Yeah, and it would definitely just take two minutes to implement too, damn them lazy bastards.
Currently we have 1, I repeat ONE single arena mode for PvP. Are you really trying to infer that this is an acceptable balance of development time compared to the other 99.9999999999% of the game that's completely devoted to PvE?
I understand this is primarily a PvE game, and I'm fine with that. The point is that it would take a very minute amount of effort (when compared with PvE developement) to implement a few creative PvP options. It wouldn't hurt ANYONE and the game would be much more well-rounded and draw in a broader audience because of it.
If even a fraction of development was spent on PvP (judging by how awesome PvE is looking) I have no doubt we could have a great PvP experience in Diablo 3.
Explain to me what the responsibilities of the "PvP strike team" (Jay Wilson quote) are again? What do they even do?
- no balance
- no design
- no ranking system
WTF do they do?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
For the quadrillionth time we don't want razor edge balance at the expense of the PvE game. WE DON'T WANT THAT. IF POSSIBLE it would be nice to have PvP abilities separated from PvE if the imbalance is ridiculous, (Jay Wilson has stated that the system is already implemented to achieve this) but mainly we're simply asking for some FUN and RESPECTABLE PvP systems rather than the mindless zerg PvP that's in the game now.
Please stop using this argument!!!
Who are "we"? The original poster who started this very thread wants it, so it's somewhat possible that the response was to him, you know.
"We" would be people who realize that the heaping pile that is PvP currently in Diablo 3 is a disgrace to the Blizzard name. "We" are also rational people who do realize that this is primarily a PvE game, but have enough common sense to realize that a small amount (when compared with effort put into PvE) of PvP flavor in it's midst would add a tremendous amount of fun and enormous amount of replay value, which would also benefit the game greatly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Yeah, and it would definitely just take two minutes to implement too, damn them lazy bastards.
Currently we have 1, I repeat ONE single arena mode for PvP. Are you really trying to infer that this is an acceptable balance of development time compared to the other 99.9999999999% of the game that's completely devoted to PvE?
I understand this is primarily a PvE game, and I'm fine with that. The point is that it would take a very minute amount of effort (when compared with PvE developement) to implement a few creative PvP options. It wouldn't hurt ANYONE and the game would be much more well-rounded and draw in a broader audience because of it.
If even a fraction of development was spent on PvP (judging by how awesome PvE is looking) I have no doubt we could have a great PvP experience in Diablo 3.
Explain to me what the responsibilities of the "PvP strike team" (Jay Wilson quote) are again? What do they even do?
- no balance
- no design
- no ranking system
WTF do they do?
I agree with you. However I am sure more PvP modes will reveal themselves either by launch or after launch. I don't follow WoW but from what I remember they didn't have jack for PvP and now it is considered an "E-sport" which is a bunch of crock but that is another story. If there is a demand for it Blizzard will comply. Let them finish Diablo how they feel and once we get our hands on it then we can make steps toward a true PvP for Diablo 3.
Thanks for the deeper insight on why its so hard to balance. It makes more sense now.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
Thanks for the deeper insight on why its so hard to balance. It makes more sense now.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
There has already been a thread regarding labeling people who bought items with real money. It will never make it in game, it segregates the community. Even without the RMAH people would buy items with money, this just makes it more convenient, and if it allows Blizzard to properly support Diablo 3 and keep it lag, bug and hack free then fantastic.
Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato
I guess money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game... i.e. who is the richest D3 player, since at some point the two currencies will even out to a stable conversion rate, and both will be of value.
Though I doubt blizz will make available how much each player has profited or spent from playing
I guess money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game... i.e. who is the richest D3 player, since at some point the two currencies will even out to a stable conversion rate, and both will be of value.
Though I doubt blizz will make available how much each player has profited or spent from playing
Thanks for the deeper insight on why its so hard to balance. It makes more sense now.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
There has already been a thread regarding labeling people who bought items with real money. It will never make it in game, it segregates the community. Even without the RMAH people would buy items with money, this just makes it more convenient, and if it allows Blizzard to properly support Diablo 3 and keep it lag, bug and hack free then fantastic.
Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato
Thanks for the info from the other post. This makes sense, and I agree with most of it. Though, the person you described should have no reason to feel ashamed... and thus shouldn't care that it is revealed that they bought their items with real money....
I guess most of my reason for wanting a system of identification like this is if their was a quality PvP system implemented. That way if someone was say ranked #1, but they bought all their items... Then I could say, well... whatever, I don't feel so inferior... That guy just bought his #1 spot. Or, even better, have a whole other ladder for people using only dropped items etc....
I'm not the type to flame anyone, but I guess that could also happen, which obviously blizz would try and avoid.
I guess money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game... i.e. who is the richest D3 player, since at some point the two currencies will even out to a stable conversion rate, and both will be of value.
Though I doubt blizz will make available how much each player has profited or spent from playing
Thanks for the deeper insight on why its so hard to balance. It makes more sense now.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
There has already been a thread regarding labeling people who bought items with real money. It will never make it in game, it segregates the community. Even without the RMAH people would buy items with money, this just makes it more convenient, and if it allows Blizzard to properly support Diablo 3 and keep it lag, bug and hack free then fantastic.
Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato
Thanks for the info from the other post. This makes sense, and I agree with most of it. Though, the person you described should have no reason to feel ashamed... and thus shouldn't care that it is revealed that they bought their items with real money....
I guess most of my reason for wanting a system of identification like this is if their was a quality PvP system implemented. That way if someone was say ranked #1, but they bought all their items... Then I could say, well... whatever, I don't feel so inferior... That guy just bought his #1 spot. Or, even better, have a whole other ladder for people using only dropped items etc....
I'm not the type to flame anyone, but I guess that could also happen, which obviously blizz would try and avoid.
I get your point, however there is no telling how bad of a grieving that person would receive from others for buying items because it isn't "legit" in their eyes. Also there will still be shops online that will sell items for money and there is no way to track that, so anyone who didn't want to be grieved would use that which would hurt the AH in the long run.
I guess money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game... i.e. who is the richest D3 player, since at some point the two currencies will even out to a stable conversion rate, and both will be of value.
Though I doubt blizz will make available how much each player has profited or spent from playing
Implying there is something wrong with that?
Expand on what 'that' is referring to.
"money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game"
I guess money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game... i.e. who is the richest D3 player, since at some point the two currencies will even out to a stable conversion rate, and both will be of value.
Though I doubt blizz will make available how much each player has profited or spent from playing
Implying there is something wrong with that?
Expand on what 'that' is referring to.
"money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game"
Is that bad?
Nope... I want competitive aspects. That was just a realization after discussing the lack of competitiveness.
Diablo 2 had no competitive aspects to it yet pvp stood strong the community made it competitive, so quit the QQ cause Diablo 3 will be exactly the same except D3 offers more to pvp than D2 did.
I wasn't aware that PvP determined whether or not a game was casual.
Diablo 1 had no real PvP aspect, it had no coop aspect either. It was largely a single player game with multiplayer kind of thrown in there. Even playing with friends it paid to have a trainer running with no drops on death, for when they let out that ill-timed chain lightning. Playing with strangers was a gamble, hopefully they didn't just kill you and loot all your gear while you respawned in town.
Diablo 2 largely built upon the Diablo 1 system. It added an actual party system, and the ability to go hostile against a player. Granted it took them a few patches to get it right. Unilateral hostility combined with the ability to go through TPs makes playing hardcore with anyone but friends a bit uneasy. Aside from that the dueling system was largely based upon player rules. It was mostly an honor system that you wouldn't stand outside of town and spam blizz orb or multishot. The ladder system was purely for PvE.
In a word, Diablo 3 is just building on its roots.
Diablo 2 had no competitive aspects to it yet pvp stood strong the community made it competitive, so quit the QQ cause Diablo 3 will be exactly the same except D3 offers more to pvp than D2 did.
Exactly! I don't see how people can crucify Diablo 3's PvP aspect, while Diablo 2 barely had any. There was a button to activate it and realms where it was always activated, and that was it. To most, it barely existed.
The only point it ever served was to match two player's gear and skill builds against one another, and bragging rights (the ears). There was little to it at all.
Diablo 3 actually added in a PvP mode, something they can actually expand on.
Which brings me to another point:
The balancing act.
Look to WoW for reference, and the same holds true even in Diablo 2 for that matter.
WoW is very old and has always struggled with PvP vs PvE balancing. It probably never would be balanced. A huge amount of effort goes into making both sides balanced and so Diablo team knows this better than anyone.
To me the competition is what makes things "fun". Its what drives me to want more loot.
Than quite simply you need to look elsewhere. There are many games out there that do "e-sport" much better than any Diablo game ever has, add that to the developer forwardly proclaiming that they have no interest in Diablo going down the road of an "e-sport," I would imagine you time would be better spent on a true competitive game
Do we know why they are so intent on not making the game a viable e-sport? This is why I figured they might just be being lazy...
They could reach a new audience with this game AND make it an e-sport (Which also makes the game deeper/better). But that would definitely be more work, and they can probably grab the same number of players regardless with this "casual" game. So why do all that extra work right? If they figure they'll make the same money anyways.
So when they justify leaving out portions of the game because it is not part of their "vision", are they really just being lazy but obviously don't want to say that? (lazy=savvy from a business perspective I suppose :P)
Yes, we do. Jay has said many times that they want PvE to be the driving force and they don't want any PvP balancing to impact that.
They are not being lazy (which seems a really stupid assumption), and suddenly switching gears and making an e-sport balanced PvP experience would like require gutting a lot of skills/rune combinations which are just too imbalanced versus other players *and* coming up with a lot more PvP content, very likely pushing the game back substantially.
Also, saying they are "leaving out portions of the game" implies those parts were actually in the game or planning in some form which there is no indication of, despite some players wishing it so.
uhh... it doesn't need to affect PvE
skills can have a PvE and PvP content
and don't tell me that's too confusing or hard because it's not
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Currently we have 1, I repeat ONE single arena mode for PvP. Are you really trying to infer that this is an acceptable balance of development time compared to the other 99.9999999999% of the game that's completely devoted to PvE?
I understand this is primarily a PvE game, and I'm fine with that. The point is that it would take a very minute amount of effort (when compared with PvE developement) to implement a few creative PvP options. It wouldn't hurt ANYONE and the game would be much more well-rounded and draw in a broader audience because of it.
If even a fraction of development was spent on PvP (judging by how awesome PvE is looking) I have no doubt we could have a great PvP experience in Diablo 3.
Explain to me what the responsibilities of the "PvP strike team" (Jay Wilson quote) are again? What do they even do?
- no balance
- no design
- no ranking system
WTF do they do?
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
"We" would be people who realize that the heaping pile that is PvP currently in Diablo 3 is a disgrace to the Blizzard name. "We" are also rational people who do realize that this is primarily a PvE game, but have enough common sense to realize that a small amount (when compared with effort put into PvE) of PvP flavor in it's midst would add a tremendous amount of fun and enormous amount of replay value, which would also benefit the game greatly.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
But yea... still sorta uneasy about Bashiok not refuting that a 6-year old could be competitive with anyone. I hope he was just ignoring the extremity of that question and not actually agreeing with it.
I realize Diablo III is a PvE foused game... But at some point the story is told, and the PvE turns into just a grind. And if all that is left when this occurs is a half-assed PvP then I think players will leave fairly quickly. There are only so many people who will grind for the sake of grinding.
Also, What are the odds blizz implements a way of knowing if someones items were dropped/a gift/crafted/purchased for gold/purchased for dollars when you inspect them? I wonder if they've considered this. I would like this. Any thoughts for/against? Though... I just realized, even if there was a little icon to say "Purchased with dollars" you still wouldn't know if they earned those dollars from in-game sales or transferred from their credit card...
Here is a quote from the other thread that wraps up the whole labeling people quite nicely:
"It's like this really:
1 guy is a dedicated gamer
1 guy is a busy workaholic
Both players enjoy Diablo 3 the same on the BASIC levels of the game, however ! The workaholic doesn't have time or dedication to finding all the items and spending endless hours on the stuff himself. He doesn't think that buying stuff is a cop-out, because he spends time playing the game looking for items, but not enough to get him the endgame stuff. He spends his time working, socializing and what not. This gives him money. He uses the money to spend on entertainment, he uses diablo 3 as casual entertainment, because he ackknowledges that he doesn't have the time required to farm every item in the game.
Now is he a bad guy? Does he care less about the game overall? No. But he uses the system to get the things he wants. If he wants to buy the entire game of items and think that's fun, then why is that wrong? How is that more wrong, than the dedicated game-aholic who spends all his freetime playing to get items and then perhaps sell them to get more items?
The dedicated gamer gets angry, because he feels that his way of playing and having fun,is perhaps the correct one, and he therefore looks down on the busy workaholic guy for buying items. He demands satisfaction.
Both gamers are having equal fun, with farming or buying stuff and then enjoying the game." - BrokenTomato
Though I doubt blizz will make available how much each player has profited or spent from playing
Implying there is something wrong with that?
Thanks for the info from the other post. This makes sense, and I agree with most of it. Though, the person you described should have no reason to feel ashamed... and thus shouldn't care that it is revealed that they bought their items with real money....
I guess most of my reason for wanting a system of identification like this is if their was a quality PvP system implemented. That way if someone was say ranked #1, but they bought all their items... Then I could say, well... whatever, I don't feel so inferior... That guy just bought his #1 spot. Or, even better, have a whole other ladder for people using only dropped items etc....
I'm not the type to flame anyone, but I guess that could also happen, which obviously blizz would try and avoid.
"money/gold will also be a competitive aspect of the game"
Is that bad?
Nope... I want competitive aspects. That was just a realization after discussing the lack of competitiveness.
Righty o' then.
Diablo 1 had no real PvP aspect, it had no coop aspect either. It was largely a single player game with multiplayer kind of thrown in there. Even playing with friends it paid to have a trainer running with no drops on death, for when they let out that ill-timed chain lightning. Playing with strangers was a gamble, hopefully they didn't just kill you and loot all your gear while you respawned in town.
Diablo 2 largely built upon the Diablo 1 system. It added an actual party system, and the ability to go hostile against a player. Granted it took them a few patches to get it right. Unilateral hostility combined with the ability to go through TPs makes playing hardcore with anyone but friends a bit uneasy. Aside from that the dueling system was largely based upon player rules. It was mostly an honor system that you wouldn't stand outside of town and spam blizz orb or multishot. The ladder system was purely for PvE.
In a word, Diablo 3 is just building on its roots.
You misunderstood then, the balancing is going to be entirely on PvE, not PvP. Blizzard is not going to ignore balance at all.
Exactly! I don't see how people can crucify Diablo 3's PvP aspect, while Diablo 2 barely had any. There was a button to activate it and realms where it was always activated, and that was it. To most, it barely existed.
The only point it ever served was to match two player's gear and skill builds against one another, and bragging rights (the ears). There was little to it at all.
Diablo 3 actually added in a PvP mode, something they can actually expand on.
Which brings me to another point:
The balancing act.
Look to WoW for reference, and the same holds true even in Diablo 2 for that matter.
WoW is very old and has always struggled with PvP vs PvE balancing. It probably never would be balanced. A huge amount of effort goes into making both sides balanced and so Diablo team knows this better than anyone.
skills can have a PvE and PvP content
and don't tell me that's too confusing or hard because it's not