Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
Except for the fact that the aforementioned line is completely erroneous. They are only exclusive to ladder on the very first season, after that, they roll into non-ladder economies.
Well, but there they're not really your drops anymore. You can carry them over from last season's chars or try to trade (good luck on that), but it's not like you can just create this runeword on your previously demoted character - and only creating the runeword is what makes for the experience ;-)
Since I played self-found, this wasn't really an option for me, and I had to go to ladder mode to have access to these runewords.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees. The fact that such a limited quantity of specific items make their way into the economy does wonders for retaining value and creating value for said items.
I never stated that Ladder only itemization was my only incentive to play ladder - but I do think that its perfectly fine if they did this. I played ladder and non ladder on Diablo 2 off and on, as recently as this year even.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
No one's talking about these impossible Zod-infueled runewords. The reason why self-found players went for ladder mode is because there were awesome ladder-only low-level runewords that made self-found a lot easier.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
That response is about as absurd as me going, "Well there are games where ladders already exist, they are called Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I encourage you go to play them if you would like your ladder experience".
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
No one's talking about these impossible Zod-infueled runewords. The reason why self-found players went for ladder mode is because there were awesome ladder-only low-level runewords that made self-found a lot easier.
I really only saw a benefit to low-level runewords for Hardcore mode. In my opinion, they really didnt offer much to self-found softcore players, as they tend to level up much quicker, thus, negating a lot of the inherent benefits. Thats just my opinion.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
That response is about as absurd as me going, "Well there are games where ladders already exist, they are called Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I encourage you go to play them if you would like your ladder experience".
Well, I'm not an answerbag and I can't solve all of your problems. A lot of the concerns a lot of people bring up on here are erroneous and built off of false information. The droprates are the same, what do you want me to tell you? You have the same statistical odds of creating the same (creatable) items between non-ladder and ladder. If you want to play self-found and make your own stuff, by all means, GO FOR IT.
As long as it employs the exact same loot table, I'm down. Those ladder-only items are bullshit, we have no need for such silliness in this game.
That's a little harsh. The whole point of the ladder only rune words and elite uniques was because they didn't have several months or years of itemization build-up. It offers some end game possibilities and, besides, they all roll over to non-ladder anyways.
The issue with ladder only items was that it didn't just function as an incentive to play ladder, it functioned in a way that made people feel like they were missing out by not playing ladder. It was exclusive, and not in a good way. Some people don't have the time to sink into ladder play. Therefor, they're relegated to missing out on some of the best items in the game and an entirely different loot drop table.
Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
Except for the fact that the aforementioned line is completely erroneous. They are only exclusive to ladder on the very first season, after that, they roll into non-ladder economies. Also, the fact remains that drop rates were the same between nonladder and ladder.
How is that erroneous?
The problem then becomes end-game. People like to farm. When people farm they want the full loot table.
SOOOO.....when ladder ends, if you still want to farm the full loot table, you have to start over again and relegate your old char to dust. Switching back to non-lad means you can no longer do all the things with RW's you once could, nor can you farm for all the items in the game.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
No one's talking about these impossible Zod-infueled runewords. The reason why self-found players went for ladder mode is because there were awesome ladder-only low-level runewords that made self-found a lot easier.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
No one's talking about these impossible Zod-infueled runewords. The reason why self-found players went for ladder mode is because there were awesome ladder-only low-level runewords that made self-found a lot easier.
'Spirit' is a great example of that.
There were plenty of great runewords, but like I said, they all found their way into non-ladder. Yes if you want to create your own ladder specific runewords, you have to play ladder. The point is, they typically are not the very greatest end-game items available. Yes they are good, I did not dispute that.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
That response is about as absurd as me going, "Well there are games where ladders already exist, they are called Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I encourage you go to play them if you would like your ladder experience".
Well, I'm not an answerbag and I can't solve all of your problems. A lot of the concerns a lot of people bring up on here are erroneous and built off of false information. The droprates are the same, what do you want me to tell you? You have the same statistical odds of creating the same (creatable) items between non-ladder and ladder. If you want to play self-found and make your own stuff, by all means, GO FOR IT.
I'm not sure you're grasping what people do not want ladder-only items judging by your response. People do not want ladder-only items because they do not want to be forced to re-roll on every ladder reset to have access to every item in the game. It has nothing to do with drop rates or having false information. Others do not want to have their play style sacrificed for the play style of others when there clearly is a middle ground - a ladder system that does not have ladder only items.
Can you tell me why there HAS to be ladder-only items in the game?
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
That response is about as absurd as me going, "Well there are games where ladders already exist, they are called Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I encourage you go to play them if you would like your ladder experience".
Well, I'm not an answerbag and I can't solve all of your problems. A lot of the concerns a lot of people bring up on here are erroneous and built off of false information. The droprates are the same, what do you want me to tell you? You have the same statistical odds of creating the same (creatable) items between non-ladder and ladder. If you want to play self-found and make your own stuff, by all means, GO FOR IT.
I'm not sure you're grasping what people do not want ladder-only items judging by your response. People do not want ladder-only items because they do not want to be forced to re-roll on every ladder reset to have access to every item in the game. It has nothing to do with drop rates or having false information. Others do not want to have their play style sacrificed for the play style of others when there clearly is a middle ground - a ladder system that does not have ladder only items.
Can you tell me why there HAS to be ladder-only items in the game?
No, as a matter of a fact, I will not. You keep insisting on ladder only material. I am a person who does not care if it is there or not. I'm not here martyring myself for the implementation of ladder-only items. I do not care if they are there or not. You are missing some clear points. 1.) you will likely never create the very best ladder only runewords 2.) you will likely never find the very best ladder uniques, 3.) the ones that have already been created and have already been found can be accessed via non-ladder and ladder after the first season. 4.) as Supply and Demand permits, the trade or cost of said items will predictably go down because more and more are introduced to the market.
Can I tell you why they HAVE to be there? No, no I can't. And frankly, I do not have to. There are clear reasons why such items could be available to players playing ladder, the benefits are indisputable. If you need me to spell it out for you, too bad.
And for everyone whining about how ladder is tainted because of botters. Well, buddy, theres a cheater in every game. EVERY game. The fact that someone has cheated should upset you, but should it deter you from ever challenging yourself and trying something? Thats just dumb. You should sell all of your consoles, never attempt to invest in the stock market, or compete for a promotion in your job. You will find yourself challenging cheaters, liars, and manipulators your entire life.
For those who would like to play self-found and make a Breath of the Dying colossus blade, I certainly encourage you to try to organically create one. Or any end-game unique find, good luck with those odds too. You're all missing the forest for the trees.
That response is about as absurd as me going, "Well there are games where ladders already exist, they are called Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I encourage you go to play them if you would like your ladder experience".
Well, I'm not an answerbag and I can't solve all of your problems. A lot of the concerns a lot of people bring up on here are erroneous and built off of false information. The droprates are the same, what do you want me to tell you? You have the same statistical odds of creating the same (creatable) items between non-ladder and ladder. If you want to play self-found and make your own stuff, by all means, GO FOR IT.
I'm not sure you're grasping what people do not want ladder-only items judging by your response. People do not want ladder-only items because they do not want to be forced to re-roll on every ladder reset to have access to every item in the game. It has nothing to do with drop rates or having false information. Others do not want to have their play style sacrificed for the play style of others when there clearly is a middle ground - a ladder system that does not have ladder only items.
Can you tell me why there HAS to be ladder-only items in the game?
No, as a matter of a fact, I will not. You keep insisting on ladder only material. I am a person who does not care if it is there or not. I'm not here martyring myself for the implementation of ladder-only items. I do not care if they are there or not. You are missing some clear points. 1.) you will likely never create the very best ladder only runewords 2.) you will likely never find the very best ladder uniques, 3.) the ones that have already been created and have already been found can be accessed via non-ladder and ladder after the first season. 4.) as Supply and Demand permits, the trade or cost of said items will predictably go down because more and more are introduced to the market.
Can I tell you why they HAVE to be there? No, no I can't. And frankly, I do not have to. There are clear reasons why such items could be available to players playing ladder, the benefits are indisputable. If you need me to spell it out for you, too bad.
So because it is possible an item may never ever drop for someone they shouldn't be worried if the item CAN actually drop for them? That is a really poor line of logic.
And you're right you don't have to, but don't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously if you can't/won't come up with any sort of argument to back your position.
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
It won't be, and you'll be marked a "troll" for even suggesting that the same people who want ladder-only items would be upset if the shoe were on the other foot.
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only.There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.
I agree with TheSeanis. He brings valid points to the table. I suggest that everyone read his posts again before making any false accusations and if you still feel like he's wrong, read them again and again.
People keep saying they'd be forced into playing ladder. No one would force you into doing anything. Chances are you won't even get to see those ladder-only legendaries regardless of your time spent farming. Also, and this is of critical importance, after the 1st season, a lot of those ladder only items would be brought into the economy, a very good point made by TheSeanis, something which i overlooked completely.
Personally, if the ladder had nothing new to bring to the table, i really don't know if i would play it. Maybe if i "beat" the game and started to get bored and wanted to change things a bit.
This is not a valid line of logic. Just because I may not ever see it drop does not mean I shouldn't have a chance to see it drop. Also consider the inverse of that. Chances are you will never see it drop in ladder-only, so therefore why does it need to drop in ladder-only?
Personally, if the ladder had nothing new to bring to the table, i really don't know if i would play it. Maybe if i "beat" the game and started to get bored and wanted to change things a bit.
Doesn't that speak volumes as to why we don't need a ladder? The actual mode of play sucks hugely. It's dominated by bots, always has been, and the only thing it brings to the table is some ladder-specific loot.
Without the loot no one would play it because it doesn't actually enhance the general gameplay.
Why not just make better loot in softcore and hardcore and forget about ladder loot and make all the players happy instead of a small sub-set of the players? What about that is so controversial?
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Path of Exile to the rescue! They are currently running a couple 4month leagues (in effect ladders), anarchy, which is softcore and onslaught, which is hardcore, where the best amulet and ring base type don't drop at all, as well as their corresponding uniques, a couple of which are an absolute must for many endgame builds. The most valuable unique item overall in the game (a chest with +1000hp, when the most you can get from any other chest is ~110) is also disabled in these leagues.
Instead, they do have some new ladder-only base types for rings and amulets, as well as a few uniques that correspond to the new base types, none of which comes even a little close to the value of top items. They are only 4 in total number, 2 for anarchy and 2 for onslaught.
They've yet to announce what will happen when the leagues end. Most people assume the new items will just start dropping again in the old leagues, but it's only an assumption at this point. Dead onslaught characters go to standard at once, while the leagues are active. Anarchy characters will go to standard when the leagues end and live onslaught characters will go to hardcore.
Current player ratios announced by the head admin were 9 anarchy:3 standard:3 onslaught:1 hardcore. Preselected league for new players in the game (as in, just installed the game and go create a character) is anarchy.
Sometimes other games happily provide relevant information to what would otherwise be hypotheticals
Does anyone know what those actual numbers are beyond ratios? Is it 18, 6, 6 and 3? is it 900000, 300000, 300000, and 100000? Truthfully what I think is more telling is that if people were actually interested in that sort of game play (ladder resets, race, rerolling, etc) then PoE would be a much, much, much more popular game.
Personally, if the ladder had nothing new to bring to the table, i really don't know if i would play it. Maybe if i "beat" the game and started to get bored and wanted to change things a bit.
Doesn't that speak volumes as to why we don't need a ladder? The actual mode of play sucks hugely. It's dominated by bots, always has been, and the only thing it brings to the table is some ladder-specific loot.
Without the loot no one would play it because it doesn't actually enhance the general gameplay.
Why not just make better loot in softcore and hardcore and forget about ladder loot and make all the players happy instead of a small sub-set of the players? What about that is so controversial?
No one has either argued for nor against that idea. I simply stated I do not care if it is there or not, because the "loot" will find its way to both realms (at least in Diablo 2) regardless. If its there, awesome, if its not, awesome.I could honestly care less. But to see so many people whine and cry if a few items were to make there way to be temporarily exclusive to ladder players. Big deal. It's already been explained that the exclusivity runs out rather quickly, and that, it IS a good way to provide incentive to play ladder. Not to mention, nothing withers into dust afterwords. It simply converts to non-ladder.
Maybe this is what you guys need: I understand why you could be upset that an item was ladder-only. Afterall, you invest your time and emotions into a character. You develop him/her. Only to see them removed from these "exclusive" items. You want a forever ladder. You are in luck! Thats called, "NON-ladder" people who play ladder want a cyclic economy and playerbase. It's not that outrageous of an idea. Not to mention, for the last time, THE BEST ITEMS IN THE GAME ARE NOT LADDER ONLY.
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Well, but there they're not really your drops anymore. You can carry them over from last season's chars or try to trade (good luck on that), but it's not like you can just create this runeword on your previously demoted character - and only creating the runeword is what makes for the experience ;-)
Since I played self-found, this wasn't really an option for me, and I had to go to ladder mode to have access to these runewords.
I never stated that Ladder only itemization was my only incentive to play ladder - but I do think that its perfectly fine if they did this. I played ladder and non ladder on Diablo 2 off and on, as recently as this year even.
No one's talking about these impossible Zod-infueled runewords. The reason why self-found players went for ladder mode is because there were awesome ladder-only low-level runewords that made self-found a lot easier.
That response is about as absurd as me going, "Well there are games where ladders already exist, they are called Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I encourage you go to play them if you would like your ladder experience".
I really only saw a benefit to low-level runewords for Hardcore mode. In my opinion, they really didnt offer much to self-found softcore players, as they tend to level up much quicker, thus, negating a lot of the inherent benefits. Thats just my opinion.
Well, I'm not an answerbag and I can't solve all of your problems. A lot of the concerns a lot of people bring up on here are erroneous and built off of false information. The droprates are the same, what do you want me to tell you? You have the same statistical odds of creating the same (creatable) items between non-ladder and ladder. If you want to play self-found and make your own stuff, by all means, GO FOR IT.
How is that erroneous?
The problem then becomes end-game. People like to farm. When people farm they want the full loot table.
SOOOO.....when ladder ends, if you still want to farm the full loot table, you have to start over again and relegate your old char to dust. Switching back to non-lad means you can no longer do all the things with RW's you once could, nor can you farm for all the items in the game.
It's a real shit position to be in.
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'Spirit' is a great example of that.
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Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
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There were plenty of great runewords, but like I said, they all found their way into non-ladder. Yes if you want to create your own ladder specific runewords, you have to play ladder. The point is, they typically are not the very greatest end-game items available. Yes they are good, I did not dispute that.
I'm not sure you're grasping what people do not want ladder-only items judging by your response. People do not want ladder-only items because they do not want to be forced to re-roll on every ladder reset to have access to every item in the game. It has nothing to do with drop rates or having false information. Others do not want to have their play style sacrificed for the play style of others when there clearly is a middle ground - a ladder system that does not have ladder only items.
Can you tell me why there HAS to be ladder-only items in the game?
Can I tell you why they HAVE to be there? No, no I can't. And frankly, I do not have to. There are clear reasons why such items could be available to players playing ladder, the benefits are indisputable. If you need me to spell it out for you, too bad.
And for everyone whining about how ladder is tainted because of botters. Well, buddy, theres a cheater in every game. EVERY game. The fact that someone has cheated should upset you, but should it deter you from ever challenging yourself and trying something? Thats just dumb. You should sell all of your consoles, never attempt to invest in the stock market, or compete for a promotion in your job. You will find yourself challenging cheaters, liars, and manipulators your entire life.
So because it is possible an item may never ever drop for someone they shouldn't be worried if the item CAN actually drop for them? That is a really poor line of logic.
And you're right you don't have to, but don't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously if you can't/won't come up with any sort of argument to back your position.
^^ This needs to be addressed.
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It won't be, and you'll be marked a "troll" for even suggesting that the same people who want ladder-only items would be upset if the shoe were on the other foot.
Even though you're 100% correct.
Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only. There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.
This is not a valid line of logic. Just because I may not ever see it drop does not mean I shouldn't have a chance to see it drop. Also consider the inverse of that. Chances are you will never see it drop in ladder-only, so therefore why does it need to drop in ladder-only?
Doesn't that speak volumes as to why we don't need a ladder? The actual mode of play sucks hugely. It's dominated by bots, always has been, and the only thing it brings to the table is some ladder-specific loot.
Without the loot no one would play it because it doesn't actually enhance the general gameplay.
Why not just make better loot in softcore and hardcore and forget about ladder loot and make all the players happy instead of a small sub-set of the players? What about that is so controversial?
Does anyone know what those actual numbers are beyond ratios? Is it 18, 6, 6 and 3? is it 900000, 300000, 300000, and 100000? Truthfully what I think is more telling is that if people were actually interested in that sort of game play (ladder resets, race, rerolling, etc) then PoE would be a much, much, much more popular game.
No one has either argued for nor against that idea. I simply stated I do not care if it is there or not, because the "loot" will find its way to both realms (at least in Diablo 2) regardless. If its there, awesome, if its not, awesome.I could honestly care less. But to see so many people whine and cry if a few items were to make there way to be temporarily exclusive to ladder players. Big deal. It's already been explained that the exclusivity runs out rather quickly, and that, it IS a good way to provide incentive to play ladder. Not to mention, nothing withers into dust afterwords. It simply converts to non-ladder.
Maybe this is what you guys need: I understand why you could be upset that an item was ladder-only. Afterall, you invest your time and emotions into a character. You develop him/her. Only to see them removed from these "exclusive" items. You want a forever ladder. You are in luck! Thats called, "NON-ladder" people who play ladder want a cyclic economy and playerbase. It's not that outrageous of an idea. Not to mention, for the last time, THE BEST ITEMS IN THE GAME ARE NOT LADDER ONLY.