Now maybe I'm getting too far ahead of myself. The game isn't even released yet and we haven't even seen content past level 13, BUT over some time browsing forums and conversing with other players I have conglomerated some ideas that I feel would add some wonderful competitive flavor alongside (and even synergising with) the monster slaying and loot hunting that Diablo is all about.
The positively incredible thing about game modes is that they don't require the promotion of razor-edge e-sports type balancing because they very nature is OBJECTIVE based. I.e. you're not simply there to test X build and X class composition vs. X build and X class composition. There are various other factors to consider when objectives become of supreme importance, such as speed/avoidance/stealth/distraction/logistics etc.
What will you do after you've slain virtually every monster numerous times and you're in the mood to see what all that phat lewt can do?
GAME MODES MY FRIENDS!
Please read through the whole list before passing judgement that I'm just a PvP fanatic. There are game modes for every type of player.
Without further ado:
1. Winner take all arenas - Items/gold put up beforehand and winning team takes all - you don't have to participate, but for those that do what a rush and motivation to win!
2. DoTA - "Defense of the Ancients" For those of you not familiar with the popular genre some quick examples to check out would be Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, or DoTA mods in Warcraft.
In Diablo, DoTA would look very similar but, in my opinion, has the potential to be exponentially more fun due to the fact that it's YOUR character, not a character that will be gone after the game ends.
Your hero will compete alongside other heros and hordes of monsters contending with opposing heros and their hordes of monsters to accomplish objectives, kill opposing forces, or slay enemy heros.
Your team's monster's become more powerful (as do you) as these objectives are completed until the final objective (destroying the enemy base) is accomplished.
DoTA would be somewhat inherently balanced because of the fact that monsters would be equated in terms of stat distribution until objectives are accomplished and they grow stronger.
Winner takes all mode and possibly a ranking system would be great additions!
3. Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently!
Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends!
4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly!
A ranking system for who held out for how long would be a great competitive addition!
5. "Objective" Based PvP - Think capture the flag, protect the vip, hold the fortress, etc.
Great for competitive PvP that would not require razor edge balancing efforts due to the objective based play!
All formats should have competitive rankings to induce competition and most importantly A REASON TO STRIVE TO WIN!
Of course all of this is wishful thinking, but sure sounds amazing AND WOULDN'T REQUIRE E-Sports balancing or detract from the PvM side of the game in any way (it may actually compliment it! Read below!)
The possibilities for incredible game modes in Diablo 3 are very diverse and the character builds/gear setups that would arise for each game mode would be literally infinite.
This would have a wonderful indirect effect of stimulating even more trade in Diablo, thus providing an amazing synergistic effect that would be inexpressibly fun to participate in!
Furthermore these game modes would provide virtually infinite replaybility to Diablo 3 and generate player motivation to continue farming/trading/PLAYING for years to come!
Great thing is my imagination sucks. I'm sure you guys can come up with even better stuff!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I love the ideas presented here. As long as such system didn't violate Blizzard's policy on competitive play (aka..no ranking), I'm completely for it. Having more PvP modes that don't completely focus on just killing the other players would be very fun. I think the completion Arena would have to be some kind of set objective, like complete X quest, or something.
I would be in supprt of different modes added over time. I especially like Hoard modes and DotA but I bet Winner takes all duels would be highly popular.
Also, reverse Diablo: you try to kill your friends hero who only have 3-4 of their skills, or try to kill generic heros. Not sure if it would be any good but might be worth a try
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
1. Winner take all arenas - Items/gold put up beforehand and winning team takes all - you don't have to participate, but for those that do what a rush and motivation to win!
4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly!
5. "Objective" Based PvP - Think capture the flag, protect the vip, hold the fortress, etc.
I think these three are a great idea, but I don't like the DoTA or content racing so much.
Winner take all arenas would add a lot to PvP, as well as "Objective" based PvP.
The Horde Mode suggestion just sounds ridiculously fun for some reason. I mean, thinking in terms of arena, you could create a Colosseum-esque game that could work in many ways, like 1v1 (whoever survives), kill count (kill the most in the same arena), or co-op!
Seriously though, this sounds like an "arena" PvP option to me.
1. Winner take all arenas - Items/gold put up beforehand and winning team takes all - you don't have to participate, but for those that do what a rush and motivation to win!
This will never happen. I'm no lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that this would violate US gambling laws since the digital goods could then be converted to real money. Even if I'm wrong legally, Blizzard isn't going to even give the appearance that they promote gambling because US politicians would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
2. DoTA - "Defense of the Ancients" For those of you not familiar with the popular genre some quick examples to check out would be Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, or DoTA mods in Warcraft. In Diablo, DoTA would look very similar but, in my opinion, has the potential to be exponentially more fun due to the fact that it's YOUR character, not a character that will be gone after the game ends. Your hero will compete alongside other heros and hordes of monsters contending with opposing heros and their hordes of monsters to accomplish objectives, kill opposing forces, or slay enemy heros. Your team's monster's become more powerful (as do you) as these objectives are completed until the final objective (destroying the enemy base) is accomplished.
DoTA would be somewhat inherently balanced because of the fact that monsters would be equated in terms of stat distribution until objectives are accomplished and they grow stronger. Winner takes all mode and possibly a ranking system would be great additions!
Unless you're suggesting this be PvE, it seems like this would very much imply a support of eSports which is contrary to Blizzard's stated goals for D3. Also, while it'd be cool, Blizzard wouldn't be able to just tack it on in a week of developer time. They'd have to polish it to Blizzard standards and support it, and people would expect proper balance and support for eSports, and, and, and. I just don't see Blizzard committing to something like this except maybe as a last-ditch effort to try to save D3 if it fails spectacularly. Not that I think it will, mind you.
3. Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently! Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends!
This could be kind of cool. How much developer work it would be would depend on how their backend systems are set up, and I'm not sure how they'd promote it or incentivize it. Still, it sounds interesting.
4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly! A ranking system for who held out for how long would be a great competitive addition!
This could be cool and it could fill peoples' competitive itch. The only concern I have is how they'd incentivize it, but that's mostly me being paranoid. I just wouldn't want to see something like this as a daily quest, give items which benefit general PvE, etc., because then it'd just become a chore. I'm probably just jaded from LotRO though.
5. "Objective" Based PvP - Think capture the flag, protect the vip, hold the fortress, etc. Great for competitive PvP that would not require razor edge balancing efforts due to the objective based play!
I don't think this will happen because of the WoW comparisons it would naturally draw. However, I could be wrong and this may be what they've delayed PvP for. I don't know what else they could be doing between launch and when PvP goes live.
All formats should have competitive rankings to induce competition and most importantly A REASON TO STRIVE TO WIN! Of course all of this is wishful thinking, but sure sounds amazing AND WOULDN'T REQUIRE E-Sports balancing or detract from the PvM side of the game in any way (it may actually compliment it! Read below!)
I'm not sure what you mean here. Introducing competitive ranking is exactly what Blizzard keeps saying they don't want to do because it absolutely would detract from PvE due to balancing concerns and customer expectations which accompany competitive PvP. Also, when you say, "a reason to strive to win," are you talking about leaderboards, custom gear or what? For the record, I don't like the idea of all of those, but still, I'm curious.
The possibilities for incredible game modes in Diablo 3 are very diverse and the character builds/gear setups that would arise for each game mode would be literally infinite. This would have a wonderful indirect effect of stimulating even more trade in Diablo, thus providing an amazing synergistic effect that would be inexpressibly fun to participate in! Furthermore these game modes would provide virtually infinite replaybility to Diablo 3 and generate player motivation to continue farming/trading/PLAYING for years to come!
Again, I disagree. I think you are right; unless one happens to not enjoy PvP. I don't believe that serious, competitive PvP can be done without detracting from PvE and D3 devs are on record saying they think it would absolutely hurt PvE. I also fail to see how shifting the value of different gear pieces from what they'd be without the above systems to what they'd be with them makes anything more fun.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
1. Winner take all arenas - Items/gold put up beforehand and winning team takes all - you don't have to participate, but for those that do what a rush and motivation to win!
This will never happen. I'm no lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that this would violate US gambling laws since the digital goods could then be converted to real money. Even if I'm wrong legally, Blizzard isn't going to even give the appearance that they promote gambling because US politicians would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
Although I think you're completely wrong (look at online gambling), why don't we leave the legality to the experts and focus on whether the idea is the fucking shit or not. I believe it to be, and think it would be a wonderful thing for the game. NOTE: THE GREAT THING IS YOU WILL NEVER BE FORCED TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF THE OFFERED MODES. KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN REPLYING PLEASE.
2. DoTA - "Defense of the Ancients" For those of you not familiar with the popular genre some quick examples to check out would be Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, or DoTA mods in Warcraft. In Diablo, DoTA would look very similar but, in my opinion, has the potential to be exponentially more fun due to the fact that it's YOUR character, not a character that will be gone after the game ends. Your hero will compete alongside other heros and hordes of monsters contending with opposing heros and their hordes of monsters to accomplish objectives, kill opposing forces, or slay enemy heros. Your team's monster's become more powerful (as do you) as these objectives are completed until the final objective (destroying the enemy base) is accomplished.
DoTA would be somewhat inherently balanced because of the fact that monsters would be equated in terms of stat distribution until objectives are accomplished and they grow stronger. Winner takes all mode and possibly a ranking system would be great additions!
Unless you're suggesting this be PvE, it seems like this would very much imply a support of eSports which is contrary to Blizzard's stated goals for D3. Also, while it'd be cool, Blizzard wouldn't be able to just tack it on in a week of developer time. They'd have to polish it to Blizzard standards and support it, and people would expect proper balance and support for eSports, and, and, and. I just don't see Blizzard committing to something like this except maybe as a last-ditch effort to try to save D3 if it fails spectacularly. Not that I think it will, mind you.
I'm not sure if you read my entire post or not, but I specifically stated that the fantastic thing about DoTA would be that it would have somewhat of inherent balance because of the addition of PvE mobs fighting alongside heroes, thus lessening the overall balance conundrum that "arena deathmatch" pvp inevitably appears to bring. In essence, you're fighting against AI AND players, not just pitted against X player build vs. X player build. More dynamics thus lessening the overall impact of a single potentially "overpowered" build. I just realized I'm getting drug back into the "balance" argument again. I'm done arguing about balance, period. The nature of this type of genre is inherently unbalanced, and that DOES NOT mean that competitive PvP can not or should not exist. Furhtermore, if you go to the front page it appears that Jay Wilson has had a change of heart about PvP. Most likely due to the OVERWHELMING support for it by the player base. I suggest you go watch the most recent developer interview. Yes this is a PvE centered game, and I believe this mode in particular (also horde mode and content racing) are a fantastic blend of competition, PvE, AND PvP to satisfy the majority of gamers.
As far as design time goes, I actually got this idea from a rumor that was going around that the devs were talking about developing this specific mode for Diablo 3. No idea if there's any truth to this, but even if there is not I'd be willing to wait for the design if the idea is sound.
3. Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently! Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends!
This could be kind of cool. How much developer work it would be would depend on how their backend systems are set up, and I'm not sure how they'd promote it or incentivize it. Still, it sounds interesting.
Not sure why you're commenting on how much developer work would be involved. That's really not your place or mine to comment on because we simply will never have the information to make an intelligent analysis. Please keep your comments focused on the topic.
4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly! A ranking system for who held out for how long would be a great competitive addition!
This could be cool and it could fill peoples' competitive itch. The only concern I have is how they'd incentivize it, but that's mostly me being paranoid. I just wouldn't want to see something like this as a daily quest, give items which benefit general PvE, etc., because then it'd just become a chore. I'm probably just jaded from LotRO though.
I see it more as a prestige thing. I.e. keep a record of what "team" has lasted the longest. Also we could have winner takes all modes and cosmetic or even item rewards. This mode is great because it adds a competitive atmosphere but is catered to the PvE player, which is exactly in line with what you (and others) believe Diablo 3 should be focused on.
5. "Objective" Based PvP - Think capture the flag, protect the vip, hold the fortress, etc. Great for competitive PvP that would not require razor edge balancing efforts due to the objective based play!
I don't think this will happen because of the WoW comparisons it would naturally draw. However, I could be wrong and this may be what they've delayed PvP for. I don't know what else they could be doing between launch and when PvP goes live.
I really don't comprehend some of your arguments. Because of the WoW comparisons it would draw? What the fuck kind of dumbass argument is that? There's literally countless comparisons that I could draw right now between Diablo 3 and WoW. Just because I can do that doesn't make all of those comparisons bad ideas. WoW was a FANTASTIC game. LEARN from it's mistakes. MAKE THINGS BETTER. EVOLVE. ADAPT. STOP THINKING LIKE CAVEMEN PLEASE.
All formats should have competitive rankings to induce competition and most importantly A REASON TO STRIVE TO WIN! Of course all of this is wishful thinking, but sure sounds amazing AND WOULDN'T REQUIRE E-Sports balancing or detract from the PvM side of the game in any way (it may actually compliment it! Read below!)
I'm not sure what you mean here. Introducing competitive ranking is exactly what Blizzard keeps saying they don't want to do because it absolutely would detract from PvE due to balancing concerns and customer expectations which accompany competitive PvP. Also, when you say, "a reason to strive to win," are you talking about leaderboards, custom gear or what? For the record, I don't like the idea of all of those, but still, I'm curious.
Wrong. The developers have stated that they don't want to encourage support of a system that caters to PvP balance at the expense of the PvE game. That's it. And I COMPLETELY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IN THIS TYPE OF GAME GENRE WHICH IS WHY THE BALANCE ARGUMENT IS UTTER BULLSHIT TO BEGIN WITH. There is literally infinite room in between those two extremes. What you have done here is take their words and twist them to an extreme by saying that there can be NO COMPETITION WHATSOEVER because PvP balance will not take a front seat in development. I hope you see the fallacy in this logic. It's a very extreme stance, and to be honest somewhat insulting to people who want to enjoy a well-rounded game.
Competition can take many forms - I'm not NECESSARILY talking about leader board or ladders, but rather ANY incentive that drives a player to perform their best to win. I.e. an item/gold up for grabs, a cosmetic look, a title, a banner symbol. There are literally countless ideas that would incentivize players to participate and fuel some epic conflicts.
The possibilities for incredible game modes in Diablo 3 are very diverse and the character builds/gear setups that would arise for each game mode would be literally infinite. This would have a wonderful indirect effect of stimulating even more trade in Diablo, thus providing an amazing synergistic effect that would be inexpressibly fun to participate in! Furthermore these game modes would provide virtually infinite replaybility to Diablo 3 and generate player motivation to continue farming/trading/PLAYING for years to come!
Again, I disagree. I think you are right; unless one happens to not enjoy PvP. I don't believe that serious, competitive PvP can be done without detracting from PvE and D3 devs are on record saying they think it would absolutely hurt PvE. I also fail to see how shifting the value of different gear pieces from what they'd be without the above systems to what they'd be with them makes anything more fun.
Then don't participate. That's a stupid fucking argument to make. You don't like PvP so others can't enjoy it either? Fucking ridiculous.
Sounds like you never participated in PvP in WoW or Diablo. Finding unique ways to gear your character to gain advantage was a huge part of both, ESPECIALLY Diablo 2 where trading was rampant. Dupes fucked everything up but I imagine it would of been absolutely amazing participating in that system without them. Hopefully Diablo 3 can fix this gigantic flaw.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
dOc, the developers said that the main thing about D3 is the storyline, going through it etc. That's what they're gonna deliver on release. After that the game has a lot of potential for development and i'm one that agree 100% with you when you say: GAME MODES. Hell yes, it would be really nice and imho opinion really fitting for the diablo universe to have these side-activities.
-Winner take all arenas: really fun. If it's random they'll prob limit it for a set gold amount. If it's premade vs premade you can gamble whatever you want.
-DoTA: short games (10min most) yes, would fit. Note that you don't have character leveling and may not have item development. Either way they'd have to make it right, fun a fitting.
-Content racing: fun. Team against team in a pvm environment. This has a lot of space for growth.
-Horde mode: perfect for diablo. A game that is largely about slaying masses of monsters.Either solo or team, this would rock.
-"Objective" Based PVP: as long as is not something silly, but something tough, visceral, iow, badass. In the diablo universe you don't give a shit to a sissy flag.
They shouldn't do too many, but a few really good ones. It's up to them to chose what to do, but i really hope they develop the game in this direction, diablo's amazing gameplay deserve more ways to be explored.
Although I think you're completely wrong (look at online gambling), why don't we leave the legality to the experts and focus on whether the idea is the fucking shit or not. I believe it to be, and think it would be a wonderful thing for the game. NOTE: THE GREAT THING IS YOU WILL NEVER BE FORCED TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF THE OFFERED MODES. KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN REPLYING PLEASE.
When did I say anyone would be forced to do it? And yes, look at online gambling. The US Congress passed legislation a few years ago to shut down online poker, for example. Then they went after Netteller which was a European company, arrested their CEO and forced them to stop doing business with Americans.
As far as what I am and am not allowed to say in my comments, put me on ignore if you want, but I'll comment on what I want to comment on, and no amount of capslock will stop me!
I'm going to skip a lot of quoting here and just say that, yes, I read your whole post. I just disagree with some of it, including your assertion that adding DOTA would be inherently balanced. It'd certainly be easier than say, turning it into a tower defense game, but that's not to say it would be trivial.
Not sure why you're commenting on how much developer work would be involved. That's really not your place or mine to comment on because we simply will never have the information to make an intelligent analysis. Please keep your comments focused on the topic.
I'm commenting on it because I'm a software developer myself and I know how relevant it is to the discussion. It's probably the single most relavant factor, after design goals, for which of your ideas would ever be implemented. If something takes two years to code, balance and bugtest, you'll never see it. If it takes a month, there's a good chance you will. Therefore, it's worth considering which ideas you want to champion and which probably aren't worth the effort. As a software developer, I see this sort of thing all the time and if you actually are hoping Blizzard runs with your ideas, you should focus on the ones which are the easiest for them to do. Even Blizzard doesn't have unlimited resorces.
I really don't comprehend some of your arguments. Because of the WoW comparisons it would draw? What the fuck kind of dumbass argument is that? There's literally countless comparisons that I could draw right now between Diablo 3 and WoW. Just because I can do that doesn't make all of those comparisons bad ideas. WoW was a FANTASTIC game. LEARN from it's mistakes. MAKE THINGS BETTER. EVOLVE. ADAPT. STOP THINKING LIKE CAVEMEN PLEASE.
I'm really trying to be polite here, but I don't know why I bother since you obviously aren't making the effort. Still, I think what you "don't comprehend" is that I'm trying to comment and not argue. I'm not telling you, "your ideas suck, go away." I'm not saying, "WoW was awful and anything associated with WoW is therefor also awful." The point I'm trying to make is that I think Bashiok, Jay Wilson and others have made it clear that they don't want PvP to be "serious business" in D3 like it is in WoW. Therefore, I don't think they want a lot of overlap between the two PvP-wise because people will draw the wrong conclusions about their intentions for support, balance, etc. Most players aren't reading forums, following the devs on twitter, etc., and they are going to form conclusions based on what they see in game. If those systems are geared towards a high level of competitiveness or have familiar battleground themes, they are going to expect Blizzard to support that the same way they do in WoW.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Introducing competitive ranking is exactly what Blizzard keeps saying they don't want to do because it absolutely would detract from PvE due to balancing concerns and customer expectations which accompany competitive PvP. Also, when you say, "a reason to strive to win," are you talking about leaderboards, custom gear or what? For the record, I don't like the idea of all of those, but still, I'm curious.
Wrong. The developers have stated that they don't want to encourage support of a system that caters to PvP balance at the expense of the PvE game. That's it. And I COMPLETELY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IN THIS TYPE OF GAME GENRE WHICH IS WHY THE BALANCE ARGUMENT IS UTTER BULLSHIT TO BEGIN WITH. There is literally infinite room in between those two extremes. What you have done here is take their words and twist them to an extreme by saying that there can be NO COMPETITION WHATSOEVER because PvP balance will not take a front seat in development. I hope you see the fallacy in this logic. It's a very extreme stance, and to be honest somewhat insulting to people who want to enjoy a well-rounded game.
First, I'm not wrong (see quote below, which is recent enough to still be on the front page). Second, I didn't say there can be no competition whatsoever -- stop putting words in my mouth, please. The point I was trying to make is that, unless you want to beat your head up against a wall, trying to get PvP rankings made visible, for example, is probably a dead end and not the best use for your effort. If the only comments you wanted were from people who agree with everything you said in the OP and think you can realistically get everything you want, you should have said so up front and I wouldn't have wasted my time. Anyway, here's the aformentioned quote, and I've highlighed some relevant parts:
We're open to the idea of custom PvP matches, which would allow for duels in the arenas. There are a lot of decisions before we can get there, but on the design philosophy front we don't have anything against practice duels or other custom matches (1v4?), as long as they can't be used for progression. It'll just come down to implementation and what we're able to pull off in a timely manner.
While we're talking about PvP it's probably worth reminding everyone that what we're targeting is a very loose and 'for fun' system. Imagine clicking a button, being matched up against another team of equal skill and gear, and win or lose you move forward (although faster if you win) on a personal progression system that gives you some cosmetic recognition as you go. There won't be ladders or leagues, we have no intent to expose team ratings, and very likely nothing besides a win/loss record to track performance etc. etc. etc. Anyone who has tried it at BlizzCon knows the PvP in Diablo III is a blast, but I've seen some people start to get ideas that it's going to be an eSport, and that's just not something we're targeting - for the sake of our goals in the single player/co-op experience.
It's one reason custom matches can make some people nervous, because it means players can start setting up their own games in attempts to create a more competitive system. Or just complaining their 1v1 duels aren't balanced.When that happens people start demanding the sacrifice of PvE, "I need more mobility/stuns/dps", separate systems with different abilities, and on and on. I think if there were one good argument against duels and custom games, it would be the players themselves.
uhh I still don't get it. If you balance PvP and PvE separately, this issue of one's balance affecting the other would never occur. Aside from some very basic user experience issues it would cause, and which we vehemently oppose, asking us to design, balance, and maintain two separate games just isn't reasonable.
Competition can take many forms - I'm not NECESSARILY talking about leader board or ladders, but rather ANY incentive that drives a player to perform their best to win. I.e. an item/gold up for grabs, a cosmetic look, a title, a banner symbol. There are literally countless ideas that would incentivize players to participate and fuel some epic conflicts.
I think banners, cosmetics etc. would be fine. Indeed, as per the above Blizzard quote, some form of that is definitely going in already. Items and gold too would be fine by me as long as they weren't "exclusive" or better than regular play. IE, an alternative gameplay mode is cool, but a required grind is not cool.
Then don't participate. That's a stupid fucking argument to make. You don't like PvP so others can't enjoy it either? Fucking ridiculous.
Sounds like you never participated in PvP in WoW or Diablo. Finding unique ways to gear your character to gain advantage was a huge part of both, ESPECIALLY Diablo 2 where trading was rampant. Dupes fucked everything up but I imagine it would of been absolutely amazing participating in that system without them. Hopefully Diablo 3 can fix this gigantic flaw.
Actually, I did participate in PvP extensively in WoW, as well as in several other games. And the argument isn't, "if I don't like PvP, you can't have it." The argument is, "why does every game ever made have to cater to competitive PvP?" There are tons of PvP games if that's your bag. There are even a plethora of highly competitive ones. There are not, however, a lot of online, PvE-focused games in the ARPG genre, and some of us would like to hang on to this one.
And I have no idea why we're suddenly talking about dupes. Didn't you ask me further up to stay focused and on topic?
By the way, why are you being so antagonistic? I really wrote my original response, and even this one despite being fairly angry, to try to be helpful and contribute to a dialogue. Why all the SHOUTING, cursing and personal attacks?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
There was not a single personal attack in my entire response. I attacked your arguments directly with strong language. I'm sorry if you can't handle big boy talk. I don't care to respond to your most recent post because your points have all been thoroughly refuted, yet you alter your arguments by saying "what I really meant was.." "The point I was trying to make was.." Everything I posted is what I really meant. Re-read it if you have any questions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, because this all sounds fun. Still, it has to be said… It’s not coming for Diablo 3. All that stuff is what Starcraft 2 is built for, and it does a damn fine job of it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
I will say that me and 7 others have played CTF as a PVP mode in Diablo 2 LOD. Typical Red vs. Blue Fashion
Get 2 socketed Skull caps and put a chipped ruby in one and a chipped sapphire in the other
Red Team hides their now red skull caps somewhere in blood moor (den of evil even) and blue team hides their blue somewhere between cold plains and Andariel (this is decided before hand and really comes down to how long you want your game to be.)
Countdown and commence.
This doesn't work so well without rules and people you trust not to cheat.. But my point is that CTF is fun when used in the Diablo game genre too.
One ruleset that we came up with that I prefered over all the others was "Hardcore mode" everyone levels up to a specific lvl > 9 with a hardcore character. Whatever gear you had found at that point you used.
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, because this all sounds fun. Still, it has to be said… It’s not coming for Diablo 3. All that stuff is what Starcraft 2 is built for, and it does a damn fine job of it.
There's limitless potential for these types of ideas. Commenting that they should be relegated to another genre is simply ignorant. There's no basis whatsoever for that logic. If it's fun, it's fun, and this shit would be incredibly fun.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
The only thing i think would have a shot of actually making it into diablo 3 is the horde mode (seriously dude brodcast this get it on blue posts and shit) because the others go against what blizzard wants for the game. not that those modes wouldnt be awsome cus they would kick ass but thats not what blizzard is trying to do with diablo 3 they are strictly looking at it as pve only with an optional pvp mode with little work or effert put in. not that i blame them cus balanceing this game for pvp would more than double the work required to make the game work.
I love all of the guys in this forum who think rankings = esports. Like if there is any ranking at all shit just becomes an esport. No work needed from the community or anything. Just slap that rank on there and bam here comes the money!
I love all of the guys in this forum who think rankings = esports. Like if there is any ranking at all shit just becomes an esport. No work needed from the community or anything. Just slap that rank on there and bam here comes the money!
I don't think anyone has stated that. However, there are connections between ranking, eSports and competitive play. Since Blizzard has specifically stated that PvP will be aimed at casual PvP, ranking is completely inappropriate for the game.
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, because this all sounds fun. Still, it has to be said… It’s not coming for Diablo 3. All that stuff is what Starcraft 2 is built for, and it does a damn fine job of it.
There's limitless potential for these types of ideas. Commenting that they should be relegated to another genre is simply ignorant. There's no basis whatsoever for that logic. If it's fun, it's fun, and this shit would be incredibly fun.
I'm not saying they should be relegated to another genre. I said It would be fun if they did add custom modes. I would play them.
I'm also saying blizzard just released a game that is built with an incredibly in-depth map editor designed to support limitless custom modes of play. They clearly have not built anything like that into this game. Read between the lines.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
We definitely want there to be a PvP mode for PvP players, and we would like that mode to be a really serious, skill-based, very strong [aspect of the game]. I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples. But in terms of what our actual plans are for Diablo III, we don't have anything to specifically announce right now, mostly because we're still messing around with a bunch of different ideas.
Wait, how did you conflate custom game modes with all pvp?
We've all known they'd include an arena sometime after launch. That's not in dispute.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
I'm not drawing that comparison. I'm rebutting, specifically, the people who say that COMPETITIVE PvP has no basis in Diablo 3. You're connecting dots that simply are not there.
I simply think these game modes COULD BE incredible for the game. Take that for what it's worth.
Although I highly doubt that PvP is being delayed for ONLY an arena system. I could be wrong, but considering the fact that we saw a working arena system years ago I would expect that more is being developed. I COULD BE WRONG!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I'm not drawing that comparison. I'm rebutting, specifically, the people who say that COMPETITIVE PvP has no basis in Diablo 3. You're connecting dots that simply are not there.
I just re-read this entire thread trying to find anyone who said anything that the Wilson interview refuted, and couldn't find anything. People have been pretty consistent to specifically refer to ranking as not having a place in D3, and have at times clumped "ranked" and "competitive" together. So if you're goal is to say there is room for competetive pvp without ranking, then yes, you're right. "Competitive" is a very vague adjective.
I simply think these game modes COULD BE incredible for the game. Take that for what it's worth.
Again, I've consistently agreed this would be fun. My only statement is not to get too hyped up, because unlike SC2, this game is not built with a heavy PvP focus. There is a clear contrast in design concepts, and you will likely be heartbroken if you anticipate something unrealistic.
Although I highly doubt that PvP is being delayed for ONLY an arena system. I could be wrong, but considering the fact that we saw a working arena system years ago I would expect that more is being developed. I COULD BE WRONG!
Obviously Blizz plays these things pretty close to the vest, and the truth could be far more interesting and exciting than any hypothesis of mine or yours.
My best guess is they offer a fun arena system with at most 3 pretty predictable battlegrounds that didn't require much development (i.e. Deathmatch variant, Capture The Flag, Control point style), and I'd be slack-jaw stunned if they implemented a ranking of any kind.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
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The positively incredible thing about game modes is that they don't require the promotion of razor-edge e-sports type balancing because they very nature is OBJECTIVE based. I.e. you're not simply there to test X build and X class composition vs. X build and X class composition. There are various other factors to consider when objectives become of supreme importance, such as speed/avoidance/stealth/distraction/logistics etc.
What will you do after you've slain virtually every monster numerous times and you're in the mood to see what all that phat lewt can do?
GAME MODES MY FRIENDS!
Please read through the whole list before passing judgement that I'm just a PvP fanatic. There are game modes for every type of player.
Without further ado:
1. Winner take all arenas - Items/gold put up beforehand and winning team takes all - you don't have to participate, but for those that do what a rush and motivation to win!
2. DoTA - "Defense of the Ancients" For those of you not familiar with the popular genre some quick examples to check out would be Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, or DoTA mods in Warcraft.
In Diablo, DoTA would look very similar but, in my opinion, has the potential to be exponentially more fun due to the fact that it's YOUR character, not a character that will be gone after the game ends.
Your hero will compete alongside other heros and hordes of monsters contending with opposing heros and their hordes of monsters to accomplish objectives, kill opposing forces, or slay enemy heros.
Your team's monster's become more powerful (as do you) as these objectives are completed until the final objective (destroying the enemy base) is accomplished.
DoTA would be somewhat inherently balanced because of the fact that monsters would be equated in terms of stat distribution until objectives are accomplished and they grow stronger.
Winner takes all mode and possibly a ranking system would be great additions!
3. Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently!
Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends!
4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly!
A ranking system for who held out for how long would be a great competitive addition!
5. "Objective" Based PvP - Think capture the flag, protect the vip, hold the fortress, etc.
Great for competitive PvP that would not require razor edge balancing efforts due to the objective based play!
All formats should have competitive rankings to induce competition and most importantly A REASON TO STRIVE TO WIN!
Of course all of this is wishful thinking, but sure sounds amazing AND WOULDN'T REQUIRE E-Sports balancing or detract from the PvM side of the game in any way (it may actually compliment it! Read below!)
The possibilities for incredible game modes in Diablo 3 are very diverse and the character builds/gear setups that would arise for each game mode would be literally infinite.
This would have a wonderful indirect effect of stimulating even more trade in Diablo, thus providing an amazing synergistic effect that would be inexpressibly fun to participate in!
Furthermore these game modes would provide virtually infinite replaybility to Diablo 3 and generate player motivation to continue farming/trading/PLAYING for years to come!
Great thing is my imagination sucks. I'm sure you guys can come up with even better stuff!
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Also, reverse Diablo: you try to kill your friends hero who only have 3-4 of their skills, or try to kill generic heros. Not sure if it would be any good but might be worth a try
I think these three are a great idea, but I don't like the DoTA or content racing so much.
Winner take all arenas would add a lot to PvP, as well as "Objective" based PvP.
The Horde Mode suggestion just sounds ridiculously fun for some reason. I mean, thinking in terms of arena, you could create a Colosseum-esque game that could work in many ways, like 1v1 (whoever survives), kill count (kill the most in the same arena), or co-op!
Seriously though, this sounds like an "arena" PvP option to me.
This will never happen. I'm no lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that this would violate US gambling laws since the digital goods could then be converted to real money. Even if I'm wrong legally, Blizzard isn't going to even give the appearance that they promote gambling because US politicians would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
Unless you're suggesting this be PvE, it seems like this would very much imply a support of eSports which is contrary to Blizzard's stated goals for D3. Also, while it'd be cool, Blizzard wouldn't be able to just tack it on in a week of developer time. They'd have to polish it to Blizzard standards and support it, and people would expect proper balance and support for eSports, and, and, and. I just don't see Blizzard committing to something like this except maybe as a last-ditch effort to try to save D3 if it fails spectacularly. Not that I think it will, mind you.
This could be kind of cool. How much developer work it would be would depend on how their backend systems are set up, and I'm not sure how they'd promote it or incentivize it. Still, it sounds interesting.
This could be cool and it could fill peoples' competitive itch. The only concern I have is how they'd incentivize it, but that's mostly me being paranoid. I just wouldn't want to see something like this as a daily quest, give items which benefit general PvE, etc., because then it'd just become a chore. I'm probably just jaded from LotRO though.
I don't think this will happen because of the WoW comparisons it would naturally draw. However, I could be wrong and this may be what they've delayed PvP for. I don't know what else they could be doing between launch and when PvP goes live.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Introducing competitive ranking is exactly what Blizzard keeps saying they don't want to do because it absolutely would detract from PvE due to balancing concerns and customer expectations which accompany competitive PvP. Also, when you say, "a reason to strive to win," are you talking about leaderboards, custom gear or what? For the record, I don't like the idea of all of those, but still, I'm curious.
Again, I disagree. I think you are right; unless one happens to not enjoy PvP. I don't believe that serious, competitive PvP can be done without detracting from PvE and D3 devs are on record saying they think it would absolutely hurt PvE. I also fail to see how shifting the value of different gear pieces from what they'd be without the above systems to what they'd be with them makes anything more fun.
Although I think you're completely wrong (look at online gambling), why don't we leave the legality to the experts and focus on whether the idea is the fucking shit or not. I believe it to be, and think it would be a wonderful thing for the game. NOTE: THE GREAT THING IS YOU WILL NEVER BE FORCED TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY OF THE OFFERED MODES. KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN REPLYING PLEASE.
2. DoTA - "Defense of the Ancients" For those of you not familiar with the popular genre some quick examples to check out would be Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, or DoTA mods in Warcraft. In Diablo, DoTA would look very similar but, in my opinion, has the potential to be exponentially more fun due to the fact that it's YOUR character, not a character that will be gone after the game ends. Your hero will compete alongside other heros and hordes of monsters contending with opposing heros and their hordes of monsters to accomplish objectives, kill opposing forces, or slay enemy heros. Your team's monster's become more powerful (as do you) as these objectives are completed until the final objective (destroying the enemy base) is accomplished.
DoTA would be somewhat inherently balanced because of the fact that monsters would be equated in terms of stat distribution until objectives are accomplished and they grow stronger. Winner takes all mode and possibly a ranking system would be great additions!
I'm not sure if you read my entire post or not, but I specifically stated that the fantastic thing about DoTA would be that it would have somewhat of inherent balance because of the addition of PvE mobs fighting alongside heroes, thus lessening the overall balance conundrum that "arena deathmatch" pvp inevitably appears to bring. In essence, you're fighting against AI AND players, not just pitted against X player build vs. X player build. More dynamics thus lessening the overall impact of a single potentially "overpowered" build. I just realized I'm getting drug back into the "balance" argument again. I'm done arguing about balance, period. The nature of this type of genre is inherently unbalanced, and that DOES NOT mean that competitive PvP can not or should not exist. Furhtermore, if you go to the front page it appears that Jay Wilson has had a change of heart about PvP. Most likely due to the OVERWHELMING support for it by the player base. I suggest you go watch the most recent developer interview. Yes this is a PvE centered game, and I believe this mode in particular (also horde mode and content racing) are a fantastic blend of competition, PvE, AND PvP to satisfy the majority of gamers.
As far as design time goes, I actually got this idea from a rumor that was going around that the devs were talking about developing this specific mode for Diablo 3. No idea if there's any truth to this, but even if there is not I'd be willing to wait for the design if the idea is sound.
3. Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently! Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends!
Not sure why you're commenting on how much developer work would be involved. That's really not your place or mine to comment on because we simply will never have the information to make an intelligent analysis. Please keep your comments focused on the topic.
4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly! A ranking system for who held out for how long would be a great competitive addition!
I see it more as a prestige thing. I.e. keep a record of what "team" has lasted the longest. Also we could have winner takes all modes and cosmetic or even item rewards. This mode is great because it adds a competitive atmosphere but is catered to the PvE player, which is exactly in line with what you (and others) believe Diablo 3 should be focused on.
5. "Objective" Based PvP - Think capture the flag, protect the vip, hold the fortress, etc. Great for competitive PvP that would not require razor edge balancing efforts due to the objective based play!
I really don't comprehend some of your arguments. Because of the WoW comparisons it would draw? What the fuck kind of dumbass argument is that? There's literally countless comparisons that I could draw right now between Diablo 3 and WoW. Just because I can do that doesn't make all of those comparisons bad ideas. WoW was a FANTASTIC game. LEARN from it's mistakes. MAKE THINGS BETTER. EVOLVE. ADAPT. STOP THINKING LIKE CAVEMEN PLEASE.
All formats should have competitive rankings to induce competition and most importantly A REASON TO STRIVE TO WIN! Of course all of this is wishful thinking, but sure sounds amazing AND WOULDN'T REQUIRE E-Sports balancing or detract from the PvM side of the game in any way (it may actually compliment it! Read below!)
Wrong. The developers have stated that they don't want to encourage support of a system that caters to PvP balance at the expense of the PvE game. That's it. And I COMPLETELY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IN THIS TYPE OF GAME GENRE WHICH IS WHY THE BALANCE ARGUMENT IS UTTER BULLSHIT TO BEGIN WITH. There is literally infinite room in between those two extremes. What you have done here is take their words and twist them to an extreme by saying that there can be NO COMPETITION WHATSOEVER because PvP balance will not take a front seat in development. I hope you see the fallacy in this logic. It's a very extreme stance, and to be honest somewhat insulting to people who want to enjoy a well-rounded game.
Competition can take many forms - I'm not NECESSARILY talking about leader board or ladders, but rather ANY incentive that drives a player to perform their best to win. I.e. an item/gold up for grabs, a cosmetic look, a title, a banner symbol. There are literally countless ideas that would incentivize players to participate and fuel some epic conflicts.
Then don't participate. That's a stupid fucking argument to make. You don't like PvP so others can't enjoy it either? Fucking ridiculous.
Sounds like you never participated in PvP in WoW or Diablo. Finding unique ways to gear your character to gain advantage was a huge part of both, ESPECIALLY Diablo 2 where trading was rampant. Dupes fucked everything up but I imagine it would of been absolutely amazing participating in that system without them. Hopefully Diablo 3 can fix this gigantic flaw.
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-Winner take all arenas: really fun. If it's random they'll prob limit it for a set gold amount. If it's premade vs premade you can gamble whatever you want.
-DoTA: short games (10min most) yes, would fit. Note that you don't have character leveling and may not have item development. Either way they'd have to make it right, fun a fitting.
-Content racing: fun. Team against team in a pvm environment. This has a lot of space for growth.
-Horde mode: perfect for diablo. A game that is largely about slaying masses of monsters.Either solo or team, this would rock.
-"Objective" Based PVP: as long as is not something silly, but something tough, visceral, iow, badass. In the diablo universe you don't give a shit to a sissy flag.
They shouldn't do too many, but a few really good ones. It's up to them to chose what to do, but i really hope they develop the game in this direction, diablo's amazing gameplay deserve more ways to be explored.
When did I say anyone would be forced to do it? And yes, look at online gambling. The US Congress passed legislation a few years ago to shut down online poker, for example. Then they went after Netteller which was a European company, arrested their CEO and forced them to stop doing business with Americans.
As far as what I am and am not allowed to say in my comments, put me on ignore if you want, but I'll comment on what I want to comment on, and no amount of capslock will stop me!
I'm going to skip a lot of quoting here and just say that, yes, I read your whole post. I just disagree with some of it, including your assertion that adding DOTA would be inherently balanced. It'd certainly be easier than say, turning it into a tower defense game, but that's not to say it would be trivial.
I'm commenting on it because I'm a software developer myself and I know how relevant it is to the discussion. It's probably the single most relavant factor, after design goals, for which of your ideas would ever be implemented. If something takes two years to code, balance and bugtest, you'll never see it. If it takes a month, there's a good chance you will. Therefore, it's worth considering which ideas you want to champion and which probably aren't worth the effort. As a software developer, I see this sort of thing all the time and if you actually are hoping Blizzard runs with your ideas, you should focus on the ones which are the easiest for them to do. Even Blizzard doesn't have unlimited resorces.
I'm really trying to be polite here, but I don't know why I bother since you obviously aren't making the effort. Still, I think what you "don't comprehend" is that I'm trying to comment and not argue. I'm not telling you, "your ideas suck, go away." I'm not saying, "WoW was awful and anything associated with WoW is therefor also awful." The point I'm trying to make is that I think Bashiok, Jay Wilson and others have made it clear that they don't want PvP to be "serious business" in D3 like it is in WoW. Therefore, I don't think they want a lot of overlap between the two PvP-wise because people will draw the wrong conclusions about their intentions for support, balance, etc. Most players aren't reading forums, following the devs on twitter, etc., and they are going to form conclusions based on what they see in game. If those systems are geared towards a high level of competitiveness or have familiar battleground themes, they are going to expect Blizzard to support that the same way they do in WoW.
First, I'm not wrong (see quote below, which is recent enough to still be on the front page). Second, I didn't say there can be no competition whatsoever -- stop putting words in my mouth, please. The point I was trying to make is that, unless you want to beat your head up against a wall, trying to get PvP rankings made visible, for example, is probably a dead end and not the best use for your effort. If the only comments you wanted were from people who agree with everything you said in the OP and think you can realistically get everything you want, you should have said so up front and I wouldn't have wasted my time. Anyway, here's the aformentioned quote, and I've highlighed some relevant parts:
Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
While we're talking about PvP it's probably worth reminding everyone that what we're targeting is a very loose and 'for fun' system. Imagine clicking a button, being matched up against another team of equal skill and gear, and win or lose you move forward (although faster if you win) on a personal progression system that gives you some cosmetic recognition as you go. There won't be ladders or leagues, we have no intent to expose team ratings, and very likely nothing besides a win/loss record to track performance etc. etc. etc. Anyone who has tried it at BlizzCon knows the PvP in Diablo III is a blast, but I've seen some people start to get ideas that it's going to be an eSport, and that's just not something we're targeting - for the sake of our goals in the single player/co-op experience.
It's one reason custom matches can make some people nervous, because it means players can start setting up their own games in attempts to create a more competitive system. Or just complaining their 1v1 duels aren't balanced. When that happens people start demanding the sacrifice of PvE, "I need more mobility/stuns/dps", separate systems with different abilities, and on and on. I think if there were one good argument against duels and custom games, it would be the players themselves.
uhh I still don't get it. If you balance PvP and PvE separately, this issue of one's balance affecting the other would never occur.
Aside from some very basic user experience issues it would cause, and which we vehemently oppose, asking us to design, balance, and maintain two separate games just isn't reasonable.
I think banners, cosmetics etc. would be fine. Indeed, as per the above Blizzard quote, some form of that is definitely going in already. Items and gold too would be fine by me as long as they weren't "exclusive" or better than regular play. IE, an alternative gameplay mode is cool, but a required grind is not cool.
Actually, I did participate in PvP extensively in WoW, as well as in several other games. And the argument isn't, "if I don't like PvP, you can't have it." The argument is, "why does every game ever made have to cater to competitive PvP?" There are tons of PvP games if that's your bag. There are even a plethora of highly competitive ones. There are not, however, a lot of online, PvE-focused games in the ARPG genre, and some of us would like to hang on to this one.
And I have no idea why we're suddenly talking about dupes. Didn't you ask me further up to stay focused and on topic?
By the way, why are you being so antagonistic? I really wrote my original response, and even this one despite being fairly angry, to try to be helpful and contribute to a dialogue. Why all the SHOUTING, cursing and personal attacks?
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Get 2 socketed Skull caps and put a chipped ruby in one and a chipped sapphire in the other
Red Team hides their now red skull caps somewhere in blood moor (den of evil even) and blue team hides their blue somewhere between cold plains and Andariel (this is decided before hand and really comes down to how long you want your game to be.)
Countdown and commence.
This doesn't work so well without rules and people you trust not to cheat.. But my point is that CTF is fun when used in the Diablo game genre too.
One ruleset that we came up with that I prefered over all the others was "Hardcore mode" everyone levels up to a specific lvl > 9 with a hardcore character. Whatever gear you had found at that point you used.
http://twitch.tv/JustClickSh1t
There's limitless potential for these types of ideas. Commenting that they should be relegated to another genre is simply ignorant. There's no basis whatsoever for that logic. If it's fun, it's fun, and this shit would be incredibly fun.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I don't think anyone has stated that. However, there are connections between ranking, eSports and competitive play. Since Blizzard has specifically stated that PvP will be aimed at casual PvP, ranking is completely inappropriate for the game.
I'm not saying they should be relegated to another genre. I said It would be fun if they did add custom modes. I would play them.
I'm also saying blizzard just released a game that is built with an incredibly in-depth map editor designed to support limitless custom modes of play. They clearly have not built anything like that into this game. Read between the lines.
http://pc.gamespy.co...i/901260p3.html
Direct quote from Jay Wilson. This should make everyone shut the fuck up about COMPETITIVE PvP not having a basis in Diablo 3.
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=J-zZRhgnnRM
Interview on front page in support of a solid COMPETITIVE PvP system.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
We've all known they'd include an arena sometime after launch. That's not in dispute.
I simply think these game modes COULD BE incredible for the game. Take that for what it's worth.
Although I highly doubt that PvP is being delayed for ONLY an arena system. I could be wrong, but considering the fact that we saw a working arena system years ago I would expect that more is being developed. I COULD BE WRONG!
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I just re-read this entire thread trying to find anyone who said anything that the Wilson interview refuted, and couldn't find anything. People have been pretty consistent to specifically refer to ranking as not having a place in D3, and have at times clumped "ranked" and "competitive" together. So if you're goal is to say there is room for competetive pvp without ranking, then yes, you're right. "Competitive" is a very vague adjective.
Again, I've consistently agreed this would be fun. My only statement is not to get too hyped up, because unlike SC2, this game is not built with a heavy PvP focus. There is a clear contrast in design concepts, and you will likely be heartbroken if you anticipate something unrealistic.
Obviously Blizz plays these things pretty close to the vest, and the truth could be far more interesting and exciting than any hypothesis of mine or yours.
My best guess is they offer a fun arena system with at most 3 pretty predictable battlegrounds that didn't require much development (i.e. Deathmatch variant, Capture The Flag, Control point style), and I'd be slack-jaw stunned if they implemented a ranking of any kind.