What kind of stupid argument is that? Can anyone go and make their own game? Hell no. Can anyone go and mod Oblivion? Yes. So why can't a huge company like Blizzard make a side-team that would make an editor for their huge game? It could prolong the life of the game like crazy. Where do you think stuff like DotA comes from? Or even for DII we have Eastern Sun mod - that's even without a normal editor...
Editors prove that the game is more than just to sell.
i dunno how to explain it but i understand why wc3 has an editor but i don't see the need for one with diablo since its a totally different type of game, just cuz other games like diablo have one, doesn't mean diablo should, or would do better with it... as long as it doesn't affect battle.net then i dont really care at all...
we might as well make it like wc3 and we can select which map we want to play on instead of making a game which loads the whole map... like act 1 or act 2 then we can have custom maps...
i never even heard of all these other mods until now but i don't plan on trying them (i keep playing d2 even without them)
I think the crux of the whole "world modding" argument is that they use terrain randomizers, as stated in the gameplay video. I can understand modding terrain for yourself, but for online play, I think that it would be a travesty.
I would not like to play other player's created terrain that was rigged against/for you. I just would like to play the game as intended. If you want to mod it client side for your single player fun, so be it.
Scrap the editor. Just focus on mass amounts of items and endless customization. Thats what people want. They want to be finding new items and cool stuff with their friends all the time. They dont wanna get bored of the same old thing. Even with Diablo2 and collecting all the items in the game I still found it fun. Im just saying keep the good stuff going and I will be playing d3 for years.
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Diablo 3 will be my addiction for another large chunk of my life
i dunno how to explain it but i understand why wc3 has an editor but i don't see the need for one with diablo since its a totally different type of game
Editors don't depend on types of games. Editors are genre-transferrable... the need is that it will make Diablo live longer. I could see so many possibilities for DII if it was openly moddable
Quote from Eve"" »
I think the crux of the whole "world modding" argument is that they use terrain randomizers, as stated in the gameplay video. I can understand modding terrain for yourself, but for online play, I think that it would be a travesty.
a) modding doesn't affect online play. Most it will do is create a private portal like DotA did.
I really wouldn't mind a world editor, but I don't think Blizzard should focus on making the game moddable. Diablo 2 didn't come with any tools and look how long its LASTING. It's proof that a game doesnt need mods for longevity.
Note that I am note against the idea at all though.
A) modding doesn't affect online play. Most it will do is create a private portal like DotA did.
DotA is online.
And if you've noticed, WCIII has the platform where that would be possible. Diablo III is obviously not an RTS, and should not mirror one. If battle.net offered a separate portal for modded D3 games... I think that would take a lot away from the game's community.
Maybe some people would find i awesome, but it would be a necessity to keep it separate from those joining games to progress their characters.
Also, the characters used to join these player-created games would have to be separate characters in general. This is why WCIII was able to do this - all heros started at level 1 (or whatever stated level the modded game had), etc etc etc. Imagine just joining some player-modded games, tricking out your character, then heading back to normal gameplay.
And if you've noticed, WCIII has the platform where that would be possible. Diablo III is obviously [I]not[/I'] an RTS, and should not mirror one.
What platform does WCIII has that mekes it so special.
It doesn't matter what genre it is. FPS, RPG, RTS are all moddable. If you can't imagine how let Blizzard do it.
Quote from "Eve" »
If battle.net offered a separate portal for modded D3 games... I think that would take a lot away from the game's community.
Great. Don't offer one then! No one's making you, if you are that selfish.
Quote from "Eve" »
Imagine just joining some player-modded games, tricking out your character, then heading back to normal gameplay.
How the heck do you transfer a lan character to Bnet????????
Quote from "Eve" »
There's a pretty big problem there.
It's not a problem for any other game. Again. Wake up. There are more games out there than Diablo II and WoW. They did this. It doesn't conflict with multiplayer, in fact, doesn't even touch multiplayer. DooM III had tons of TC's made for it, they don't dest mutliplayer. Source engine had tons of tons of tons of mods. This is possible in Diablo, and it's for Single Player and private servers. I don't need battle.net to support it, no one does. If something becomes popular enough and Bnet decides to support it, that's none of your concern.
Yah only time will tell. If Blizzard implements it, it will obviously implement it in a proper way.... I just don't understand who they said it would be hard because of d2's random content. there are pre-set, pre-created maps in d2 so obviously a world editor would help create those.
In diablo 2 you could create a new random level by making the proper entries in levels.txt and lvlmaze.txt... Random dungeons don't need a world editor, but Warcraft 3 had A LOT of features that wennt beyond creating a map.
Diablo 2 was very easy to mod, make changes and add to it. but creating your own maps was difficult, and any hardcoded features were virtually impossible to change, such as quests
The ignorance of some people never ceases to amaze me.
1.) A world editor is not something only created for Warcraft 3, think outside of Blizzard moron, there are map editors created for FPS games, as well as action rpg games such as titan's quest, as well as rpg games, such as nwn. Why do you seem to feel an editor iws only exclusive to rts in general? and one rts for that matter like wc3 is the only game with an editor.
2.) Not all maps are random, ever boss or major map in diablo 2 was pre-set not random, I can count over 20 maps in diablo 2 that were NOT randomly generated.
3.) It will NOT be exploitable, obviously you will not be able to create character in a mod or custom campaign and then log them on to an official battle.net server game
4.) Diablo 2 was user friendly for modding and did have a fan created map editor and numerous tools, it did not STEAL the community from diablo 2 and was not used to explot battle.net... Render the game useless for modders and we will probably stick with sacred 2 and play Diablo 3 a few times through and quit, so you'd be losing your community either way, either they'll go play custom mods when they get bored of the game or they'll quit and go to another game. Mine as well get a longer life span for more fans out of Diablo 3, so stfu and quit knocking the modding community who probably showed more dedication and put more hours into diablo 2 then most battle.net players.
What we need is constructive arguements why you support or oppose it. The majority of reasons I have seen in this thread and no votes have been based entirly based on sheer and utter ignorance... Bottom line if blizzard doesn't do it, the fans will even if it takes years. They did in Diablo 2 and I'm sure will be up for the challenge again... But it would be nice for Blizzard to do it, because they have proved that they not only make top of the line games, but top of the line editors as well that are very user friendly.
A world editor is not simply used for creating maps is one aspect people don't seem to get... A world editor can be used to create quests, events, monsters, items, weapons, armor, spells, skills, AI, classes, etc. In Diablo 2, all that was possible, except quests, events and AI creation but it was done in the form of modidying excel sheets... The map editor was created by a 3rd party, but contributed greatly to modding.
We need to remeber, not all maps are randomly generated, yes they're cool and have their place, but even Blizzard stated not ALL maps will be randomy generated, some will be static... I am assuming these are the more epic floors/areas with big bosses or the end of certain quests like Diablo 2...
For my mod, I had about a 66% / 33% ratio of random vs pre-set dungeons... pre-set dungeons you have more control over gauntlet style layouts, intelligent boss/champ placement, treasure chests, traps etc... Be open minded and think. A world editor leads to a lot of possabilities beyond map generation.
Diablo 2 did have modding and a map editor with a lot of awesome mods available, but most features were discovered by fans, not given to us by Blizzard. But blizzard has proven they can make kick ass toolsets, so I;d rather see them do it in all there glory.
The myths? Many games have world editors, not just WC3, nor RTS games... It will not steal the base community of D3 which will be huge, people go to mods when they get bored of the regular game, without mods they'll just quit and move on at this stage. It wont be exploitable because blizzard wont let it, mods prolly wont be allowed on b.net and if they are, a modded character will not be able to cross over to any other mod or a regular ladder game obviously...
Yah, a fan based editor or modding tools would be no where near as good or as powerful as an official one and that is my fear... while many people created modding tools for D2 and a map editor, they defiently had their limitations.
A world editor or some official modding tools please.
Let me start be saying this is a long post, but if your interested and have a good argument of why your for, or against a world editor or official modding tools for Diablo 3 then please read through this entirely and feel free to chip in.
I am a modder of Diablo 2 and created the multiplayer mod known as Hell Unleashed http://arimyth.planetdiablo.gamespy.com/hell.htm I am a strong support of the Diablo 2 modding community, most found at the Phrozen Keep http://phrozenkeep.planetdiablo.gamespy.com/ where many exciting D2 mods have been developed, such as Eastern Sun and Back to Hell Fire. I invested 2 years developing Hell Unleashed for D2, it was challenging and exciting, but greatly appreciated by the community that supported it.
I want to see this trend continue into Diablo 3. D2 was left very open ended and fairly user friendly to modding, but there were no official tools or support for it from Blizzard, so the modding fan base had to create many 3rd party tools on their own including a map editor. Although its been over 8 years since Diablo 2 was released, people are still creating plugins, modding tools and uncovering secrets within D2. As it stands now we are able to create monsters, maps, spells, skills, recipes, runewords, weapons, armor, items, import graphics, sounds and music, change text and dialogue, and re-invent the 7 existing classes. What we cannot do in Diablo 2 without great difficulty are add new classes, add or change quests mechanics and rewards, hirelings, add events or triggers and a few other hardcoded aspects of the game.
I have seen the arguments of why people are opposed to this.
1.) This isnt WC3, D2 doesnt need to be modded or have an editor
While D2 had no official tools, tools were developed and the D2 modding community is still growing today, so obviously a large fan base exists Lots of games have official editors or tools that arent RTS Titans Quest, Neverwinter Nights, most FPS games Even now the upcoming Sacred 2 hack n slash stated theyre developing a type of world/quest editor for the game that they plan to release sometime after the game hits the shelves.
2.) Mods and custom maps would be easily exploitable
Not true, Blizzard will simply not allow mods on battle.net for D3, just as they currently dont with D2 or if they did offer mods on battle.net, characters would obviously not be transferable from one mod to another, separate ladders. In my Hell Unleashed mod, HU characters were not even compatible with regular D2 or any other mods and vice versa due to so many changed mechanics and custom stuff. So it obviously would not be exploitable.
3.) Mods will divide the community and thin group play
I highly doubt D3 will ever suffer from a lack of players Besides, a lot of people move to mods or mod creation once they become bored of the game, thats my experience and at that point they either quit and move on to a different game or play or develop mods. If D2 modding would have not been possible , I would have quit a few months after LoD I enjoyed the original campaign, but eventually I found it very redundant, challenges and pointless. Finding loot by killing Baal for the 1000s time is not my idea of keeping things interesting. Modding helps to hold the community to a game longer where we can try out new characters, new maps, new bosses, new gear and new skills. Most people who grow bored of the game will go to mods or simply leave the game.
4.) Diablo maps are randomly generated, we dont need a map editor
Well its true the majority of maps in Diablo are randomly generated, there are many that are not. Memorable maps such as the cathedral, the throne room, the chaos sanctuary are not randomly generated and they are generally the more epic maps I enjoy both a mix of random dungeons and static dungeons. Hell Unleashed was prolly 75% random maps, 25% I designed fully be hand. Its a good balance, in static maps you can create more intelligent and strategic layout and have far more intelligent placement of traps, named enemies, champions, treasure, shrines, etc My static maps were always the most challenging and epic maps. Loot was still random, and trash mob placement was still always random. People who have played HU will easily remember my custom maps such as the Asylum of War, Castle of Destruction, Zakarum Fortress, Isolated Purgatory and the Vault of the Dead. Maps that would not have been possibly without a map editor that was release 4 years after D2 was released.
5.) Too many crappy mods will be produced, look at NWN
While its true there will be more crappy mods, there will also be more higher quality mods. A lot of people have a great vision but dont have the time and patience to root through layers of codes trying to unlock the more difficult areas of the game. People are busy with work, family, friends, school. Its hard to find the time to dedicate that much time to learning the complexity of modding a game and then creating the mod. I did both in D2 and Hell Unleashed took me countless hours with A LOT of learning and testing and troubleshooting to make things work properly. Some people might enjoy that but most dont have time for it so less mods will exsist in general and we will probably have less power and less capabilities that will take a long time to unlock.
So essentially, I want to see a world editor or atleast some kind of modding tools. Doesnt have to be at release, if Blizzard releases the game first and then maybe 6 months or a year or when an expansion pack comes out take time to develop tools or a world editor, this would allow us to play Diablo 3 as blizzard designed it and enjoy their creation and focus on the game before the modding community gets eager about their own projects.
Blizzard creates the highest quality of games, but after WC3 came out I realized they could also create the highest quality of editor as well. WC3 had an incredibly powerful editor with almost limitless possibilities and it was incredibly user friendly, far superior to any other editor I have ever used, so I know the quality of a Diablo 3 world editor or some kind of tools and map editor would be amazing. They can do it better than anyone. Sure the modding community might figure it out in a few years and develop their own tools and editor as they did for D2, but it will never be as good or powerful as officially released ones.
Bottom line, D3 is an advancement over D2 and I want to see the same advancements go into modding, I dont want the modding community to be forgotten or ignored in D3 because that would just suck and our excitement for the game will be diminished greatly. I want to see improvements in this area, more user friendly, more power. So whether its a world editor, some official modding tools or simply a continuation of D2 style modding with more custom features, user friendly and more powerful Then Ill be happy. I want to create my own maps or areas, random/static, monsters, items, weapons, armor, skills, spells, abilities, quests, triggers, events, hirelings, classes, recipes, runewords, add in custom music, graphics and sounds. Similar to D2 but a step beyond and more user friendly.
Anyway, thats my longpost, if you took the time to read it, please post some feedback. Thanks. I hope Blizzard will take the time to read and consider this.
As far as modding goes I seriously doubt that they will allow a world editor for reasons that everyone should know already by useing their brain.
Now as far as modding the UI sure they could allow tools for that, or mods similar to wow mods. But editors and making your own maps I wouldn't hold my breath for that one.
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i dunno how to explain it but i understand why wc3 has an editor but i don't see the need for one with diablo since its a totally different type of game, just cuz other games like diablo have one, doesn't mean diablo should, or would do better with it... as long as it doesn't affect battle.net then i dont really care at all...
we might as well make it like wc3 and we can select which map we want to play on instead of making a game which loads the whole map... like act 1 or act 2 then we can have custom maps...
i never even heard of all these other mods until now but i don't plan on trying them (i keep playing d2 even without them)
I would not like to play other player's created terrain that was rigged against/for you. I just would like to play the game as intended. If you want to mod it client side for your single player fun, so be it.
Note that I am note against the idea at all though.
It's lasting among fans. All games last among fans. Don't see your point, I don't.
I think I am the only person on this forum who's not a DII fan lol
DotA is online.
And if you've noticed, WCIII has the platform where that would be possible. Diablo III is obviously not an RTS, and should not mirror one. If battle.net offered a separate portal for modded D3 games... I think that would take a lot away from the game's community.
Maybe some people would find i awesome, but it would be a necessity to keep it separate from those joining games to progress their characters.
Also, the characters used to join these player-created games would have to be separate characters in general. This is why WCIII was able to do this - all heros started at level 1 (or whatever stated level the modded game had), etc etc etc. Imagine just joining some player-modded games, tricking out your character, then heading back to normal gameplay.
There's a pretty big problem there.
It doesn't matter what genre it is. FPS, RPG, RTS are all moddable. If you can't imagine how let Blizzard do it.
Great. Don't offer one then! No one's making you, if you are that selfish.
How the heck do you transfer a lan character to Bnet????????
It's not a problem for any other game. Again. Wake up. There are more games out there than Diablo II and WoW. They did this. It doesn't conflict with multiplayer, in fact, doesn't even touch multiplayer. DooM III had tons of TC's made for it, they don't dest mutliplayer. Source engine had tons of tons of tons of mods. This is possible in Diablo, and it's for Single Player and private servers. I don't need battle.net to support it, no one does. If something becomes popular enough and Bnet decides to support it, that's none of your concern.
In diablo 2 you could create a new random level by making the proper entries in levels.txt and lvlmaze.txt... Random dungeons don't need a world editor, but Warcraft 3 had A LOT of features that wennt beyond creating a map.
Diablo 2 was very easy to mod, make changes and add to it. but creating your own maps was difficult, and any hardcoded features were virtually impossible to change, such as quests
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
1.) A world editor is not something only created for Warcraft 3, think outside of Blizzard moron, there are map editors created for FPS games, as well as action rpg games such as titan's quest, as well as rpg games, such as nwn. Why do you seem to feel an editor iws only exclusive to rts in general? and one rts for that matter like wc3 is the only game with an editor.
2.) Not all maps are random, ever boss or major map in diablo 2 was pre-set not random, I can count over 20 maps in diablo 2 that were NOT randomly generated.
3.) It will NOT be exploitable, obviously you will not be able to create character in a mod or custom campaign and then log them on to an official battle.net server game
4.) Diablo 2 was user friendly for modding and did have a fan created map editor and numerous tools, it did not STEAL the community from diablo 2 and was not used to explot battle.net... Render the game useless for modders and we will probably stick with sacred 2 and play Diablo 3 a few times through and quit, so you'd be losing your community either way, either they'll go play custom mods when they get bored of the game or they'll quit and go to another game. Mine as well get a longer life span for more fans out of Diablo 3, so stfu and quit knocking the modding community who probably showed more dedication and put more hours into diablo 2 then most battle.net players.
We need to remeber, not all maps are randomly generated, yes they're cool and have their place, but even Blizzard stated not ALL maps will be randomy generated, some will be static... I am assuming these are the more epic floors/areas with big bosses or the end of certain quests like Diablo 2...
For my mod, I had about a 66% / 33% ratio of random vs pre-set dungeons... pre-set dungeons you have more control over gauntlet style layouts, intelligent boss/champ placement, treasure chests, traps etc... Be open minded and think. A world editor leads to a lot of possabilities beyond map generation.
Diablo 2 did have modding and a map editor with a lot of awesome mods available, but most features were discovered by fans, not given to us by Blizzard. But blizzard has proven they can make kick ass toolsets, so I;d rather see them do it in all there glory.
The myths? Many games have world editors, not just WC3, nor RTS games... It will not steal the base community of D3 which will be huge, people go to mods when they get bored of the regular game, without mods they'll just quit and move on at this stage. It wont be exploitable because blizzard wont let it, mods prolly wont be allowed on b.net and if they are, a modded character will not be able to cross over to any other mod or a regular ladder game obviously...
Let me start be saying this is a long post, but if your interested and have a good argument of why your for, or against a world editor or official modding tools for Diablo 3 then please read through this entirely and feel free to chip in.
I am a modder of Diablo 2 and created the multiplayer mod known as Hell Unleashed http://arimyth.planetdiablo.gamespy.com/hell.htm I am a strong support of the Diablo 2 modding community, most found at the Phrozen Keep http://phrozenkeep.planetdiablo.gamespy.com/ where many exciting D2 mods have been developed, such as Eastern Sun and Back to Hell Fire. I invested 2 years developing Hell Unleashed for D2, it was challenging and exciting, but greatly appreciated by the community that supported it.
I want to see this trend continue into Diablo 3. D2 was left very open ended and fairly user friendly to modding, but there were no official tools or support for it from Blizzard, so the modding fan base had to create many 3rd party tools on their own including a map editor. Although its been over 8 years since Diablo 2 was released, people are still creating plugins, modding tools and uncovering secrets within D2. As it stands now we are able to create monsters, maps, spells, skills, recipes, runewords, weapons, armor, items, import graphics, sounds and music, change text and dialogue, and re-invent the 7 existing classes. What we cannot do in Diablo 2 without great difficulty are add new classes, add or change quests mechanics and rewards, hirelings, add events or triggers and a few other hardcoded aspects of the game.
I have seen the arguments of why people are opposed to this.
1.) This isnt WC3, D2 doesnt need to be modded or have an editor
While D2 had no official tools, tools were developed and the D2 modding community is still growing today, so obviously a large fan base exists Lots of games have official editors or tools that arent RTS Titans Quest, Neverwinter Nights, most FPS games Even now the upcoming Sacred 2 hack n slash stated theyre developing a type of world/quest editor for the game that they plan to release sometime after the game hits the shelves.
2.) Mods and custom maps would be easily exploitable
Not true, Blizzard will simply not allow mods on battle.net for D3, just as they currently dont with D2 or if they did offer mods on battle.net, characters would obviously not be transferable from one mod to another, separate ladders. In my Hell Unleashed mod, HU characters were not even compatible with regular D2 or any other mods and vice versa due to so many changed mechanics and custom stuff. So it obviously would not be exploitable.
3.) Mods will divide the community and thin group play
I highly doubt D3 will ever suffer from a lack of players Besides, a lot of people move to mods or mod creation once they become bored of the game, thats my experience and at that point they either quit and move on to a different game or play or develop mods. If D2 modding would have not been possible , I would have quit a few months after LoD I enjoyed the original campaign, but eventually I found it very redundant, challenges and pointless. Finding loot by killing Baal for the 1000s time is not my idea of keeping things interesting. Modding helps to hold the community to a game longer where we can try out new characters, new maps, new bosses, new gear and new skills. Most people who grow bored of the game will go to mods or simply leave the game.
4.) Diablo maps are randomly generated, we dont need a map editor
Well its true the majority of maps in Diablo are randomly generated, there are many that are not. Memorable maps such as the cathedral, the throne room, the chaos sanctuary are not randomly generated and they are generally the more epic maps I enjoy both a mix of random dungeons and static dungeons. Hell Unleashed was prolly 75% random maps, 25% I designed fully be hand. Its a good balance, in static maps you can create more intelligent and strategic layout and have far more intelligent placement of traps, named enemies, champions, treasure, shrines, etc My static maps were always the most challenging and epic maps. Loot was still random, and trash mob placement was still always random. People who have played HU will easily remember my custom maps such as the Asylum of War, Castle of Destruction, Zakarum Fortress, Isolated Purgatory and the Vault of the Dead. Maps that would not have been possibly without a map editor that was release 4 years after D2 was released.
5.) Too many crappy mods will be produced, look at NWN
While its true there will be more crappy mods, there will also be more higher quality mods. A lot of people have a great vision but dont have the time and patience to root through layers of codes trying to unlock the more difficult areas of the game. People are busy with work, family, friends, school. Its hard to find the time to dedicate that much time to learning the complexity of modding a game and then creating the mod. I did both in D2 and Hell Unleashed took me countless hours with A LOT of learning and testing and troubleshooting to make things work properly. Some people might enjoy that but most dont have time for it so less mods will exsist in general and we will probably have less power and less capabilities that will take a long time to unlock.
So essentially, I want to see a world editor or atleast some kind of modding tools. Doesnt have to be at release, if Blizzard releases the game first and then maybe 6 months or a year or when an expansion pack comes out take time to develop tools or a world editor, this would allow us to play Diablo 3 as blizzard designed it and enjoy their creation and focus on the game before the modding community gets eager about their own projects.
Blizzard creates the highest quality of games, but after WC3 came out I realized they could also create the highest quality of editor as well. WC3 had an incredibly powerful editor with almost limitless possibilities and it was incredibly user friendly, far superior to any other editor I have ever used, so I know the quality of a Diablo 3 world editor or some kind of tools and map editor would be amazing. They can do it better than anyone. Sure the modding community might figure it out in a few years and develop their own tools and editor as they did for D2, but it will never be as good or powerful as officially released ones.
Bottom line, D3 is an advancement over D2 and I want to see the same advancements go into modding, I dont want the modding community to be forgotten or ignored in D3 because that would just suck and our excitement for the game will be diminished greatly. I want to see improvements in this area, more user friendly, more power. So whether its a world editor, some official modding tools or simply a continuation of D2 style modding with more custom features, user friendly and more powerful Then Ill be happy. I want to create my own maps or areas, random/static, monsters, items, weapons, armor, skills, spells, abilities, quests, triggers, events, hirelings, classes, recipes, runewords, add in custom music, graphics and sounds. Similar to D2 but a step beyond and more user friendly.
Anyway, thats my longpost, if you took the time to read it, please post some feedback. Thanks. I hope Blizzard will take the time to read and consider this.
Thank you.
Soulmancer, aka Terry: Creator of Diablo 2: Hell Unleashed
http://arimyth.planetdiablo.gamespy.com/hell.htm
Now as far as modding the UI sure they could allow tools for that, or mods similar to wow mods. But editors and making your own maps I wouldn't hold my breath for that one.