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  • 0

    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Silverchild

    Ratings are important, IMO. I mean, how do you measure your progress if you have no idea on how you are doing?

    They could do leagues like SC2 (and the matchmaking system is already there, and owned by blizzard too!) bronze/silver/gold, etc. It would at least be something. I believe Jay talked about "pvp level" in an interview.. that is pretty worthless. You know that eventually everyone is going to max it, then what?

    Sure, you want to have ratings to tell how strong you are. However, why must those ratings be public at all? Knowing your own ranking should be able to be enough to let you know how well you're doing. You don't need to know that you are better or worse then the random guy ya joined.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Conax

    Ecutruin: I'll explain alittle about my gaming background to get to the point as to why i want ratings and esports features. I've played more then most people in my life because i'm chronically sick. I've been pro/semi-pro on several games and i consider games today to be no challenge at all, i'm sure Diablo 3 wont be any different, atleast for me that is as these things comes natural to me. PvP is where the challenge is, esports feature gives you the sense of progression and improvement. Also, it leads to great communities with the same views as me and other hardcore players. Its not to boost egos, perhaps for you it is or others you've had contact with. Its for progression and improvement, from my point of view atleast. Its also a endless goal.

    If its about personal progression, then why do you need to know my rating? What is the need for public ratings?

    I am also curious as to why Diablo 3 needs to have these features. Especially when the developers specifically state they don't want them. There are plenty of game out there devoted to eSports already...Diablo 3 doesn't NEED to be another one. What is wrong with Blizzard just making the game they want to and you either enjoying it...or not and moving on?
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on Direct quote from Jay Wilson supporting PvP in Diablo 3
    Quote from Conax

    Ecutruin: i Guess blizzard just is plain stupid and ignorant then. I honestly Believe that the casuals Will eat up their own Words later on when they suddenly get bored of meaningless pvp. As adon says, to enjoy this kind of pvp, you must enjoy chasing lasers on the walls and floors. Just make npcs to fight instead of players, that way casuals can feel like a million bucks beating a useless, bad programmable npc if they want to have fun.

    So... enjoying the challenge of fighting other players in a Arena with matchmaking makes me stupid or something? What is the difference between Arena with ranking and Arena without ranking...except for the unneeded ego fluffing?... I'm sorry, I only see the lack of ranking as a positive thing.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Astrand

    I specificaly said game director or designer, because Bashiok as a community manager have made so many mistakes already, he can't be seen as a viable source of information anymore. He talk about random arena mode because this is the only part of PvP that we know about, and does not say there will not be a ranked mode, just as he doesn't talk about custom games in that quote. Ranked arena =/= eSport. It might be like you think, that there will be only random arena in the game, but they have never said something will not be done, ever. Other than designing eSport scene in Diablo 3 (and DOTA mode). This is precisely why we should debate on what we would like to see as parts of PvP in Diablo 3. Not what we won't see, because someone believe they said "no, never". I would like to see ranked mode and I already gave you solid arguments why it would add alot to the game. Your arguments "blizzard doesn't want", "people will cry", "majority doesn't want", "I'm the majority! I say no, because no!" and so on, bring absolutely nothing constructive to the debate other than your floating ego.

    And yet again I'll forward you to my signature. Fans have every right to complain for the sake of making the game better, and Blizzard expect that. They too want to make the game better, and they are not as ignorant as you make them to be, to not change their opinions on some matters, even if right now, they don't see a reason to do something.

    Ok, I think I said what I wanted to say. Gonna wait thoes few more hours for the release of awesome game, that I believe will be even better in time. See you when the PvP patch comes along, if you will still be interested in D3.

    http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Af6o7LvA5pA

    There.. right at the beginning Jay specifically states they are not doing a ladder mode. So.. strike against PvM ranking.


    There.. right at the beginning Jay specifically states that they will not have ranking in PvP. At most you will show the number of wins you have gotten. So.. strike against PvP ranking.

    There ya go.. evidence given. It seems like there will be no ranked mode in the game period. So, can we move past ranked? They've also stated no eSports, no spectator mode, and not replays. So pretty much all the main features used for a competitive scene have been stated as no~go. The only thing left is custom~games and as of yet they are undecided on them (though they have stated that the players are a good reason NOT to implement em).

    Its not like I pull my information out of thin air. Experience, research, and communicating with others.. I get my information from a wide array of sources. From such information I can honestly say that the majority of players do not want a competitive scene in Diablo 3. Blizzard seems to know this as well and are focusing away from that kind of PvP. I look forward to release of both PvM and PvP.. and expect I'll be playing the game for a rather long time.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Astrand

    Do you have any data to support that claim? No? I thought so.

    I dunno, the pile of people commenting that they are looking forward to it...seems to indicate as such.

    Quote from Astrand

    Quote from game director or designer that there will be no ranked mode arena?

    If you want to talk about what Blizzard or majority wants, provide us with source or stop trolling already.

    While we’re talking about PvP it’s probably worth reminding everyone that what we’re targeting is a very loose and ‘for fun’ system. Imagine clicking a button, being matched up against another team of equal skill and gear, and win or lose you move forward (although faster if you win) on a personal progression system that gives you some cosmetic recognition as you go. There won’t be ladders or leagues, we have no intent to expose team ratings, and very likely nothing besides a win/loss record to track performance etc. etc. etc. Anyone who has tried it at BlizzCon knows the PvP in Diablo III is a blast, but I’ve seen some people start to get ideas that it’s going to be an eSport, and that’s just not something we’re targeting – for the sake of our goals in the single player/co-op experience.

    I believe this was posted by Bashiok. Doesn't specifically state no ranking but does specifically state no leagues or ladders. Seems like I'm right in that they have no intention on supporting that style of play.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Astrand

    I'll answer that with my signature. We want the game to be a success, we want Blizzard to work on things to make the game better, so we will be "complaining" about you "complaining" about our "complaining".

    The game will be a success, it doesn't need features to allow people to fluff their ego in order to do so. Arena will offer a PvP system that the majority of players will enjoy immensely. Inferno offers a good PvM end~game that should remain challenging for the majority of players for many months. Hardcore Inferno is stated to be nearly impossible, offering an amazing challenge for those that really want a hard game.

    I don't see how features like ranking that exist purely to allow people to belittle others...really help make the game better. In fact, I'd argue that they make the game worse...Blizzard seems to agree as they have stated they will not implement em.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Adon

    You know this is an interesting response. One you have mimic'd about a million times now.
    I want to ask this question since you are so damn into what Diablo is about.

    What is Starcraft 2? Or hell Starcraft for that matter?
    • Esports game?
    • Multiplayer game?
    • Single player game?
    • Used map settings game?
    • Level designer game?
    There is no right answer. Any of those above can fully explain a great and fantastic way to play and enjoy Starcraft. Are any of them more right then the other? Are any of them more legit then the other? No. They all are very fleshed out communities within the game that support it and are a reason for its longevity. To ignore one of them would be a retarded move and to say you are more important is equally retarded.

    Starcraft 2 is actually two games in one, in a sense. It's a multiplayer eSport game, where balance is incredibly important. On the flip side, Starcraft 2 is a game engine for custom games. Both of these avenues were very important to developers as they developed the game and they are using the game engine side for their own mini~games (Blizzard Dota for instance).

    There is a clear difference between this design and the Design of Diablo 3. Starcraft 2 was intentionally designed to have a focus around both custom games and eSport balance. Diablo 3 was intentionally designed to have a focus around PvM with added PvP as an extra.

    Honestly, comparing Starcraft II with Diablo 3 isn't a very good comparison since StarCraft 2 isn't remotely the same game design as Diablo 3. You'd be better off comparing Diablo 3 to World of Warcraft as they resemble each other's design quite well and World of Warcraft is a PvM focused game with added PvP.

    Quote from Adon

    The same concept can be applied to Diablo. Now you bitch and moan and cry that you are the majority (Congrats, really!). You are so scared and hateful toward the minority that we are not even allowed to have a conversation with each other about mechanics or modes we would like to see in the game to benefit not only US, but EVERYONE.

    It is pretty ironic really, you bitch about the negativity that competitive gamers bring to the table, and yet your closed mindedness and elitist attitude toward how to play Diablo correctly is doing more damage then I have seen any elitist PvP'er do.

    Ill say it again, hostility was amazing, because it gave me the ability to handle someone like you in my game. You run your mouth and I could take care of it, no problem. Now? Now you are protected, just how you want it. And no, this isn't about griefing, it is about putting loud mouthed ignorant people in their place, see you in game buddy.

    There you go calling me scared, yet again. What do I possibly have to be scared of? Blizzard has stated that the game will be designed in a way that I actually really like. Why would I be scared of those that want competitive PvP?

    The reason I keep posting is because you aren't discussing feature suggestions, you're complaining that Blizzard isn't making the game the way you want. You specifically tend to lash out, harassing people who disagree with you and bash Blizzard for their decisions. That isn't discussing...

    If you want meaningful discussion, perhaps you shouldn't get so hostile. People aren't going to take you seriously when the moment they something that goes against what you want, you lash out at them.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on Direct quote from Jay Wilson supporting PvP in Diablo 3
    Quote from Conax

    Ecutruin: interesting that you say that my argument about their snows system isnt a viable one because they dont want to Balance 2 different parrts of the game so to speak. Then, why develope this system? Right there you've Lost the argument because im sure it took time and budget to produce it. They've Said its easy and smooth for them, all they have to Do is numbercrunch abit and they can get Fair Balance with fairly Little developement and budget. snows is there for a reason. Balance is no longer a viable argument against why they shouldnt create competetive features and modes.

    Actually, I haven't lost anything. They implemented snow in order to allow them to tweak both PvM and PvP (it's not only for PvP), and they plan on using the PvP side specifically to tweak the duration of disables. Balance still remains a good reason to not support more competitive PvP actually. To balance all abilities, they would have to keep a team specifically dedicated to balancing the various abilities and all the combinations specifically for PvP. Its something the developers themselves do not want to devote their time on and that is perfectly understandable.

    Quote from Conax

    They even have a finished competetive mode, lms, which they can go back to easily without consuming budget or time. Blizzard is ignoring a huge playerbase for the other playerbase. Why cant we have both? Casuals wouldnt be effected but the Community would grow and add more excitement. Im sure buying a pizza while spectating pros duking it out would be absolutely Amazing. It's a shame they deny us that Amazing, growing and awsome Community. I love watching a Good game with friends drinking a couple of beers and eating Good food. Even my gf who dsnt even play sc2 enjoys watching the big games. This Community brings People closer, sharing awsome progress and moments with your friends and be able to show those moments is awsome. Something that is also denied.

    Honestly, I don't generally see that kind of community grow out of highly competitive PvP. Competitive play usually leads to aggression and as such tends to breed a negative community. I won't say that such situations don't happen, but the overall effect is generally negative in my experience.

    As for them having a finished competitive mode...this is the first I've heard of it. They don't have a hostility or duel system in the game, they don't even have Arena finished and implemented yet. So, what is this mode you talk about?

    As for why you cannot 'have both', perhaps because the developers DO NOT WANT their game focused around PvP. We are getting PvP, however, it is not designed to overshadow the PvM as the PvM is the focus of the game. Its a more casual PvP experience that allows people to enjoy killing other players in between Inferno attempts. Just because its a more casually focused system, doesn't make it bad. It may make it something you're not interested in...but quite a bit of the community IS interested in it.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Conax

    As i Said, they can put npcs Into the arena that People can fight against and have their fun, if its so fun having pointless pvp. There is nothing in their current systems that brings meaning to pvp. Anyway this discussion is going in circles. You want a casual aproach while i want both. No real argument against why not getting both. It's just lame and bad excuses. "its Hard to Balance" fuck that, you have your system called snows. "it brings a worse Community" fuck that, we are the Community and the Ones that brings People builds, guides etc. "we dont want to Do it" yeah because blizzard is ignorant. All these arguments i've seen over the last months are not reasonable nor a Good explination. ignorance, incompetence, casual play. Bah. The games People create today is pure crap compared to before. Every 9 year old kid must be able to play so lets cater it to that and not Good standards to allow People to adapt and learn.

    You have yet to explain WHY you need some means to fluff your ego in order to have fun...why?


    As for the reasons they have stated...the developers choosing not to develop two games (PvM and PvP) makes perfect sense. In order to balance PvP on its own, it would require an entire team devoted to balance specifically for PvP. This is not something Blizzard's developers wish to do. They want to focus their resources on PvM and continue to add awesome content. They want to put their resources towards the part of the game they feel is the central design.. PvM. How is that a bad thing?


    Quote from Astrand

    Don't worry Conax. It might be good that PvP patch will not be available at release and we have not much info about it yet. They need to tell the public what needs to be told to sell boxes even to 9y olds that cry when bullied in a video game. Casuals will move on to something else in few months and then they will cater to more demanding fans, so they can keep profit from RMAH.

    I think you really underestimate the PvM community. I have a feeling that even the casual players will be playing this game for six months to a year. That is the completely casual player. Anyone that is actually a fan of the Diablo series will likely stick around for a few years as they try to complete Inferno with multiple characters, perfect their gear, get achievements, etc.

    This isn't even considering the hardcore PvM players...

    I'm sorry, but you're not likely to see Blizzard just change their stance on things. At most, they will offer private Arenas (without spectator or replay)...but you may already see that with the PvP patch (though I kinda hope not). The developers themselves do not want to turn Diablo 3 into a PvP focused game, so I highly doubt the community is going to change that. Especially when people have been complaining since the announcement and they have continued their path regardless.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Conax

    I read abit of your post. Well you say that we get pvp but pvp is all aboout coompetition. They might aswell replace players with npcs at this Point. Becuase what they Do is making pvp meaningless. Saying otherwise is to be ignorant. We dont get pvp. Casuals get their piece of the cake, where is ours?

    as to your experience, you dont have insight in what others want other then the friends you have etc. I've played tons since the beginning and i Only infact enjoyed pvp and building retarded characters that would own the mainstream builds. your experience and mine can Only go so far. What is and what isnt it what matters. Casual casual and no hardcore except pve, inferno, that Will be cleared fairly quickly. Then there is nothing that can keep the hardcore People playing.

    I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. Just because Blizzard isn't adding ranking, and eSport features...somehow it's not PvP? I'm sorry, but that just isn't right. By definition, PvP is Player vs Player...and that is what Arena is. Just because you do not get added features to allow you to fluff your ego...doesn't make it a bad system.

    As for my experience....I'd say research, play experience, talking to various people, etc...at least gives me a decent insight into the issue. The main thing is...I feel this need to have some means to put down other players is negative and not something we need in the game. I think the system Blizzard is building is a good design that promotes PvP play without promoting harassment.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Conax

    Ecutruin: i love the fact that you sound all knowing, even statistics blizzard cant get. It's funny because when adon says it goes both wys you're unwilling to accept that it actually does. It just shows how deeply down you are as a blizzard fanboy. You Only use their Words to counter ours, you have no argument of your own that actually has meaning. It gets abit tiersome when People are preaching things when they clearly have no idea about statistics or what People did. Anyway i'll probably ignore you in the future because you and i disagree in Everything. You say you enjoy pvp but you talk like you cant pvp or enjoy it. Much like my gf really Only that she understands the Point of giving the hardcore People the Tools they need to enjoy the game as much as the other playerbase, but you refuse to realise that and preach that blizzard is right in all their thoughts and opinions.

    you need to see that there is a need for both parts. As you Said without knowing at all, alot of People pvped and pved. Then that means that its 50/50 according to your useless statistics. Yeah, i Believe People loved d2s non excistant story and awsome boss farming. They didnt Do it for other reasons at all.

    You're missing a key factor here, Conax. Blizzard's own developers don't want the features you guys seem to want. Why do you somehow deserve something that the developers don't even want to implement? Its like expecting FarmVille to implement PvP with a full combat system, just because you want it. It's just not the direction the developers want to go with the game.

    As for the need for both parts...we are getting both PvP and PvM. Sure, they are focusing their balance and development primarily on PvM, but that doesn't mean their PvP system will be bad. Just because there isn't some ranking system for people to fluff their ego, doesn't make the system bad.

    Now, about my statistics... I played a lot of Diablo 2, both during its prime and towards the end. So, the statistics I have aren't out of nowhere...they are based on my experience with the game. However, the statistics don't really matter in the end...Blizzard has made it clear that their primary development focus will be PvM...pretty much end of story.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Adon

    Ha ok, so you are boasting that a game primarily developed for its robust and terrific PvM has its community matched by an inferior shallow mechanic right?

    Now imagine if that shallow inferior mechanic was given a little bit more depth, a little more opening toward new players, a little more exposure...you think your robust PvM that is only evenly matched with the shallow inferior mechanic will still compete when it is also a robust mechanic?

    The correct answer is, who the hell cares. Obviously there are players who enjoy both a great amount. To limit one for the other is a dumb idea. Especially when 1 community takes care of themselves and only require so very little ha.

    You see it as a dumb idea, while Blizzard (and others in their community) see it as the developers wanting to focus on developing what they enjoy developing (the PvM). Just because that means the game doesn't cater to your play~style specifically, doesn't make it a dumb idea. Blizzard doesn't make decisions like these without research either. They obviously know they can keep the game alive without a highly competitive PvP environment...

    Yes, PvM is evenly matched with PvP still after 12~ years of Diablo 2's life. Considering many of those people still grinding PvM after all this time have beaten the story...a couple hundred times?...seems pretty amazing that PvM is still going that strong. I'm confident that Diablo 3's PvM crowd will be the majority...for a few years at least. Sure, many will PvP for fun occasionally...but that doesn't mean their focus will be PvP. Just like many players I knew in Diablo 2 did PvP on occasion...but it wasn't their focus.

    Diablo has always been a game about diving through dungeons, killing the minions of hell...
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on Direct quote from Jay Wilson supporting PvP in Diablo 3
    Quote from Adon

    In a game like Diablo, they would have to come up with a ton of PvM content to replace the PvP longevity for people. It would have to be pretty intense and interesting. Something that end game Diablo so far has failed to do. We will have to wait and see how Inferno plays out but from what I have seen it is just the same old crap just monsters take longer to kill. You might have to be a little more careful, but you can always outgear and outsmart the AI in a game like Diablo.

    I disagree that they need a ton of PvM content to replace PvP longevity for a lot of people. Sure, the PvP focused players won't care to grind the PvM game a ton beyond beating the game with a couple characters maybe. However, the people that actually buy Diablo 3 for PvM will likely keep playing for a couple years...just off the initial content offered.

    Blizzard stated that the randomization of the world increases after the Skeleton King, which means each play~through will be different. They have Inferno which will challenge the players. They have hardcore, when combined with Inferno will offer a near~impossible challenge (from what we've been told).

    The game has enough challenge to keep people playing a long time...without PvP. The kicker is...they are adding PvP on top of all that. Sure, they are focusing such PvP away from eSports. However, this new design is actually getting people interested in PvP that wouldn't have PvP'd in Diablo 2. So, it seems that they will get more replay from their average users then they would otherwise.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on A pvp debate
    Quote from Adon

    All of my years of experience on Diablo and the countless amount of people I met along the way disprove your argument A. It is just as Conax says, people PvM'd to level and get gear, so they could PvP.

    Now obviously everyone plays the game for different reasons, everyone has a different experience. There is no 1 right way to play Diablo. So to discredit how we saw the game or how we played the game is just plain retarded. You and even Blizzard have no actual data determining what was the reason D2 lasted as long as it did(does). They could possibly and this is a long stretch, have data seeing how many PvM games vs Duel games there are, but to what end those PvM games are is data that is impossible to achieve. Not to mention the countless private duel games and the private PvM games which would skew all of the data to a drastic margin.

    Bottom line of this story, don't look like an ass and preach baseless lies as facts.

    From my experience, it went both ways. There wasn't a majority that PvM'd purely to PvP even in the last few years that I played. Some did go for PvP, sure...but many also did it just to level, get gear, and overcome challenges. So, from my experience there was as many or more people playing PvM just to enjoy PvM (cannot account for private matches).

    This is at the END of the game's life, when the majority of players had played through the story an extensive amount of times. So the fact that PvM players matched PvP players in numbers...means that Blizzard is fully justified in focusing Diablo 3 on PvM... If Blizzard can achieve those results via PvM still with a game that is 12~ years old...imagine what they can achieve with a new game.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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    posted a message on Direct quote from Jay Wilson supporting PvP in Diablo 3
    Quote from Conax

    They have a system called "snows" that makes them able to tweak spells for lets say pvp without chaning its function or damage in pve. So there is no real reason to say that they dont want to Balance it because it Will effect pve. Thats kind of bullshit from their part. Balance isnt an issue, they can still tweak the spells for pvp without effecting pve. Whats the argument against that?. Being lazy or just dont want to i assume. Ignoring competetive pvp is just lame. btw, i wrote it all from my phone so its not well written. Anyway, if they dont Bring something Good for pvp in the patch then i Think alot Will quit after playing the story. A big game like this should be all it can be and support competetive players just as well as casual players.

    I Believe if any1 can pull off Amazing pvp its blizzard. they just dont want to, simple as that. And because of that the longevity of the game Will be massively shortened. Sad.

    Yes, they have "snow" that allows them to balance PvM and PvP separately (to a degree). The reason they are not doing so is because continually balancing PvP costs a lot in development resources and time. The developers do not want to balance two games like that. The developers themselves want to focus their development on PvM, end of story.

    It really shouldn't be an argument, as the game's developers specifically do not want to do it...

    It doesn't make the game worse because they want to focus on the core of the game (PvM). It just means we're likely to see regular PvM content updates. We'll probably see an expansion within a year. They don't need PvP to maintain longevity, if they can keep coming up with PvM challenges to overcome...and it seems they will do just that.
    Posted in: PvP Discussion
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