Diablo 2 had no competitive aspects to it yet pvp stood strong the community made it competitive, so quit the QQ cause Diablo 3 will be exactly the same except D3 offers more to pvp than D2 did.
Casual is such a loosely-related term these days, Some feel casual is too easy, or like a facebook game where I can come and go when I please and it is overly simplified for a childs use. Others feel Casual is just making it more accessible. I believe in the latter. Casual doesn't necessarily mean bad, And in Diablo's case it is the latter. they aren't oversimplifying the game, there are some aspects that the average casual player won't use, especially if they flesh out the rune system the way they want it to be fleshed out. Plus adding content will seriouslly push back this game, which will just make EVERYBODY mad which is the exact opposite of what they want. In their mind they probably said "I'd rather alienate a few minorities for now, than the entire fan base just to add new feature for release." I'm sure somewhere down the road they'll add a new PvP mode, or some cooler features, but for release which they want to happen by the end of this year, its just not happening. I read somebody saying something about people are worried because SC2 didn't ship with chat channels, and all these feature that are mainly battle.net features, to that point they have a separate Battle.net team that works with the team only for the layout and graphics, all the features of B.net are made by the B.net team, so blaming the actual development team of the game on something that isn't their fault isn't very fair.
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
and don't tell me that's too confusing or hard because it's not
Sigh, look at WoW, look at how difficult it is to balance between the different classes in PvP and PvE. Look how long it took D2 to get to a relative balanced state.
Now, Diablo 3 has 20+ skills, spread out between the five classes and each skill has 5 different configurations worth of runes. And you want them to design all of that twice through, even though expansions are still incoming, which would also require balance design of its own.
It's a nightmare.
Diablo 3 is the successor to Diablo 2, if you haven't figured it out yet. And Diablo 2 is a PvP lite game, focusing on story telling, which would make sense that it's sequel follow in the same footsteps.
Look how long it took D2 to get to a relative balanced state.
I disagree here with this point. Diablo has always been balanced in a sense. No 1 class is overpowered, there is always a class or build that has an edge over another one. Diablo PvP is much like a fighting game in there are tier lists. Ele druid vs Hammerdin would be like a 8-2 matchup in Druid's favor. This is of course at high level play. Pally only gets the 2 by glitching game too with desynch, without it I would say it's a straight up murder, but the barbarian owns the druid, and the pally owns the barb.
I disagree here with this point. Diablo has always been balanced in a sense. No 1 class is overpowered, there is always a class or build that has an edge over another one. Diablo PvP is much like a fighting game in there are tier lists. Ele druid vs Hammerdin would be like a 8-2 matchup in Druid's favor. This is of course at high level play. Pally only gets the 2 by glitching game too with desynch, without it I would say it's a straight up murder, but the barbarian owns the druid, and the pally owns the barb.
I get what you are saying, and I think that is why Blizzard is going for 3v3 PvP match-ups, which would make it a bit more fair and equaled out.
Then again, I still feel runes adds a whole new dynamic that D2 sorely lacked. And I still think D2's skills trees failed a bit in a sense in what it could potentially have given us. I mean, thirty skills and most classes are centered on only 4 to 6 useful builds, while some skills are even considered to be useless. I would expect at least triple the amount of combinations, but I'm hoping D3 improves on it with the rune system.
And I agree with what Don_guillotine said. Diablo 3 does fall into the latter category. The game doesn't expect intense amount of dedication from your part, and if you want WoW raid level intensity from the game, then you must be very confused.
Diablo 2 didn't expect that sort of dedication from you and Diablo 3 will be exactly the same. It will still grow more difficult and hell will really test your skills. The game will not be a push over, not in the least.
I love diablo, but honestly what koolaid have some of you guys been drinking? Worrying if d3 will be too easy? What made d2 hard? Lagging out playing hardcore?
Its funny the games that are the easiest to be good at, have the most elitists. Look at Dota, LoL, HoN, WoW. Games you can blame others for your failures.
Pvp will be fine. I dont understand what in the world makes you guys think tdm mode somehow invalidates all strategy, and "skill". I played tdm in a lot of shooters, in tournaments too. No one there took it lightly.
This zerg fest your talking about isnt gonna happen but at the lowest possible level of pvp. Near the top of the matchmaking, I'm pretty sure they will be some very tight, fun games. You SHOULD be facing like-minded individuals and teams.
Because you know, if your competitive, you should have a team so this zergfest your talking about should have some strategy.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
Anyways I'm looking forward to pvp. I think its gonna be a blast. Looks more involved then d2 and TDM actually allows comebacks. More often then not in a game like this(Take wow for example) once one person is down your in bad shape. You get to regroup and readjust this way.
And for the casual thing. Who cares? Its an easy game, all diablo games were easy. I mean you move your freaking guy by clicking the mouse for god's sake. So a 6 year old can play it. News for you, I saw a 3 year old solve a rubicks cube in 11 minutes on youtube, and an 8 year old solve it in 33 seconds. Now, who cares how old someone is?
Pvp will be fine. I dont understand what in the world makes you guys think tdm mode somehow invalidates all strategy, and "skill". I played tdm in a lot of shooters, in tournaments too. No one there took it lightly.
This zerg fest your talking about isnt gonna happen but at the lowest possible level of pvp. Near the top of the matchmaking, I'm pretty sure they will be some very tight, fun games. You SHOULD be facing like-minded individuals and teams.
I don't think PvPers are upset so much about the current system, but rather that system being the climax of PvP in Diablo 3. I think people expect a lot more from Blizzard, and simply can't understand why some variety and flavor can't be added to the PvP scene. There are ways to please both PvPers and PvMers so that an all-around great game can be achieved, but instead people seem to want to turn the argument into an "all or nothing" debate. We're all in this together, people. Adding options to the game for a wider audience to enjoy is usually not a bad decision, especially when the game would benefit so much from it (think replay value).
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
You could be loaded in gear but if you don't know how to use your character anyone could beat you, that is what made Diablo special. People tend to think good gear = god at pvp which it doesn't in Diablo, it might in WoW but that game is nothing but gear and Auto aimed skills which means the skill level is pretty much low. You are saying WoW is better and more involved yet WoW doesn't have near the reaction time required for D2 pvp nor does it have juking or aiming factor. Diablo is like chess as WoW is to checkers.
You could be loaded in gear but if you don't know how to use your character anyone could beat you, that is what made Diablo special. People tend to think good gear = god at pvp which it doesn't in Diablo, it might in WoW but that game is nothing but gear and Auto aimed skills which means the skill level is pretty much low. You are saying WoW is better and more involved yet WoW doesn't have near the reaction time required for D2 pvp nor does it have juking or aiming factor. Diablo is like chess as WoW is to checkers.
And I'm pretty sure D3 will continue the trend. We don't have proof that it wont, to the contrary, it seems like there is a lot of thought that needs to go into your build. Your six skills need to complement one another, and with only 3 passives you'll need to plan and build those 3 around your playing style with the six. Furthermore, you will need to choose your runes very carefully, or it could ruin your whole build.
Nah, I'd say D3 will require a lot of skill and forethought if you want to be good at it.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
You could be loaded in gear but if you don't know how to use your character anyone could beat you, that is what made Diablo special. People tend to think good gear = god at pvp which it doesn't in Diablo, it might in WoW but that game is nothing but gear and Auto aimed skills which means the skill level is pretty much low. You are saying WoW is better and more involved yet WoW doesn't have near the reaction time required for D2 pvp nor does it have juking or aiming factor. Diablo is like chess as WoW is to checkers.
I'm gonna flat out pretend this post wasnt meant to actually be serious. Its funny you say gear meant nothing in Diablo, when Diablo is ALL gear. Hell most all rpg pvp games is very very very heavy in the gear to skill ratio.
This is why games like SC2, quake, and such are actually played as esports, whereas not even wow is played as one anymore.
I played my fair share of Diablo. From Release till wow Release. I dont consider using a few hotkeys and dodging some attack the pinnacle of my competitive gaming history. Esp. since the majority of the battles were simply won by showing up in the best gear available at the time.
It was a blast yes. It was the first rpg pvp I had ever done. I plan on pvp being my endgame focus for D3. But I'm not gonna be delusional and biased and sit here and say in good faith diablo 2 pvp was the most skillful things I've had the priviledge of playing. It was some of the most fun pvp I've ever done, but the most fun does not equal the most skillful.
Most people think the things they are good at are the most skillful. Or the things they play. Case in point I went gambling this weekend. My stepdad ONLY plays 3 card poker because he thinks its more skillful then texas holdem. Simply because he actually wins on a 3 card poker table. When its not, its just more fun because hes good at it.
Just enjoy the pvp for what it is when it comes out. If you want to do something "skillful" there are a bunch other games where you will garner far more notariety being good at then diablo.
You know what would make this VERY easy? Stop expecting e-sport level PvP in a game that the developer has specifically stated will be nearly completely focused on PvE. Can't do that? Play a different game.
Why can they not balance around PvP? Because many of the skills that exist would be rather overpowered for PvP as they were designed with wiping out hordes of enemies in PvE in mind. They don't want to give you a separate skill set specifically for PvP because not only does it take more development time and money, but it also creates conflicts for learning how your character works.
All of this was stated in interviews and videos. I didn't do anything special to figure it out. Diablo 3 will be about progressing through the story and smashing monsters (possibly with a few friends, if ya choose). Guess what Diablo 2 was about.. oh yeah.. same thing. Diablo 1? Yep, bingo. Diablo 2's PvP was in the form of turning a flag on so that you could fight outside of town, and anyone in super gear owned you. Diablo 1's PvP was, if I remember correctly, just the fact that you could hurt allies (been a long time since I played 1). Diablo 3 is going to have an arena, achievements, titles, and levels for PvP. I'd say they are actually giving you that want PvP quite a bit more then they have in the past, yet you complain.
I, personally, am glad they are focusing on the PvE. Heck, I'll probably actually try out the PvP even (though I've never cared for Diablo PvP that much). I'm glad for the changes to stats/skills. I'm looking forward to the dual auction house system. Diablo 3 seems like it'll be a really awesome game.
Do we know why they are so intent on not making the game a viable e-sport? This is why I figured they might just be being lazy...
They could reach a new audience with this game AND make it an e-sport (Which also makes the game deeper/better). But that would definitely be more work, and they can probably grab the same number of players regardless with this "casual" game. So why do all that extra work right? If they figure they'll make the same money anyways.
So when they justify leaving out portions of the game because it is not part of their "vision", are they really just being lazy but obviously don't want to say that? (lazy=savvy from a business perspective I suppose :P)
Because they looked at WoW and realized trying to turn an RPG into an e-sport is completely idiotic. I say this from the perspective of someone with multiple gladiator titles, a rank 1 title, and I also played at an MLG. There's a reason WoW is the 'e-sport' game that every other game looks down on: it isn't cut out for it.
Diablo is cut from the same cloth, with many classes, skill setups and gear choices combining for an insane variety of options. And even your best efforts at balance will never get rid of hard counters when one comp beat another comp purely based on gear/class/skill choices.
Plus I assume Blizz will release DLC or expansions for this game, new lvls or skills maybe, new gear definitely, which will just screw up balance over and over again. WoW suffered from this, especially when expansions were released (remember season 5 anyone? LOL).
Long story short, Diablo cannot be made into a non-joke esport, so they figured they wouldn't even try. Their goal is to make it fun for as many people as possible. I can't fault them for that.
PS; I still want a ladder anyways. Ladder =/= making it an esport.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
You could be loaded in gear but if you don't know how to use your character anyone could beat you, that is what made Diablo special. People tend to think good gear = god at pvp which it doesn't in Diablo, it might in WoW but that game is nothing but gear and Auto aimed skills which means the skill level is pretty much low. You are saying WoW is better and more involved yet WoW doesn't have near the reaction time required for D2 pvp nor does it have juking or aiming factor. Diablo is like chess as WoW is to checkers.
I'm gonna flat out pretend this post wasnt meant to actually be serious. Its funny you say gear meant nothing in Diablo, when Diablo is ALL gear. Hell most all rpg pvp games is very very very heavy in the gear to skill ratio.
This is why games like SC2, quake, and such are actually played as esports, whereas not even wow is played as one anymore.
I played my fair share of Diablo. From Release till wow Release. I dont consider using a few hotkeys and dodging some attack the pinnacle of my competitive gaming history. Esp. since the majority of the battles were simply won by showing up in the best gear available at the time.
It was a blast yes. It was the first rpg pvp I had ever done. I plan on pvp being my endgame focus for D3. But I'm not gonna be delusional and biased and sit here and say in good faith diablo 2 pvp was the most skillful things I've had the priviledge of playing. It was some of the most fun pvp I've ever done, but the most fun does not equal the most skillful.
Most people think the things they are good at are the most skillful. Or the things they play. Case in point I went gambling this weekend. My stepdad ONLY plays 3 card poker because he thinks its more skillful then texas holdem. Simply because he actually wins on a 3 card poker table. When its not, its just more fun because hes good at it.
Just enjoy the pvp for what it is when it comes out. If you want to do something "skillful" there are a bunch other games where you will garner far more notariety being good at then diablo.
Nah im not joking. What other RPG or game bases your win on the ability to dodge attacks and aim your own? FPS? Fighter? Diablo has the elements to make it a great PvP game, WoW does not. Again if you think gear makes or breaks Diablo PvP then we can go and make some open battle.net characters, you can get your guy the best legit gear in the game and ill make a guy and go buy gear off charsi and ill be a lower level and I can show you that your gear doesn't mean jack compared to skill buddy. Anyone who says gear > skill in Diablo 2 simply wasn't good at PvP.
Glad to see I'm agreeing with you 100% on this Vlad, skill far outweighs gear, in fact it does in almost every game at max level. I always find it more enjoyable when someone with their uber l33t gear challenges me and I rock their pants off them.
For a game to be an esport, skill has to be everything though. It doesn't matter if you can beat people with better gear who are bad. In an esport setting, everyone will be really, really good at the game. Everyone will be about as good as you. And then the guy with the better gear will win. Or the guy who lucked into a skill/rune setup that counters yours. Or the guys who lucked into a team comp that counters yours.
It's true when a game is an e-sport it attracts much more competitive players so skill and gear got more hand in hand, I still think skill inches out gear though.
Jay Wilson has boasted even though D3 is not an e-sport it will have a better match making system than other Blizzard titles. So if you're kicking all sorts of ass early on you will eventually get paired with other ass kickers.
For a game to be an esport, skill has to be everything though. It doesn't matter if you can beat people with better gear who are bad. In an esport setting, everyone will be really, really good at the game. Everyone will be about as good as you. And then the guy with the better gear will win. Or the guy who lucked into a skill/rune setup that counters yours. Or the guys who lucked into a team comp that counters yours.
I know, and I am not looking for it to become an E-sport, I just want options for PvP both in arena and mid game.
You know... I remember back in Diablo 2, the Paladin would stand outside of town and spam hammers so the hammers would be right on the edge of town and kill anybody that exits...
That doesn't take skill, that takes clicking.
As for Diablo 3, Activision-Blizzard did right with adding the arenas. It's one thing I thought Condor/Blizzard North/Runic Games was missing with Diablo 2, any support for PvP.
As for Chess vs Checkers, Checkers is much harder then Chess imo.
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D2 12 years old
failed logic <_<
Now, Diablo 3 has 20+ skills, spread out between the five classes and each skill has 5 different configurations worth of runes. And you want them to design all of that twice through, even though expansions are still incoming, which would also require balance design of its own.
It's a nightmare.
Diablo 3 is the successor to Diablo 2, if you haven't figured it out yet. And Diablo 2 is a PvP lite game, focusing on story telling, which would make sense that it's sequel follow in the same footsteps.
Failed logic on your part.
Then again, I still feel runes adds a whole new dynamic that D2 sorely lacked. And I still think D2's skills trees failed a bit in a sense in what it could potentially have given us. I mean, thirty skills and most classes are centered on only 4 to 6 useful builds, while some skills are even considered to be useless. I would expect at least triple the amount of combinations, but I'm hoping D3 improves on it with the rune system.
And I agree with what Don_guillotine said. Diablo 3 does fall into the latter category. The game doesn't expect intense amount of dedication from your part, and if you want WoW raid level intensity from the game, then you must be very confused.
Diablo 2 didn't expect that sort of dedication from you and Diablo 3 will be exactly the same. It will still grow more difficult and hell will really test your skills. The game will not be a push over, not in the least.
Its funny the games that are the easiest to be good at, have the most elitists. Look at Dota, LoL, HoN, WoW. Games you can blame others for your failures.
Pvp will be fine. I dont understand what in the world makes you guys think tdm mode somehow invalidates all strategy, and "skill". I played tdm in a lot of shooters, in tournaments too. No one there took it lightly.
This zerg fest your talking about isnt gonna happen but at the lowest possible level of pvp. Near the top of the matchmaking, I'm pretty sure they will be some very tight, fun games. You SHOULD be facing like-minded individuals and teams.
Because you know, if your competitive, you should have a team so this zergfest your talking about should have some strategy.
I dont see what was so skillful about d2 pvp. Oh look I'm loaded in gear I win. Oh damn I dodged your attack you lost. It was honestly like a precursor to DOTA. Limited skills, mostly clicking, reaction time, gear, and juking. Hell, WoW pvp is more involved.(Flame me but its true). If you guys cared that much about being the greatest pvper ever, you would do it where the skill set needs to be higher.
Anyways I'm looking forward to pvp. I think its gonna be a blast. Looks more involved then d2 and TDM actually allows comebacks. More often then not in a game like this(Take wow for example) once one person is down your in bad shape. You get to regroup and readjust this way.
And for the casual thing. Who cares? Its an easy game, all diablo games were easy. I mean you move your freaking guy by clicking the mouse for god's sake. So a 6 year old can play it. News for you, I saw a 3 year old solve a rubicks cube in 11 minutes on youtube, and an 8 year old solve it in 33 seconds. Now, who cares how old someone is?
I don't think PvPers are upset so much about the current system, but rather that system being the climax of PvP in Diablo 3. I think people expect a lot more from Blizzard, and simply can't understand why some variety and flavor can't be added to the PvP scene. There are ways to please both PvPers and PvMers so that an all-around great game can be achieved, but instead people seem to want to turn the argument into an "all or nothing" debate. We're all in this together, people. Adding options to the game for a wider audience to enjoy is usually not a bad decision, especially when the game would benefit so much from it (think replay value).
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Nah, I'd say D3 will require a lot of skill and forethought if you want to be good at it.
I'm gonna flat out pretend this post wasnt meant to actually be serious. Its funny you say gear meant nothing in Diablo, when Diablo is ALL gear. Hell most all rpg pvp games is very very very heavy in the gear to skill ratio.
This is why games like SC2, quake, and such are actually played as esports, whereas not even wow is played as one anymore.
I played my fair share of Diablo. From Release till wow Release. I dont consider using a few hotkeys and dodging some attack the pinnacle of my competitive gaming history. Esp. since the majority of the battles were simply won by showing up in the best gear available at the time.
It was a blast yes. It was the first rpg pvp I had ever done. I plan on pvp being my endgame focus for D3. But I'm not gonna be delusional and biased and sit here and say in good faith diablo 2 pvp was the most skillful things I've had the priviledge of playing. It was some of the most fun pvp I've ever done, but the most fun does not equal the most skillful.
Most people think the things they are good at are the most skillful. Or the things they play. Case in point I went gambling this weekend. My stepdad ONLY plays 3 card poker because he thinks its more skillful then texas holdem. Simply because he actually wins on a 3 card poker table. When its not, its just more fun because hes good at it.
Just enjoy the pvp for what it is when it comes out. If you want to do something "skillful" there are a bunch other games where you will garner far more notariety being good at then diablo.
Why can they not balance around PvP? Because many of the skills that exist would be rather overpowered for PvP as they were designed with wiping out hordes of enemies in PvE in mind. They don't want to give you a separate skill set specifically for PvP because not only does it take more development time and money, but it also creates conflicts for learning how your character works.
All of this was stated in interviews and videos. I didn't do anything special to figure it out. Diablo 3 will be about progressing through the story and smashing monsters (possibly with a few friends, if ya choose). Guess what Diablo 2 was about.. oh yeah.. same thing. Diablo 1? Yep, bingo. Diablo 2's PvP was in the form of turning a flag on so that you could fight outside of town, and anyone in super gear owned you. Diablo 1's PvP was, if I remember correctly, just the fact that you could hurt allies (been a long time since I played 1). Diablo 3 is going to have an arena, achievements, titles, and levels for PvP. I'd say they are actually giving you that want PvP quite a bit more then they have in the past, yet you complain.
I, personally, am glad they are focusing on the PvE. Heck, I'll probably actually try out the PvP even (though I've never cared for Diablo PvP that much). I'm glad for the changes to stats/skills. I'm looking forward to the dual auction house system. Diablo 3 seems like it'll be a really awesome game.
Because they looked at WoW and realized trying to turn an RPG into an e-sport is completely idiotic. I say this from the perspective of someone with multiple gladiator titles, a rank 1 title, and I also played at an MLG. There's a reason WoW is the 'e-sport' game that every other game looks down on: it isn't cut out for it.
Diablo is cut from the same cloth, with many classes, skill setups and gear choices combining for an insane variety of options. And even your best efforts at balance will never get rid of hard counters when one comp beat another comp purely based on gear/class/skill choices.
Plus I assume Blizz will release DLC or expansions for this game, new lvls or skills maybe, new gear definitely, which will just screw up balance over and over again. WoW suffered from this, especially when expansions were released (remember season 5 anyone? LOL).
Long story short, Diablo cannot be made into a non-joke esport, so they figured they wouldn't even try. Their goal is to make it fun for as many people as possible. I can't fault them for that.
PS; I still want a ladder anyways. Ladder =/= making it an esport.
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Wise ElderJay Wilson has boasted even though D3 is not an e-sport it will have a better match making system than other Blizzard titles. So if you're kicking all sorts of ass early on you will eventually get paired with other ass kickers.
That doesn't take skill, that takes clicking.
As for Diablo 3, Activision-Blizzard did right with adding the arenas. It's one thing I thought Condor/Blizzard North/Runic Games was missing with Diablo 2, any support for PvP.
As for Chess vs Checkers, Checkers is much harder then Chess imo.