It's hilarious that you cry about a bot that can tops 10b xp/h yet you let the whole 500b xp/h speed rift problem slip by. The botters MAY have better items, but you can't do anything to competete against the perma 4 man party speed grift. When there's 1k paragon of stats of difference, there's no ladder.
Cap paragon at 800 for Seasons. Resolve the Bot problem, and MAYBE you will have a competitive ladder.
Solo bots from what I've read are getting up around 40b/hr atm, some higher some lower. And there are definitely party bots working properly as well, yielding excellent exp. I'm sure it's not as high as playing with actual people, but actual people usually can't play 24/7.
I doubt they will deal with the bot problem, cause it's not something that's just come up. People have been doing it since season 1. And i am sure blizzard has stats and can see that there's something funny about someone playing 20-24hrs/day, everyday for the whole damn season. So yea, they would have done something if they really wanted to.
I just hope they put a cap on paragons next season. That should go a long way in leveling the playing field.
it is only me that, after having tried shortly THUD, have decided that it is useful but nothing essential?
Being able to see all your buffs, finding dead ends before actually discovering, plotting out pylons ahead of time, seeing the actual buff timers are all pretty substantial.
Not to mention seeing timers on things like frozen, and clear circles of what not to stand in.
Let's be honest here.
The vast majority who try to discredit this open letter are botters themselves, or are trying to cover someone else's ass.
There seems to be a fairly large army of botters who are about to shit their pants, and are now trying, rather obviously, to do whatever they can to re-direct everyone's attention.
Just let it go
You've lost.
I have no idea where is this nonsense coming from.
Most opposing points in this thread are completely legitimate, with the main emphasis on a lame attempt to separate cheaters in two different barrels (good and bad).
As it was stated before the whole point of this approach is meaningless, its just the same as gathering of five social activists near the government building to scream: "Enforce the legal punishment for bribery amongst policemen".
But ok, let us accept the fact that people want to go out with a social initiative and try to stand for their cause. Why do they only care about "bribery amongst policemen" and completely ignore the "bribery amongst senate members"?
Best regards,
R1 Legit Hardcore player, which does not approve this letter.
Let's be honest here.
The vast majority who try to discredit this open letter are botters themselves, or are trying to cover someone else's ass.
There seems to be a fairly large army of botters who are about to shit their pants, and are now trying, rather obviously, to do whatever they can to re-direct everyone's attention.
Just let it go
You've lost.
And here is this ridiculous crap again. "Oh you are against the death penalty? You must be a murderer!"
This isn't an argument, it's childish nonsense. Lots of legit players are dissenting from this "community" letter (myself included) for some very good reasons.
1) Reported, and be glad you can hide behind a layer of anonymity on the internet, as your first sentence is quite the threat.
2) If you know of a better representative, please, by all means, come forth.
I get it, you're likely a botter. Keep it to yourself.
Thank you. as to 1) that you're fandom of the technicality and again, an inflated sense of your importance. It was not a threat, simply a statement. 2) As you quoted, a 'better' representative of the community would be an OPEN signature letter (where anyone can sign, not just you and your clique), which would be more well written than your current closed letter.
As to your third statement, I've never botted, nor do I keep botters on my list. I've never been banned or suspended for using any kind of exploit/bot/hack/hud, because I don't use them. I program, I enjoy coding, and I know the trials and tribulations that face any program that emulates a person playing a game. I'd go into more detail, but I don't think you'd understand most of the jargon.
The fact that you accuse me of being a botter could also indicate your condescendence towards the general community of D3. That because someone has a different opinion than yours, and disagrees with your motives behind doing something, and claiming to represent the D3 community as a whole, is met with condescendence and arrogance, that shows me, and other intelligent people that you either cannot defend your position, or that there are ulterior motives for doing it.
So again, Thank you.
Community Manager
Posts: 2,761
The integrity of Diablo III is incredibly important to us, and we are dedicated to ensuring the game remains a safe and fun environment for everyone. If you have knowledge of a possible exploit, hack, bot, or scam, the best way to inform us is by emailing our hacks team at hacks@blizzard.com or by completing the Hacks Report web form. In your correspondence, please include any steps necessary to replicate the issue, as well as any additional details you’re able to provide. We also ask that you refrain from posting information or instructions on how to use potential exploits on the forums.
We take reports of any potential exploit, hack, bot, or scam very seriously – and while not every reported exploit we look into turns out to be a real concern, we appreciate everyone’s help in keeping us informed of possible issues as they arise.
I kinda question how "incredibly important" this is to Blizzard, their dedication to the matter, and how "very seriously" they handle reports of all of these well known exploits, hacks and bots.
Seriously? Where is that vocal minority that disagrees about botting being negative? I only see a vocal majority wondering how you strive to prosecute one "crime", yet turn a blind eye on another, which equally destroys that what you claim to seek.
Why don't you openly discuss THUD and your position about it instead of hushing that up and calling people trolls?
I'm just going to quickly address two points that come up quite a lot:
1) "What about TurboHUD".
TurboHUD and bots are two different issues, and they're treated differently by Blizzard. This includes about how they respond to those issues on the forums, and the history of account actions taken. Our letter and this thread is about botting. I don't think there are two different opinions about bots (unless you're a botter), something you cannot say about other issues. Therefore, please keep TurboHUD and other things out of this message, as it makes the issue more blurry and might result in a vague response. If we put the spotlight on one very specific issue and the community speaks as a whole, chances are significantly higher to get a strong response (i.e., hopefully *action* and not just *words*).
2) "Some people on the list have done X and shouldn't be allowed to sign it".
I guess those people on the list are the streamers. They're often being called out for exploiting, botting, or other violations of the ToS (I am not including TurboHUD here and refer to point 1) - keep it out of this thread). However, when they use exploits they usually do this to force Blizzard to act against it (example: blood shard exploit). On the other hand, all people on this list, especially the streamers, have a history of speaking up publicly against botting. Look at it this way: with this letter we are urging Blizzard to act. We are reminding them of their EULA and asking them to take action against those who violate the rules of the game. Why should anyone who is playing this game competitively violate those rules and then join an open letter which will eventually jeopardize their progress?
It's okay to have your own opinion and you're free to express it in this thread. But please do refrain from accusations for which you have no proof, and keep this thread on topic (the botting issue). Those are my only two requests, thanks.
please explain why the letter isnt about cheating. everything about the letter applies to cheating, yet you guys purposefully limit it to botting. even in this forum/thread, you moderators keep trying to exclude other types of cheating. if you want to limit something for clarity, then why stop at botting in general? why not cherrypick the most popular botting software and offer specific ways and methods for blizzard to detect that one program? then rinse and repeat for the other popular programs. No, you guys kept it broad with botting in general. logically, you should widen it to cheating in general.
i don't make any accusations against specific players, but it definitely feels like this letter does not include other cheats (like turbohd) to protect signees who use them.
please explain why the letter isnt about cheating.
Because then Blizzard's reply would be to simply list the recent actions they have taken against cheaters (eg., blood shard exploit and Hellfire exploit). Thread closed, our letter would be meaningless. They DO ACT against cheaters. What they do not act against are
1) Botters
2) THUD.
Again, I listed often enough in this thread why THUD was not part of the letter, I'm not going to repeat it, read the previous posts in this thread. That leaves us with what? Yeah, exactly. Botting. The last known banwave against botters was very early on this year, which was actually even when botting didn't have that large impact on gameplay yet. Since then, the number of botters is constantly increasing, up to a point where botters publicly admit that they bot and even say it's because Blizzard doesn't act.
Making a generic letter about "please address cheating" would be absolutely pointless. Note, however, that we point Blizzard to their EULA and by enforcing that it would also mean action against all the other cheats you rightfully mention.
Like mentioned before, THUD and other such advantages are not mentioned because none of the signees would be able to sign it without looking foolish. I agree with most points that THUD is a much bigger advantage that botting in getting a leaderboard spot. Seeing pylons ahead of time and mob density (along with the convenience of of seeing debuffs on the ground) is a big advantage over having just the vanilla UI.
To say you want a competitive leaderboard for players who work hard and not mention TurboHud because you are trying to keep the letter from being "vague" is just an excuse. The reason is that none of the users could sign it even though THUD gives a much edge to these users that botting gives to botters.
Botting is hurting the game as well and I agree it should be taken care of, but in regards to fair and competitive leaderboards for players who work hard the real problem is actually THUD.
Just because thud ads better functionality to diablo 3 hud even without the cheats doesn't mean its not a cheat anymore.
You still have an advantage over others, which itself is cheating, not to mention it lets you see stuff you shouldn't even if can turn that off the fact it's possible doesn't make it any less worse.
I definitely hope they deal with thud users also, and in my opinion you cheat you're out, zero tolerance.
If you deal slow with cheaters and even don't hand out permanent bans then why should people take you seriously at all as game dev, they will just continue forever.
If I follow this logic, then Blizzard should ban every addon user in WoW, because addons give huge advantage to users.
Don't compare add ons from wow to turbohud, turbo hud is a third party app not allowed according to eula.
Add Ons are scripted lua files that you put in the addon folder that wow reads, and wow dev team decides what kind of control addon is able to do, they can limit addon functionality or increase it whenever they wish, and it doesn't allow things that aren't allowed.
THUD is just the example to make a point, namely:
The letter should have been about cheating in general, and yes I think people are absolutely right when they say the fact it's not is hypocritical.
Exactly my thought, its like they are saying plz ban botting cos its unfair, but plz do nothing against turbohud because i actually use to gain advantage. they strongly stated in eula any form of automatic play or even data mining is against the eula, that diablo 3 needs huds improvements oke but to use that to justify use of turbohud is dumb, you use it i hope you are already marked for a perm ban, lets take any other gamedev they do not care how bad the cheat is if it gains you small or huge advantage, you get perm ban anyway, you knew what you where doing and you know the risks of getting caught, this aplies to any kind of cheating botting included, zero tolerance aka you get caught perm ban no exceptions.
Exploits can be argue'd about should be considered per case basis, but any kind third party app big no no.
please explain why the letter isnt about cheating.
Because then Blizzard's reply would be to simply list the recent actions they have taken against cheaters (eg., blood shard exploit and Hellfire exploit). Thread closed, our letter would be meaningless. They DO ACT against cheaters. What they do not act against are
1) Botters
2) THUD.
Again, I listed often enough in this thread why THUD was not part of the letter, I'm not going to repeat it, read the previous posts in this thread. That leaves us with what? Yeah, exactly. Botting. The last known banwave against botters was very early on this year, which was actually even when botting didn't have that large impact on gameplay yet. Since then, the number of botters is constantly increasing, up to a point where botters publicly admit that they bot and even say it's because Blizzard doesn't act.
Making a generic letter about "please address cheating" would be absolutely pointless. Note, however, that we point Blizzard to their EULA and by enforcing that it would also mean action against all the other cheats you rightfully mention.
I mean, the very fact that there have been known ban waves against botters means that they do in fact act against botters (just not as regularly as we would all like). By your logic, since no known action has been taken against THUD, the letter should focus SOLELY on that instead.
So many people arguing that THUD should be a part of this Open Letter. To me it is like one group saying the window is a square, while the OP was arguing that the door is a rectangle. A meaningless, pointless strawman debate because neither side is wrong.
Botting *is* an issue. The fact that THUD is also an issue is not at debate, of course it is. Pointing that out does not invalidate the case for arguing against Botting. People complaining so much about why THUD is not a part of this particular campaign (regardless of how right or wrong they are about which issue is bigger) should divert the energy they are putting into this thread into creating their own open letter about THUD, if they feel that strongly about it. no one is stopping you. Heck, probably some of the people involved in the Botting Open Letter would be happy to be apart of that protest too.
ps. for what it is worth, I dislike the idea of botting worse than THUD simply because I find something perverse about the idea of buying a computer game then getting a computer program to play it for you. That seems really whack to me and at that point I think it ceases to be a game.
So many people arguing that THUD should be a part of this Open Letter. To me it is like one group saying the window is a square, while the OP was arguing that the door is a rectangle. A meaningless, pointless strawman debate because neither side is wrong.
Botting *is* an issue. The fact that THUD is also an issue is not at debate, of course it is. Pointing that out does not invalidate the case for arguing against Botting. People complaining so much about why THUD is not a part of this particular campaign (regardless of how right or wrong they are about which issue is bigger) should divert the energy they are putting into this thread into creating their own open letter about THUD, if they feel that strongly about it. no one is stopping you. Heck, probably some of the people involved in the Botting Open Letter would be happy to be apart of that protest too.
ps. for what it is worth, I dislike the idea of botting worse than THUD simply because I find something perverse about the idea of buying a computer game then getting a computer program to play it for you. That seems really whack to me and at that point I think it ceases to be a game.
its just weird that THUD wasnt included and that bagstone and other mods are actively discouraging it from being discussed. i agree that botting is the greater evil when compared to THUD, but THUD is still pretty major. cheating in its entirety is the greatest evil, so why make a letter complaining only about botting?
the signees of this open letter put the effort into it because they see themselves as having greater influence in the diablo community than the average joe. that much is true. mods of reddit have a louder voice than other redditors. streamers and people who make videos have a louder voice too (at least videos with more than a handful of views).
i disagree with the LEADER stuff, but thats irrelevant. because they have more influence, it would mean a lot more for them to campaign against THUD than the average joe. it would make the MOST sense to include THUD into the botting letter to have it encompass both, but it would likely be hypocritical for some of the signees. therefore, the best course of action would be for the few TRULY legit influential and public players to campaign against THUD, botters, and cheaters in general.
"Our letter and this thread is about botting. I don't think there are two different opinions about bots (unless you're a botter), something you cannot say about other issues."
For someone who is preaching to stay on topic and avoid the name calling and accusations, I would say to read what you yourself wrote. You leveling accusations like that (twice in this thread in 2 separate comments ) is better in exactly what way ? How is it justifiable in your eyes to call anyone in this thread a botter ? What proof do you have ?
You mention people leveling accusations against signatories of the open letter. You ask what proof there is of that, well, open admission from at least 2 of them have been quoted in these last 10 pages. There have already been posts detailing accounts of botting/ account sharing/ turbohud using by several of your signers. However I guess that is something we can overlook because they are internet stars and we are not.
Meanwhile by your own words those of us calling for ALL CHEATERS to be punished "are defending our botting". I have to say that is disappointing especially coming from you.
Im pretty sure that all on the top of the solo leaderboards would say THUD got more impact than botting on their ranking.
I doubt they will deal with the bot problem, cause it's not something that's just come up. People have been doing it since season 1. And i am sure blizzard has stats and can see that there's something funny about someone playing 20-24hrs/day, everyday for the whole damn season. So yea, they would have done something if they really wanted to.
I just hope they put a cap on paragons next season. That should go a long way in leveling the playing field.
Not to mention seeing timers on things like frozen, and clear circles of what not to stand in.
I have no idea where is this nonsense coming from.
Most opposing points in this thread are completely legitimate, with the main emphasis on a lame attempt to separate cheaters in two different barrels (good and bad).
As it was stated before the whole point of this approach is meaningless, its just the same as gathering of five social activists near the government building to scream: "Enforce the legal punishment for bribery amongst policemen".
But ok, let us accept the fact that people want to go out with a social initiative and try to stand for their cause. Why do they only care about "bribery amongst policemen" and completely ignore the "bribery amongst senate members"?
Best regards,
R1 Legit Hardcore player, which does not approve this letter.
And here is this ridiculous crap again. "Oh you are against the death penalty? You must be a murderer!"
This isn't an argument, it's childish nonsense. Lots of legit players are dissenting from this "community" letter (myself included) for some very good reasons.
Thank you. as to 1) that you're fandom of the technicality and again, an inflated sense of your importance. It was not a threat, simply a statement. 2) As you quoted, a 'better' representative of the community would be an OPEN signature letter (where anyone can sign, not just you and your clique), which would be more well written than your current closed letter.
As to your third statement, I've never botted, nor do I keep botters on my list. I've never been banned or suspended for using any kind of exploit/bot/hack/hud, because I don't use them. I program, I enjoy coding, and I know the trials and tribulations that face any program that emulates a person playing a game. I'd go into more detail, but I don't think you'd understand most of the jargon.
The fact that you accuse me of being a botter could also indicate your condescendence towards the general community of D3. That because someone has a different opinion than yours, and disagrees with your motives behind doing something, and claiming to represent the D3 community as a whole, is met with condescendence and arrogance, that shows me, and other intelligent people that you either cannot defend your position, or that there are ulterior motives for doing it.
So again, Thank you.
The letter starts off by stating its from the part of the community that is competetive.
Why is the whole letter targeting botters instead of all kind of cheaters?
The ones this letter is supposed to be signed by is way more affected by another cheat, like ffs just explained pretty well.
And of some mysterious reason they do not want to draw attention to either that cheat, or cheats in general - only botters.
It would come across as much more credible if it was to target all hacks, exploits, 3.application cheats and bots.
Make Blizz live up to their post about the issue... :
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5071567383
I kinda question how "incredibly important" this is to Blizzard, their dedication to the matter, and how "very seriously" they handle reports of all of these well known exploits, hacks and bots.
i don't make any accusations against specific players, but it definitely feels like this letter does not include other cheats (like turbohd) to protect signees who use them.
Because then Blizzard's reply would be to simply list the recent actions they have taken against cheaters (eg., blood shard exploit and Hellfire exploit). Thread closed, our letter would be meaningless. They DO ACT against cheaters. What they do not act against are
1) Botters
2) THUD.
Again, I listed often enough in this thread why THUD was not part of the letter, I'm not going to repeat it, read the previous posts in this thread. That leaves us with what? Yeah, exactly. Botting. The last known banwave against botters was very early on this year, which was actually even when botting didn't have that large impact on gameplay yet. Since then, the number of botters is constantly increasing, up to a point where botters publicly admit that they bot and even say it's because Blizzard doesn't act.
Making a generic letter about "please address cheating" would be absolutely pointless. Note, however, that we point Blizzard to their EULA and by enforcing that it would also mean action against all the other cheats you rightfully mention.
Like mentioned before, THUD and other such advantages are not mentioned because none of the signees would be able to sign it without looking foolish. I agree with most points that THUD is a much bigger advantage that botting in getting a leaderboard spot. Seeing pylons ahead of time and mob density (along with the convenience of of seeing debuffs on the ground) is a big advantage over having just the vanilla UI.
To say you want a competitive leaderboard for players who work hard and not mention TurboHud because you are trying to keep the letter from being "vague" is just an excuse. The reason is that none of the users could sign it even though THUD gives a much edge to these users that botting gives to botters.
Botting is hurting the game as well and I agree it should be taken care of, but in regards to fair and competitive leaderboards for players who work hard the real problem is actually THUD.
Don't compare add ons from wow to turbohud, turbo hud is a third party app not allowed according to eula.
Add Ons are scripted lua files that you put in the addon folder that wow reads, and wow dev team decides what kind of control addon is able to do, they can limit addon functionality or increase it whenever they wish, and it doesn't allow things that aren't allowed.
Exactly my thought, its like they are saying plz ban botting cos its unfair, but plz do nothing against turbohud because i actually use to gain advantage. they strongly stated in eula any form of automatic play or even data mining is against the eula, that diablo 3 needs huds improvements oke but to use that to justify use of turbohud is dumb, you use it i hope you are already marked for a perm ban, lets take any other gamedev they do not care how bad the cheat is if it gains you small or huge advantage, you get perm ban anyway, you knew what you where doing and you know the risks of getting caught, this aplies to any kind of cheating botting included, zero tolerance aka you get caught perm ban no exceptions.
Exploits can be argue'd about should be considered per case basis, but any kind third party app big no no.
Blizzard isnt going to do anything, they have your money and you will buy their next game no matter how you feel about cheating in d3.
So many people arguing that THUD should be a part of this Open Letter. To me it is like one group saying the window is a square, while the OP was arguing that the door is a rectangle. A meaningless, pointless strawman debate because neither side is wrong.
Botting *is* an issue. The fact that THUD is also an issue is not at debate, of course it is. Pointing that out does not invalidate the case for arguing against Botting. People complaining so much about why THUD is not a part of this particular campaign (regardless of how right or wrong they are about which issue is bigger) should divert the energy they are putting into this thread into creating their own open letter about THUD, if they feel that strongly about it. no one is stopping you. Heck, probably some of the people involved in the Botting Open Letter would be happy to be apart of that protest too.
ps. for what it is worth, I dislike the idea of botting worse than THUD simply because I find something perverse about the idea of buying a computer game then getting a computer program to play it for you. That seems really whack to me and at that point I think it ceases to be a game.
the signees of this open letter put the effort into it because they see themselves as having greater influence in the diablo community than the average joe. that much is true. mods of reddit have a louder voice than other redditors. streamers and people who make videos have a louder voice too (at least videos with more than a handful of views).
i disagree with the LEADER stuff, but thats irrelevant. because they have more influence, it would mean a lot more for them to campaign against THUD than the average joe. it would make the MOST sense to include THUD into the botting letter to have it encompass both, but it would likely be hypocritical for some of the signees. therefore, the best course of action would be for the few TRULY legit influential and public players to campaign against THUD, botters, and cheaters in general.
When someone gets a ranking amongst the top, finnishing GRxx in time, is it more likely that person is using a THUD or bot for said run?
Quote from Bagstone (Page 2)
"Our letter and this thread is about botting. I don't think there are two different opinions about bots (unless you're a botter), something you cannot say about other issues."
For someone who is preaching to stay on topic and avoid the name calling and accusations, I would say to read what you yourself wrote. You leveling accusations like that (twice in this thread in 2 separate comments ) is better in exactly what way ? How is it justifiable in your eyes to call anyone in this thread a botter ? What proof do you have ?
You mention people leveling accusations against signatories of the open letter. You ask what proof there is of that, well, open admission from at least 2 of them have been quoted in these last 10 pages. There have already been posts detailing accounts of botting/ account sharing/ turbohud using by several of your signers. However I guess that is something we can overlook because they are internet stars and we are not.
Meanwhile by your own words those of us calling for ALL CHEATERS to be punished "are defending our botting". I have to say that is disappointing especially coming from you.