This thread seems to be getting a tad off topic talking about NM and Hell and about how much skill or who should be able to get where. I thought this thread was made to discuss the lacking of a death penalty in normal. Which I actually like.
It is an easy way for Blizzard to toughen up normal. If there's no DP then they can kill you more. Removing the DP makes it much easier for casual gamers to be able to at least beat the game once and get the so called "full experience" while at the same time making it tougher because there would be less of a reason for them not to make it too tough.
If there were some annoying DP in normal then they would focus more on balancing it giving you more of a fair chance, but without one they can just say "Well you can usually do this with out dying... close enough." with out it having a major effect on your actual progression.
I invite a chance to a tougher first play through and believe that no DP is a great way to give us a challenge while still giving the casual gamers a fair chance the first time through.
If you consider it to be easier because you can die multiple times and still proceed. I think you should think for a second. Like what the previous poster said difficulty can easily be measured by the amount of times you retried something or died. Also I believe bosses won't be as easily to take advantage of with respawns.
I guess I'll express my opinion about NM/Hell since that's where this topic seem to have gone.
Nightmare was actually tough to me as a casual gamer because I usually got there around my low 30s with no real build, which really sucked lol. As I learned more about the game though it was just too easy for most builds to get through with crap gear. I think if you have some good rares from lucky drops or w/e with a nice build. Nightmare shouldn't be too hard. Nightmare is a stage that gets you prepared for hell imo. It should make you fear death much more than normal and make it more of a possibility. That said, with good gear most mobs shouldn't be a threat except for bosses, super uniques (Thousand Pounder dude and what not), and some unique monsters with killer enchants or a specific monster that's tough enough w/o being a unique.
If you have crap gear, but you're a skilled player and know what you're doing you should progress a tad slower, but at a steady rate. Skill and knowledge will be more balanced in D3 it looks like. Seeing how much tougher it is to escape and some of the nice enchants monsters can come with. Even with skill i think a vortex or teleporting enchanted monster can kill even the most skilled players occasionally.
About Hell... It should just be hard. Idk what to say besides that. Casual gamers should MAYBE be able to finish it with some of the best gear, but seeing how they won't be able to get it... I don't think many casuals will be able to beat it. Skilled players should be able to beat it with good gear. A few rares maybe a unique or two with a crated item or so. Nothing special just a nice set of items with a good build and a skilled player should be able to beat it. Otherwise what's the point of end game content?
Oh and also in hell, everyone should die at least once their first time through.
And what i mean by casual is sort of like a noob... Not as skilled as most or have as much knowledge about the game and doesn't put as much time into the game. I don't understand how I could have been so crappy at D2 when I started, so I use that as a measurement of casual players. I just played the game leisurely and didn't care to look up anything or think too much about builds. There are other people who may consider themselves casual players, but don't play like it at all, so I wouldn't include them. Just because you don't play much or don't put much into a game shouldn't classify you as casual. Sort of like how I play D2 now. I play it once a week or so "casually", but I breeze through it because I'm not a casual player. I think I'm sort of ranting about it now, so I'll just say casual players are new people to the game that don't invest much into it. If you have an account here, chances are you're not casual lol.
P.S. By unique monsters I mean the enchanted ones of course. Idk if they're calling it something else or what. I know boneash, countess, etc... were super uniques, so I assume the random ones are just called uniques.
You get a win because of a random buff you had no idea you'd get... ya that sounds great.
Sarcasm aside, you would really have to nerf the orbs towards the builds that would get the most out of them. Making them pretty useless to most classes. Also what if you accidentally pick up an IAS orb as a wizard? Then your teammate will chew you out because he's a barbarian.
The reason health can be done is because it doesn't really help too much and it's not focused towards a certain class or build. Also health orbs could hurt whoever grabs them because people will expect you to be there and will be ready to shoot spells or whirlwind towards it. So depending on your skill and timing health orbs can be good or bad to your health. Which roughly evens out and supports the skilled players. For other orbs some damage probably won't be enough of a negative to even it out.
The orbs are something everyone can use giving nobody an outright advantage right out of the gate. Therefore, it wouldn't really have any significant effect on how people build their characters and their gear. You would still want to have the best gear.
It may not change your build, but it will definitely change the way people play. Health orbs is already pushing it if you go any further it can get rather hard to balance and very annoying to play... There will be people who just tries to hide until a power up pops up or someone who's about to lose, but luckily gets a power up perfect for his build and wins. Which is just wrong... Luck should have a minimum factor in PvP.
Edit: May be a nice idea for custom though, but for rank there's no chance.
If he said character, you couldn't argue. The character finds stuff and says "Make this." So 'they' craft it for them.
Since he said player, you assume he meant the person playing the game, and thought "Hey it's the same kind of thing, just I have to go to town now." Which isn't entirely true, but for the most part yeah.
So... he just wasn't clear enough for you mister picky. To answer what would happen if the artisans were gone, you would be left with a lot of crafting materials and no means to craft it. See I can be picky too.
But hey, you're right, you have to tell people what you want to get it. Kudos.
Why would you even make this topic when you agree with it? It sounds to me that you don't like it and want a system where the player isn't involved at all.
Is this an argument about one Difficulty in one mode? Seriously all this over normal softcore... Beat it in two days and you no longer have to worry about weak death penalties. Also just so you all know, it's been said Diablo 3 IS harder than D2, at least in Act 1 Normal. Seriously though, last I checked hardcore gamers couldn't careless about normal, so why the hell the mention of skill and all? Diablo 3 is being made so casual gamers can be satisfied aka beat normal, eventually. After that all bets are off, and most casuals probably won't get to hell with out help.
Diablo 3 will be focusing more on the skill aspect than Diablo 2; I'm sure you can go find a quote about this. Including more active skills and more combos means there's a lot more room for mistakes and the sort. So it's bad news for casuals down the stretch, but there's no penalty for them so they should finish eventually.
Beating Hell will probably be more rewarding in D3 because of the worse rushing due to no TPs, but of course a friend can still help a newb, at his level, beat hell. So that means they'll probably throw in some stat recorders for each character/difficulty, some skill achievements, and that's about it. The bulk of the skillful players most likely will be focusing on PvP.
If you can't handle them letting casuals be able to beat the game at least once and still actually making the game harder, then you have some issues.
What's this about HC? Wasn't it confirmed to be in? Even if it wasn't, it has pretty damn good chance. If it's in Diablo 3 I'm positive it'll be exactly the same. No changes to drops/difficulty, just you die, you're dead.
Edit: Heh... Did you all mean hardcore referring to people's gaming? My bad.
More weapon variety would be nice... There are class specific items like orbs and fist weapons. I don't think there has been an example of a barbarian specific anything though. He may just be able to use weapons sooner. Same for the witch doctor, I don't recall class specific anything... He can use any weapon that's not class specific though, which means you'll see Witch Doctors with mauls, lol.
Seeing how all those weapons require a considerable amount of training to be efficient with them I would assume that the monk would be the only one able to use any of them. Although the barbarian is a weapons master, finesse just isn't his style. So adding class specific to a class that already has a set doesn't seem likely; especially when everyone else is lacking badly in that department.
I can just imagine the barbarian cutting him self with that whip when he goes berserk. xD
So just want to clarify with you DeathWingSC, you believe Trag'Oul does absolutely nothing no matter what or was that you agreeing with me? I said a cool cinematic and not a fight so you are agreeing in a sense. I see no problem with it really. Trag'Oul is the best way to show you how powerful you are, even though you can't beat him, his presence or interference in any way shows how powerful you are especially since Trag'Oul has never interfered before (in the games anyways).
P.S. Of course they're going to have big bad ass boss fights either way.
I think there would be a very good chance of some kind of intervention from Trag'Oul in a D3 expansion. The main point of D3 is to kill Diablo, and if Trag'Oul has to interfere then that will just make you feel weak, but what if Trag'Oul had to interfere because of you? The main feeling that the developers want you to feel is power and what could make you feel more powerful then having to have a being that transcends realities end your mission.
Trag'Oul is purely neutral which means he would just as soon help Diablo as he would with us if we needed help with maintaining good right? So that means he could easily fight the forces of good aka heaven/sanctuary if we were destroying hell itself. Think about it, if we're the most powerful, why wouldn't heaven use us as a weapon against hell? I think that's one of the few ways Trag'Oul could play a role.
That being said, I think it would fit better in an epic cinematic at the end of an expansion just as we strike to destroy the essence of terror/hate/destruction. Just imagine it, we would finally know something meaningful about the lore that the book readers don't!
I think it would just be simple to let the host/creator of the match have the ability to edit more settings before they create the game. Level restrictions, player restrictions, PKing allowed or not, etc... Also the ability to kick/ban ppl. A lot more efficient that way i think. I would imagine filters would be used to find certain games with settings to your liking so i think it'd be a good idea.
I think the only negative thing to come from ressing is the ressing itself. Anything to make some1 not want to res some1, even if they would be better off, isn't necessary. I think that it should be sort of like borderlands, where you're downed, but can still fight. That way the res feature will still be apparent in single player. As for multiplayer i think other people should be able to carry you until u recuperate. It would seem to be a lot of fun to run in the crowd of monsters to carry your friend out while the rest of ur party has your back. If it's just 2 players it'll still be helpful, pulling u away from monsters so u don't die. Also you should be able to attack, although with a penalty, maybe not being able to use skills or just slowed in everything. For the healing part, i think u should have to not get hit for 5 seconds and then be revived at partial health after another 5. That way u can incorporate tactics into ressing.
It just would be so awesome to be able to save your downed teammate in the middle of combat and still have him help u in the middle of the fight, not to mention it'll help keep it fast paced.
I think the main reason for them announcing it early was to kind of keep the attention of diablo fans. I'm pretty sure there were countless people hoping for a diablo 3, but was almost positive it wasn't going to be. Maybe they just felt like it would be nice to announce Diablo 3 and of course to get some feed back. Which makes me laugh when people insult their progress and all. And D3 was in Game Informer.
Also there is more strategy than you'd think market wise. I'm sure some old Diablo 2 fans either gave away or lost their game, but when hearing the news about Diablo 3, wanted to buy another copy. I'm pretty sure they were considering this, seeing how they doubled the price of the Battle Chest...
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It is an easy way for Blizzard to toughen up normal. If there's no DP then they can kill you more. Removing the DP makes it much easier for casual gamers to be able to at least beat the game once and get the so called "full experience" while at the same time making it tougher because there would be less of a reason for them not to make it too tough.
If there were some annoying DP in normal then they would focus more on balancing it giving you more of a fair chance, but without one they can just say "Well you can usually do this with out dying... close enough." with out it having a major effect on your actual progression.
I invite a chance to a tougher first play through and believe that no DP is a great way to give us a challenge while still giving the casual gamers a fair chance the first time through.
If you consider it to be easier because you can die multiple times and still proceed. I think you should think for a second. Like what the previous poster said difficulty can easily be measured by the amount of times you retried something or died. Also I believe bosses won't be as easily to take advantage of with respawns.
I guess I'll express my opinion about NM/Hell since that's where this topic seem to have gone.
Nightmare was actually tough to me as a casual gamer because I usually got there around my low 30s with no real build, which really sucked lol. As I learned more about the game though it was just too easy for most builds to get through with crap gear. I think if you have some good rares from lucky drops or w/e with a nice build. Nightmare shouldn't be too hard. Nightmare is a stage that gets you prepared for hell imo. It should make you fear death much more than normal and make it more of a possibility. That said, with good gear most mobs shouldn't be a threat except for bosses, super uniques (Thousand Pounder dude and what not), and some unique monsters with killer enchants or a specific monster that's tough enough w/o being a unique.
If you have crap gear, but you're a skilled player and know what you're doing you should progress a tad slower, but at a steady rate. Skill and knowledge will be more balanced in D3 it looks like. Seeing how much tougher it is to escape and some of the nice enchants monsters can come with. Even with skill i think a vortex or teleporting enchanted monster can kill even the most skilled players occasionally.
About Hell... It should just be hard. Idk what to say besides that. Casual gamers should MAYBE be able to finish it with some of the best gear, but seeing how they won't be able to get it... I don't think many casuals will be able to beat it. Skilled players should be able to beat it with good gear. A few rares maybe a unique or two with a crated item or so. Nothing special just a nice set of items with a good build and a skilled player should be able to beat it. Otherwise what's the point of end game content?
Oh and also in hell, everyone should die at least once their first time through.
And what i mean by casual is sort of like a noob... Not as skilled as most or have as much knowledge about the game and doesn't put as much time into the game. I don't understand how I could have been so crappy at D2 when I started, so I use that as a measurement of casual players. I just played the game leisurely and didn't care to look up anything or think too much about builds. There are other people who may consider themselves casual players, but don't play like it at all, so I wouldn't include them. Just because you don't play much or don't put much into a game shouldn't classify you as casual. Sort of like how I play D2 now. I play it once a week or so "casually", but I breeze through it because I'm not a casual player. I think I'm sort of ranting about it now, so I'll just say casual players are new people to the game that don't invest much into it. If you have an account here, chances are you're not casual lol.
P.S. By unique monsters I mean the enchanted ones of course. Idk if they're calling it something else or what. I know boneash, countess, etc... were super uniques, so I assume the random ones are just called uniques.
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Sarcasm aside, you would really have to nerf the orbs towards the builds that would get the most out of them. Making them pretty useless to most classes. Also what if you accidentally pick up an IAS orb as a wizard? Then your teammate will chew you out because he's a barbarian.
The reason health can be done is because it doesn't really help too much and it's not focused towards a certain class or build. Also health orbs could hurt whoever grabs them because people will expect you to be there and will be ready to shoot spells or whirlwind towards it. So depending on your skill and timing health orbs can be good or bad to your health. Which roughly evens out and supports the skilled players. For other orbs some damage probably won't be enough of a negative to even it out.
It may not change your build, but it will definitely change the way people play. Health orbs is already pushing it if you go any further it can get rather hard to balance and very annoying to play... There will be people who just tries to hide until a power up pops up or someone who's about to lose, but luckily gets a power up perfect for his build and wins. Which is just wrong... Luck should have a minimum factor in PvP.
Edit: May be a nice idea for custom though, but for rank there's no chance.
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If he said character, you couldn't argue. The character finds stuff and says "Make this." So 'they' craft it for them.
Since he said player, you assume he meant the person playing the game, and thought "Hey it's the same kind of thing, just I have to go to town now." Which isn't entirely true, but for the most part yeah.
So... he just wasn't clear enough for you mister picky. To answer what would happen if the artisans were gone, you would be left with a lot of crafting materials and no means to craft it. See I can be picky too.
But hey, you're right, you have to tell people what you want to get it. Kudos.
Why would you even make this topic when you agree with it? It sounds to me that you don't like it and want a system where the player isn't involved at all.
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Diablo 3 will be focusing more on the skill aspect than Diablo 2; I'm sure you can go find a quote about this. Including more active skills and more combos means there's a lot more room for mistakes and the sort. So it's bad news for casuals down the stretch, but there's no penalty for them so they should finish eventually.
Beating Hell will probably be more rewarding in D3 because of the worse rushing due to no TPs, but of course a friend can still help a newb, at his level, beat hell. So that means they'll probably throw in some stat recorders for each character/difficulty, some skill achievements, and that's about it. The bulk of the skillful players most likely will be focusing on PvP.
If you can't handle them letting casuals be able to beat the game at least once and still actually making the game harder, then you have some issues.
What's this about HC? Wasn't it confirmed to be in? Even if it wasn't, it has pretty damn good chance. If it's in Diablo 3 I'm positive it'll be exactly the same. No changes to drops/difficulty, just you die, you're dead.
Edit: Heh... Did you all mean hardcore referring to people's gaming? My bad.
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Seeing how all those weapons require a considerable amount of training to be efficient with them I would assume that the monk would be the only one able to use any of them. Although the barbarian is a weapons master, finesse just isn't his style. So adding class specific to a class that already has a set doesn't seem likely; especially when everyone else is lacking badly in that department.
I can just imagine the barbarian cutting him self with that whip when he goes berserk. xD
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P.S. Of course they're going to have big bad ass boss fights either way.
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Trag'Oul is purely neutral which means he would just as soon help Diablo as he would with us if we needed help with maintaining good right? So that means he could easily fight the forces of good aka heaven/sanctuary if we were destroying hell itself. Think about it, if we're the most powerful, why wouldn't heaven use us as a weapon against hell? I think that's one of the few ways Trag'Oul could play a role.
That being said, I think it would fit better in an epic cinematic at the end of an expansion just as we strike to destroy the essence of terror/hate/destruction. Just imagine it, we would finally know something meaningful about the lore that the book readers don't!
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It just would be so awesome to be able to save your downed teammate in the middle of combat and still have him help u in the middle of the fight, not to mention it'll help keep it fast paced.
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Also there is more strategy than you'd think market wise. I'm sure some old Diablo 2 fans either gave away or lost their game, but when hearing the news about Diablo 3, wanted to buy another copy. I'm pretty sure they were considering this, seeing how they doubled the price of the Battle Chest...