Another way of saying what I want to say I suppose is that we expect any game mode called "nightmare" or "hell" to be just that: a challenge.
I expect to have to be strategic and to really think about how I'll overcome monsters and not just go around swinging my sword. I expect the penalties for failing to be severe. I expect that boss/quest monsters will not be easy kills and I may need to use a specific equipment build or skill combination.
But going back to my example in the original post, I would need to completely reallocate skill points by moving some into the elemental tree. That tree sucks - but that's my opinion - and then my maxed out bear and etc might suffer. It's like asking a Sorceress to abandon fire and go for lightning. It shouldn't be necessary.
And it's impossible to respec in D2 anyway.
I could also hunt down some gear that would go a long way in removing the (I think) 140% cold resistance to below 100% and so on. My character hasn't found any gear like that. I don't want to go back to Nightmare and troll for gear.
Yes, I have the gear in my mules from other characters and using a second computer and a second copy of D2 I can.... but my point is that we shouldn't need to do that.
And I should have a free choice to solo.
I have uber bonemancers for these situations as we all know about bone skills versus elemental and physical immunes.
But the players who can call up a buddy with a bonemancer (actually I got someone to play my uber bonemancer on a home network) are few and far between. And that's just not fair.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
So we've got over the problem of colour in D3. Great. Now let's argue about everything else not yet set in stone and help make this game simply great! Game on.
Every class and almost every build had a chance to succeed in hell even in 8 ppl game.
Rares were the best items. You were able to find or gamble good items already in normal and nightmare. For weapons you were able to find good ones in nightmare or get some good in normal and nightmare imbues.
No immunes. This was one of the best part of the game. There was no class that could get stuck somewhere. Stoneskin nowadays many times comes with manaburn in hell,, yeah try that with barb with berserk. Ok some classes got more variation in their builds, but synergies wrecked that again since you don't have enough points to get 2 good damaging trees anymore and even if u get 2 ok dmg trees there still can be immunes for 2.
Besides the immunes are so unfair for many classes. There are shitloads of PI monsters in maggot lair for example, well barb can get trough them with leap and ww.. but whatabout druid or assasin that focuses on physical damage.. Magic immunes, therse are only in act2 and a few in act3. So necros and hammerdins have no problems. Then elemental immunes gg sorcs have these in every god damn area of the game.
One of the best parts of pre-lod was that even new players had a good chance to do well in hell. Now you need to farm endless hours of nm meph or baal to get gear before you can go to hell and still if you are a physical class you don't have good enough damage to kill monsters efficiently. Another stupid thing is that many times you are forced to make separate mf char that can kill fast these bosses. Pre-lod you found rares everywhere, bosses dropped good loot once you did the quest but many times you got better items elsewhere.
I agree completely. Just started d2 again couple weeks ago and my sorc is now lvl 86 and easily gets killed in act 1 hell and cant kill shit by herself. resistance this or that, i tried to make her balanced which didnt help at all. she has lots of mf gear and ive done probobly close to +100 hell mode baal runs and not finding any worthwhile items.
Back in the day, the good ol days, I wanted to play more because I could hold my own, items dropped that actually had potent use for my characters, and i could play solo on bnet if I didnt want to do baal runs or cow lvls over and over and over....and over again.
for doing atleast 100 baal runs i should have something to show for it, and i should be able to kill efficiently in hell mode. lvl 86 sorc that can hardly kill the lesser monsters by herself in hell mode with fire and frozen orb maxed + some in lightning and masterys as well. I never woulda dreamed of this.
...I remember my old necro, barb, sorcs, zons etc. used to cause some real damage at lower levels, without the need of 8 players in a game on a team, with better chances of getting good items without the need to do meph/baal runs. The replayability was so much greater. Couldnt get me away from playing those days. Not even death could save me from diablo....u remember. I was really excited to put in lod again and play and now im sort of disgusted and couldnt believe how boring it is now. I dont remember it being anything like this at all.... Didnt imagine id be sick of playing after only just starting again first time in years with all the hype inside of me from watching d3 trailers.
Yeah I started lod javazon in this ladder.. I made her hybrid with lightning and plague jave.. well guess what plague is maxed now and she doesnt even kill nightmare Worldstonekeep lightning immunes fast with the javelin.. wtf if I can't kill there fast should I go hell where there are even more lightning immunes? Hell no. She has like +6 at least to javelin skills I wonder how much u need to kill something with a reasonable pace.
So at level 70 I quit her.. I know she isn't even close good enough for hell.
Went to play classic again. Every now and then I make a LOD char and I always have to quit them at some point because of the lack of items. Last was 83 level claw assasin that I soloed to hell a5 (except CS) I even had 2x bartucs but she could hardly kill anything there.. or it was very slow at least. One of the most suckiest thing about LOD is that you need to make a frikin MF char to get something decent gear on. I wouldn't wanna run durance of hate with an assasin or javazon.. or thinking about killing the bosses with javazon.. nm baal was already too tough for my java since the melee damage pretty much sucks.
Well playing classic barb has been nice again even tho barb isn't close to as good as before 1.10. They go nicely untill hell act4 where suddenly monster hp's go up a lot. I've been exping with quite a slow pace since killing isn't that fast in river of flame.. but at least it is possible. Physical immunes kinda bug me and I guess I'll put next skill point to berserk so I can finish those .. I have a nice battle hammer with 30% ias so that would be perfect for dealing with those.
Also the fact with immunes: How many really build the character in a way that they can just kill every mob these days? They rather build them to kill monsters that are not immune with great speed and just skip the immunes.. so the immunes are just one big pain in the ass and many don't bother with them
you just dont no how to build hybrids or Have friends too help yah out. thats why noobs like you that dont no nothing about d2 need to find a party too kill.
So what you said here is that, he doesn't know how to get friends to help him, and if he gets in a party to kill something hes a noob?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am not a fan of Jazz music.
on a good day.... Optimistic and freedom-loving Jovial
and good-humored Honest and straightforward
Intellectual and philosophical
On a bad day.... Blindly optimistic and careless
Irresponsible and superficial Tactless and restless
There's your problem... You don't know squat about the game it would appear...
Well, really, I am going to tell you something:
a fan of a game who have played it for ages would know more about it than a non-fan. End of story. I am not a fan, and I did not play it for ages, so please tell me why should I know everything about the game when I just started playing it? :confused: I do my experiments. 3-socketed topazed bows are best because my main character usually doesn't use lighting. And all my sockets are always better than anything I ever found. My whole chars are usually full of socketed stuff.
Quote from "Arbedark" »
Hell, finding a Goldstrike Arch is one of the easier things to get in D2...and that would easily work for a Rogue merc...
First of all, I don't understand the term "easy to find". You either find it or you never do, tehre is no "easy" or "hard" here. Second of all, I never ever found that item. If it's a hell-only item I only visited hell twice and later I never went back to it because it was boring as hell (no pun intended). Items should be present in Nightmare as well.
Quote from "Arbedark" »
Yeah, lots of + poison damage here...and NO useful mods like IAS, ED, or anything...:rolleyes:
I don't even know what IAS, ED is. I only know my real DII terms.
All Jewels I found were utter rubbish, too. I don't think you ever get anything good in Normal-Nightmare. The one time I got something good is when I was playing some crazy sword-and-shield Amazon, and that's only because the drops were not configured against me since the devs did not predict a sword-wielding zon.
I take the point mentioned previously that pre LOD there was a realistic chance of success in Hell.
I never played Hell pre-LOD so I wouldn't know, but looking at the version change logs and so on for pre LOD and for LOD I can see the problem.
I do hope Hell in D3 will be very difficult, don't get me wrong.
Lets suppose that we do have monsters with multiple immunes in D3.
To use a D2 Sorceress example, if I'm up against a fire and cold immune (which is very common in D2 hell) then I'd like for there to be a cunning and realistic work around involving gear, a hireling or a pet in order for me to succeed, albeit slowly.
Likewise physical immunes and the barb.
I don't want to spend many days of playing time levelling up through normal and NM to get to Hell and realise my character is unplayable.
If a player is dieing over and over again in hell, or just not able to defeat a certain monster then it begs the question: said player is obviously competent and has mastered the ropes or else normal and NM wouldn't have been beaten. So it's not the players fault. Something else is to blame.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
So we've got over the problem of colour in D3. Great. Now let's argue about everything else not yet set in stone and help make this game simply great! Game on.
I don't want to spend many days of playing time levelling up through normal and NM to get to Hell and realise my character is unplayable.
If a player is dieing over and over again in hell, or just not able to defeat a certain monster then it begs the question: said player is obviously competent and has mastered the ropes or else normal and NM wouldn't have been beaten. So it's not the players fault. Something else is to blame.
Getting to hell isn't hard, it shows no mastery of the game at all. A crappy built character can make it. I don't want every character to be able to beat the whole game regardless of the build and items.
Getting to hell isn't hard, it shows no mastery of the game at all. A crappy built character can make it. I don't want every character to be able to beat the whole game regardless of the build and items.
yeah but my lvl 86 sorc who did atleast 100 hell baal runs cant kill efficiently at all in even act 1 of hell.
and thats with maxed out skills and atleast +7 to skills items
Lets suppose that we do have monsters with multiple immunes in D3.
To use a D2 Sorceress example, if I'm up against a fire and cold immune (which is very common in D2 hell) then I'd like for there to be a cunning and realistic work around involving gear, a hireling or a pet in order for me to succeed, albeit slowly.
Likewise physical immunes and the barb
Well in D2 you could use the runeword Infinity on a merc which gives the Conviction aura and remove immunes, but it's kind of hard to get.
I agree with you, there should be a way to get through this without the need of spending countless hours doing runs and/or trades. That's one of the reason I'm saying D3 should be base more on skills (that his the player's own experience) instead of simply having a godly gear which was probably duped anyway.
Quote from "Mastertim" »
Getting to hell isn't hard, it shows no mastery of the game at all. A crappy built character can make it. I don't want every character to be able to beat the whole game regardless of the build and items.
I agree, normal and nightmare were way too easy. Every build shoudn't be able to get through hell but there should be at least one that doesn't require you insane gear to get through it.
The need of having a Godly gear should only be just for special bosses like the ubers or something like that
The problem with DII is that it doesn't take Normal srsly. You cannot be satisfied with finishing Normal because you don't get to improve your level 30 skills all that much. You HAVE to go into Nightmare to play most. But Nightmare already is pretty crooked.
Bonemancer is probably the easiest class I ever played. His attacks are not blocked by anybody.
A lot of skills? What do you mean by that.
I mean that while fighting enemies/bosses you should do more than just attack them directly and drink potions until they die.
I'm more than happy about the direction Blizz has been taking so far with D3
I expect to have to be strategic and to really think about how I'll overcome monsters and not just go around swinging my sword. I expect the penalties for failing to be severe. I expect that boss/quest monsters will not be easy kills and I may need to use a specific equipment build or skill combination.
But going back to my example in the original post, I would need to completely reallocate skill points by moving some into the elemental tree. That tree sucks - but that's my opinion - and then my maxed out bear and etc might suffer. It's like asking a Sorceress to abandon fire and go for lightning. It shouldn't be necessary.
And it's impossible to respec in D2 anyway.
I could also hunt down some gear that would go a long way in removing the (I think) 140% cold resistance to below 100% and so on. My character hasn't found any gear like that. I don't want to go back to Nightmare and troll for gear.
Yes, I have the gear in my mules from other characters and using a second computer and a second copy of D2 I can.... but my point is that we shouldn't need to do that.
And I should have a free choice to solo.
I have uber bonemancers for these situations as we all know about bone skills versus elemental and physical immunes.
But the players who can call up a buddy with a bonemancer (actually I got someone to play my uber bonemancer on a home network) are few and far between. And that's just not fair.
Every class and almost every build had a chance to succeed in hell even in 8 ppl game.
Rares were the best items. You were able to find or gamble good items already in normal and nightmare. For weapons you were able to find good ones in nightmare or get some good in normal and nightmare imbues.
No immunes. This was one of the best part of the game. There was no class that could get stuck somewhere. Stoneskin nowadays many times comes with manaburn in hell,, yeah try that with barb with berserk. Ok some classes got more variation in their builds, but synergies wrecked that again since you don't have enough points to get 2 good damaging trees anymore and even if u get 2 ok dmg trees there still can be immunes for 2.
Besides the immunes are so unfair for many classes. There are shitloads of PI monsters in maggot lair for example, well barb can get trough them with leap and ww.. but whatabout druid or assasin that focuses on physical damage.. Magic immunes, therse are only in act2 and a few in act3. So necros and hammerdins have no problems. Then elemental immunes gg sorcs have these in every god damn area of the game.
One of the best parts of pre-lod was that even new players had a good chance to do well in hell. Now you need to farm endless hours of nm meph or baal to get gear before you can go to hell and still if you are a physical class you don't have good enough damage to kill monsters efficiently. Another stupid thing is that many times you are forced to make separate mf char that can kill fast these bosses. Pre-lod you found rares everywhere, bosses dropped good loot once you did the quest but many times you got better items elsewhere.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Back in the day, the good ol days, I wanted to play more because I could hold my own, items dropped that actually had potent use for my characters, and i could play solo on bnet if I didnt want to do baal runs or cow lvls over and over and over....and over again.
for doing atleast 100 baal runs i should have something to show for it, and i should be able to kill efficiently in hell mode. lvl 86 sorc that can hardly kill the lesser monsters by herself in hell mode with fire and frozen orb maxed + some in lightning and masterys as well. I never woulda dreamed of this.
...I remember my old necro, barb, sorcs, zons etc. used to cause some real damage at lower levels, without the need of 8 players in a game on a team, with better chances of getting good items without the need to do meph/baal runs. The replayability was so much greater. Couldnt get me away from playing those days. Not even death could save me from diablo....u remember. I was really excited to put in lod again and play and now im sort of disgusted and couldnt believe how boring it is now. I dont remember it being anything like this at all.... Didnt imagine id be sick of playing after only just starting again first time in years with all the hype inside of me from watching d3 trailers.
So at level 70 I quit her.. I know she isn't even close good enough for hell.
Went to play classic again. Every now and then I make a LOD char and I always have to quit them at some point because of the lack of items. Last was 83 level claw assasin that I soloed to hell a5 (except CS) I even had 2x bartucs but she could hardly kill anything there.. or it was very slow at least. One of the most suckiest thing about LOD is that you need to make a frikin MF char to get something decent gear on. I wouldn't wanna run durance of hate with an assasin or javazon.. or thinking about killing the bosses with javazon.. nm baal was already too tough for my java since the melee damage pretty much sucks.
Well playing classic barb has been nice again even tho barb isn't close to as good as before 1.10. They go nicely untill hell act4 where suddenly monster hp's go up a lot. I've been exping with quite a slow pace since killing isn't that fast in river of flame.. but at least it is possible. Physical immunes kinda bug me and I guess I'll put next skill point to berserk so I can finish those .. I have a nice battle hammer with 30% ias so that would be perfect for dealing with those.
Also the fact with immunes: How many really build the character in a way that they can just kill every mob these days? They rather build them to kill monsters that are not immune with great speed and just skip the immunes.. so the immunes are just one big pain in the ass and many don't bother with them
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
So what you said here is that, he doesn't know how to get friends to help him, and if he gets in a party to kill something hes a noob?
a fan of a game who have played it for ages would know more about it than a non-fan. End of story. I am not a fan, and I did not play it for ages, so please tell me why should I know everything about the game when I just started playing it? :confused: I do my experiments. 3-socketed topazed bows are best because my main character usually doesn't use lighting. And all my sockets are always better than anything I ever found. My whole chars are usually full of socketed stuff.
First of all, I don't understand the term "easy to find". You either find it or you never do, tehre is no "easy" or "hard" here. Second of all, I never ever found that item. If it's a hell-only item I only visited hell twice and later I never went back to it because it was boring as hell (no pun intended). Items should be present in Nightmare as well.
I don't even know what IAS, ED is. I only know my real DII terms.
Increase Attack Speed
Enhance Damage
15IAS/40ED JEWEL!!
I never played Hell pre-LOD so I wouldn't know, but looking at the version change logs and so on for pre LOD and for LOD I can see the problem.
I do hope Hell in D3 will be very difficult, don't get me wrong.
Lets suppose that we do have monsters with multiple immunes in D3.
To use a D2 Sorceress example, if I'm up against a fire and cold immune (which is very common in D2 hell) then I'd like for there to be a cunning and realistic work around involving gear, a hireling or a pet in order for me to succeed, albeit slowly.
Likewise physical immunes and the barb.
I don't want to spend many days of playing time levelling up through normal and NM to get to Hell and realise my character is unplayable.
If a player is dieing over and over again in hell, or just not able to defeat a certain monster then it begs the question: said player is obviously competent and has mastered the ropes or else normal and NM wouldn't have been beaten. So it's not the players fault. Something else is to blame.
Getting to hell isn't hard, it shows no mastery of the game at all. A crappy built character can make it. I don't want every character to be able to beat the whole game regardless of the build and items.
yeah but my lvl 86 sorc who did atleast 100 hell baal runs cant kill efficiently at all in even act 1 of hell.
and thats with maxed out skills and atleast +7 to skills items
Well in D2 you could use the runeword Infinity on a merc which gives the Conviction aura and remove immunes, but it's kind of hard to get.
I agree with you, there should be a way to get through this without the need of spending countless hours doing runs and/or trades. That's one of the reason I'm saying D3 should be base more on skills (that his the player's own experience) instead of simply having a godly gear which was probably duped anyway.
I agree, normal and nightmare were way too easy. Every build shoudn't be able to get through hell but there should be at least one that doesn't require you insane gear to get through it.
The need of having a Godly gear should only be just for special bosses like the ubers or something like that