Izual was the one who fooled Tyrael into thinking the soulstones perfect prisons. So unless Izual was a double-agent infiltrating Hell on behalf of Tyrael who then spent who knows how long imprisoned in a demonic body before finally being killed by Tyrael's agents, at which point he still faithfully served Tyrael
I find this more believable actually because the angles were spawned as the essence of goodness, so how can one become evil? wouldn't that by definition kill the angel. You are a being of mater if you are set on fire (converted into energy) you die. That is something in the lore that bothers me. I can understand angles and demons becoming close to neutral, but not changing their very nature. (ps WILD SPECULATION!)
Also I was thinking that he black soulstone may in some whay be the source of the other soulstones either they were broken off, or they were modeled after this one.
It still doesn't fit with Azmodan's speech. That would mean he is really talking to Leah, and why would he do that? You defy Leah Azmodan? Great job there buddy.
I don't see why Azmodan can't be talking to Leah as a representative of humanity. Sure She didn't do anything, but humans did. The Horadrum (with some help) imprisoned the Evils and then mortal heroes banished them from sanctuary. With the worldstone gone the Humans are likely to become an even greater threat. Defying the aspirations of humanity would be more impressive in that circumstance. As a note here, I agree that it is probably her connection to Diablo, but it is worth noting that speaking to Leah could be explained fairly reasonably.
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
I mentioned it before. And after putting all the pieces phrozen has offered up together. I'm completely convinced Azmodan is speaking to Diablo in cinematic about the soulstone. It's his tone, he is so prideful, almost mocking. You only talk that way when your really rubbing it in. I believe Azomdan has figured out that the primes engineered their exile, and the black soulstone is his coup. Furthermore, that soulstone is from the high heavens, more over, it was the falling star. Someone their is trying to undo humanity, and Azmodan's invasion is a way to get hell the do their dirt work for them. Azmodan might even be walking into a trap, he doesn't seem the subtle type. I realized that it was Tyrael who gave the horadrim the soulstones, they aren't a human invention.
So basically, everyone, Izual, Tyrael, Diablo, Baal, Azmodan, everyone has be tricked by the soulstone plot. When in reality, it was all just a way to get the demons onto sanctuary so they could destroy humanity leaving "someone" with clean hands.
God, why didn't I think about this before. I'm pretty sure in the Lore Panel they specifically said they wanted Azmodan to represent Pride. *bangs head* So that would mean the other 6 on the thrones are the other sins, blah blah. Damn my memory.
No no Daemaro, I read that they wanted Azmodan to represent all of the sins. He's fat to represent gluttony and greed, his piercings represent pride, and I guess his extra nipples represent lust? lolol. That's what they said in the lore summary anyway.
No no Daemaro, I read that they wanted Azmodan to represent all of the sins. He's fat to represent gluttony and greed, his piercings represent pride, and I guess his extra nipples represent lust? lolol. That's what they said in the lore summary anyway.
This, but he still has his captains for each sin.
Can't wait to see his Lust captainess oh wait, that's the Mistress of Pain (I think she was renamed wasn't she?) with a dozen legs and in need of dental treatment? Nevermind, then
I find this more believable actually because the angles were spawned as the essence of goodness, so how can one become evil? wouldn't that by definition kill the angel. You are a being of mater if you are set on fire (converted into energy) you die. That is something in the lore that bothers me. I can understand angles and demons becoming close to neutral, but not changing their very nature. (ps WILD SPECULATION!)
Well that's just not true. Angels aren't beings of good necessarily, and even if we assume the above ploy that Izual was a crazy double-agent, Inarius sure as hell fell and that is no ploy. Angels can fail.
I don't see why Azmodan can't be talking to Leah as a representative of humanity. Sure She didn't do anything, but humans did. The Horadrum (with some help) imprisoned the Evils and then mortal heroes banished them from sanctuary. With the worldstone gone the Humans are likely to become an even greater threat. Defying the aspirations of humanity would be more impressive in that circumstance. As a note here, I agree that it is probably her connection to Diablo, but it is worth noting that speaking to Leah could be explained fairly reasonably.
Not if we take a closer look at what Azmodan is really saying. The soulstone ploy was not even engineered by the Horadrim, they just carried it out, so he can't be referring to them when he says "one by one our brethren fell into your trap." What trap? The Horadrim ran alike like confused children trying desperately to trap the Three in their stones, and the Three won out eventially anyway.
Then comes the "I defy you" part. Once again, great job there Azmodan. Their order is dead, their power gone, their mission failed but you're making a statement on behalf of the demonic race.
Demons know that humans could pose a thread eventually, but they also know that right now everyone but 0.1% of the human population can be killed by simply looking at them. He's talking to somebody else.
1.It was made when Heaven had control of the Pandemonium and The World Stone (Long time ago).
-plausible, but somewhat unlikely.
2.It was made when Hell had control of the Pandemonium and The World Stone (long time ago).
-plausible, but somewhat unlikely.
The need to create a soulstone would not have existed prior to the discovery of Sanctuary, so that's not possible.
3.It was made during the events of the Sin War Trilogy.
-Very unlikely.
Everybody wanted to stay hidden from Inarius and/or Heaven at the time, and Bul-Kathos&team would have stopped anyone who tried to access it. It probably didn't happen here. The obvious need wouldn't have been known at this time either.
4.It was made during the Dark Exile.
-Plausible. It could have been some kind of backup plan, but I still doubt that. Other options would require Tyrael being corrupted in some manner.
This time frame also includes the point in time when the other stones were made, and represents the most likely window I think. Later than this and there are just no good candidates, earlier and it doesn't make any sense. That, and if we assume the Black Soulstone is related to the other Three it must have happened around here.
How did this happen? I don't know. It all depends really on Izual and how he was corrupted. I think it's possible he could have been a double-agent for Hell for some time in Heaven before "accidentally" getting trapped by Hell in the assault on the Hellforge.
(Interestingly, this also places his failed assault after the Sin War).
6.It was made by Baal in the end of LoD.
-plausible. Atleast when we think that both Baal and Mephisto were part of the masterplan of Diablo. But if they were not, this would not make so much sense.
Baal had like 2 seconds to do that before he died. It seems rather improbable, especially since the heroes would have found it. Once again makes Tyrael the villain.
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Also we should be thinking about how Leah and Cain got a hold of it. If we know that, then we could more easily determine how it was created.
For example, it seems unlikely that the black soulstone was created at Mt Arreat when/after the worldstone was destroyed, because then I can't think of a way for it to come into the possession of Cain. Perhaps it was delivered to them by an angel, but if that were the case then why wouldn't that angel then explain what it's for?
Actually, maybe that is the case. Now I'm thinking:
- it was delivered to them by an angel (similar to how the other soulstones were delivered to the Horadrim ages ago)
- it was passed down to them secretly through the Horadrim (but still delivered by an angel in the first place)
- they found it somewhere (it wouldn't be the thing that fell from the sky though, would it?)
- they made it themselves (how?)
Okay this really isn't getting us anywhere either.
Thanks Phrozen for all your clarification! I guess I was putting too much thought into the 'good' vs 'evil' aspect and I should look at it more like an angel can't become a demon, but their ideologies can align; more like an endless civil war than a cycle of opposites maybe.
I like the possibility that it is the fallen star, but it doesn't feel right for some reason. I want to think its a character, an emissary of some kind, although, they may bear the black soulstone(BSS) with them. If it is just the BSS that fell, then what is raising the dead? Would it's power alone be sufficient catalyst to cause the disruption in New Tristram? That just feels wrong.
I have been wondering, If we assume the star is on a side (either as a character or artifact) which side would it be on? The dead rising indicates a demonic influence, but if it is how we obtain the BSS then that might indicate something more angelic. As I wrote the above the thought occured that it might be a couple of beings locked in combat, but that is likely a stretch
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
- it was delivered to them by an angel (similar to how the other soulstones were delivered to the Horadrim ages ago)
- it was passed down to them secretly through the Horadrim (but still delivered by an angel in the first place)
- they found it somewhere (it wouldn't be the thing that fell from the sky though, would it?)
- they made it themselves (how?)
Well this is arguably even harder to speculate on than when it came from
I like the possibility that it is the fallen star, but it doesn't feel right for some reason. I want to think its a character, an emissary of some kind, although, they may bear the black soulstone(BSS) with them. If it is just the BSS that fell, then what is raising the dead? Would it's power alone be sufficient catalyst to cause the disruption in New Tristram? That just feels wrong.
Who knows? I'm not concinved the soulstone is the meteor though, for several reasons. The colors don't match up, Cain should reasonably be around to see it, and datamined info leads me to believe otherwise
[spoil]ZOltun Kulle seems to be related to it, as one event that involves him in act II that deals with him also deals with the Black Soulstone.
I still don't think he is talking to Diablo. During the Lore Panel it was really emphasized that Azmodan is fully aware of how big of a thread the mortals can prove to be, so I think he is generalizing, we read too much into it.
Well my earlier points still stand against that. And if he were just talking to Leah, where's the big spoiler? The white flash just becore he appears was pointed out to not be in the cinematic panel, so that seemst o be where they skipped material. What big information is being hidden is the cinematic is really just Azmodan talking to Leah?
Moreover is we analyze "our brethren" who is he talking to then? The Three + Andariel and Duriel? And if he is talking to Diablo then does that means he betrayed Baal and Mephisto, which imo is absolutely out of the qustion and I don't think I need to explain it further.
I would agree with you on that, but the Diablo theory seems very solid enough to me that I'm willing to question this. It is true that we see precious little scheming between the Three, regardless of what lore medium we study, given that they scheme with a fervor against everything and everyone else in the universe. Still, if we position the Black Soulstone as the key in a plot to merge the Great Evils into the Prime Evil somehow, that would be the one reason that could perhaps explain such behavior in Diablo towards his brothers.
Or maybe they were in on it, and Azmodan just thinks they were tricked. But nevertheless I do agree that this is a weak point of the theory.
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[spoil]Those portraits are not labeled 100% correct! The original portraits come in a big pack, not one by one with a name. It's a popular theory but there is a lot of speculation there, also that scene isn't in the beta I'd bet it was made with a sandbox. [/spoil]
I'm thinking this "Stranger" guy might actually be Tyrael or Imperius, as previously speculated. The key i think is the sword. Tyrael seems to have a new sword now, the Sword of Justice, as seen in the new comic, the statue at BLIZZCON, the miniturete etc. So i think this may be a plot point. As for him being Imperius, i think the sword in the cinematic on the first page of Cain's/Leah's book looks like his sword in the image from the lore panel. Maybe a slight reference to a plot point? Who knows...just keeping myself moist before release :Plol
Oh, and maybe when he gets his sword back, he turns back into an angel. Remember all those concept art showing a tripped out angel.
[spoil] Awww yeah check this out. Wait, I don't know how to put images in. Anyway, the quest icon on drjdredscythe's new site is Tyrael's sword! AWESOME!
Oh, and i think thats the butcher's cleaver thing as well (picked up from another thread) [/spoil]
I have always been curious about something, maybe it was answered in this thread and I didn't get it, but I still have the question all the same. The soul stones were originally given to the Horadrim to contain the Prime Evils as they were banished to Sanctuary correct? What point was there to actually destroying them? You are just removing their prison. I thought that perhaps this banishes them back to the burning hells, but as they are banished would it really? This would work all well and good if they actually were banished back, but now that the worldstone is destroyed there would be little stopping them from just walking back in. Black soulstone I got nothing so not even trying there.
I have always been curious about something, maybe it was answered in this thread and I didn't get it, but I still have the question all the same. The soul stones were originally given to the Horadrim to contain the Prime Evils as they were banished to Sanctuary correct? What point was there to actually destroying them? You are just removing their prison. I thought that perhaps this banishes them back to the burning hells, but as they are banished would it really? This would work all well and good if they actually were banished back, but now that the worldstone is destroyed there would be little stopping them from just walking back in. Black soulstone I got nothing so not even trying there.
The soulstones were all broken at some point or another and the prime evils corruption and influence began to leak out.
You can see this in all of the cases.
Diablo:
The Archbishop Lazarus was an ambassador from the Zakarum Church and an advisor to King Leoric. According to the manual to Diablo II - in the form of a letter from the Patriarch of Zakarum - Lazarus was the Custodian of Mephisto's Soulstone in Kurast sometime prior to his arrival in Khanduras. When Leoric set up court in the abandoned Monastery, Lazarus was lured into the monastery's depths by Diablo, where Lazarus proceeded to shatter the soulstone that imprisoned the Prime Evil. After Diablo failed to fully possess Leoric himself, Lazarus brought the King's son, Albrecht, into the labyrinth to serve as the mortal host for the Lord of Terror. After Leoric's death, Lazarus emerged from the Monastery and rallied the villagers into a mob to find Albrecht - but the treacherous Archbishop led them right into the lair of the Butcher.
Mephisto:
Mephisto finally managed to overcome the powers of the Soulstone that imprisoned him enough to influence and corrupt the local priesthood, known as the Zakarum. The Demon then had the priests work spells to shatter the Soulstone into seven shards, breaking the mystic seal and freeing the Lord of Hatred. Mephisto drove the six smaller shards into the left palms of six Zakarum archbishops who were then charged with bringing him nourishment in the form of human sacrifices while running their temple. The largest stone pierced the hand of the Que-Hegan, the highest divine authority of the Zakarum faith. It was this body that the Demon used as his manifestation on the mortal plane, warping the mortal’s form into an approximation of his true visage. For years the corrupted religious leaders of the Zakarum have kept Mephisto supplied with information and misguided followers to carry out his plans of conquest. He eventually met up with Diablo, and the two began to work to enslaving the human race. However, Mephisto was later killed by the same adventurers (or adventurer) that would go on to kill Diablo. Mephisto's Soulstone was destroyed in the Hellforge after his defeat, ensuring his banishment from Sanctuary.
Baal:
During the attempt to contain him inside a Soulstone, the stone was shattered and the largest remaining shard was not enough to contain the demon. Tal Rasha, a powerful mage of the Horadrim, volunteered to take on the role of an extended Soulstone and be sealed in a tomb to wrestle with Baal's spirit for all eternity. But Baal's spirit won over the mortal Tal Rasha, and was set free indirectly by his brother Diablo by Marius' intervention.
So because they were all broken they didn't work as intended, people were possessed and all they ended up doing was keeping the prime evils in Sanctuary in the end. As to why they destroyed them on the Hellforge I'm not really sure.
Oh I know that they were not at all useful in the way they were "intended." You pretty much get that vibe from Izual when you set him free. Well, that and all the events of Diablo I and II in general. Also leads to the question of why Baal wants his "broken" soul stone if he was free. You likely could argue there was still power of his in it, and also that it isn't ever found, but who knows how that is going to work out. I just can't figure out any good reason, and there doesn't seem to be any explanation, that you would want to destroy them.
I can see wanting to destroy them, or place them somewhere other than sanctuary because even in a case like Diablo's where it was buried under the ground for a long time, the corruption affected the outside areas of Tristram. I think even if they were tossed into the deepest part of the ocean there would be demonic fish coming out of the see or something.
As for why Baal would want his? I guess he didn't want it destroyed? He wanted it to be intact to anchor him in Sanctuary. The best way to protect that was to guard it himself since he was one of if not the strongest demonic being on Sanctuary at the time. Like you said who knows if it was found or not, I'd assume so, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference since Diablo is coming back.
I always assumed that the Prime Evils couldn't manifest their powers without the soulstones though. Since it was a ploy by Izual after he was corrupted by Diablo they made the soulstones which were to contain them but in reality it help the Primes manifest in the world no problem(basically like a shortcut past the Worldstone which wouldn't let them in Sanctuary in the first place). Like how Baal went from tentacle monster Tal'Rasha to regular possessed humanoid Tal'Rasha after his soulstone was taken. But when he got it again he was able to become like his brothers, maybe I'm just ranting.
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"The righteous shall fall before the wicked, and all of Creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell."
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I find this more believable actually because the angles were spawned as the essence of goodness, so how can one become evil? wouldn't that by definition kill the angel. You are a being of mater if you are set on fire (converted into energy) you die. That is something in the lore that bothers me. I can understand angles and demons becoming close to neutral, but not changing their very nature. (ps WILD SPECULATION!)
Also I was thinking that he black soulstone may in some whay be the source of the other soulstones either they were broken off, or they were modeled after this one.
I don't see why Azmodan can't be talking to Leah as a representative of humanity. Sure She didn't do anything, but humans did. The Horadrum (with some help) imprisoned the Evils and then mortal heroes banished them from sanctuary. With the worldstone gone the Humans are likely to become an even greater threat. Defying the aspirations of humanity would be more impressive in that circumstance. As a note here, I agree that it is probably her connection to Diablo, but it is worth noting that speaking to Leah could be explained fairly reasonably.
So basically, everyone, Izual, Tyrael, Diablo, Baal, Azmodan, everyone has be tricked by the soulstone plot. When in reality, it was all just a way to get the demons onto sanctuary so they could destroy humanity leaving "someone" with clean hands.
Not if we take a closer look at what Azmodan is really saying. The soulstone ploy was not even engineered by the Horadrim, they just carried it out, so he can't be referring to them when he says "one by one our brethren fell into your trap." What trap? The Horadrim ran alike like confused children trying desperately to trap the Three in their stones, and the Three won out eventially anyway.
Then comes the "I defy you" part. Once again, great job there Azmodan. Their order is dead, their power gone, their mission failed but you're making a statement on behalf of the demonic race.
Demons know that humans could pose a thread eventually, but they also know that right now everyone but 0.1% of the human population can be killed by simply looking at them. He's talking to somebody else.
The need to create a soulstone would not have existed prior to the discovery of Sanctuary, so that's not possible.
Everybody wanted to stay hidden from Inarius and/or Heaven at the time, and Bul-Kathos&team would have stopped anyone who tried to access it. It probably didn't happen here. The obvious need wouldn't have been known at this time either.
This time frame also includes the point in time when the other stones were made, and represents the most likely window I think. Later than this and there are just no good candidates, earlier and it doesn't make any sense. That, and if we assume the Black Soulstone is related to the other Three it must have happened around here.
How did this happen? I don't know. It all depends really on Izual and how he was corrupted. I think it's possible he could have been a double-agent for Hell for some time in Heaven before "accidentally" getting trapped by Hell in the assault on the Hellforge.
(Interestingly, this also places his failed assault after the Sin War).
Also makes Tyrael the villain.
Baal had like 2 seconds to do that before he died. It seems rather improbable, especially since the heroes would have found it. Once again makes Tyrael the villain.
From what?
For example, it seems unlikely that the black soulstone was created at Mt Arreat when/after the worldstone was destroyed, because then I can't think of a way for it to come into the possession of Cain. Perhaps it was delivered to them by an angel, but if that were the case then why wouldn't that angel then explain what it's for?
Actually, maybe that is the case. Now I'm thinking:
- it was delivered to them by an angel (similar to how the other soulstones were delivered to the Horadrim ages ago)
- it was passed down to them secretly through the Horadrim (but still delivered by an angel in the first place)
- they found it somewhere (it wouldn't be the thing that fell from the sky though, would it?)
- they made it themselves (how?)
Okay this really isn't getting us anywhere either.
I like the possibility that it is the fallen star, but it doesn't feel right for some reason. I want to think its a character, an emissary of some kind, although, they may bear the black soulstone(BSS) with them. If it is just the BSS that fell, then what is raising the dead? Would it's power alone be sufficient catalyst to cause the disruption in New Tristram? That just feels wrong.
I have been wondering, If we assume the star is on a side (either as a character or artifact) which side would it be on? The dead rising indicates a demonic influence, but if it is how we obtain the BSS then that might indicate something more angelic. As I wrote the above the thought occured that it might be a couple of beings locked in combat, but that is likely a stretch
Who knows? I'm not concinved the soulstone is the meteor though, for several reasons. The colors don't match up, Cain should reasonably be around to see it, and datamined info leads me to believe otherwise
[spoil]ZOltun Kulle seems to be related to it, as one event that involves him in act II that deals with him also deals with the Black Soulstone.
Well my earlier points still stand against that. And if he were just talking to Leah, where's the big spoiler? The white flash just becore he appears was pointed out to not be in the cinematic panel, so that seemst o be where they skipped material. What big information is being hidden is the cinematic is really just Azmodan talking to Leah?
I would agree with you on that, but the Diablo theory seems very solid enough to me that I'm willing to question this. It is true that we see precious little scheming between the Three, regardless of what lore medium we study, given that they scheme with a fervor against everything and everyone else in the universe. Still, if we position the Black Soulstone as the key in a plot to merge the Great Evils into the Prime Evil somehow, that would be the one reason that could perhaps explain such behavior in Diablo towards his brothers.
Or maybe they were in on it, and Azmodan just thinks they were tricked. But nevertheless I do agree that this is a weak point of the theory.
Oh, and maybe when he gets his sword back, he turns back into an angel. Remember all those concept art showing a tripped out angel.
Oh, and i think thats the butcher's cleaver thing as well (picked up from another thread) [/spoil]
Anyways we're sort of derailing this thread. [/spoil]
Ah nice! Hadn't seen that screenshot somehow.
Of course. I was thinking Izual's sword was Shadowfang for some reason.
The soulstones were all broken at some point or another and the prime evils corruption and influence began to leak out.
You can see this in all of the cases.
Diablo:
Mephisto:
Baal:
So because they were all broken they didn't work as intended, people were possessed and all they ended up doing was keeping the prime evils in Sanctuary in the end. As to why they destroyed them on the Hellforge I'm not really sure.
As for why Baal would want his? I guess he didn't want it destroyed? He wanted it to be intact to anchor him in Sanctuary. The best way to protect that was to guard it himself since he was one of if not the strongest demonic being on Sanctuary at the time. Like you said who knows if it was found or not, I'd assume so, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference since Diablo is coming back.