Ecutruin: Casual games all the time sounds really fun. For a day or two. Casuals dsnt play very offen and dsnt make the community thrive at all. What kind of players do you think sticks around for a very long time and why do they stick around? Killing people just for killing them sounds meaningless and idiotically boring. Even you will stop enjoying it i'm sure. Why go into a arena game where you get banners and achievements as rewards while you can PvE and get gear and sell it or build other characters? There is no PvP progression system at all that will make people stay and fight. Honestly, you can watch a movie while hitting someone and not being useful at all and still get rewarded even if you lose. How awsome is that? PvP will die fairly quickly no doubt. Fun wont become fun, fun will become uninteresting, boring and unsatisfying.
I think you're missing the main point here, Conax. Diablo 3 isn't a game focused around PvP. The focus of Diablo 3's development has been co~op PvM from the start and continues to be so. They are implementing PvP as a fun thing to do when you don't feel like grinding monsters. Since there is no way to get gear, levels, etc from PvP (as far as we know), there is NO incentive period to ONLY PvP. It is an extra, meant for entertainment and not progression.
This isn't a bad thing. It may seem like one to you or others that played Diablo 2 PvP competitively and feel like Blizzard took it away from them in Diablo 3. However, that just isn't true as Diablo 3 is a new game with new design goals. Its like complaining that Farmville doesn't let you invade players and kill their animals....its just not the intent of the game.
'' 12:48 AM - Friend: D2 = PVP now that being said their were a bunch of ppl like u who just farmed and stuff 12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is''
he's pretty damn right... »D2 didn't have alot of end game PVE content but there was alot of challenge in PVP in the sense that you could make many differents builds and then compare their strenghts with other players. You couldnt really compare your strenght with PVE content.
'' 12:48 AM - Friend: D2 = PVP now that being said their were a bunch of ppl like u who just farmed and stuff
12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is''
he's pretty damn right... »D2 didn't have alot of end game PVE content but there was alot of challenge in PVP in the sense that you could make many differents builds and then compare their strenghts with other players. You couldnt really compare your strenght with PVE content.
Not exactly true. In Diablo 2 you would frequently run into builds that couldn't make it past nightmare/hell due to various issues. This is what lead to the realization by many that Diablo 2 really didn't have much actual customization (many builds just weren't viable). In Diablo 3 they have Inferno for really testing your skills in PvM. In addition to this, you will have Arena PvP to test your builds against players as well.
'' 12:48 AM - Friend: D2 = PVP now that being said their were a bunch of ppl like u who just farmed and stuff
12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is''
he's pretty damn right... »D2 didn't have alot of end game PVE content but there was alot of challenge in PVP in the sense that you could make many differents builds and then compare their strenghts with other players. You couldnt really compare your strenght with PVE content.
Not exactly true. In Diablo 2 you would frequently run into builds that couldn't make it past nightmare/hell due to various issues. This is what lead to the realization by many that Diablo 2 really didn't have much actual customization (many builds just weren't viable). In Diablo 3 they have Inferno for really testing your skills in PvM. In addition to this, you will have Arena PvP to test your builds against players as well.
Depends on the player. I have never built a character in all the years of Diablo's lifespan that couldn't complete hell solo. Even going as far as taking it solo with 8 people in game. All depends on the player and gear for that build.
Also team arena PvP doesn't test anything. It is far to reliant on your team and ganking people to get a true understanding of what your build is actually good for beyond jumping someone. Also add in the fact that it will be plagued by unorchestrated teams who have no idea what they are doing or how to use their character. Makes for a pretty lack luster and boring mechanic. Yea it will "scale" with level and gear and skill, whoopty doo, I fight 4k+PP SSF4AE kids all the time and they blow just as bad as 500PP kids. Rank or scale doesn't mean jack, that is why private ladders dominate corporate ladders because the garbage simply can't hang.
Depends on the player. I have never built a character in all the years of Diablo's lifespan that couldn't complete hell solo. Even going as far as taking it solo with 8 people in game. All depends on the player and gear for that build.
Also team arena PvP doesn't test anything. It is far to reliant on your team and ganking people to get a true understanding of what your build is actually good for beyond jumping someone. Also add in the fact that it will be plagued by unorchestrated teams who have no idea what they are doing or how to use their character. Makes for a pretty lack luster and boring mechanic. Yea it will "scale" with level and gear and skill, whoopty doo, I fight 4k+PP SSF4AE kids all the time and they blow just as bad as 500PP kids. Rank or scale doesn't mean jack, that is why private ladders dominate corporate ladders because the garbage simply can't hang.
Well, looks like this game might not be for you... simple as that (at least in regard to PvP). I feel quite differently then you do about the proposed PvP system. For one, Team Arena will allow you to test your skill with your character skill. It lets you test your survival in a fast paced PvP environment. Sure, you may get matched up with people under your skill (thought not often if their system works well), but it doesn't mean you cannot understand your character enough to still do well.
Honestly, you need to stop being so full of yourself. You make comments constantly that you'll own everyone and are so awesome. There is no way for you to know how well you'll do in Diablo 3 PvP. You base your judgments on your experience with Diablo 2, while Diablo 3 is a different game, with different skills, different mechanics, and a whole new community of gamers. How about waiting and seeing if the PvP system turns out terrible before condemning it?
A game without a nice pvp is the same thing that a sand castle.
You can build it.
it can be nice.
but it means nothing.
Not every game needs to focus around PvP, so I cannot agree. That said, Blizzard's plans for PvP in Diablo 3 should give nice PvP. It sounds like a great way to jump into PvP, bash other players and come out of it having fun (regardless of win/loss).
Depends on the player. I have never built a character in all the years of Diablo's lifespan that couldn't complete hell solo. Even going as far as taking it solo with 8 people in game. All depends on the player and gear for that build.
Also team arena PvP doesn't test anything. It is far to reliant on your team and ganking people to get a true understanding of what your build is actually good for beyond jumping someone. Also add in the fact that it will be plagued by unorchestrated teams who have no idea what they are doing or how to use their character. Makes for a pretty lack luster and boring mechanic. Yea it will "scale" with level and gear and skill, whoopty doo, I fight 4k+PP SSF4AE kids all the time and they blow just as bad as 500PP kids. Rank or scale doesn't mean jack, that is why private ladders dominate corporate ladders because the garbage simply can't hang.
Well, looks like this game might not be for you... simple as that (at least in regard to PvP). I feel quite differently then you do about the proposed PvP system. For one, Team Arena will allow you to test your skill with your character skill. It lets you test your survival in a fast paced PvP environment. Sure, you may get matched up with people under your skill (thought not often if their system works well), but it doesn't mean you cannot understand your character enough to still do well.
Honestly, you need to stop being so full of yourself. You make comments constantly that you'll own everyone and are so awesome. There is no way for you to know how well you'll do in Diablo 3 PvP. You base your judgments on your experience with Diablo 2, while Diablo 3 is a different game, with different skills, different mechanics, and a whole new community of gamers. How about waiting and seeing if the PvP system turns out terrible before condemning it?
A game without a nice pvp is the same thing that a sand castle.
You can build it.
it can be nice.
but it means nothing.
Not every game needs to focus around PvP, so I cannot agree. That said, Blizzard's plans for PvP in Diablo 3 should give nice PvP. It sounds like a great way to jump into PvP, bash other players and come out of it having fun (regardless of win/loss).
Riiight different mechanics huh? Move, aim, zone...all apparent in EVERY game I play, including D2. Look at that...it is in D3 also...oh I guess I can't use games that use the same mechanics as a measure for how well I will do.
Ill "fluff" my ego all I want buddy, till you or anyone else here can take me down to your level, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Ive been around the gaming community and competitive gaming community for a long time, I can easily determine how well I will do in a game before it comes out.
Ill "fluff" my ego all I want buddy, till you or anyone else here can take me down to your level, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Ive been around the gaming community and competitive gaming community for a long time, I can easily determine how well I will do in a game before it comes out.
And it's statements exactly like this that make you lose all credibility.
Ill "fluff" my ego all I want buddy, till you or anyone else here can take me down to your level, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Ive been around the gaming community and competitive gaming community for a long time, I can easily determine how well I will do in a game before it comes out.
And it's statements exactly like this that make you lose all credibility.
OH NO! Not my forum cred! I really wonder what life would be like if I was to see it through your guys eyes. Just bow down and surrender to everything before even trying, having no faith or confidence what so ever. Must be a wonderful place. Oh well, ill just let my 20+ years of gaming experience talk for me, especially when PvP gets released and your the poor sucker who gets matched up against me. Have fun trying to use your PvM build against me ha, might find me a little harder then Diablo's AI buddy.
Can we stop making this stuff so personal? I know PvP is about as personal as you can get in a game but can't we all just get along.... at least on the forums?
Save the hate for the PvP arena/duels/whatever we end up with and just keep it a little more civil here please.
Arenas in general seem like they will be a blast. And I'll say I'd support custom matches (who against who, rather than your team against random) because that would be fun.
What I'm not against, but really could care less;
A showable PVP rating
Spectator mode
Replays
What I'm against;
PVP balance that hurts PVE in any way
PVP only gear and / or
Gear / skills that change in pvp or pve
Blizzard: " We do not want D3 to be an Esport, ever." (not the *exact* quote but I'm sure someone has posted it already) Kinda shoots down this whole thread right? I mean the discussion of making D3 into an Esport can and will always go on, but there's no point past trying to get a couple features in.
Personally? I'd take the arena and like it lol. The fact they are dedicating that much to PVP is awesome as it is=P
Edit; Here's the quote just in case: I know you don't plan to support Diablo 3 to be a eSport - If the commnunity wants it to become a eSport(without the implied balance), would you support it with replays/spectator mode and more ? JayWilson: No. We don't want Diablo 3 to become an E-sport. It's OK to have PVP just for fun. Our focus is on our PVE game, and we want it to stay there.
It even says right there, even IF the community wanted it, they aren't going to do it. /this damn thread already.
It even says right there, even IF the community wanted it, they aren't going to do it. /this damn thread already.
That quote from Jay a couple days a go settled it, we're not going to see replay or spectator features.
I mean, he could always say "if a huge part of the community wants it, we'll do it" like he said with RMAH for Hardcore or lootable corpses or even selling characters on the RMAH, but he straight up said "NO, we're NOT doing it" - so yeah, there's not much purpose in hoping for some features.
Arenas in general seem like they will be a blast. And I'll say I'd support custom matches (who against who, rather than your team against random) because that would be fun.
What I'm not against, but really could care less;
A showable PVP rating
Spectator mode
Replays
What I'm against;
PVP balance that hurts PVE in any way
PVP only gear and / or
Gear / skills that change in pvp or pve
Blizzard: " We do not want D3 to be an Esport, ever." (not the *exact* quote but I'm sure someone has posted it already) Kinda shoots down this whole thread right? I mean the discussion of making D3 into an Esport can and will always go on, but there's no point past trying to get a couple features in.
Personally? I'd take the arena and like it lol. The fact they are dedicating that much to PVP is awesome as it is=P
Edit; Here's the quote just in case: I know you don't plan to support Diablo 3 to be a eSport - If the commnunity wants it to become a eSport(without the implied balance), would you support it with replays/spectator mode and more ? JayWilson: No. We don't want Diablo 3 to become an E-sport. It's OK to have PVP just for fun. Our focus is on our PVE game, and we want it to stay there.
It even says right there, even IF the community wanted it, they aren't going to do it. /this damn thread already.
I think we can all agree, for the sake of argument, that the Diablo series has been a PvE-game series at it's core. I myself being a hardcore gamer and an e-sport enthousiast, cannot deny this. However what do I do believe is that Diablo II's open and unregulated PvP environment most certainly did contribute a whole lot to it's extreme longevity, as it allowed for a lot of creativity and it allowed the community to shape the PvP scene into what it wanted it to be.
For a large amount of people (call it the majority if you will, i perhaps have a different perspective) the 'hostility based pvp system' had a lot of negative side-effects. Though I myself did not experience it as such, as i was in the top echelon of Diablo players, I do believe that the hostility system was inherently flawed. The system did leave a hell lot of room for griefing and unfair play, which is something that should never be condoned. We should be able to conclude that then was then, and now is now. Systems that worked back then do not necessarily work now, especially since said systems were already flawed back then. So in conclusion of this particular subject, I personally feel that the hostility system did have it's perks (such as freedom of play, being capable of forming creative PvP formats, etc.), but those perks were definately overshadowed by it's downsides.
I myself being a very competitive player love E-sports, I love being as effective and powerful as can be and competing with people of comparable skill and dedication. However it is important that 'we' (my kind of player) accepts that not everyone is like us, and that such a competitive environment is actually considered to be 'not fun' by the majority of players.
On the subject of PvE vs. PvP. I stated that Diablo is at it's core a PvE game, but the option of creative PvP play vastly increases it's replayability, I think we can all agree on this being true. In that light I personally am delighted that Diablo III will NOT be an E-sport game, for i believe that the absence of the 'E-sport mentality' being the dominant mentality will open up a lot of room for creative and 'out of the box' play, all in the name of the great equalizer, fun.
In conclusion it is my deepest wish for Diablo III that each and every single one of us is given the opportunity by Blizzard (within certain boundaries) to create their own playstyle and play environment. Let the 'pros' be 'pro' and competitive among those of their own kind, and let the majority that does not want to be competitive all have their own individual environments that they all enjoy. The absence of the E-sports mentality as a guideline for game design should most definately facilitate this, and I hope that Blizzard will act accordingly. All in the name of fun, replayability and longevity.
I hope you all get the Diablo III you wish for.
<3
Good post. Pretty much what a few of us have been saying since the start. Sadly we keep being bombed by people who wish that you can only play the game their way or no way. They cite old quotes and cry resources, yet they apparently must be new to Blizzard's designing of games.
Crushing players in arenas gets old FAST. What we need are TEAM ORIENTED OBJECTIVE BASED PVP SCENARIOS. That's where the real shit is.
Arena will never work in this genre because it's very core is based on obtaining an imbalanced advantage (be it through team composition, gear, build).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
So you a person who has gone out of his way NUMEROUS time to talk bad about D2 PvP and stated NUMEROUS times that they didn't partake in D2 PvP and were there for the PvM, know all about the majority of PvP information..?
So tell me....how many "Players vs Monsters" threads and posts are there..? How many PvP post now? Also take note of what you just said "~10 years" after release...10 YEARS! It is still running to this day. The majority of the PvP players like me and Koda and well everyone else that was good are gone, and yet they still managed to get MULTIPLE ladders up and running and filled with 50 people. Why would you make a ladder with more then 50 people also? I have ran those ladders and I capped them out at 10, anything more was a huge time consumption as they can rapidly change.
Just do yourself a favor, stick to talking about Blizzards views, something you seem to know. Stay out of talking about PvP in D2 and stop trying to tell us what the majority did while you were getting help killing Baal.
Wow, resorting to insults yet again...way to prove your point. I've played D2 PvP. Specifically I PvP'd in Diablo 2 during its prime. Judging anything related to D2 by how its done now is absolutely stupid. Diablo 2 is way past its prime and many of the players (both PvM and PvP) have left for other games. During D2's prime is what matters as its more representative of the MAJORITY and the MAJORITY of PvP was done exactly how I stated.
In all honestly I think you've played D2 so long that you've become blinded to the fact that the world moved on. There are better games out now, with better ways of doing things. Hostility is a bad system as the only people it really benefits is griefers. Sure there are some legit uses but the majority of the time it will just be used for griefing (and that's even what you want it for). You aren't a majority at all.
Its evident by this forum and the fact that there aren't even enough PvP players posting in a PvP forum on the most popular Diablo 3 fansite to back you up. The reality is, you're wrong. The majority of the Diablo 3 community likes the new system and is glad that hostility is dead. They want dueling moved to Arenas so that they don't have to worry about people like yourself acting like a child and spamming them with duel requests. They want to enjoy the content be it PvM or PvP and Blizzard is giving them what they want.
Sure, you may be some hotshot player from D2 now.. but D2 is a shadow of what it was during its prime and those that still play it hardly represent a majority of the new community that is D3.
Ecutruin. i'm all about the pvp/arena features in both WoW and Diablo series. Although that ladder is a shadow of what it once was, one lesson could be extracted from that site's existence. PVPer are f*cking hardcore. With that said I argue a different point in that Blizz really needs PvP to sustain their games. Across all their franchises, pvp has boosted and in many cases sustained the game title. Even with the Diablo franchise, pvp kept the wheels turning. I played both ladder and serious pvp in D2. And guess what? Ladder IS PvP. It's all about the epeen mentality. You didn't win any items for being the top of the ladder, you got pvp spirit, pvp pride. That is what it's all about. To rid the game of ladder/pvp (i'm not saying Blizz is actually going to), you basically turned this game into Castle Crashers. Coop linear game with harder difficulties after you beat the game. Yes there is a small minority that will want to achieve completion of the higher difficulties, but those people will not bring in sponsors, and hype like pvp will for SC1, SC2, WoW: BC.
Give me team death match (most kills in an allotted time), team death match (with no respawn till the next round last man standing from either side wins round), capture the flag (rounds of who can bring a an opposing teams flag back to their own base), king of the hill (who can get most players on the hill for the longest), and free for all. Well be gravy for years if we can do these 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I think you're missing the main point here, Conax. Diablo 3 isn't a game focused around PvP. The focus of Diablo 3's development has been co~op PvM from the start and continues to be so. They are implementing PvP as a fun thing to do when you don't feel like grinding monsters. Since there is no way to get gear, levels, etc from PvP (as far as we know), there is NO incentive period to ONLY PvP. It is an extra, meant for entertainment and not progression.
This isn't a bad thing. It may seem like one to you or others that played Diablo 2 PvP competitively and feel like Blizzard took it away from them in Diablo 3. However, that just isn't true as Diablo 3 is a new game with new design goals. Its like complaining that Farmville doesn't let you invade players and kill their animals....its just not the intent of the game.
Why can't you play the game for what it is?
12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is''
he's pretty damn right... »D2 didn't have alot of end game PVE content but there was alot of challenge in PVP in the sense that you could make many differents builds and then compare their strenghts with other players. You couldnt really compare your strenght with PVE content.
Not exactly true. In Diablo 2 you would frequently run into builds that couldn't make it past nightmare/hell due to various issues. This is what lead to the realization by many that Diablo 2 really didn't have much actual customization (many builds just weren't viable). In Diablo 3 they have Inferno for really testing your skills in PvM. In addition to this, you will have Arena PvP to test your builds against players as well.
Also team arena PvP doesn't test anything. It is far to reliant on your team and ganking people to get a true understanding of what your build is actually good for beyond jumping someone. Also add in the fact that it will be plagued by unorchestrated teams who have no idea what they are doing or how to use their character. Makes for a pretty lack luster and boring mechanic. Yea it will "scale" with level and gear and skill, whoopty doo, I fight 4k+PP SSF4AE kids all the time and they blow just as bad as 500PP kids. Rank or scale doesn't mean jack, that is why private ladders dominate corporate ladders because the garbage simply can't hang.
You can build it.
it can be nice.
but it means nothing.
Well, looks like this game might not be for you... simple as that (at least in regard to PvP). I feel quite differently then you do about the proposed PvP system. For one, Team Arena will allow you to test your skill with your character skill. It lets you test your survival in a fast paced PvP environment. Sure, you may get matched up with people under your skill (thought not often if their system works well), but it doesn't mean you cannot understand your character enough to still do well.
Honestly, you need to stop being so full of yourself. You make comments constantly that you'll own everyone and are so awesome. There is no way for you to know how well you'll do in Diablo 3 PvP. You base your judgments on your experience with Diablo 2, while Diablo 3 is a different game, with different skills, different mechanics, and a whole new community of gamers. How about waiting and seeing if the PvP system turns out terrible before condemning it?
Not every game needs to focus around PvP, so I cannot agree. That said, Blizzard's plans for PvP in Diablo 3 should give nice PvP. It sounds like a great way to jump into PvP, bash other players and come out of it having fun (regardless of win/loss).
Ill "fluff" my ego all I want buddy, till you or anyone else here can take me down to your level, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Ive been around the gaming community and competitive gaming community for a long time, I can easily determine how well I will do in a game before it comes out.
And it's statements exactly like this that make you lose all credibility.
Save the hate for the PvP arena/duels/whatever we end up with and just keep it a little more civil here please.
Arenas in general seem like they will be a blast. And I'll say I'd support custom matches (who against who, rather than your team against random) because that would be fun.
What I'm not against, but really could care less;
A showable PVP rating
Spectator mode
Replays
What I'm against;
PVP balance that hurts PVE in any way
PVP only gear and / or
Gear / skills that change in pvp or pve
Blizzard: " We do not want D3 to be an Esport, ever." (not the *exact* quote but I'm sure someone has posted it already) Kinda shoots down this whole thread right? I mean the discussion of making D3 into an Esport can and will always go on, but there's no point past trying to get a couple features in.
Personally? I'd take the arena and like it lol. The fact they are dedicating that much to PVP is awesome as it is=P
Edit; Here's the quote just in case:
I know you don't plan to support Diablo 3 to be a eSport - If the commnunity wants it to become a eSport(without the implied balance), would you support it with replays/spectator mode and more ?
JayWilson: No. We don't want Diablo 3 to become an E-sport. It's OK to have PVP just for fun. Our focus is on our PVE game, and we want it to stay there.
It even says right there, even IF the community wanted it, they aren't going to do it. /this damn thread
already.
I mean, he could always say "if a huge part of the community wants it, we'll do it" like he said with RMAH for Hardcore or lootable corpses or even selling characters on the RMAH, but he straight up said "NO, we're NOT doing it" - so yeah, there's not much purpose in hoping for some features.
Arena will never work in this genre because it's very core is based on obtaining an imbalanced advantage (be it through team composition, gear, build).
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Ecutruin. i'm all about the pvp/arena features in both WoW and Diablo series. Although that ladder is a shadow of what it once was, one lesson could be extracted from that site's existence. PVPer are f*cking hardcore. With that said I argue a different point in that Blizz really needs PvP to sustain their games. Across all their franchises, pvp has boosted and in many cases sustained the game title. Even with the Diablo franchise, pvp kept the wheels turning. I played both ladder and serious pvp in D2. And guess what? Ladder IS PvP. It's all about the epeen mentality. You didn't win any items for being the top of the ladder, you got pvp spirit, pvp pride. That is what it's all about. To rid the game of ladder/pvp (i'm not saying Blizz is actually going to), you basically turned this game into Castle Crashers. Coop linear game with harder difficulties after you beat the game. Yes there is a small minority that will want to achieve completion of the higher difficulties, but those people will not bring in sponsors, and hype like pvp will for SC1, SC2, WoW: BC.