1. the listings are anonymous. So if there's multiple at around the same price, you may bid on the wrong one and pay for something you don't need.
2. People don't know which limit others have set for a certain item, which may also make them win the auction and pay the deposit fees without actually having profit.
I don't think that's going to be an issue tbh.
Simple as that. At least from what we know so far.
Buying your own items repeatedly instead of actually selling them just to raise their price a little bit seems like a very dumb way to "make profit". I'd rather spend time and brainpower into actually analysing the market and profitting from making "good deals".
to make money? if you cannot retrace the owner everything is possible. But who cares?
If they were really trying to make money, they would have a % of the sale price as their cut, rather than a flat fee (keeping a flat listing fee to allow for a wider range of items sold). I would be surprised if items sell for under $1, and at that price (assuming a 10 cent fee, for some reason I thought I heard 5 cents somewhere), if they changed from flat to 10%, they would make oodles more on the high-end items that drop at the start.
I also think they could have saved on legal fees if they just went with a straight item store if they were "in it for the money." The game will sell massively, there might be some profit to be had by them in the AH, and the expansions will also sell massively.
They don't need additional revenue streams.
I'm pretty certain even Senor Kotick can't ask for more money from Blizzard, he would burst if they made a higher profit rate.
Because of the time and effort required to achieve any results with shilling, this could only happen shortly after the game releases. After a few weeks, the auction house will be very competitive and prices will be too low to bother.
This will be hard to do depending on how exactly the AH is designed. We know there is complete anomnimity in both the RM and Gold auction houses, therefore can you even search for your own auction to inflate the price? Not easily. Even if you could, blizzard would detect you were cheating the system pretty quickly.
Because you are obtaining money in an unfair/deceptive way and without the knowledge of the other bidders.
I've got a feeling this wont be a huge problem in D3 though.
How?
Person A puts item on AH for $1.00 then bids on his item for $1.25 = someone now has to pay 1.25
Person B put item on AH for $1.25 = the same damn thing
If someone notices a person has bid on their item (granted this would take a large amount of time to watch the item do to anonymous postings) they could go into a bidding war with that person and potentially pay of their own item for no reason (then losing money from the AH cut). The end result is this whole money making attempt is the most "reduced" way to approach anything financially.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Because you are obtaining money in an unfair/deceptive way and without the knowledge of the other bidders.
I've got a feeling this wont be a huge problem in D3 though.
Alright guys, you are answering my questing with my question and its quiet annoying.
The OP has made the claim that bidding on your own items is wrong. I'm asking how it is wrong/immoral/unethical/unfair and you are answering with because its unfair/unethical/immoral(in this context these words mean the same thing).
If some one is willing to pay a higher price for an item, then why is it wrong for the seller to up the price ?
They can to it spotty and regulate the item market via drop chances so it's possible anyway. Also it is nothing compared to the item flood which comes from botting and china farming.
Realistically, they could just make diablo a subscription game and make more money that way. I know it wouldn't stop me from buying it, and I'm sure there's plenty who would do the same. Money lost from people who this would be a deal breaker for would be regained after a short amount of time.
Because you are obtaining money in an unfair/deceptive way and without the knowledge of the other bidders.
I've got a feeling this wont be a huge problem in D3 though.
Alright guys, you are answering my questing with my question and its quiet annoying.
The OP has made the claim that bidding on your own items is wrong. I'm asking how it is wrong/immoral/unethical/unfair and you are answering with because its unfair/unethical/immoral(in this context these words mean the same thing).
If some one is willing to pay a higher price for an item, then why is it wrong for the seller to up the price ?
It is wrong because players are deceived to believe that they are competing with someone for the item. IE someone else wants it badly as well. This creates false demand for the item and drives up price.
It is wrong because players are deceived to believe that they are competing with someone for the item. IE someone else wants it badly as well. This creates false demand for the item and drives up price.
It's completely unethical and impossible to stop.
Well, I mean, I get what you're saying, but I also see what the other person was saying about bidding your own item up is no different than listing at a higher price.
I don't think I mind the self-bidding as long as there are other sellers of the same item competing with the self-bidding person.
It gets problematic for me when there are no competitive sellers for a given item and shilling is taking place.
It is wrong because players are deceived to believe that they are competing with someone for the item. IE someone else wants it badly as well. This creates false demand for the item and drives up price.
It's completely unethical and impossible to stop.
It's a free market; you pay until you’re not comfortable with the price... or pay the buyout if you need the item that badly. If there is no buyout then deal with it, there is no difference between bidding on your own items and having someone posting the item at a higher price. There is no false demand, if you’re willing to pay for the artificially priced item then there is still demand for the item at that price. Chances are there will be multiple of the same item posted at some point and that will drive prices down.
When it comes to economics there are no ethics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I have immense problems with statements like that.
It seems to lead discussion in a direction such that profit is an End rather than a Means, which leads to some wholey uncomfortable territory and consequences.
Not going to get more into it than that since it would be excessively OT.
I have immense problems with statements like that.
It seems to lead discussion in a direction such that profit is an End rather than a Means, which leads to some wholey uncomfortable territory and consequences.
Not going to get more into it than that since it would be excessively OT.
Well he's techically right. Ethics, as some self-prescribed moral codex that is (presuably) a bit more strict than the laws themselves, are just about as arbitrary as anything these days. But, it's important to note that what Blizzard finds to be unethical could well become law (in game). So, in essence, while there are no actualy market game ethics except those that are self-inflicted: therea are limitations stemming from ethics (proper).
person A puts item on auction house for $5.00
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person B puts the same item on auction house for $4.90
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person A notices person B selling lower than him, person A removes the item and re-list it for $4.80
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person B repeats what person A does and puts it for $4.70
Blizzard wins another 5 cents
Imagine if they were person C, D, E and so on doing this to. If I get a nickle for every item posted in auction, I'd be a zillionaire chewing on some T-rex drumsticks and chugging down a pitcher of holy water on my throne.
person A puts item on auction house for $5.00
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person B puts the same item on auction house for $4.90
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person A notices person B selling lower than him, person A removes the item and re-list it for $4.80
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person B repeats what person A does and puts it for $4.70
Blizzard wins another 5 cents
Imagine if they were person C, D, E and so on doing this to. If I get a nickle for every item posted in auction, I'd be a zillionaire chewing on some T-rex drumsticks and chugging down a pitcher of holy water on my throne.
Your example also suggests that in a matter of about a week, everything on the AH will be free.
There is a simple solution to this "problem", and it is not bidding more than you think an item is worth.
The only way this would have any effect is if you are bidding on an item, and no one (other than the seller) is bidding against you. This should usually result in you getting the item at a significantly reduced price, so the seller could "bid you up". It is highly unlikely that there will be no other players bidding against you, and it is highly unlikely that there will not be other auctions for similar items with sellers that aren't attempting this (failure of a) scheme.
If you just don't bid higher than you should, the only outcome of sellers trying this will be them buying their own items.
If you just don't bid higher than you should, the only outcome of sellers trying this will be them buying their own items.
This is one thing that might stop some of them. When you buy your own item, assuming the pool of accounts involved is your money, you will lose money through the AH cut and pay another listing fee (if you wanted to re-post) since it would have been a sale if you didn't buy it.
Ex with made up numbers:
$10 item gets bid up to $20 by 2nd account
$20 final sale price that you have to pay, since no one bid after you
Receive $19 in your sellers account after paying posting/final sales fee
End result: Lose $1
However, some will take this risk so many times that they come out on top especially rare items or server first drops. $1 also seems a bit high for fixed fees, it might be as low as 10 cents to post and up to 50 cents for the final sale fee. Just my guess, although on the G4TV discussion, someone mentioned it was 5-10 cents to post. Still, risking a few dollars on costs for an extra $5-$10 might be an incentive for some players.
This is all assuming someone actually wants to buy your auctions for real money instead of the gold auction house. I have a feeling there will be a lot of RMAH items that simply won't sell or will become too cheap so it ends up on the gold only AH.
Buying your own items repeatedly instead of actually selling them just to raise their price a little bit seems like a very dumb way to "make profit". I'd rather spend time and brainpower into actually analysing the market and profitting from making "good deals".
If they were really trying to make money, they would have a % of the sale price as their cut, rather than a flat fee (keeping a flat listing fee to allow for a wider range of items sold). I would be surprised if items sell for under $1, and at that price (assuming a 10 cent fee, for some reason I thought I heard 5 cents somewhere), if they changed from flat to 10%, they would make oodles more on the high-end items that drop at the start.
I also think they could have saved on legal fees if they just went with a straight item store if they were "in it for the money." The game will sell massively, there might be some profit to be had by them in the AH, and the expansions will also sell massively.
They don't need additional revenue streams.
I'm pretty certain even Senor Kotick can't ask for more money from Blizzard, he would burst if they made a higher profit rate.
-Kardax
http://huntersc.tv
How?
Person A puts item on AH for $1.00 then bids on his item for $1.25 = someone now has to pay 1.25
Person B put item on AH for $1.25 = the same damn thing
If someone notices a person has bid on their item (granted this would take a large amount of time to watch the item do to anonymous postings) they could go into a bidding war with that person and potentially pay of their own item for no reason (then losing money from the AH cut). The end result is this whole money making attempt is the most "reduced" way to approach anything financially.
Alright guys, you are answering my questing with my question and its quiet annoying.
The OP has made the claim that bidding on your own items is wrong. I'm asking how it is wrong/immoral/unethical/unfair and you are answering with because its unfair/unethical/immoral(in this context these words mean the same thing).
If some one is willing to pay a higher price for an item, then why is it wrong for the seller to up the price ?
Realistically, they could just make diablo a subscription game and make more money that way. I know it wouldn't stop me from buying it, and I'm sure there's plenty who would do the same. Money lost from people who this would be a deal breaker for would be regained after a short amount of time.
It is wrong because players are deceived to believe that they are competing with someone for the item. IE someone else wants it badly as well. This creates false demand for the item and drives up price.
It's completely unethical and impossible to stop.
Well, I mean, I get what you're saying, but I also see what the other person was saying about bidding your own item up is no different than listing at a higher price.
I don't think I mind the self-bidding as long as there are other sellers of the same item competing with the self-bidding person.
It gets problematic for me when there are no competitive sellers for a given item and shilling is taking place.
It's a free market; you pay until you’re not comfortable with the price... or pay the buyout if you need the item that badly. If there is no buyout then deal with it, there is no difference between bidding on your own items and having someone posting the item at a higher price. There is no false demand, if you’re willing to pay for the artificially priced item then there is still demand for the item at that price. Chances are there will be multiple of the same item posted at some point and that will drive prices down.
When it comes to economics there are no ethics.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!
I have immense problems with statements like that.
It seems to lead discussion in a direction such that profit is an End rather than a Means, which leads to some wholey uncomfortable territory and consequences.
Not going to get more into it than that since it would be excessively OT.
Well he's techically right. Ethics, as some self-prescribed moral codex that is (presuably) a bit more strict than the laws themselves, are just about as arbitrary as anything these days. But, it's important to note that what Blizzard finds to be unethical could well become law (in game). So, in essence, while there are no actualy market game ethics except those that are self-inflicted: therea are limitations stemming from ethics (proper).
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person B puts the same item on auction house for $4.90
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person A notices person B selling lower than him, person A removes the item and re-list it for $4.80
Blizzard gets 5 cents
person B repeats what person A does and puts it for $4.70
Blizzard wins another 5 cents
Imagine if they were person C, D, E and so on doing this to. If I get a nickle for every item posted in auction, I'd be a zillionaire chewing on some T-rex drumsticks and chugging down a pitcher of holy water on my throne.
Your example also suggests that in a matter of about a week, everything on the AH will be free.
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!
The only way this would have any effect is if you are bidding on an item, and no one (other than the seller) is bidding against you. This should usually result in you getting the item at a significantly reduced price, so the seller could "bid you up". It is highly unlikely that there will be no other players bidding against you, and it is highly unlikely that there will not be other auctions for similar items with sellers that aren't attempting this (failure of a) scheme.
If you just don't bid higher than you should, the only outcome of sellers trying this will be them buying their own items.
This is one thing that might stop some of them. When you buy your own item, assuming the pool of accounts involved is your money, you will lose money through the AH cut and pay another listing fee (if you wanted to re-post) since it would have been a sale if you didn't buy it.
Ex with made up numbers:
$10 item gets bid up to $20 by 2nd account
$20 final sale price that you have to pay, since no one bid after you
Receive $19 in your sellers account after paying posting/final sales fee
End result: Lose $1
However, some will take this risk so many times that they come out on top especially rare items or server first drops. $1 also seems a bit high for fixed fees, it might be as low as 10 cents to post and up to 50 cents for the final sale fee. Just my guess, although on the G4TV discussion, someone mentioned it was 5-10 cents to post. Still, risking a few dollars on costs for an extra $5-$10 might be an incentive for some players.
This is all assuming someone actually wants to buy your auctions for real money instead of the gold auction house. I have a feeling there will be a lot of RMAH items that simply won't sell or will become too cheap so it ends up on the gold only AH.