The problem with separating skill effects for PvE and PvP is that it creates confusion, especially for the players that won't PvP very often and therefore won't get used to the PvP specific effects. It is much easier for most players to learn how the skills work if they have near identical effects in PvE. With that said they are not turning their backs to PvP balance completely. Both cooldowns and crowd control durations are adjusted for PvP, but not damage and the basic function of the skill.
The only thing that makes me a little sad is that they won't support additional PvP modes. I would love to play some Capture the Flag and King of the Hill, but that won't be possible. When the goal is not simply to kill the opponent there are some significant advantages to playing certain classes/builds. I hope that they will come up with some game modes that are balanced enough to be included in the future, even if none of them are of the conventional type we are used to.
Ughhhhhhh I hate games that are so focused on casuals
let them god damn learn the game instead of simplifying everything
how stupid does blizzard think our gaming generation is? I'm guessing 80IQ> average
Alright bud you need to calm down and understand that almost the entire player base IS casual when compared to the hardcore'rs. like Ophium said it IS way too much confusion, and this IS a video game. Pretend you are Blizz, well you want to make money. Create an extremely complicated game focused to say ~10% of a player base compared to your other games, or create one that panders towards the other 90? Straightforward question i know, but some people still get it wrong.
Judging from my experience with Blizzard games (since diablo 1 and on), there has been 1 dominant trend that has really held back their overall enjoyment and, in my opinion, done a huge disservice to their fan community. That trend is the war between "PvP" and "PvE." Let me preface this by stating that I am an avid PvPer, and that is what I play Blizzard titles for. But before marginalizing me as another elitist PvPers who only cares about razor edge balance and maximum e-peen, I'll also say that I do enjoy PvE (or PvM for d2ers), especially in Diablo 2. Without PvM it would just suck, pure and simple. The game acquires it's flavor from a great mix of PvM and PvP.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
Would it really be that difficult to design a portion of the game for avid PvPers, and a portion of the game for avid PvMers? Wouldn't that add to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone? I understand that there are concerns. For example balance changes for PvP in World of Warcraft affecting PvE, or vice-versa. But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. For the above dilemma, simply adding different effects for abilities in PvE and PvP would be a simple design decision.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're all interested in the same thing here. We all want the absolute best all-around game possible. Of course there are aspects of the game that are more important for each of us, and that is probably why PvPers are so upset right now because, let's be honest, the most recent info is less than promising. So instead of fighting each other, let's work together and brainstorm some ideas so that PvM and PvP can coincide and formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
We can't have the best of both worlds yet because if we do, that will add another 1-2 years of iteration, balancing, etc. I already waited so long for this game so I just want it to come out as soon as possible. I am also a pvper but I don't want to sacrifice its release date just for it because this is something that can be added while we're still trying to reach end game. If the community asks for it I'm sure blizzard will deliver like they do in the past. Let's just have the co-op game for now because I really want my loots!!!
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I love all loot fest kind of game! I will be playing all of them for the next few years. Loot fest games I'm looking forward to: LotR: War in the North,Torchlight 2,Borderlands 2 and of course Diablo 3.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
If the Diablo 3 "PvP team" has one tenth as much design talent as the other developers I have a tremendous amount of confidence that PvP in Diablo III has the potential to be absolutely fantastic, while maintaining every bit of it's PvE integrity.
Having a team dedicated to pvp, along with different pvp only skills?? Pretty much goes against almost every game blizzard has made. They have stated time and time again, and it makes sense, you are wanting 2 completely different games; new skills, different balance and whatnot is splitting the game in half. Pretty much the whole reason right there.
There are so many straw man arguments it's absurd.
Allow me to refute 3 ridiculous arguments I just came across.
1.)
We can't have the best of both worlds yet because if we do, that will add another 1-2 years of iteration, balancing, etc. I already waited so long for this game so I just want it to come out as soon as possible. I am also a pvper but I don't want to sacrifice its release date just for it because this is something that can be added while we're still trying to reach end game. If the community asks for it I'm sure blizzard will deliver like they do in the past. Let's just have the co-op game for now because I really want my loots!!!
1-2 years to balance a game that hasn't even been released yet? Did you just completely pull this figure out of your ass? Balancing is an on-going process. There is virtually no one suggesting that the PvP meta game should be perfectly balanced at release, or EVER for that matter. We're simply asking for a system that is competitive and most importantly FUN. Straw man argument at it's finest, refuted.
2.)
Alright bud you need to calm down and understand that almost the entire player base IS casual when compared to the hardcore'rs. like Ophium said it IS way too much confusion, and this IS a video game. Pretend you are Blizz, well you want to make money. Create an extremely complicated game focused to say ~10% of a player base compared to your other games, or create one that panders towards the other 90? Straightforward question i know, but some people still get it wrong.
Are you honestly equating the term "casual" to "unintelligent," because that's exactly what it sounds like. Just because a player may play the game less, and therefore classify themselves as "casual," doesn't necessarily mean their IQ and therefore understanding of game mechanics will suffer. Even with a PvP system with SOME separate abilities (this may be necessary for some abilities, i.e. long stuns, disorients etc.) I highly doubt the average player will have that much difficulty learning the system. And the great thing is, if they do, they aren't being forced to participate! But saying that because some people may not be able to understand the PvP system, and therefore it shouldn't exist for ANYONE to enjoy, is absolutely ignorant and ludicrous logic, and frankly extremely inconsiderate and disrespectful to folks who would enjoy a decent PvP system.
3.)
Exactly, this is a PVM game almost pure and simple. You should be happy they even implemented an arena style. Now sure i do love pvp but i understand im buying and playing this game to kill monsters with my buddies.
That's wonderful that you are happy that this game is primarily PvM driven. That's fantastic, and if you bothered to read any of this thread, you'd realize that most people in support of a respectable PvP system actually appreciate and accept that Diablo is a primarily PvE game. The fact of the matter is - developing a respectable PvP system would not require near the time investment that PvE content would. The argument that "this is a PvE game, and therefore should be completely void of any meaningful PvP" is completely extremist and irrational. There is absolutely no reason that we can't have a great PvM AND PvP system, whether it's developed in the future or by release. Anything less is a huge disservice to what this game could be.
Having a team dedicated to pvp, along with different pvp only skills?? Pretty much goes against almost every game blizzard has made. They have stated time and time again, and it makes sense, you are wanting 2 completely different games; new skills, different balance and whatnot is splitting the game in half. Pretty much the whole reason right there.
If you had any clue about what the developers have already said about the game at this point, you'd realize how ignorant your post is. Jay Wilson has already stated that there is a "PvP team" and that there is already a system in place that has the capability to separate PvE and PvP skills (if necessary). Furthermore, altering skills for PvP from their PvE counterparts would be more of a tweak rather than having completely new skills. Obviously this wouldn't be required for every ability in the game, only a select minority that would cause huge balance issues, i.e. long stuns, massive aoe, crowd control, etc. The statement "you are wanting 2 completely different games" is completely irrational. We're asking for some tweaking of certain abilities that may cause problems in PvP, not each ability being completely different. Please keep your hyperbole in check.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
There are so many straw man arguments it's absurd.
Allow me to refute 3 ridiculous arguments I just came across.
1.)
We can't have the best of both worlds yet because if we do, that will add another 1-2 years of iteration, balancing, etc. I already waited so long for this game so I just want it to come out as soon as possible. I am also a pvper but I don't want to sacrifice its release date just for it because this is something that can be added while we're still trying to reach end game. If the community asks for it I'm sure blizzard will deliver like they do in the past. Let's just have the co-op game for now because I really want my loots!!!
Did you just completely pull this figure out of your ass? Balancing is an on-going process. There is virtually no one suggesting that the PvP meta game should be perfectly balanced at release, or EVER for that matter. We're simply asking for a system that is competitive and most importantly FUN. Straw man argument at it's finest, refuted.
No I sneezed so it came out of my nose. I am not even trying to argue and you probably misunderstood my approach. So let me say it simply, let blizzard do their magic and finish the game they intended to. Time and time again they proved that they listen (although not every time) and we will voice out that we like options rather than deserting a portion of their fanbase but for now I just want the game to come out.
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I love all loot fest kind of game! I will be playing all of them for the next few years. Loot fest games I'm looking forward to: LotR: War in the North,Torchlight 2,Borderlands 2 and of course Diablo 3.
The dev team of Diablo 3 did not make a game with a strong PVP support, just as they did not magically make Diablo 3 an RTS or MMO or FPS.
This is not your game to make, and while the input of fans has probably driven a lot of content toward the place it is today, it is no more than input that the dev team considered, and decided whether or not it fit into their game. Think of it like that one kid's toy: Diablo is a square hole, and they put in all the square blocks they needed, and left out all of the circles, hexagons, and stars.
I know many of you hope the PVP game can be stronger someday, and maybe it will.
Really, though. Blizzard did not make an RPG with a strong PVP engine. It is just the same as their decision to not give the Barbarian a minigun, or their decision to not give the Wizard the power to one-shot a boss, or their decision to not make Diablo a woman who was just a man on the inside all this time... Circle blocks. Square hole.
Some day when you have the power to make a game just how you want it, you can include all the PVP content you want. Because that's the only time you will ever be able to decide on which shape of hole you want to start putting blocks through.
In conclusion: if you wanted a heavy PVP engine and support from the development team, the reality is that Blizzard is not making your game. Luckily, there are plenty --PLENTY-- of other games that do have PVP content. There are PLENTY of other competitive games. Diablo 3 is not one of them, and that's by design. You might as well ask Nintendo to release a new Super Mario Bros. or Legend of Zelda with a proper competitive mode and PVP content. The game is not made for PVP. I suggest you all come to terms with it and enjoy the arena you've been given, and continue suggesting reasonable additions to it, but don't expect Blizzard to include a strong PVP mode that's balanced properly, because they're just not going to do it.
The dev team of Diablo 3 did not make a game with a strong PVP support, just as they did not magically make Diablo 3 an RTS or MMO or FPS.
This is not your game to make, and while the input of fans has probably driven a lot of content toward the place it is today, it is no more than input that the dev team considered, and decided whether or not it fit into their game. Think of it like that one kid's toy: Diablo is a square hole, and they put in all the square blocks they needed, and left out all of the circles, hexagons, and stars.
I know many of you hope the PVP game can be stronger someday, and maybe it will.
Really, though. Blizzard did not make an RPG with a strong PVP engine. It is just the same as their decision to not give the Barbarian a minigun, or their decision to not give the Wizard the power to one-shot a boss, or their decision to not make Diablo a woman who was just a man on the inside all this time... Circle blocks. Square hole.
Some day when you have the power to make a game just how you want it, you can include all the PVP content you want. Because that's the only time you will ever be able to decide on which shape of hole you want to start putting blocks through.
In conclusion: if you wanted a heavy PVP engine and support from the development team, the reality is that Blizzard is not making your game. Luckily, there are plenty --PLENTY-- of other games that do have PVP content. There are PLENTY of other competitive games. Diablo 3 is not one of them, and that's by design. You might as well ask Nintendo to release a new Super Mario Bros. or Legend of Zelda with a proper competitive mode and PVP content. The game is not made for PVP. I suggest you all come to terms with it and enjoy the arena you've been given, and continue suggesting reasonable additions to it, but don't expect Blizzard to include a strong PVP mode that's balanced properly, because they're just not going to do it.
Who the hell are you to say what Blizzard intends or doesn't intend to do with this game? Jay Wilson (lead dev) has stated that he doesn't want to turn the game into an e-sport, and most of us are COMPLETELY fine with that. But taking that to the absolute extreme and saying that this game should have NO respectable form of PvP is COMPLETELY extremist, irrational, and frankly ignorant logic.
The engine is in place for PvP, please stop saying it's not possible because they didn't develop a "PvP engine." That makes no sense. The game engine runs PvP fine and we've seen it on videos on multiple occasions. That arguments simply makes no sense.
Your last paragraph probably isn't even worth responding to, but I'll attempt at refuting this idiocy. Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Bros aren't even in the same galaxy as Diablo 2 or 3. First, they didn't have 2 predecessors that established a strong PvP community WITHOUT developmental support, and second they aren't multi player games, therefore competitive PvP would be impossible. Your arguments simply aren't based on any logic. I don't even know why I'm refuting them right now. Going to bed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Who the hell are you to say what Blizzard intends or doesn't intend to do with this game? Jay Wilson (lead dev) has stated that he doesn't want to turn the game into an e-sport, and most of us are COMPLETELY fine with that. But taking that to the absolute extreme and saying that this game should have NO respectable form of PvP is COMPLETELY extremist, irrational, and frankly ignorant logic.
You answered yourself, but in a weird way. Jay Wilson decided to not make PvP a thing. It doesn't matter who I think I am. But you basically just said, "Jay Wilson said this, and that's fine, but Jay Wilson said this, and that's not fine."
The engine is in place for PvP, please stop saying it's not possible because they didn't develop a "PvP engine." That makes no sense. The game engine runs PvP fine and we've seen it on videos on multiple occasions. That arguments simply makes no sense.
Sure it's in place, but they have said they're not going to include it in the game. The engine is capable of a lot of things that're not going to be in the game. I'm using the term "does not have the engine in place" to show that they are not including that functionality in the game, though I admit that was careless terminology.
Your last paragraph probably isn't even worth responding to, but I'll attempt at refuting this idiocy. Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Bros aren't even in the same galaxy as Diablo 2 or 3. First, they didn't have 2 predecessors that established a strong PvP community WITHOUT developmental support, and second they aren't multi player games, therefore competitive PvP would be impossible. Your arguments simply aren't based on any logic. I don't even know why I'm refuting them right now. Going to bed.
It doesn't matter what Diablo and Diablo 2 were, because this is Diablo 3, and Diablo 3 is whatever the dev team says Diablo 3 is, and they said it's a PvE-centric adventure RPG. I think Mario Bros. and Zelda are perfectly reasonable comparisons here, because they, like Diablo 3, are not designed for PvP or competition, so asking for design to support PvP and competition is silly.
You answered yourself, but in a weird way. Jay Wilson decided to not make PvP a thing. It doesn't matter who I think I am. But you basically just said, "Jay Wilson said this, and that's fine, but Jay Wilson said this, and that's not fine."
No, I was actually posting the one concrete quotation that we have about what the developers are thinking regarding design decisions for Diablo 3. Jay Wilson doesn't want to turn this into an E-sport. That's fine and understandable. There's an enormous amount of middle ground between what we have now (TDM) and Diablo 3 becoming an E-Sport. My point is that it would be worthwhile for the game to implement some form of respectable PvP that would add infinite replay value and bring in a wider player base, while being exponentially positive from a time spent developing per rewards reaped basis.
THEIR ARE OVER A TRILLION DIFFERENT BUILDS PER CLASS IN THIS GAME.
HOW THE FUCK WOULD THAT BE BALANCED?
It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced. Have you read ANYTHING we've posted??????????
READ MY COMMENT. STOP MAKING RIDICULOUS STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS. Competitive, FUN PvP doesn't HAVE to be an E-Sport!!!!!!
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
It's quite simple. They WON'T do that because it would take A LOT of time to balance the game for PVP. It is NOT only about damage, effect durations and other easily modifiable features. It is about EVERYTHING since number of area skills per character, number of focused skills with and without effects per character, dependability on equipment, performance in a group, the way skills overlap, the way skills do not overlap, and so on.
The game is very difficult to be balanced in the Blizzard quality degree. The DO NOT want to make something highly crappy so people will rage about how unbalanced PVP is (watch for just a little time how SC2 players complain about balancing even with the game being very much balanced and worked on that for years and years).
So, they release a PVP arena to make people happy, but they WON'T take the time to focus on it because its complexity would be comparable to a WHOLE NEW GAME. Why is that so hard to understand?
Diablo has never been about PVP and it was only that good at PVE because they focus all their strengths on improving PVE. If they share that strengths with PVP, it may not be as good on neither.
The problem with separating skill effects for PvE and PvP is that it creates confusion, especially for the players that won't PvP very often and therefore won't get used to the PvP specific effects. It is much easier for most players to learn how the skills work if they have near identical effects in PvE. With that said they are not turning their backs to PvP balance completely. Both cooldowns and crowd control durations are adjusted for PvP, but not damage and the basic function of the skill.
The only thing that makes me a little sad is that they won't support additional PvP modes. I would love to play some Capture the Flag and King of the Hill, but that won't be possible. When the goal is not simply to kill the opponent there are some significant advantages to playing certain classes/builds. I hope that they will come up with some game modes that are balanced enough to be included in the future, even if none of them are of the conventional type we are used to.
Ughhhhhhh I hate games that are so focused on casuals
let them god damn learn the game instead of simplifying everything
how stupid does blizzard think our gaming generation is? I'm guessing 80IQ> average
I just don't buy the argument that it will take too much time to balance PvP. If there truly is a "PvP team," (it has been stated by the lead dev. that this team exists) please explain what they are being paid for if not balancing abilities and maintaining a ladder system.
Most supporters of a respectable PvP system from Diablo 3 aren't advocating perfect razor edge balance, only slight tweaks to blatantly overpowered abilities. The funny thing is, this will probably be done regardless, because it's just good business to fix glaring imbalances in a great game. I imagine many imbalances will also overlap between PvE and PvP, i.e. a blatant imbalance in PvP would coincide with a imbalance in PvE, although obviously this wouldn't be the case all the time.
It simply doesn't make sense that we can't have the best of both worlds from this game. This absolutist mentality that completely rejects any form of competitive PvP because "that's just the way the game is" is simply illogical because we've already seen what Blizzard can do in LMS videos, and we know from developer interviews that the systems are in place to make it happen.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
There is no such thing as a PVP team as of now, if there is they are not big enough, and hire more developers would cost more and make the software process a lot more complex and lenghty. This dilbert strip illustrate the way you might be thinking software development works:
Also, PVP balance would clash with PVE balance in everything, making every balance more difficult and costy. They made a clear decision that they would aim for the best PVE action game they could make instead of making an OK PVP and PVE game with the resources they have.
And they never said they would turn their back on PVP, they will make some balances if it's a clear issue and don't hurt PVE, but they clearly said that's not the focus, so every balance decision when they have to choose between PVE and PVP, they will blindly choose PVE, so no one should expect a PVP balance worthy of an e-sports game.
There is no such thing as a PVP team as of now, if there is they are not big enough, and hire more developers would cost more and make the software process a lot more complex and lenghty. This dilbert strip illustrate the way you might be thinking software development works:
Also, PVP balance would clash with PVE balance in everything, making every balance more difficult and costy. They made a clear decision that they would aim for the best PVE action game they could make instead of making an OK PVP and PVE game with the resources they have.
And they never said they would turn their back on PVP, they will make some balances if it's a clear issue and don't hurt PVE, but they clearly said that's not the focus, so every balance decision when they have to choose between PVE and PVP, they will blindly choose PVE, so no one should expect a PVP balance worthy of an e-sports game.
Virtually everything you've stated here is false. Jay Wilson has stated that there is, in fact, a "PvP team" and that there is a system in place for relegating certain abilities to PvP and PvE, thus having no effect on each other. I suggest you do your research and watch this interview:
Virtually everything you've stated here is false. Jay Wilson has stated that there is, in fact, a "PvP team" and that there is a system in place for relegating certain abilities to PvP and PvE, thus having no effect on each other. I suggest you do your research and watch this interview:
And you have failed to see my point that these abilities that have no effect on PVE WILL BE balanced, but balancing PVP is far more complex than that, and you are not asking for "some" balancing, you are asking for the "best of both worlds". Which clearly they would do if they could, but as they can't, they focus on PVE because that's the Diablo's franchise focus. There are many other titles that don't do that and obviously don't get a so good PVE.
Virtually everything you've stated here is false. Jay Wilson has stated that there is, in fact, a "PvP team" and that there is a system in place for relegating certain abilities to PvP and PvE, thus having no effect on each other. I suggest you do your research and watch this interview:
And you have failed to see my point that these abilities that have no effect on PVE WILL BE balanced, but balancing PVP is far more complex than that, and you are not asking for "some" balancing, you are asking for the "best of both worlds". Which clearly they would do if they could, but as they can't, they focus on PVE because that's the Diablo's franchise focus. There are many other titles that don't do that and obviously don't get a so good PVE.
If you cared to read one of my posts, even the OP, you'd realize "best of both worlds" refers to having a RESPECTABLE PvP system that doesn't interfere with PvE, not razor-edge PvP balance e-sport style, which is what you're apparently interpreting that phrase to mean.
It seems that the re-occuring argument against allowing SOME form of respectable PvP system in Diablo 3 is balance. I've addressed this concern multiple times, but apparently people can't take a couple of minutes to read.
1. There is already a system in place to tweak certain abilities that are blatantly imbalanced without affecting PvE, or vice versa.
2. Most rational players aren't advocating that Diablo 3 turn into an E-Sport with perfect balance requiring a massive time investment. We're only asking for some general support from a dedicated PvP team, basically for the "PvP team" to simply do their job, which would entail maintaining a competitive ladder and preforming slight balance tweaks to abilities that are ridiculously overpowered in a PvP format (this WILL be done anyways, even if TDM stays as the only form of PvP). Please don't tell me a corporation like Blizzard doesn't have the resources to make this happen, because that's just utterly naive. If there truly is a PvP team, this should be their job, and if they can't handle it, HIRE MORE. Obviously it shouldn't delay the release of the game, but it should absolutely be actively in development and come at some point.
3. PvP should absolutely not "wag the tail" of PvE, but there IS some MIDDLE GROUND between having utter garbage zerg PvP and having perfect balance e-sports style. Stop with the absolutist mentality and let's have the best of both worlds.
I don't see how people can argue against that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I just don't buy the argument that it will take too much time to balance PvP. If there truly is a "PvP team," (it has been stated by the lead dev. that this team exists) please explain what they are being paid for if not balancing abilities and maintaining a ladder system.
Most supporters of a respectable PvP system from Diablo 3 aren't advocating perfect razor edge balance, only slight tweaks to blatantly overpowered abilities. The funny thing is, this will probably be done regardless, because it's just good business to fix glaring imbalances in a great game. I imagine many imbalances will also overlap between PvE and PvP, i.e. a blatant imbalance in PvP would coincide with a imbalance in PvE, although obviously this wouldn't be the case all the time.
It simply doesn't make sense that we can't have the best of both worlds from this game. This absolutist mentality that completely rejects any form of competitive PvP because "that's just the way the game is" is simply illogical because we've already seen what Blizzard can do in LMS videos, and we know from developer interviews that the systems are in place to make it happen.
Have you ever played a game called WoW? If not let me give you the short version, after 6 years they still haven't balanced PvP and PvE together. Although Blizzard has "tweaked" some abilities to have PvP only stats (this is what pro PvP balance people want) in recent years, its sill far from being balanced in either realm. I like the tweaked approach, I'd like to ASSUME this is an easy method but I'm not a game developer/programmer so I can't say.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
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Alright bud you need to calm down and understand that almost the entire player base IS casual when compared to the hardcore'rs. like Ophium said it IS way too much confusion, and this IS a video game. Pretend you are Blizz, well you want to make money. Create an extremely complicated game focused to say ~10% of a player base compared to your other games, or create one that panders towards the other 90? Straightforward question i know, but some people still get it wrong.
We can't have the best of both worlds yet because if we do, that will add another 1-2 years of iteration, balancing, etc. I already waited so long for this game so I just want it to come out as soon as possible. I am also a pvper but I don't want to sacrifice its release date just for it because this is something that can be added while we're still trying to reach end game. If the community asks for it I'm sure blizzard will deliver like they do in the past. Let's just have the co-op game for now because I really want my loots!!!
Having a team dedicated to pvp, along with different pvp only skills?? Pretty much goes against almost every game blizzard has made. They have stated time and time again, and it makes sense, you are wanting 2 completely different games; new skills, different balance and whatnot is splitting the game in half. Pretty much the whole reason right there.
Allow me to refute 3 ridiculous arguments I just came across.
1.) 1-2 years to balance a game that hasn't even been released yet? Did you just completely pull this figure out of your ass? Balancing is an on-going process. There is virtually no one suggesting that the PvP meta game should be perfectly balanced at release, or EVER for that matter. We're simply asking for a system that is competitive and most importantly FUN. Straw man argument at it's finest, refuted.
2.)
Are you honestly equating the term "casual" to "unintelligent," because that's exactly what it sounds like. Just because a player may play the game less, and therefore classify themselves as "casual," doesn't necessarily mean their IQ and therefore understanding of game mechanics will suffer. Even with a PvP system with SOME separate abilities (this may be necessary for some abilities, i.e. long stuns, disorients etc.) I highly doubt the average player will have that much difficulty learning the system. And the great thing is, if they do, they aren't being forced to participate! But saying that because some people may not be able to understand the PvP system, and therefore it shouldn't exist for ANYONE to enjoy, is absolutely ignorant and ludicrous logic, and frankly extremely inconsiderate and disrespectful to folks who would enjoy a decent PvP system.
3.)
That's wonderful that you are happy that this game is primarily PvM driven. That's fantastic, and if you bothered to read any of this thread, you'd realize that most people in support of a respectable PvP system actually appreciate and accept that Diablo is a primarily PvE game. The fact of the matter is - developing a respectable PvP system would not require near the time investment that PvE content would. The argument that "this is a PvE game, and therefore should be completely void of any meaningful PvP" is completely extremist and irrational. There is absolutely no reason that we can't have a great PvM AND PvP system, whether it's developed in the future or by release. Anything less is a huge disservice to what this game could be.
If you had any clue about what the developers have already said about the game at this point, you'd realize how ignorant your post is. Jay Wilson has already stated that there is a "PvP team" and that there is already a system in place that has the capability to separate PvE and PvP skills (if necessary). Furthermore, altering skills for PvP from their PvE counterparts would be more of a tweak rather than having completely new skills. Obviously this wouldn't be required for every ability in the game, only a select minority that would cause huge balance issues, i.e. long stuns, massive aoe, crowd control, etc. The statement "you are wanting 2 completely different games" is completely irrational. We're asking for some tweaking of certain abilities that may cause problems in PvP, not each ability being completely different. Please keep your hyperbole in check.
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No I sneezed so it came out of my nose. I am not even trying to argue and you probably misunderstood my approach. So let me say it simply, let blizzard do their magic and finish the game they intended to. Time and time again they proved that they listen (although not every time) and we will voice out that we like options rather than deserting a portion of their fanbase but for now I just want the game to come out.
The dev team of Diablo 3 did not make a game with a strong PVP support, just as they did not magically make Diablo 3 an RTS or MMO or FPS.
This is not your game to make, and while the input of fans has probably driven a lot of content toward the place it is today, it is no more than input that the dev team considered, and decided whether or not it fit into their game. Think of it like that one kid's toy: Diablo is a square hole, and they put in all the square blocks they needed, and left out all of the circles, hexagons, and stars.
I know many of you hope the PVP game can be stronger someday, and maybe it will.
Really, though. Blizzard did not make an RPG with a strong PVP engine. It is just the same as their decision to not give the Barbarian a minigun, or their decision to not give the Wizard the power to one-shot a boss, or their decision to not make Diablo a woman who was just a man on the inside all this time... Circle blocks. Square hole.
Some day when you have the power to make a game just how you want it, you can include all the PVP content you want. Because that's the only time you will ever be able to decide on which shape of hole you want to start putting blocks through.
In conclusion: if you wanted a heavy PVP engine and support from the development team, the reality is that Blizzard is not making your game. Luckily, there are plenty --PLENTY-- of other games that do have PVP content. There are PLENTY of other competitive games. Diablo 3 is not one of them, and that's by design. You might as well ask Nintendo to release a new Super Mario Bros. or Legend of Zelda with a proper competitive mode and PVP content. The game is not made for PVP. I suggest you all come to terms with it and enjoy the arena you've been given, and continue suggesting reasonable additions to it, but don't expect Blizzard to include a strong PVP mode that's balanced properly, because they're just not going to do it.
Who the hell are you to say what Blizzard intends or doesn't intend to do with this game? Jay Wilson (lead dev) has stated that he doesn't want to turn the game into an e-sport, and most of us are COMPLETELY fine with that. But taking that to the absolute extreme and saying that this game should have NO respectable form of PvP is COMPLETELY extremist, irrational, and frankly ignorant logic.
The engine is in place for PvP, please stop saying it's not possible because they didn't develop a "PvP engine." That makes no sense. The game engine runs PvP fine and we've seen it on videos on multiple occasions. That arguments simply makes no sense.
Your last paragraph probably isn't even worth responding to, but I'll attempt at refuting this idiocy. Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Bros aren't even in the same galaxy as Diablo 2 or 3. First, they didn't have 2 predecessors that established a strong PvP community WITHOUT developmental support, and second they aren't multi player games, therefore competitive PvP would be impossible. Your arguments simply aren't based on any logic. I don't even know why I'm refuting them right now. Going to bed.
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Sure it's in place, but they have said they're not going to include it in the game. The engine is capable of a lot of things that're not going to be in the game. I'm using the term "does not have the engine in place" to show that they are not including that functionality in the game, though I admit that was careless terminology.
It doesn't matter what Diablo and Diablo 2 were, because this is Diablo 3, and Diablo 3 is whatever the dev team says Diablo 3 is, and they said it's a PvE-centric adventure RPG. I think Mario Bros. and Zelda are perfectly reasonable comparisons here, because they, like Diablo 3, are not designed for PvP or competition, so asking for design to support PvP and competition is silly.
HOW THE FUCK WOULD THAT BE BALANCED?
No, I was actually posting the one concrete quotation that we have about what the developers are thinking regarding design decisions for Diablo 3. Jay Wilson doesn't want to turn this into an E-sport. That's fine and understandable. There's an enormous amount of middle ground between what we have now (TDM) and Diablo 3 becoming an E-Sport. My point is that it would be worthwhile for the game to implement some form of respectable PvP that would add infinite replay value and bring in a wider player base, while being exponentially positive from a time spent developing per rewards reaped basis.
It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced. Have you read ANYTHING we've posted??????????
READ MY COMMENT. STOP MAKING RIDICULOUS STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS. Competitive, FUN PvP doesn't HAVE to be an E-Sport!!!!!!
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The game is very difficult to be balanced in the Blizzard quality degree. The DO NOT want to make something highly crappy so people will rage about how unbalanced PVP is (watch for just a little time how SC2 players complain about balancing even with the game being very much balanced and worked on that for years and years).
So, they release a PVP arena to make people happy, but they WON'T take the time to focus on it because its complexity would be comparable to a WHOLE NEW GAME. Why is that so hard to understand?
Diablo has never been about PVP and it was only that good at PVE because they focus all their strengths on improving PVE. If they share that strengths with PVP, it may not be as good on neither.
if you dont like it, don't buy it. Quit QQ'ing.
Most supporters of a respectable PvP system from Diablo 3 aren't advocating perfect razor edge balance, only slight tweaks to blatantly overpowered abilities. The funny thing is, this will probably be done regardless, because it's just good business to fix glaring imbalances in a great game. I imagine many imbalances will also overlap between PvE and PvP, i.e. a blatant imbalance in PvP would coincide with a imbalance in PvE, although obviously this wouldn't be the case all the time.
It simply doesn't make sense that we can't have the best of both worlds from this game. This absolutist mentality that completely rejects any form of competitive PvP because "that's just the way the game is" is simply illogical because we've already seen what Blizzard can do in LMS videos, and we know from developer interviews that the systems are in place to make it happen.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/two-eyes/1311069510/
Also, PVP balance would clash with PVE balance in everything, making every balance more difficult and costy. They made a clear decision that they would aim for the best PVE action game they could make instead of making an OK PVP and PVE game with the resources they have.
And they never said they would turn their back on PVP, they will make some balances if it's a clear issue and don't hurt PVE, but they clearly said that's not the focus, so every balance decision when they have to choose between PVE and PVP, they will blindly choose PVE, so no one should expect a PVP balance worthy of an e-sports game.
Virtually everything you've stated here is false. Jay Wilson has stated that there is, in fact, a "PvP team" and that there is a system in place for relegating certain abilities to PvP and PvE, thus having no effect on each other. I suggest you do your research and watch this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E452S_fJwA&feature=player_embedded
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And you have failed to see my point that these abilities that have no effect on PVE WILL BE balanced, but balancing PVP is far more complex than that, and you are not asking for "some" balancing, you are asking for the "best of both worlds". Which clearly they would do if they could, but as they can't, they focus on PVE because that's the Diablo's franchise focus. There are many other titles that don't do that and obviously don't get a so good PVE.
If you cared to read one of my posts, even the OP, you'd realize "best of both worlds" refers to having a RESPECTABLE PvP system that doesn't interfere with PvE, not razor-edge PvP balance e-sport style, which is what you're apparently interpreting that phrase to mean.
It seems that the re-occuring argument against allowing SOME form of respectable PvP system in Diablo 3 is balance. I've addressed this concern multiple times, but apparently people can't take a couple of minutes to read.
1. There is already a system in place to tweak certain abilities that are blatantly imbalanced without affecting PvE, or vice versa.
2. Most rational players aren't advocating that Diablo 3 turn into an E-Sport with perfect balance requiring a massive time investment. We're only asking for some general support from a dedicated PvP team, basically for the "PvP team" to simply do their job, which would entail maintaining a competitive ladder and preforming slight balance tweaks to abilities that are ridiculously overpowered in a PvP format (this WILL be done anyways, even if TDM stays as the only form of PvP). Please don't tell me a corporation like Blizzard doesn't have the resources to make this happen, because that's just utterly naive. If there truly is a PvP team, this should be their job, and if they can't handle it, HIRE MORE. Obviously it shouldn't delay the release of the game, but it should absolutely be actively in development and come at some point.
3. PvP should absolutely not "wag the tail" of PvE, but there IS some MIDDLE GROUND between having utter garbage zerg PvP and having perfect balance e-sports style. Stop with the absolutist mentality and let's have the best of both worlds.
I don't see how people can argue against that.
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Have you ever played a game called WoW? If not let me give you the short version, after 6 years they still haven't balanced PvP and PvE together. Although Blizzard has "tweaked" some abilities to have PvP only stats (this is what pro PvP balance people want) in recent years, its sill far from being balanced in either realm. I like the tweaked approach, I'd like to ASSUME this is an easy method but I'm not a game developer/programmer so I can't say.