Don't you guys feel that the gap between the lucky and the unlucky is too huge? There should be some middle ground or separate option for the players that will NEVER find a set item / decent legendary.
And just because one person finds legendarys every hour doesn't mean the other person does too...
I know several players who find good items every day, and I know other players (who just quit) who grind hours and hours a day and never found anything even remotely decent.
There needs to be a middle ground.
There is a middle ground and it comes with TIME. The love/hate relationship with RNG is that it is really a battle of the law of averages (which is linear) the more time that passes the more we regress to the mean (get to being average) so don't fret, put in your time, you will end up average over time (for better or for worse -- but atleast you've got that).
Well, one thing that has not been brought up was the fact that in games like Diablo 2 or Path of Exile your build was more or less locked down. It wasn't until very late in the games shelf-life that they allowed more flexibility and incorporated some "resets" along the progression. That being said, Ladder, atleast in my opinion, offered some very nice incentives to play it: For me personally, it allowed me to create a build and stick to it for the season (or life in hardcore mode) I always enjoyed the "spend wisely" approach to games like Diablo 2, Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Path of Exile, etc. It's not to say that I don't enjoy the mechanics of Diablo 3, but ladder was in part about re-leveling and creating new characters, in Diablo 3 you really never have a need to make new toons per se because you can just re-gear them to whatever build-spec you were going for. Ladder in Diablo 3 at least partially addresses this concern for me and people like me I believe. For anyone who has played an ARPG or similar style games there is that gut feeling when you start playing it, that uncertainty, it can be hard to describe. It is like wondering if this go-around is the one where your RNG gods finally shine down on you, you find something worthwhile really early or you get ahead or things just fall into place. In Permanent mode, the play through of all your tunes is really concrete and static. In Ladder, as short as it can be, it's like having a new shot at everything every re-roll. lt was exciting and added some new flavor. That is what I enjoyed about it, summed up pretty quickly, anyways.
I dont know. I mean, I've clocked some serious hours so far on this PTR and I have a couple things worth mentioning. Let me get the fact out of the way that the perspective I have is completely parallel to the fact that I fully intend to purchase the Reaper of Souls expansion pack. I do not see the logical point in removing the content of basically MP1+. I haven't seen any hard numbers, but from what I have seen with my own two eyes: Master (60) is Monster level 61 (says so in the tool tip when changing preferences) Anyone who has geared using traditional means (Ahem... Auction house.. And theres nothing wrong with that! use what you got!) you're going to blow through this content.
People keep saying things like " Well its designed around finding your own gear..." Well, no... I'm afraid that has no logical consistency.. They are relying on the fact that people are moving on to Reaper of Souls. In a round about way, they are making the game mind-numbingly easy to the point it almost pigeon-holes you into buying the expansion right off the bat. Why would you patch content into the existing Vanilla structure to negate all of the progress you've made (if you can call eliminating any challenge of the game negating the progress) It just doesn't make sense to me... What is expected if we don't immediately switch to Reaper of Souls? Sell all our current gear to a vendor and start over? I understand that this PTR is a port of RoS so there are some unknown factors that we cant account for, like, the fact a weapon can't be found with Crit Damage or Life Steal. We are assuming this is because its a RoS port. Because I can flat out tell you right now if thats what loot 2.0.1 is, Any great gear with Crit damage, sockets, lifesteal, it's still the best gear in the game. This whole expert/masters/etc thing. We are assuming this is only a RoS feature. I haven't seen any literature indicating any further changes to Monster Power. It would be incredibly asinine to go backward (removing the mob density that was added) and over-simplifying the elements of PvE when the game up until this point was entirely centered around having insanely efficient gear readily accessible at the click of a button. I think once some more answers rise to the surface we can lay some of these fears to rest, but I can only say, I hope some of these changes are ONLY for RoS and stay OUT of Vanilla.
Having watched a lot of streams and kept up with the news for ros, I would like to compile some small suggestions I've heard from the whole community here that could revitalize the end-game about: trading, pvpve, drop rates.
Trading
Here is a suggestion I made in another thread, but I would like to reiterate it here:
Make ALL items and currencies trade-able with and only with people that were on your friends list/in your clan when the item dropped. Reasons why this is good:
It builds your personal community, encouraging you to have a lot of friends and interact with them
It encourages social interaction between your friends and your clan (respectively), since you have to communicate with them about the loot, mats, or gold you want to exchange with them
It makes it so random strangers is not a part of D3ROS trading, since the max friends you can have is 100 and thus your trade reach is limited
There would be an incentive to keep farming legendaries, even after you have found all the ones you want for your build, since you will be able to sell/exchange them, still benefitting you to find them
PVPVE
Athene made a video suggesting that this would be a core of the endgame and longevity of D3ROS and that it needed to be implemented. Blizz wants balance, and it just simply doesn't exist in PVP for D3V or D3ROS. Thus, the best middle-ground would be PVPVE, where:
You would fight monsters, or waves of monsters, solo or in a coop game and try to get the best time, the best kill streak, or even just beat a harder pack than the other team.
Both teams (maybe more than 2 teams? tournament?) would play in their own instances at the same time as each other.
There could even be a turn based PVPVE where one team (or solo) plays a level and adds a bunch of difficult modifiers to the level they will play, and then the other team, when they come online next, play that same level, matching the difficulty and seeing who got the best time or score or whatever. It's basically like HORSE in basketball, but in D3ROS.
There could be ranked and unranked games, ranking by clan, etc.
This would be good because it would encourage competitive gameplay in an environment whose balancing is already being done for the PVE in-game. Competition, cooperation, and community interaction would all come from this PVPVE system.
Drop Rates
This one is a small change that will also help the longevity of the game. We know that blue said that the drop rates are boosted for the beta, but I still just wanted to say that finding a legendary should still take some amount of time, not 12 legendaries in one rift level (kripp's video).
Conclusion
These are a combination of my suggestions, the overall community requests, and some specific people's suggestions (such as Athene) compiled into a post about D3ROS' longevity. Please feel free to constructively criticize and hope that Blizz sees this!
Edit: Grammar
I like the enthusiasm and I like a lot of where the ideas are going. That being said, like others have mentioned, atleast in a typical forum-induced heavily negative and unproductive manner, that they could be reworked into something a little more realistic clearer. I think trading is important to a lot of us, I know its extremely important to me, and I would like to see a way to trade some of the really cool stuff we find. Without trading, it just feels like I'm playing some kind of static RPG off-line on my Playstation or something. When making these suggestions it's extremely important to keep in mind the ways it can be exploited, as others have mentioned. While it may be a fantastic method if everyone were honest and forthright, the ways you described simply leave a lot of room to be manipulated, and thats exactly what we need to avoid going into RoS.
It would be cool to see a trade limit on items. Maybe it can only exchange hands but three times before it's account bound. This would be particularly interesting to me because it leaves some flexibility and uncertainty (which is crucial) for the price of the items to fluctuate because of the remaining opportunities it has to be exchanged. For example, an item may be valued its highest with 2 or 3 opportunities to trade, being an exceptional piece of equipment, as it reaches its final trade limit, it may decrease or increase, because there is the realization that it can no longer be traded. I think a system like this would work best if it said how many exchanges were left on the item description tag.
To build on this further, I think another way of limiting would be to limit how many times gems could be socketed or resocketed (with the "theory" being that every time you resocket/desocket you figuratively (not literally affecting the item) degrade the item until the ability to contain a gem is no longer available) Again, a system like this would be best if it were displayed in the item description how many more resockets the item could handle. What we need here is a funnel of equipment. We would need new items entering the market, and items exiting the market permanently. Systems like this need balance, what we had in Diablo 3 Vanilla was an excruciating amount of items entering the market every day, the effective 99% (anything below the very very best equipment), which would lose value guaranteed in combination with the fact that the best items never expired or left the market. There was such a massive influx of mediocre and crap gear that the best gear would perpetually get more and more valuable and more and more rare. We need a better distribution curve of the items. They have taken measures to address this in part in RoS so we will see how that goes, but we really won't know without the hard data that we get from just having the game out and playing it for hours and hours mulitiplied by the millions of players.
Man I really love the way this game plays I honestly just wish they went into the other direction with character's art design. I like more traditional, modest armor/weapon designs. I'm really okay with the flamboyancy of some weapons, but I really think these armor designs are just gaudy.
I made a ton of money in the auction house, and in that regard, I am sad to see it go. However, I know it ultimately robbed me of the experience I yearned for before its release. I agree with the OP. 1000%.
You do realize that (part of) the 250+ mainstat is the random property which you're going to remove?
Uh... not really.
This is the highest Int/non-CC Mempo available right now on the GAH.
The random stat in here rolled Int+Vit instead of CC, which gives us the chance to re-roll the Vit to CC (unless there's something hidden in the game-code that remembers the stats which rolled doubly). See?
What he is explaining is the fact that, yes it rolled a Int + Vit affix, however, that is one affix. If you change that one "roll" - really the affix, you lose both not just one. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The vit + int is a married unit.
I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.
There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.
You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.
Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.
These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."
Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.
That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.
That's completely false. The burden of proof is ABSOLUTELY on you. YOUR the one who brought an idea to the table, so it's up to YOU to defend it.
I can't come in here, state that ladder should automatically delete your character after 72 hours, and then say its up to you to prove why it shouldn't.
Why do I find myself repeating the fact I'm never the person who said that ladder only items should be there. I merely said that if it happens, I can see why its beneficial, and if it doesnt happen, I will still play ladder. I was not the person who started talking about ladder only items, or was gung-ho for ladder only items. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.
There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.
You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.
Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.
These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."
Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.
That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.
Just because ladder in itself is an incentive to play ladder doesn't mean people can't be afforded more incentives to play ladder, Ruksak. Not to mention, just because I say that I am for ladder with or without the ladder only material doesn't mean that it justifies ladder NOT having that stuff. I mean really, you say you're being civil, yet, every time I come across you're posts you sound like a petulant twelve year old, egging people on like a troll.
If you can't handle a debate, do not engage. So sick of some of you wanting to start shit but you can't finish it. You want to call me childish but I'm not the one flinging insults to make a point about a god damn video game.
If you can't handle a discussion without the insults, name calling and back-handed comments, just quit. Walk away.
I asked you if you would play ladder if it didn't have special ladder-only items. You said "yes". As far as I'm concerned, that's all I wanted to hear.
I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere. There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else. These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate." As if this was CNN cross-fire or something. How is anyone supposed to "Finish it" when all you do is wait several hours or days to post your final "retort" trying to get the last word in.
I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
Ya know, I've been real nice and have just been having a discussion with you. But you keep insulting and going off like a jerk. Because you cannot be civil, I'm going to assume you cannot be honest as well.
Please stop arguing obtuse points.
You think it's obtuse for me to argue that people whom do not want to play ladder deserve to play with the same loot table that ladder play has?
YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder.
Then go play ladder. There's your incentive. You heard him, everyone. No need for ladder only items. I guess we're done here, aye?
PS: Would you people learn how to post-format and knock it off with the quote trains?
Just because ladder in itself is an incentive to play ladder doesn't mean people can't be afforded more incentives to play ladder, Ruksak. Not to mention, just because I say that I am for ladder with or without the ladder only material doesn't mean that it justifies ladder NOT having that stuff. I mean really, you say you're being civil, yet, every time I come across you're posts you sound like a petulant twelve year old, egging people on like a troll.
I think the similarities between the game are uncanny but in the process of trying to make a sequel without making the same game twice they shit the bed. A lot of the stats are arbitrary in both games, but I do feel that they put too much importance on the items themselves in Diablo 3. Itemization was better in Diablo 2 not in the fact that the items were so much more cleverly designed, although they were, but mostly because the characters themselves had intrinsic value. What I mean by this, and we've all seen this argument a hundred times, is that the characters just had more inherent *oomph*, they could get through the game more fluidly because of what the character had to contribute to the equation of damage and EHP.
One other thing, is that items had a very consistent value across the online experience. For example, if you were to find a Vampire Gaze, or a Windforce, or Shako, Oculus, etc, you were basically always guaranteed a certain amount. I never had any problems trading online in that game, never had any problems with dupes, except Ith weapons which disappeared on 1.1 patch day, but thats a different story. I handled thousands of SOJ's myself, and my brother easily handled thousands himself, never had one disappear. Ever. Even when highrune currency came into play, the economy was very consistent, the items you found were predictable which led to a predictable market. That was really important for my experience. There wasn't such a large perpetual deflation problem.
I think that having the players do a little work is intriguing and creates this mentality of ownership and commitment. In Diablo 3 so much of the work is done for you that, I believe, turns a lot of people off. DPS, Toughness, all that, it's just too transparent if such a thing existed. That's just my thoughts.
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only.There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.
If I disagree with you, that's means I just want to fight?
How very arrogant.
Have I not been mature and cordial in this discussion?
Ladder Only Items;
Griffs
Kira's
Shadow Dancers
Andy's
Tyrael's
Death Clever
Gheed's
Levi
Ladder Only Rune Words;
Spirit
Insight
Grief
Fort
Death
Last Wish
Now I didn't mean ALL the best items were lad-only. I meant many of them were. Indeed. Nobody wants to be cut out.
You're evading the meat of the matter. EVERYTHING could drop in ladder. The drop table was gimped in non-lad.
Again, would you play ladder if not everything could drop, but it non-lad, everything did drop?
I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
As for the items you've posted from Diablo 2 ladder, you could have listed some of the Non-exclusive items as well. As for runewords, there are 55 that don't require you to be in Ladder to create. As for uniques, you've left out Great ones such as Buriza, Windforce, Grandfather, Doombringer, wizarspike, shako, Vampire Gaze, Arreats Face, Shaftstop, Demon Arc, Thundergods Vigor, Arachnid Mesh, I mean really, come on, Do I really need to list every better item that anyone can get? It's obvious at this point, the best gear is available to all players. But the real trump card, is that all the "Ladder only" stuff is all over non-ladder trading, where you have a much more REALISTIC chance of acquiring the said gear.
Personally, if the ladder had nothing new to bring to the table, i really don't know if i would play it. Maybe if i "beat" the game and started to get bored and wanted to change things a bit.
Doesn't that speak volumes as to why we don't need a ladder? The actual mode of play sucks hugely. It's dominated by bots, always has been, and the only thing it brings to the table is some ladder-specific loot.
Without the loot no one would play it because it doesn't actually enhance the general gameplay.
Why not just make better loot in softcore and hardcore and forget about ladder loot and make all the players happy instead of a small sub-set of the players? What about that is so controversial?
No one has either argued for nor against that idea. I simply stated I do not care if it is there or not, because the "loot" will find its way to both realms (at least in Diablo 2) regardless. If its there, awesome, if its not, awesome.I could honestly care less. But to see so many people whine and cry if a few items were to make there way to be temporarily exclusive to ladder players. Big deal. It's already been explained that the exclusivity runs out rather quickly, and that, it IS a good way to provide incentive to play ladder. Not to mention, nothing withers into dust afterwords. It simply converts to non-ladder.
Maybe this is what you guys need: I understand why you could be upset that an item was ladder-only. Afterall, you invest your time and emotions into a character. You develop him/her. Only to see them removed from these "exclusive" items. You want a forever ladder. You are in luck! Thats called, "NON-ladder" people who play ladder want a cyclic economy and playerbase. It's not that outrageous of an idea. Not to mention, for the last time, THE BEST ITEMS IN THE GAME ARE NOT LADDER ONLY.
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only.There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.
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Well, one thing that has not been brought up was the fact that in games like Diablo 2 or Path of Exile your build was more or less locked down. It wasn't until very late in the games shelf-life that they allowed more flexibility and incorporated some "resets" along the progression. That being said, Ladder, atleast in my opinion, offered some very nice incentives to play it: For me personally, it allowed me to create a build and stick to it for the season (or life in hardcore mode) I always enjoyed the "spend wisely" approach to games like Diablo 2, Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Path of Exile, etc. It's not to say that I don't enjoy the mechanics of Diablo 3, but ladder was in part about re-leveling and creating new characters, in Diablo 3 you really never have a need to make new toons per se because you can just re-gear them to whatever build-spec you were going for. Ladder in Diablo 3 at least partially addresses this concern for me and people like me I believe. For anyone who has played an ARPG or similar style games there is that gut feeling when you start playing it, that uncertainty, it can be hard to describe. It is like wondering if this go-around is the one where your RNG gods finally shine down on you, you find something worthwhile really early or you get ahead or things just fall into place. In Permanent mode, the play through of all your tunes is really concrete and static. In Ladder, as short as it can be, it's like having a new shot at everything every re-roll. lt was exciting and added some new flavor. That is what I enjoyed about it, summed up pretty quickly, anyways.
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I dont know. I mean, I've clocked some serious hours so far on this PTR and I have a couple things worth mentioning. Let me get the fact out of the way that the perspective I have is completely parallel to the fact that I fully intend to purchase the Reaper of Souls expansion pack. I do not see the logical point in removing the content of basically MP1+. I haven't seen any hard numbers, but from what I have seen with my own two eyes: Master (60) is Monster level 61 (says so in the tool tip when changing preferences) Anyone who has geared using traditional means (Ahem... Auction house.. And theres nothing wrong with that! use what you got!) you're going to blow through this content.
People keep saying things like " Well its designed around finding your own gear..." Well, no... I'm afraid that has no logical consistency.. They are relying on the fact that people are moving on to Reaper of Souls. In a round about way, they are making the game mind-numbingly easy to the point it almost pigeon-holes you into buying the expansion right off the bat. Why would you patch content into the existing Vanilla structure to negate all of the progress you've made (if you can call eliminating any challenge of the game negating the progress) It just doesn't make sense to me... What is expected if we don't immediately switch to Reaper of Souls? Sell all our current gear to a vendor and start over? I understand that this PTR is a port of RoS so there are some unknown factors that we cant account for, like, the fact a weapon can't be found with Crit Damage or Life Steal. We are assuming this is because its a RoS port. Because I can flat out tell you right now if thats what loot 2.0.1 is, Any great gear with Crit damage, sockets, lifesteal, it's still the best gear in the game. This whole expert/masters/etc thing. We are assuming this is only a RoS feature. I haven't seen any literature indicating any further changes to Monster Power. It would be incredibly asinine to go backward (removing the mob density that was added) and over-simplifying the elements of PvE when the game up until this point was entirely centered around having insanely efficient gear readily accessible at the click of a button. I think once some more answers rise to the surface we can lay some of these fears to rest, but I can only say, I hope some of these changes are ONLY for RoS and stay OUT of Vanilla.
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I like the enthusiasm and I like a lot of where the ideas are going. That being said, like others have mentioned, atleast in a typical forum-induced heavily negative and unproductive manner, that they could be reworked into something
a little more realisticclearer. I think trading is important to a lot of us, I know its extremely important to me, and I would like to see a way to trade some of the really cool stuff we find. Without trading, it just feels like I'm playing some kind of static RPG off-line on my Playstation or something. When making these suggestions it's extremely important to keep in mind the ways it can be exploited, as others have mentioned. While it may be a fantastic method if everyone were honest and forthright, the ways you described simply leave a lot of room to be manipulated, and thats exactly what we need to avoid going into RoS.It would be cool to see a trade limit on items. Maybe it can only exchange hands but three times before it's account bound. This would be particularly interesting to me because it leaves some flexibility and uncertainty (which is crucial) for the price of the items to fluctuate because of the remaining opportunities it has to be exchanged. For example, an item may be valued its highest with 2 or 3 opportunities to trade, being an exceptional piece of equipment, as it reaches its final trade limit, it may decrease or increase, because there is the realization that it can no longer be traded. I think a system like this would work best if it said how many exchanges were left on the item description tag.
To build on this further, I think another way of limiting would be to limit how many times gems could be socketed or resocketed (with the "theory" being that every time you resocket/desocket you figuratively (not literally affecting the item) degrade the item until the ability to contain a gem is no longer available) Again, a system like this would be best if it were displayed in the item description how many more resockets the item could handle. What we need here is a funnel of equipment. We would need new items entering the market, and items exiting the market permanently. Systems like this need balance, what we had in Diablo 3 Vanilla was an excruciating amount of items entering the market every day, the effective 99% (anything below the very very best equipment), which would lose value guaranteed in combination with the fact that the best items never expired or left the market. There was such a massive influx of mediocre and crap gear that the best gear would perpetually get more and more valuable and more and more rare. We need a better distribution curve of the items. They have taken measures to address this in part in RoS so we will see how that goes, but we really won't know without the hard data that we get from just having the game out and playing it for hours and hours mulitiplied by the millions of players.
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What he is explaining is the fact that, yes it rolled a Int + Vit affix, however, that is one affix. If you change that one "roll" - really the affix, you lose both not just one. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The vit + int is a married unit.
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Why do I find myself repeating the fact I'm never the person who said that ladder only items should be there. I merely said that if it happens, I can see why its beneficial, and if it doesnt happen, I will still play ladder. I was not the person who started talking about ladder only items, or was gung-ho for ladder only items. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
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That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.
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I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere. There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else. These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate." As if this was CNN cross-fire or something. How is anyone supposed to "Finish it" when all you do is wait several hours or days to post your final "retort" trying to get the last word in.
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Just because ladder in itself is an incentive to play ladder doesn't mean people can't be afforded more incentives to play ladder, Ruksak. Not to mention, just because I say that I am for ladder with or without the ladder only material doesn't mean that it justifies ladder NOT having that stuff. I mean really, you say you're being civil, yet, every time I come across you're posts you sound like a petulant twelve year old, egging people on like a troll.
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One other thing, is that items had a very consistent value across the online experience. For example, if you were to find a Vampire Gaze, or a Windforce, or Shako, Oculus, etc, you were basically always guaranteed a certain amount. I never had any problems trading online in that game, never had any problems with dupes, except Ith weapons which disappeared on 1.1 patch day, but thats a different story. I handled thousands of SOJ's myself, and my brother easily handled thousands himself, never had one disappear. Ever. Even when highrune currency came into play, the economy was very consistent, the items you found were predictable which led to a predictable market. That was really important for my experience. There wasn't such a large perpetual deflation problem.
I think that having the players do a little work is intriguing and creates this mentality of ownership and commitment. In Diablo 3 so much of the work is done for you that, I believe, turns a lot of people off. DPS, Toughness, all that, it's just too transparent if such a thing existed. That's just my thoughts.
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I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
As for the items you've posted from Diablo 2 ladder, you could have listed some of the Non-exclusive items as well. As for runewords, there are 55 that don't require you to be in Ladder to create. As for uniques, you've left out Great ones such as Buriza, Windforce, Grandfather, Doombringer, wizarspike, shako, Vampire Gaze, Arreats Face, Shaftstop, Demon Arc, Thundergods Vigor, Arachnid Mesh, I mean really, come on, Do I really need to list every better item that anyone can get? It's obvious at this point, the best gear is available to all players. But the real trump card, is that all the "Ladder only" stuff is all over non-ladder trading, where you have a much more REALISTIC chance of acquiring the said gear.
Please stop arguing obtuse points.
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No one has either argued for nor against that idea. I simply stated I do not care if it is there or not, because the "loot" will find its way to both realms (at least in Diablo 2) regardless. If its there, awesome, if its not, awesome.I could honestly care less. But to see so many people whine and cry if a few items were to make there way to be temporarily exclusive to ladder players. Big deal. It's already been explained that the exclusivity runs out rather quickly, and that, it IS a good way to provide incentive to play ladder. Not to mention, nothing withers into dust afterwords. It simply converts to non-ladder.
Maybe this is what you guys need: I understand why you could be upset that an item was ladder-only. Afterall, you invest your time and emotions into a character. You develop him/her. Only to see them removed from these "exclusive" items. You want a forever ladder. You are in luck! Thats called, "NON-ladder" people who play ladder want a cyclic economy and playerbase. It's not that outrageous of an idea. Not to mention, for the last time, THE BEST ITEMS IN THE GAME ARE NOT LADDER ONLY.
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Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only. There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.