So, recently I found and watched the Artisan release video on Youtube. Now, while I do like this approach, much was made about the 'hero' not having to actually craft items. I found this a bit perplexing because, aren't you the 'player' still the one appropriating and adding materials and items into the mix, and clicking the associated 'make' button? If that's so, how is the player not crafting? Perhaps what they might mean by the player not having 'a second job' so to speak, is instead avoiding having to acquire specific skills or train specific skills? But still isn't that still the same thing with a different name? Puttah posting below, summed this up nicely, "Even the added feature of having to buy the skills to craft in wow doesn't seem any different to buying a higher grade artisan." Great point Puttah!
I think the attributable phrase, "...we felt that the idea that the player would have a side job [of crafting]... , ...didn't really fit the tone of a diablo game." might have more sense if the Artisan was able take care of all the crafting without having any input from the player. Now while that probably wouldn't be any fun, it is more descriptive of what Jay is stating.
In the end, if the player is contributing materials and is conducive and participatory in the crafting process, they are ipso facto 'crafting'. Granted this is a game of semantics, but the entire "heroic characters shouldn't have to craft" argument is filled with falsehoods, erroneous statements, misconceptions and probably quite a few stereotypes. An RPG (by definition) has to have some form of a crafting system (of which the player is participatory) or the end result is third person shooter/dungeon crawler.
This is the way I see it: the hero goes out into the wilderness, where nobody else dares to go (that's what heroes do). With that, he comes across a whole bunch of craftable materials not otherwise accessible. Hence he can pick them up and collect them, that still makes sense. Then he can go to a specialist and order what he wants (= click the button).
I guess what blizzard means is that it makes more sense to have a specialized npc be the crafter, instead of adding also that to your character. But I agree that from a gameplay point of view the differences are minor (only now you have to go to your caravan before you can craft). The 'feel' is totally different though. Now you have a bunch of specialists following you, who can get extremely good at what they do. Like this they kind of avoid the 'jack of all trades' feel to your character. Your character is just supposed to become really good at slaying monsters.
At first I was thinking "oh boy I'm gonna have to flame this kid so hard" but then it dawned on me, you have a good point! It really is not that much different than, say, in wow where you have to gather the materials anyway, and then craft them by clicking a button here and there. Even the added feature of having to buy the skills to craft in wow doesn't seem any different to buying a higher grade artisan.
At first I was thinking "oh boy I'm gonna have to flame this kid [Is 30 a kid? Lol] so hard" but then it dawned on me, you have a good point! It really is not that much different than, say, in wow where you have to gather the materials anyway, and then craft them by clicking a button here and there. Even the added feature of having to buy the skills to craft in wow doesn't seem any different to buying a higher grade artisan.
To be quite honest, I expected to be flamed. But thanks for not doing so.
The 'feel' is totally different though. Like this they kind of avoid the 'jack of all trades' feel to your character. Your character is just supposed to become really good at slaying monsters.
I totally agree with you in that the 'feel' is totally different, and that it avoids a 'jack of all trades' type of character. However, my dissension is in the fact that Jay has stated that the player is not crafting, when in fact he/she actually is. It is a clever use of psychological factors to subtly persuade the player into feeling that they are not crafting, and I give them kudos for that, but in the end it is still player induced crafting.
It makes more sense to have a crafts person make your item rather than magically getting it with the requisite ingredients. It is like the different feel of the amazon's Lightning Bolt skill versus the sorceress' Lightning skill for lack of a better comparison. More generally, if the effect were to be the same, but the process, mechanics, visuals and/or lore were different, then the same effect would have a different feel. The feeling of an aspect of the game is parcel to game as a whole, so I welcome this flavor change. The Horadric Cube was a clumsy mechanic anyways, especially in D2C with its smaller stash dimensions.
I don't disagree with you at all, and I really do like how they've added craftspeople into the game, and I also agree with your opinion of the Horadric Cube. Cratfspeople do create a different feel to the process, however I will quote myself, "[A]ren't you the 'player' still the one appropriating and adding materials and items into the mix, and clicking the associated 'make' button? If that's so, how is the player not crafting?" It simply seems disingenuous to state that the player isn't crafting when they obviously are, regardless of the associated feel or mechanic used to achieve it.
To get to the heart of my point, I am attempting to point out the false notion that a person might like or dislike a game on the basis of whether player crafting is included or not included. Just like this system, and to cite another, Guild Wars, they do in fact include player crafting because the player is the one that gathers the materials and induces the crafting process. It is irrelevant whether the player is able to do this via his/her own skills, or by proxy through an NPC.
But would you actually like a system where NPC's do every aspect of the crafting for you? I'm not sure what this would look like, but I think it would be problematic. It would just be too random, and they'd probably mostly make stuff you don't want. Plus, it's just no fun. In the end, the effect would just be that of the Diablo 2 shopkeepers.
I think that IF they include a crafting system, it's most fun for the player to have an active roll in it. You can determine the materials you look for and what should happen with them. When Blizzard says the player is not crafting, they're not referring to the effort involved, but to the supposed skills of your character. They should have better said: "your character is not doing the actual crafting".
But would you actually like a system where NPC's do every aspect of the crafting for you? I'm not sure what this would look like, but I think it would be problematic. It would just be too random, and they'd probably mostly make stuff you don't want. Plus, it's just no fun. In the end, the effect would just be that of the Diablo 2 shopkeepers.
I think that IF they include a crafting system, it's most fun for the player to have an active roll in it. You can determine the materials you look for and what should happen with them. When Blizzard says the player is not crafting, they're not referring to the effort involved, but to the supposed skills of your character. They should have better said: "your character is not doing the actual crafting".
Apologies Frostbite, I enjoy long intelectual discussions. For the most part, we agree, and I can concede on the material gathering aspect of the system, but...
Actually the player is the mechanism by which the actual crafting is done. As I said in my original post, what Jay is referring to is not factual provided that the Artisan isn't the one clicking buttons (Obviously how could he?). To clear up a previous comment though, never did I intend to suggest a system wherein the player is sidelined to a total npc crafing system, and I agree that such a system would not be conducive to a fun experience. Once again, let me state that I like the Artisan system, and my dissension is not with the system itself, but rather how it is being portrayed.
Likewise, at the bottom of the Vendor window on the left side of the the screen there is a "Craft Item" button, that once pressed (obviously the player has to press it) will induce the crafting process. But now, I pose a question. If the Artisan were removed from this exact mechanic, what changes would occur? I would say very little if anything. Therefore, the player is the one that presses the Craft Item button to induce the crafting process. Now really, who is crafting here?
Their intentions with artisans was not to get rid of crafting. They want you to craft and create your own items. what they didn't want is for it to be consuming of time. Here is the difference:
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron axe
...
...
Created iron axe
-or-
salvage
salvage
create iron axe
Both ways you are crafting but the artisan system allows you to do it with minimal stopping of action.
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So, recently I found and watched the Artisan release video on Youtube. Now, while I do like this approach, much was made about the 'hero' not having to actually craft items. I found this a bit perplexing because, aren't you the 'player' still the one appropriating and adding materials and items into the mix, and clicking the associated 'make' button? If that's so, how is the player not crafting? Perhaps what they might mean by the player not having 'a second job' so to speak, is instead avoiding having to acquire specific skills or train specific skills? But still isn't that still the same thing with a different name? Puttah posting below, summed this up nicely, "Even the added feature of having to buy the skills to craft in wow doesn't seem any different to buying a higher grade artisan." Great point Puttah!
I think the attributable phrase, "...we felt that the idea that the player would have a side job [of crafting]... , ...didn't really fit the tone of a diablo game." might have more sense if the Artisan was able take care of all the crafting without having any input from the player. Now while that probably wouldn't be any fun, it is more descriptive of what Jay is stating.
In the end, if the player is contributing materials and is conducive and participatory in the crafting process, they are ipso facto 'crafting'. Granted this is a game of semantics, but the entire "heroic characters shouldn't have to craft" argument is filled with falsehoods, erroneous statements, misconceptions and probably quite a few stereotypes. An RPG (by definition) has to have some form of a crafting system (of which the player is participatory) or the end result is third person shooter/dungeon crawler.
It takes a small amount of time to make in that time you can go out and hunt while your artisan crafts the item. That is the difference between you crafting the item and them crafting the item for you.
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The 'feel' is totally different though. Like this they kind of avoid the 'jack of all trades' feel to your character. Your character is just supposed to become really good at slaying monsters.
It definitely worked on me! Thats some clever use of psychological dominance that they have always possessed over me. This is why I am a diablo fan
Their intentions with artisans was not to get rid of crafting. They want you to craft and create your own items. what they didn't want is for it to be consuming of time. Here is the difference:
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron axe
...
...
Created iron axe
-or-
salvage
salvage
create iron axe
Both ways you are crafting but the artisan system allows you to do it with minimal stopping of action.
So really, they haven't gotten rid of crafting but instead they've just shortened the process.
It should be more like:
kill creep >>> iron ore >>> process >>> iron bar
(repeat)
.
.
.
iron bars >>> process >>> iron sword
VERSUS
kill creep >>> iron sword >>> process (salvage) >>> iron ore
(repeat)
.
.
.
iron ore >>> process (artisan) >>> iron sword +
The overall design really isn't any different, but the clear separator is that the salvaging and artisan process is much faster than the usual crafting process of MMO's. I guess it's Blizzards way of playing with words.
Well, Blizzard never claimed artisans to not be crafting. In fact, they often referred to the system as their crafting system. They just did not want it to be time consuming like it is in mmo's
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[quote=ScyberDragon;/comments/359963]
Their intentions with artisans was not to get rid of crafting. They want you to craft and create your own items. what they didn't want is for it to be consuming of time. Here is the difference:
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron axe
...
...
Created iron axe
-or-
salvage
salvage
create iron axe
Both ways you are crafting but the artisan system allows you to do it with minimal stopping of action.
I also think thats what Jay W was trying to say... Also the fact that u no longer craft by your self, but instead use a npc for it, kinda imerse u in the world, makes u interact with the towns people (much like D1 did, cause every NPC was so awesome, and well made, u just felt integrated with it... think about Griswold, he was like ur body blacksmith in town, and so on... also, D2 failed giving that to players... i actually didnt even care about town NPCs in D2...)
So thats it, its about making u not spend too much time crafting and also making u interact with npcs and get imersed in the story (Jay W also said the artisans video, that while u check the artisants u might also want to check the `gossip` to know whats going on in the world, that along with the fact that blizzard said they are really pushing story telling mechanics, to make u care about every single piece of gossip and info given in play and stop skiping `talks` like u did in D2)
If he said character, you couldn't argue. The character finds stuff and says "Make this." So 'they' craft it for them.
Since he said player, you assume he meant the person playing the game, and thought "Hey it's the same kind of thing, just I have to go to town now." Which isn't entirely true, but for the most part yeah.
So... he just wasn't clear enough for you mister picky. To answer what would happen if the artisans were gone, you would be left with a lot of crafting materials and no means to craft it. See I can be picky too.
But hey, you're right, you have to tell people what you want to get it. Kudos.
Why would you even make this topic when you agree with it? It sounds to me that you don't like it and want a system where the player isn't involved at all.
Well still I think blizzard didn't totally lie to us. Granted, yes you are the one actually doing the crafting, but there are two differences (already mentioned before):
1) Like this, crafting can take some time without being burdensome or boring to the player. If I'm not mistaken, the demo video is sped up for demo purposes. I think it will be like this: we go to town, make the artisan start crafting and come back later to pick up our stuff. That's one important way in which you are not doing the crafting: the artisan is doing the most time-consuming part while you can do other stuff.
2) Even if you have to press an interface button, it's actually as if you order the artisan to craft for you. Couldn't that kinda be like it was sometimes done in past times? You obtain some materials and ask a skilled person to turn them into a useful object. So if you see pressing the button as ordering the NPC to make stuff out of the resources you found while doing the thing you do best, your character isn't crafting at all!
I'd like to start by saying that I appreciate everyone's opinions and don't think that anyone can necessarily be right or wrong about this, but instead, let's try to look at things a different way.
One thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is that artisans also serve the fantastic feature of being a gold sink. I have posted about how excited I am about Blizzard's attempts to make gold useful in D3. I think that artisans do this in an effective and logical manner. I think that the following scenario fits into the concept of a Diablo game:
Hero goes about and fights demons and such. The latter die and drop loot which can be wearable items or crafting components. The wearable items can be broken down into crafting components if desired. Then the components can be given to an NPC (the artisan) whose speciality is combining said components to create useful items for a fee because it is his or her profession, not the hero's; the hero's job is killing monsters. What is created by NPC might actually be useful enough to be worn by Hero.... Process repeats itself... Occasionally really fantastic blueprints are found on corpses by hero and returned to the specialist (the artisan) for incorporation into his or her repertoire.
Thus we already have a few differences: The first being that each crafted item not only requires an investment of components but also gold. Second, crafted items are ordered from the artisan such that the order is carried out (we don't know how long it will take, but from what I can understand, much longer than it did in the demo video) by the artisan while the Hero is occupied doing other things. Third, different characters have different specialities: the player character (hero) is an expert user of items (and magic) and slayer of demons; the artisan's life's work is crafting items that are so good that they can be used by the legendary monster-slayer that is the hero. I personally feel that the last bit adds a lot to the feeling of epic-ness of the items and the character using them.
Also items are not crafted in D3 for the sake of improving the crafting abilities as was the case with crafting in WoW where a player was almost forced to create a bunch of items that they probably didn't need so that their character could become a more skilled crafter. The proposed mechanic in D3 appears sensible. If the character wants the artisan to practice her skills, he throws some raw materials at her and pays her to practice her skills. She practices, levels up, and from then on can make some better stuff. At the end of the day, the player's inventory isn't full of junk that was just created with the hope that his character's enchanting skill would increase by a point or two.
I understand that functionally, the character collects items and then clicks a button to make the crafter produce the resulting item. However, I feel that the crafting mechanics that they have proposed for artisans in D3 seem to make a lot more sense than they did in other games (WoW or D2 for instance) and/or at least fit a lot better into the Diablo world.
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All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
- Ernest Rutherford
they didn't change the process. in most cases in games that include crafting, it's "farm the parts needed and create". In Diablo III it's going to be pretty much the same.
the player will still do those things. but it wont have the same feel, as say in MMOs cause "the hero" wont do all these things. his followers will. that's more or less the idea as Jay Wilson said it in his Artisan introduction video.
The main benefit of it gameplay-wise is that you can queue up multiple jobs for multiple artisans, and your actual hero doesn't have to make them. So even though each thing takes like 3 seconds, or maybe longer for later game items, longer than that, those seconds can add up, so it allows you to instead continue questing and come back for the items. So you do have to get the money to upgrade your artisans, and the actual materials for them to make stuff with, but you don't have to invest any time to crafting. So yes it is similar to WoW, and many other RPG's crafting systems, as you supply the gold and materials, just without having to sit there for like 15 minutes smelting your 1000 copper bars.
multiple items salvaged = the best thing i saw in this video. one of the annoying things in WoW is hoarding stuff and disenchanting them for components (quite similar to salvage). Only one at a time. gonna be awesome, i hope we get something about ETA of the beta in this Blizzcon.
i hope i get in the beta so i wont have to worry about when it launches
but yeah, its better if it takes a little longer and it appears as bug free as possible.
I think the attributable phrase, "...we felt that the idea that the player would have a side job [of crafting]... , ...didn't really fit the tone of a diablo game." might have more sense if the Artisan was able take care of all the crafting without having any input from the player. Now while that probably wouldn't be any fun, it is more descriptive of what Jay is stating.
In the end, if the player is contributing materials and is conducive and participatory in the crafting process, they are ipso facto 'crafting'. Granted this is a game of semantics, but the entire "heroic characters shouldn't have to craft" argument is filled with falsehoods, erroneous statements, misconceptions and probably quite a few stereotypes. An RPG (by definition) has to have some form of a crafting system (of which the player is participatory) or the end result is third person shooter/dungeon crawler.
I guess what blizzard means is that it makes more sense to have a specialized npc be the crafter, instead of adding also that to your character. But I agree that from a gameplay point of view the differences are minor (only now you have to go to your caravan before you can craft). The 'feel' is totally different though. Now you have a bunch of specialists following you, who can get extremely good at what they do. Like this they kind of avoid the 'jack of all trades' feel to your character. Your character is just supposed to become really good at slaying monsters.
To be quite honest, I expected to be flamed. But thanks for not doing so.
I totally agree with you in that the 'feel' is totally different, and that it avoids a 'jack of all trades' type of character. However, my dissension is in the fact that Jay has stated that the player is not crafting, when in fact he/she actually is. It is a clever use of psychological factors to subtly persuade the player into feeling that they are not crafting, and I give them kudos for that, but in the end it is still player induced crafting.
I don't disagree with you at all, and I really do like how they've added craftspeople into the game, and I also agree with your opinion of the Horadric Cube. Cratfspeople do create a different feel to the process, however I will quote myself, "[A]ren't you the 'player' still the one appropriating and adding materials and items into the mix, and clicking the associated 'make' button? If that's so, how is the player not crafting?" It simply seems disingenuous to state that the player isn't crafting when they obviously are, regardless of the associated feel or mechanic used to achieve it.
To get to the heart of my point, I am attempting to point out the false notion that a person might like or dislike a game on the basis of whether player crafting is included or not included. Just like this system, and to cite another, Guild Wars, they do in fact include player crafting because the player is the one that gathers the materials and induces the crafting process. It is irrelevant whether the player is able to do this via his/her own skills, or by proxy through an NPC.
I think that IF they include a crafting system, it's most fun for the player to have an active roll in it. You can determine the materials you look for and what should happen with them. When Blizzard says the player is not crafting, they're not referring to the effort involved, but to the supposed skills of your character. They should have better said: "your character is not doing the actual crafting".
Apologies Frostbite, I enjoy long intelectual discussions. For the most part, we agree, and I can concede on the material gathering aspect of the system, but...
Actually the player is the mechanism by which the actual crafting is done. As I said in my original post, what Jay is referring to is not factual provided that the Artisan isn't the one clicking buttons (Obviously how could he?). To clear up a previous comment though, never did I intend to suggest a system wherein the player is sidelined to a total npc crafing system, and I agree that such a system would not be conducive to a fun experience. Once again, let me state that I like the Artisan system, and my dissension is not with the system itself, but rather how it is being portrayed.
Likewise, at the bottom of the Vendor window on the left side of the the screen there is a "Craft Item" button, that once pressed (obviously the player has to press it) will induce the crafting process. But now, I pose a question. If the Artisan were removed from this exact mechanic, what changes would occur? I would say very little if anything. Therefore, the player is the one that presses the Craft Item button to induce the crafting process. Now really, who is crafting here?
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron axe
...
...
Created iron axe
-or-
salvage
salvage
create iron axe
Both ways you are crafting but the artisan system allows you to do it with minimal stopping of action.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
It takes a small amount of time to make in that time you can go out and hunt while your artisan crafts the item. That is the difference between you crafting the item and them crafting the item for you.
It definitely worked on me! Thats some clever use of psychological dominance that they have always possessed over me. This is why I am a diablo fan
So really, they haven't gotten rid of crafting but instead they've just shortened the process.
It should be more like:
kill creep >>> iron ore >>> process >>> iron bar
(repeat)
.
.
.
iron bars >>> process >>> iron sword
VERSUS
kill creep >>> iron sword >>> process (salvage) >>> iron ore
(repeat)
.
.
.
iron ore >>> process (artisan) >>> iron sword +
The overall design really isn't any different, but the clear separator is that the salvaging and artisan process is much faster than the usual crafting process of MMO's. I guess it's Blizzards way of playing with words.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
Their intentions with artisans was not to get rid of crafting. They want you to craft and create your own items. what they didn't want is for it to be consuming of time. Here is the difference:
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron...
...
...
Iron created
creating iron axe
...
...
Created iron axe
-or-
salvage
salvage
create iron axe
Both ways you are crafting but the artisan system allows you to do it with minimal stopping of action.
I also think thats what Jay W was trying to say... Also the fact that u no longer craft by your self, but instead use a npc for it, kinda imerse u in the world, makes u interact with the towns people (much like D1 did, cause every NPC was so awesome, and well made, u just felt integrated with it... think about Griswold, he was like ur body blacksmith in town, and so on... also, D2 failed giving that to players... i actually didnt even care about town NPCs in D2...)
So thats it, its about making u not spend too much time crafting and also making u interact with npcs and get imersed in the story (Jay W also said the artisans video, that while u check the artisants u might also want to check the `gossip` to know whats going on in the world, that along with the fact that blizzard said they are really pushing story telling mechanics, to make u care about every single piece of gossip and info given in play and stop skiping `talks` like u did in D2)
If he said character, you couldn't argue. The character finds stuff and says "Make this." So 'they' craft it for them.
Since he said player, you assume he meant the person playing the game, and thought "Hey it's the same kind of thing, just I have to go to town now." Which isn't entirely true, but for the most part yeah.
So... he just wasn't clear enough for you mister picky. To answer what would happen if the artisans were gone, you would be left with a lot of crafting materials and no means to craft it. See I can be picky too.
But hey, you're right, you have to tell people what you want to get it. Kudos.
Why would you even make this topic when you agree with it? It sounds to me that you don't like it and want a system where the player isn't involved at all.
1) Like this, crafting can take some time without being burdensome or boring to the player. If I'm not mistaken, the demo video is sped up for demo purposes. I think it will be like this: we go to town, make the artisan start crafting and come back later to pick up our stuff. That's one important way in which you are not doing the crafting: the artisan is doing the most time-consuming part while you can do other stuff.
2) Even if you have to press an interface button, it's actually as if you order the artisan to craft for you. Couldn't that kinda be like it was sometimes done in past times? You obtain some materials and ask a skilled person to turn them into a useful object. So if you see pressing the button as ordering the NPC to make stuff out of the resources you found while doing the thing you do best, your character isn't crafting at all!
One thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is that artisans also serve the fantastic feature of being a gold sink. I have posted about how excited I am about Blizzard's attempts to make gold useful in D3. I think that artisans do this in an effective and logical manner. I think that the following scenario fits into the concept of a Diablo game:
Hero goes about and fights demons and such. The latter die and drop loot which can be wearable items or crafting components. The wearable items can be broken down into crafting components if desired. Then the components can be given to an NPC (the artisan) whose speciality is combining said components to create useful items for a fee because it is his or her profession, not the hero's; the hero's job is killing monsters. What is created by NPC might actually be useful enough to be worn by Hero.... Process repeats itself... Occasionally really fantastic blueprints are found on corpses by hero and returned to the specialist (the artisan) for incorporation into his or her repertoire.
Thus we already have a few differences: The first being that each crafted item not only requires an investment of components but also gold. Second, crafted items are ordered from the artisan such that the order is carried out (we don't know how long it will take, but from what I can understand, much longer than it did in the demo video) by the artisan while the Hero is occupied doing other things. Third, different characters have different specialities: the player character (hero) is an expert user of items (and magic) and slayer of demons; the artisan's life's work is crafting items that are so good that they can be used by the legendary monster-slayer that is the hero. I personally feel that the last bit adds a lot to the feeling of epic-ness of the items and the character using them.
Also items are not crafted in D3 for the sake of improving the crafting abilities as was the case with crafting in WoW where a player was almost forced to create a bunch of items that they probably didn't need so that their character could become a more skilled crafter. The proposed mechanic in D3 appears sensible. If the character wants the artisan to practice her skills, he throws some raw materials at her and pays her to practice her skills. She practices, levels up, and from then on can make some better stuff. At the end of the day, the player's inventory isn't full of junk that was just created with the hope that his character's enchanting skill would increase by a point or two.
I understand that functionally, the character collects items and then clicks a button to make the crafter produce the resulting item. However, I feel that the crafting mechanics that they have proposed for artisans in D3 seem to make a lot more sense than they did in other games (WoW or D2 for instance) and/or at least fit a lot better into the Diablo world.
- Ernest Rutherford
the player will still do those things. but it wont have the same feel, as say in MMOs cause "the hero" wont do all these things. his followers will. that's more or less the idea as Jay Wilson said it in his Artisan introduction video.
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but yeah, its better if it takes a little longer and it appears as bug free as possible.