far in beta. At least there's been no discussion about it, which I take as a proof of inexistence. I would really like this mechanic myself, but it probably to fell into Blizzard's category of "not a fun thing to manage".
I really haven't noticed that as well.
I mean, obviously a Flamberge apparently (graphically) reaches "longer" than a pair of Hand Axes, but the actual skill range feels pretty much the same.
Any videos/screenshots or links to a discussion on this?
2H weapons are best for taking advantage of openings, at least in other games I've played. I'll try to explain this. Sometime you have a boss or an opponent who is bloody freakin strong. So strong that if you get hit by a certain move you are dead and there is no getting around this, I'm talking about damage that even wearing a shield won't help. In similar hack and slashes if you have enough patience to take advantage of your openings and then kite to avoid those 1 hit kill spells that you know the monster is going to use because you know the monsters spell pattern. With a powerfull two handed weapon you can make good use of you small window of oppotunity (this only applies to melee by the way) and run for your life when you think things are going to get too hairy. As that window of opportunity becomes smaller and you are only allowed a few hits that stronger 2H weapon will shine over weaker weapons that require getting in a lot of fast hits. This applies to PvP when as a melee character you are facing fast & strong enemies and you need to take full advantage of your short and scarce moments of opportunitiy.
I would much rather dual wield fist weapons on a Monk, or 1h Axes on a Barb. Because I'm just not a fan of big weapons... I prefer the "cool" factor of using 2 weapons
But I fear dual wielding will be near useless. Since the 2 classes I plan on playing, mostly do dmg from %dmg skills, so aspd isn't even an issue. Regardless of weapon size, Whirlwind will still be dealing dmg at the same speed. Making a 2h far superior. Same goes for the Monks skills, since they inherently attack fast, as well as 7-Sided Strike...
Is it possible to switch between weapon sets in combat? Like switch to a staff for 7-sided, then back to dual wield fists to generate spirit?
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/219255-main-hand-damage/
For convenience sake, lets use a Monk who uses Hundred Fists unruned and Lashing Kick unruned on single targets to start. Using Monk because he has no non-item/skill Spirit regen.
Given the current ratios of rare weapons at 60 (which presumably scales true at all levels) according to d3db.com, the base damage of a Daibo is 35.93% higher, so I'll use 100 dps fist and 135.9 dps daibo. Fists have a speed of 1.4 APS, and when dual wielding, you have 1.61 after the bonus. Or in other words, you have 115 DPS. Just based on these values, the Daibo is doing 18.2% higher DPS.
You could calculate the damage of each skill or DPS of each skill, however, you have to take into account the Spirit regen, which is:
Fists: 1.61 * 6 = 9.66/s
Daibo: 1.1 * 6 = 6.6/s
In other words, on average after every 30 / [Spirit Regen] seconds, you can perform 1 Lashing Kick.
Fists: 3.11s
Daibo: 4.55s
It will take 1 / APS to actually perform the Ability, so we can add that time to the previous to find the average time of the rotation:
Fists: 3.727s
Daibo: 5.45s
For the end practical dps for Fists, you are doing 3.11s at 140% WD, and 1 instance of 200% for every 3.727s. Add the two damage values and divide by the time to get the overall dps:
Fists: 100 DPS / 1.4 APS = 71.4 Avg Dmg
Daibo: 135.9 DPS / 1.1 APS = 123.5 Avg Dmg
Fists: (3.11 * 115 * 1.4) + (71.4 * 2) = 172.5 DPS
Daibo: (4.55 * 135.9 * 1.4) + (123.5 * 2) = 203.9 DPS
So as a result, Daibo is doing 18.2% more dps, which is exactly what you expect.
The calculations get way more interesting when you add in additional sources of passive spirit regen, multiple targets, skill procs, and rotations beyond 2 skills. But yes, the more important point to be made is that it strongly depends on skill selection. The more passive spirit regen, the better the Daibo will be in using Spenders, while 1H/S and DW will remain the safer option due to requiring less time
Edit: Corrections made
For barbs massive, and maybe all 2handers get bonus fury generation.
Also, I want to say someone posted that they were planning on 2handers having more bonus attributes then 1handers
Why don't you use 1.61 APS for the fists and 1.1 for the daibo in your calc? You have defined it at the top, but appear to be using a different APS in the calc, I don't understand that.
It should bring the two weapons very close together and, very likely, actually show that fists are superior.
They're still working on numbers, but...you don't really need to go that far into calculations. It's more on playstyle than anything. Also - any items that give flat +attackspersecond instead of +% will scale far better with 2-handed weapons.
IE:
Level 60 normal Daibo
314.6 - 326.2 DPS
201 - 208 Min Damage
371 - 385 Max Damage
1.1 APS
Level 60 normal fist
242.2 - 248.5 DPS
104 - 107 Min Damage
242 - 248 Max Damage
1.4 APS
For the sake of dual wielding, let's change that to...1.61 APS?
Let's go with average damage stats...
Daibo:
204.5 Min
378 Max
291.25 Average Damage
320.38 DPS
Fist:
105.5 Min
245 Max
175.25 Average Damage
282.15 DPS (if dual wielding)
Obviously skills will have separate calculations...but yeah...what you should use is based on the gear you have. If you have more +% attack speed items: use one handers. If you have more +attacks per second items: Use a two hander. Let's compare one fist vs. a daibo if you have +.2 APS.
Adding +0.20 APS to the Daibo will take it from 320.38 DPS to 378.63 DPS.
Adding +0.20 APS to the Fist will take it from 245.35 to 280.4.
The Daibo gained 58.25 DPS whereas the Fist gained 35.05.
Daibo = 2.91 DPS per +.01 APS
Fist = 1.75 DPS per +.01 APS
Anyways...those are my thoughts about Daibo Vs Fists in plain white damage. Skills won't change too much I'm afraid. It's all about resource generation and spending - playstyle preference.
Edit: and yes, I know that items are being worked on. It was just an example of how the weapons will deliver different feels and play styles =).
Two-handers will probably be the best for PvP, since, for example as a Barbarian, your Fury spenders are going to hit for a lot more, thereby creating more burst damage. Over time, that two-hander and two one-handers would do the same DPS, but this is PvP and you want your damage now to kill this guy, not later.
You guys also forget that while, yes, one-handers hit more so their +Damage affixes will fire more, but two-handers will have higher +Damage affixes on them to compensate for slower speed.
I also like what someone said about the WD wanting slower weapons due to the risk of running out of mana, since his man regens at a fixed rate, and his spells don't have a variable cost based on speed, he wants the most bang for his buck.
In beta right now though, with us one-shotting most everything anyway, you'd want a fast weapon or two to maximize attack speed, and therefore maximizing killing speed. The extra damage on a two-hander is wasted in overkill. This won't be the case in release, since we aren't gonna be level 13 doing Cathedral Level 3.
From an abilities perspective, logically, you're going to have DW that does less damage per hit but generates resources faster so you can hit more frequently. The opposite is true of 2H.
I guess we'll have to see how it balances out when we get access to top tier items and do real calculations over the span of a 30 second boss fight. That's where rotations come into play and we'll be able to start calculating damage per spirit/fury point, etc. I think it's too early to be discussing rotations without access to all the runes.
Pretty much what I was saying. It's too early...and it's really just a play style choice. Well...that, and some passives change depending on what you use weapon-wise.
-Bonus weapon damage
-Attack speed (to boost crit count and resource generation)
-Shields
I haven't seen anything that exclusively synergizes with a slow 2H.
Also PvP, for burst damage. Faster weapons, and dual-wielding, tend to provide more sustained damage than bursty damage.
There is not going to be a overarching rule of thumb that states (2h is better than DW) or something like that.
Due to its superior attack speed, DW will always get a larger benefit from flat + damage increasers.
Also, DW gives you twice as many available affixes. As affixes scale, you'll gain a lot of extra Strength, Attack Speed, etc.
However, 2H has one MAJOR advantage over DW for melee characters, and that's superior reach. The reason that Cleaving with a big sword is so much more effective than cleaving with two 1hs is that the Cleave area of effect is much larger. Even with non-AoE melee abilities, the 2h's longer melee reach can be a significant advantage for fighting other melee creatures.
I mean, obviously a Flamberge apparently (graphically) reaches "longer" than a pair of Hand Axes, but the actual skill range feels pretty much the same.
Any videos/screenshots or links to a discussion on this?
1h: 6...3....5...4..4..4
2h:9..........9.......8
But I fear dual wielding will be near useless. Since the 2 classes I plan on playing, mostly do dmg from %dmg skills, so aspd isn't even an issue. Regardless of weapon size, Whirlwind will still be dealing dmg at the same speed. Making a 2h far superior. Same goes for the Monks skills, since they inherently attack fast, as well as 7-Sided Strike...
Is it possible to switch between weapon sets in combat? Like switch to a staff for 7-sided, then back to dual wield fists to generate spirit?
faster weapon = faster resource drain...for wizards